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Author Topic: Tragic military accident  (Read 12674 times)

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December 04, 2018, 04:13:56 PM
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Star man

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Hi folks,

I am new to this forum and also to the Dyatlov pass incident.  I found a documentary covering the incident about a week ago and after watching it felt that even though this happened a very long time ago it wasn't right that the families and friends of the 9 hikers still didn't have a reasonable explanation for what had happened that night.  So I read the case files, autopsy reports, diaries, and analysed the photographs as well as watching several documentaries and radio interviews with researchers of the case.  Anyway after reading through most of the standard theories and trying to piece all the information together I found myself thinking that the scenario that seems to fit most of the facts was that this incident was a tragic military accident. I am sure that this is not the first time this has been proposed.  But this is what I think may have happened that night.

in the late 1950s early 1960s the US were developing and testing a new tactical nuclear weapon.  A low yield high radiation device commonly refered to as a Neutron Bomb.  It is likely that USSR were also developing and testing similar weapon types around that time.  These weapons are designed to stop advancing armies, killing people, whilst minimising damage to buildings and allowing an area to be quickly reoccupied afterwards.  If you wanted to test such a weapon somewhere you would probably look for a place that was very isolated, somewhere devoid of most animal and plant life, somewhere where nobody goes.  Kholat Syakhl "dead mountain" sounds like it would meet the criteria for such a test.  Even the Mansi didn't tend to go there.  The military would have probably checked that nobody had lodged a planned route that took them near the test site on the night of the test.  The Dyatlov group however had not followed their planned route and this was probably the decision that led them to their unfortunate deaths.

So on the 1st Feb 1959 the group had made camp.  At some point during the night they probably noticed military activity in the air space near their camp as aircraft flew around the test site preparing for the test of the weapons.  This may have been what prompted some of fhe group to grab their cameras go outside and start trying to snap some photographs.

When the test was started and the first neutron bomb was detonated there would have been an intense flash of thermal and ionising radiation.  Anyone within 500 metres of this detonation could have sustained 3rd degree burns to exposed skin and potential blindness if they had been staring at the heat flash.  A fire ball would begin to expand out from the point of detonation and this would be visible for miles as a glowing orange ball in the sky.  Some of the witnesses from other hiking groups claim seeing glowing orange orbs and these were 50km away from the Dyatlov group.  It's unlikely that normal ordinance would be visable as orange orbs from 50km but a detonation of a low yield (several kilo tonne ) device would create fire ball that was viable from a fair distance.

The heat flash would have been followed by a shock wave.  Now this shock wave would be capable of destroying normal civilian buildings up to About 600 metres away, but would probably not cause significant damage to people.  I suspect that if it was a neutron bomb that caused this incident than the Dyatlov group were somewhat further away that 600 metres ans may have been over 1km away. Anyone within 900 metres of the detonation would have received a significant lethal dose of radiation capable of killing them within 1 to 2 days. Those within 1600 metres would probably still have received a significant dose that could kill them within several weeks.  Those within 900 metres would start to feel ill, disorientated and confused fairly quickly.

After the shock wave there would have been the wind blast.  This would have been significant and capable of lifting People into the air throwing them a considerable distance.  If there were anyone outside the tent that night the wind blast could have knocked them flying and they could have sustained significant injuries, possible fatal.  The wind blast would likely flatten the tent and knock those inside around like someone shaking a bag of walnuts and this could have caused some minor injuries.  It would certainly have sparked panick and possible shock amongst the group initiating a frantic bid to escape the tent. So the group make it out of the tent in a state of panick and turn to witness a huge fire ball in the sky.  It is likely that following the first detonation there was a second and maybe a third and possibly more depending on the number of boms they were testing that night.  I'm not sure how many orange orbs were reported by the hikers from the other groups around the area.  If there were further detonations, it may have persuaded the group that staying at their camp site presented a significant and immediate threat to their lives and in a state of panic their made their way down the slope to put some distance between themselves and the nuclear detonations.  They may have even thought that ww3 had started.  It's also possible that they may have already been dead before they even left the tent having received a lethal dose of radiation.  They just didnt know it.  After making their way down the slope they are now faced with the next biggest threat to their lives.  The cold.  They get to the cedar tree and make a fire in an attempt to keep warm.  They also try to use the tree to see what is going on near their camp site.  After a short while some of the group start to succumb to the cold.  The surviving members try to use their clothes to keep warm and then three of the group decide to go back to the camp site and retrieve their cold weather gear, but they never make it.

It is likely that the military arrive at the site well before the search and rescue party.  They won't want details of their weapon tests becoming public knowledge so they interfere with the scene.  They may have also taken the bodies and performed their own examinations as this would present them with an opportunity to study the effects of their new weapon on the human body.  The bodies may have been altered, to remove parts for further study or any clues that the people had been exposed to these weapons. 

When the search party found the site it is,likely that the scene had already been tampered with, and some or all the bodies moved/returned to their original positions.  The ravine four may have been planted there.  If they had been outside the tent when the wind blast hit them they could have sustained the lethal injuries then.  It is also possible they did make the den in the ravine and were killed by a subsequent blast.  I think the key thing here is that if this was a military test and the military got to the scene first then you can't assume all of the details of the scene are accurate and reflect the true sequence of events.

Anyway that's a very quick summary of my thoughts.
 

December 04, 2018, 06:42:39 PM
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sarapuk

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Well some kind of military event is one of the much debated topics. It has been considered many times over the years that maybe it was a military accident and maybe involved Nuclear Weapons. I personally dont subscribe to this particular theory but it is still worth investigating. One problem with the theory is that when the search parties were searching the area for 2 months or so there were no reports that suggest that a military accident could have happened.
DB
 

December 05, 2018, 01:16:38 AM
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Nigel Evans


Yes my view is either natural electro magnetic phenomena or military accident (MA) with the former my favourite by some margin.
Some thoughts :-
1. They were only off course by 1km. I don't think they were lost so why they elected to leave the sanctuary of the forest for the higher ground in those weather conditions is part of the mystery.
2. The ravine four weren't killed by high explosives or nuclear. Both produce a supersonic blast wave that always bursts lungs which were not observed at the autopsies.
3. The indications are that the Soviet hierarchy did not understand the cause  :-
  • They maintained an approx 30 man strong investigation team on site, supplied by helicopter for months at huge expense. This included a KGB team. Some of the dead had worked in sensitive areas and defection was a concern. If they already knew what had happened they could have waited until the summer to find the bodies.
  • In March the first five found were buried with large public funerals in open coffins with no interference from the state even though the complexions of the deceased created much discussion. In May Ivanov was summoned to Moscow to report to the Central Committee his findings. This resulted in the order to coverup. So there was a significant delay (circa two months) before the state decided to act.
4. After Russia had opened up in the 1990's we have interviews with Ivanov and his superior Okishev. Ivanov of course is the oracle for what the investigation had found. He uses the terms "fire orbs" (repeats this 7 times) and "directed heat rays".

Combining the above with the long standing reputation this region has for golden orbs etc, it's natural electro magnetic events imo.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:41:01 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

December 05, 2018, 04:55:47 AM
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Star man

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There are still a lot of unanswered questions but if the government had been involved then it becomes difficult to filter out facts from misinformation.

In terms of the shock wave from a low yield weapon this would be significantly toned down from a standard weapon and would also depend on distance from detonation. The wind blast could still have thrown people such that their injuries would be consistent with impact injuries. Ie as if they fell some distance.

In terms of the investigation it is likely that any knowledge of the tests would be limited to those in key positions and that not all government departments would be allowed access to the information. Thus those who new may have allowed investigation to continue up to the point where the investigation started to home in on the truth.

I thought the Dyatlov group logged camp site for that night was about 9 miles away?

I am interested in the electromagnetic theory. How would such a scenario play out.
 

December 05, 2018, 05:36:29 AM
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Nigel Evans




as if they fell some distance.It's difficult to explain the injury profile as falling some distance, where are the broken limbs? Falling into deep snow might do it but the snow wasn't that deep that night? They were found under it not on top of it. True they could have fallen elsewhere and been placed in the ravine.
 I thought the Dyatlov group logged camp site for that night was about 9 miles away?No they were roughly back on course on reaching the cedar.

I am interested in the electromagnetic theory. How would such a scenario play out.Ah i'm glad you asked....
1. Snowstorms create ionisation horizontally in a similar manner to how thunderstorms create it vertically.2. Free electrons in swirling air creates microwaves.3. Microwaves create ozone and nitrogen oxides, typically nitrogen dioxide - NO2.4. Humans exposed to NO2 suffer from silo fillers disease - nitric acid in lung. NO2 also slowly converts to nitric acid on the skin which interacts with the keratin to turn it yellow and orange. N.B. Yuri D displayed evidence of a pulmonary edema and had dark orange skin at his funeral (but less in the morgue). As did others e.g. Zina and Lyudmila. N.B. this is also seen with the Chivruay victims. Penetrating the deep snow to pitch a tent creates an earth point in an otherwise insulated landscape creating a concentration of NO2 at/in the tent (assuming that the nitrogen oxides are ionised and attracted to earth). N.B. the NO2 theory has other explanations - decomposing grasses under the snow "silage" and nitrogen oxides from rocket fuel.
5. The ionised air above the mountain creates lightning which it has been observed can create "rollers" - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html which are a form of ball lightning (BL). One of the books i've read mentions that at a funeral one of the investigating party confided in a relative that they had seen rollers coming down the mountain one night.
6. One theory to explain BL is that it is a plasma of electrons rotating at relativistic speeds. This results in the object demonstrating large mass and momentum.7. This gives you injuries consistent with an automobile accident. Further it's observed that BL can interact with dielectrics and conductors in curious ways, e.g. BL passing down a street can rip internal house wiring through walls and throw it into the street presumably via electro motive force. So the ravine injuries could have an explanation here as well. There is of course some overlap with Lyudmila's injuries and cattle mutilations which have EM explanations..
 

December 05, 2018, 02:35:48 PM
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Star man

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The nitrogen oxides and ball lightning is an interesting idea. I like your lateral way of thinking.  Is this theory your own idea?  I am particularly interested in what you said about the plasma gaining relativistic mass.  I am not an expert on ball lightning but from what I have just looked up on the net it is rare and has been said to cause strange effects including physicall damage to nearby objects and anything it comes into contact with.  It also said that it can explode.  Normal lightning is a discharge of a considerable amount of energy.  As Doc brown put it in the movie Back to the Future he needed 1.21 Jigawatts.  But how much energy does ball lightning carry.  And if the plasma is relativistic to the point where it gains mass how much energy would such a thing have?  How much mass are we talking about?  It sounds like a huge amount.

On the night of the incident though even if NOx was produced near or around the tent would it not be significantly diluted by air flow over the tent?  What sort of concentrations would there be?  Why would it cause the hikers to flee without their essential clothing and gear?

Thanks for clarifying the intended route of the campers.

One thought that did cross my mind with respect to the neutron bomb test idea is that maybe the group were not there by accident.  Maybe some members of the group knew what was going on and were there as observers of the test. Maybe even as human guinea pigs.  Not a very nice thought and probably not what happened but it is a possibility.

You mentioned lung Odeama and orange skin. The neutron bomb scenario may also support these findings.  If the group had been exposed to significant levels of neutron radiation then their rapidly multiplying cells would pretty much stop working and effects would start pretty soon.  This would include things like the stomach lining and the immune system.  It could also affect mucous membranes and possibly cause the Odema.  Also the epidermal layer of the skin could start to die.  If it was a neutron bomb then these poor people would have started to feel the effects before they died of hypothermia. 

In the neutron bomb scenario Their bodies would start to break down.  This may account for the unusual amounts of urine found in the bodies even though they died of hypothermia. There may have been more going on in their bodies than just hypothermia.

Neutron radiation can also cause secondary activation of other elements causing them to become mildly radioactive.  This may explain the traces of radioactivity found.  There is also the possibility of fallout, but this may have happened down wind of the camp site.

Another possibility is that weapon was large scale conventional such as a fuel air bomb.
 

December 05, 2018, 07:00:21 PM
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Jacques-Emile


A rotating sphere of relativistic electrons will blow up into x-rays within a microsecond. They can't last.
 

December 06, 2018, 12:58:53 AM
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Nigel Evans


Is this theory your own idea? 
Yes as far as i know.

It also said that it can explode. 
Oh yes.

How much mass are we talking about? 
The ball-lightning.info site has examples that would be equivalent to the momentum of battle tanks.

On the night of the incident though even if NOx was produced near or around the tent would it not be significantly diluted by air flow over the tent? It's a good question, they could have placed themselves in a back eddy of airflow over the crest of the hill or the wind could have dropped. From what i'm reading nitrogen oxides can be ionised and paramagnetic. Also NO2's boiling point is 21C so i think i'm talking about a mist wrt the DPI. The rescuers have stated that the footsteps suggest that the group exited the tent and then stayed and observed it at a distance. So i think electro magnetic attraction is involved unless it's the silage theory of course. The theory needs a concentration around the tent preventing a return to collect clothing but allowing them to stand and observe from a relatively short safe distance.
 

In the neutron bomb scenario
Atomic bombs create a lot of NO2 the mushroom cloud is typical orange.


This may account for the unusual amounts of urine found in the bodies even though they died of hypothermia.
Or they didn't die of hypothermia... Except for Igor.


There may have been more going on in their bodies than just hypothermia.The concentration of 3 bodies, Zina, Rustem and Igor within from memory 300 metres suggests that as the inclination of the slope increased they ran out of strength to tackle. Pulmonary distress from nitric acid is a good cause. Another is that microwaves affect the nervous system.


Neutron radiation can also cause secondary activation of other elements causing them to become mildly radioactive.  This may explain the traces of radioactivity found.  There is also the possibility of fallout, but this may have happened down wind of the camp site.I think the radiation can be explained as consistent with background levels. This has been discussed under the ball lightning section.


Another possibility is that weapon was large scale conventional such as a fuel air bomb.
But there was no observed damage to trees etc.
 

December 06, 2018, 01:07:06 AM
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Nigel Evans


A rotating sphere of relativistic electrons will blow up into x-rays within a microsecond. They can't last.
Not so, Professor Wu estimates up to 5 seconds for aerial objects. - https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263

However observations of rollers would seem to require longer.
 

December 06, 2018, 01:43:06 AM
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Nigel Evans


>> Star man - re "1.21 Jigawatts"
Professor Wu estimates "First, forming a microwave bubble in laboratory will need hundreds of gigawatt microwave, which is one order of magnitude higher than the manmade sources." - https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
 

December 06, 2018, 05:12:19 AM
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Jacques-Emile


That article is:
1.  awful and unsound
2.  says nothing about rotating relativistic electron fields
3.  is in a rubbish journal.
If relativistic electrons travel in anything but a straight path, they produce x-rays and bleed off energy, slowing down. This is true. CERN could not exist if it were not so.
 

December 06, 2018, 05:26:47 AM
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Jacques-Emile


Go with the simplest explanation. People seeing rockets in the dark at high altitudes only see the fireballs made by rocket engines. If you never see earlier, this is first time, you are scared, no?  The USSR was testing high-altitude rockets then.
 

December 06, 2018, 05:52:43 AM
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Nigel Evans


That article is:
1.  awful and unsound
2.  says nothing about rotating relativistic electron fields
3.  is in a rubbish journal.
If relativistic electrons travel in anything but a straight path, they produce x-rays and bleed off energy, slowing down. This is true. CERN could not exist if it were not so.
Well he's better qualified than me - https://person.zju.edu.cn/en/hcwu
He doesn't mention rotation, that's my "spin" on things....  grin1 The observational evidence is that rollers exist and demonstrate large mass/momentum. Maybe the answer is beyond our current science?

"First published in 1869, Nature is the world's leading multidisciplinary science journal. Nature publishes the finest peer-reviewed research that drives ..."

 

December 06, 2018, 08:56:07 AM
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Star man

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I suppose the orange orbs could have been rocket gases. If they were Do you think the rockets had something to do with the deaths of the group?
 

December 06, 2018, 09:03:42 AM
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Star man

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How would the ball lightning or roller sustain significant relativistic mass. The amount of energy required to develop a sign isn’t mass would be mind boggling wouldn’t it. Given E=MC2?  If it managed to build up that much energy would it explode with immense destructive power?  If so what sort of energy would it be?
 

December 06, 2018, 10:48:32 AM
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Nigel Evans


I suppose the orange orbs could have been rocket gases. If they were Do you think the rockets had something to do with the deaths of the group?
Rocket fuel could be N2O4 which would fit.
 

December 06, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


How would the ball lightning or roller sustain significant relativistic mass. The amount of energy required to develop a sign isn’t mass would be mind boggling wouldn’t it. Given E=MC2?  If it managed to build up that much energy would it explode with immense destructive power?  If so what sort of energy would it be?
Enough energy to do this - http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm

 

December 06, 2018, 02:38:01 PM
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Star man

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>Nigel,

The link was an interesting account of ball lightning.  I think I could have done with some ball lightning when I was excavating my garden to install drainage lines.

It's a fascinating phenomenon that's for sure. Maybe it's some kind of superconducting super hot ball of plasma that sits in some weird quantum state that mops up more and more electrons from the surrounding charged air.  But I don't know really. 

From what I can gather its very rare, and I'm not sure if ball lighting in itself would have caused the Dyatlov group to abandoned their campsite.  I know if I had seen some I would be very curious but unless it started to wreak havoc around the tent then I would probably have not abandoned my only shelter.  NOx or some other plume of noxious gas could have driven away from the camp site but given NOx is heavier than air and given their location on the slope and the high level of dilution of gases it would have to have been some very strange and extreme event.  Nevertheless I don't think anything should be ruled out.
 

December 07, 2018, 11:10:22 AM
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Nigel Evans


NOx or some other plume of noxious gas could have driven away from the camp site but given NOx is heavier than air and given their location on the slope and the high level of dilution of gases it would have to have been some very strange and extreme event.  Nevertheless I don't think anything should be ruled out.
Looks like something similar took place at Chivruay...
 

December 08, 2018, 01:49:57 AM
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Star man

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A logical break down of key events in the DPI

Assumption: The scene has not been tampered with and accurately reflects the events of that night.

Facts/analysis

1.  The hikers left their camp site, leaving their boots, their warm weather gear, and many items of equipment that could have been used as a weapon.  Some of them took their cameras.

Why did the hikers leave their camp site?

A: there was some external event outside of their influence that presented them with an immediate and significant threat to their lives.
B: they were forced to leave the tent and the camp site by other people.

For either of the above possibilities it is clear that the group as a whole were not anticipating any kind of threat to their lives for either scenario A or scenario B.  if they had been anticipating something then they would have prepared themselves better.  They would have been ready to leave their tent and or they would have collected equipment that could have been used as a weapon ( knives or ice axes etc).  Whatever happened it was a surprise.

For option B if they were forced to leave the tent by a person or persons, then it would have to have been someone or some people from within the group itself as there were no other foot prints in or around the camp site.

2. The group made their way down the slope toward the cedar tree.  They were not adequately prepared for this.

Some or all of the group made it to the cedar tree, where they gathered fire wood and made a fire in an attempt to keep warm.  There is evidence that they climbed the cedar tree up to a height of 5 metres.  If they were marched down to the cedar tree under duress, why would their attackers allow them to make a fire to survive?  This wouldn't make any logical sense, unless their attackers didn't accompany them down the slope, but instead stayed at the camp site, or their attackers being a part of the group were also exposed to the cold and made some of the other group members build the fire.  But why would the attackers leave the camp site unprepared.  This wouldn't make logical sense, so it is likely that if they were attacked the attackers stayed at the tent area. Another possibility is that those who were better dressed were the attackers, but almost all of the group lacked adequate cold weather gear.  So if they were attacked, the attackers may have not followed the hikers down the slope to the cedar tree.  The hikers could then build the fire and observe the camp site from the tree ( depending on visibility).  So if the attackers stayed at the camp site, then where are their foot prints. Maybe it was the three found dead on the slope between the camp site and the cedar tree? But why would they have left the campsite without boots and adequate clothing.  Nope.  There is another possibility.  Someone in the group had a less than 100% morale constitution.  The diaries speak of an incident on the train with an alcoholic who accused the group stealing his vodka.  Maybe one of the group did?  Also, the guys promised not to smoke on the trip, and apart from one packet of cigarettes no other smokes were found.  Nicotine craving on a survival expedition is not a good combination.  There were also underlying tensions as some of the group had broken the rules and were sitting by the fire before all the jobs were complete.  Not repairing the tent holes when needed. The diaries speak of the guys being "outraged" by this.  Underlying tensions around tent repairs, no cigarettes, and cold night on the mountain.  Maybe someone thought it was a good idea to crack open the stolen vodka and have a few warming gulps, or maybe a bit more than a few.  Fuelled by a lack of nicotine, too much alcohol and underlying tensions, maybe some words were said, and then some more, and maybe it got out of hand.  In a fit of rage the intoxicated person grabbed a knife and slashed at tent shouting fix this, or words to that effect.  A fight then breaks out.  The tent is ruined and their only means of shelter.  The situation escalates and the fighting becomes serious.  The group know their lives are now in danger.  The person responsible now fears for his own safety as he has put the rest of the groups lives at risk.  He grabs a knife and one of the other group members and holds them hostage, threatening to kill them.  He orders them to vacate the area and march down the slope.  They all march down.  Eventually the attacker succumbs to the cold and the rest of the group take back control.  The problem with this is none of the group had alcohol in their systems and even if such events could have happened without alcohol consumption, it wouldn't explain why the attacker would not get his warm weather gear and boots.

The above scenario is highly unlikely.  It is unlikely that any of the hikers, assuming they were of sound mind would create such a situation, and leave the camp site unprepared.  This would mean that if they were attacked it would probably have to have been by outsiders.  But if this happened then they would have had to be really good at leaving no evidence or clues that they were there, and why would the hikers have their cameras on their bodies without attempting to photograph their attackers.  There are a lot of problems with the idea that they were attacked, by either someone within the group or outsiders.  This makes scenario B highly improbable.

That mean option A is a more probable scenario.  Something significant happened that was outside of their influence.  Some natural or man made event that made them panic and believe that their lives were in danger if they did not move away from the camp site as quickly as possible.  This scenario does require any complex explanations.  They rapidly put distance between themselves and tent/camp site.  Their next best chance of survival was to make a fire which they did as soon as they found some fire wood at the tree line.  The fire was not sufficient to keep them warm and the snow not deep enough to build a snow shelter.  So they needed to relocate.  It's not clear whether the three on the slope died going back to the tent or on their way to the cedar tree.  They have though it would be better to return to the tent and died on the way.  The rav 4 may have been waiting by the fire for their return or they may have gone further into the woods to look for more shelter and a place to build a snow den. If it was dark, and they were already weak and fighting the cold, it's possible they all stumbled into the ravine and fell sustaining the injuries discovered on 3 of the rav 4.  The remaining surviving member of the rav 4 tries to build a shelter and drag his dying or dead friends into the den, but he dies of the cold before he can them into the den.  The missing eyes and tongue are just natural decay.

Obviously all of the above is open to discussion.
 

December 08, 2018, 12:23:30 PM
Reply #20
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Monika


A logical break down of key events in the DPI

Assumption: The scene has not been tampered with and accurately reflects the events of that night.

Facts/analysis

1.  The hikers left their camp site, leaving their boots, their warm weather gear, and many items of equipment that could have been used as a weapon.  Some of them took their cameras.

Why did the hikers leave their camp site?

A: there was some external event outside of their influence that presented them with an immediate and significant threat to their lives.
B: they were forced to leave the tent and the camp site by other people.

For either of the above possibilities it is clear that the group as a whole were not anticipating any kind of threat to their lives for either scenario A or scenario B.  if they had been anticipating something then they would have prepared themselves better.  They would have been ready to leave their tent and or they would have collected equipment that could have been used as a weapon ( knives or ice axes etc).  Whatever happened it was a surprise.

For option B if they were forced to leave the tent by a person or persons, then it would have to have been someone or some people from within the group itself as there were no other foot prints in or around the camp site.

2. The group made their way down the slope toward the cedar tree.  They were not adequately prepared for this.

Some or all of the group made it to the cedar tree, where they gathered fire wood and made a fire in an attempt to keep warm.  There is evidence that they climbed the cedar tree up to a height of 5 metres.  If they were marched down to the cedar tree under duress, why would their attackers allow them to make a fire to survive?  This wouldn't make any logical sense, unless their attackers didn't accompany them down the slope, but instead stayed at the camp site, or their attackers being a part of the group were also exposed to the cold and made some of the other group members build the fire.  But why would the attackers leave the camp site unprepared.  This wouldn't make logical sense, so it is likely that if they were attacked the attackers stayed at the tent area. Another possibility is that those who were better dressed were the attackers, but almost all of the group lacked adequate cold weather gear.  So if they were attacked, the attackers may have not followed the hikers down the slope to the cedar tree.  The hikers could then build the fire and observe the camp site from the tree ( depending on visibility).  So if the attackers stayed at the camp site, then where are their foot prints. Maybe it was the three found dead on the slope between the camp site and the cedar tree? But why would they have left the campsite without boots and adequate clothing.  Nope.  There is another possibility.  Someone in the group had a less than 100% morale constitution.  The diaries speak of an incident on the train with an alcoholic who accused the group stealing his vodka.  Maybe one of the group did?  Also, the guys promised not to smoke on the trip, and apart from one packet of cigarettes no other smokes were found.  Nicotine craving on a survival expedition is not a good combination.  There were also underlying tensions as some of the group had broken the rules and were sitting by the fire before all the jobs were complete.  Not repairing the tent holes when needed. The diaries speak of the guys being "outraged" by this.  Underlying tensions around tent repairs, no cigarettes, and cold night on the mountain.  Maybe someone thought it was a good idea to crack open the stolen vodka and have a few warming gulps, or maybe a bit more than a few.  Fuelled by a lack of nicotine, too much alcohol and underlying tensions, maybe some words were said, and then some more, and maybe it got out of hand.  In a fit of rage the intoxicated person grabbed a knife and slashed at tent shouting fix this, or words to that effect.  A fight then breaks out.  The tent is ruined and their only means of shelter.  The situation escalates and the fighting becomes serious.  The group know their lives are now in danger.  The person responsible now fears for his own safety as he has put the rest of the groups lives at risk.  He grabs a knife and one of the other group members and holds them hostage, threatening to kill them.  He orders them to vacate the area and march down the slope.  They all march down.  Eventually the attacker succumbs to the cold and the rest of the group take back control.  The problem with this is none of the group had alcohol in their systems and even if such events could have happened without alcohol consumption, it wouldn't explain why the attacker would not get his warm weather gear and boots.

The above scenario is highly unlikely.  It is unlikely that any of the hikers, assuming they were of sound mind would create such a situation, and leave the camp site unprepared.  This would mean that if they were attacked it would probably have to have been by outsiders.  But if this happened then they would have had to be really good at leaving no evidence or clues that they were there, and why would the hikers have their cameras on their bodies without attempting to photograph their attackers.  There are a lot of problems with the idea that they were attacked, by either someone within the group or outsiders.  This makes scenario B highly improbable.

That mean option A is a more probable scenario.  Something significant happened that was outside of their influence.  Some natural or man made event that made them panic and believe that their lives were in danger if they did not move away from the camp site as quickly as possible.  This scenario does require any complex explanations.  They rapidly put distance between themselves and tent/camp site.  Their next best chance of survival was to make a fire which they did as soon as they found some fire wood at the tree line.  The fire was not sufficient to keep them warm and the snow not deep enough to build a snow shelter.  So they needed to relocate.  It's not clear whether the three on the slope died going back to the tent or on their way to the cedar tree.  They have though it would be better to return to the tent and died on the way.  The rav 4 may have been waiting by the fire for their return or they may have gone further into the woods to look for more shelter and a place to build a snow den. If it was dark, and they were already weak and fighting the cold, it's possible they all stumbled into the ravine and fell sustaining the injuries discovered on 3 of the rav 4.  The remaining surviving member of the rav 4 tries to build a shelter and drag his dying or dead friends into the den, but he dies of the cold before he can them into the den.  The missing eyes and tongue are just natural decay.

Obviously all of the above is open to discussion.

I totally agree with the option A. But it is a mystery why they left the tent, but their steps into the forest were quiet without chaos and running. One possible explanation is that something in or on the tent or in immediate surrounding of the tent  drive them out and prevent them from taking their clothes. But what??? It must have been something deadly dangerous, even more dangerous  than staying poorly clothed.
 

December 08, 2018, 04:44:43 PM
Reply #21
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Star man

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Yes, I think option A is the more probable.  Something scared them, and it was either natural, or man made.  It may have been difficult for them to run in the snow, and with no shoes on.  So it might be that they moved as quickly as they could as a goup.

They would have started to feel the effects of the cold within minutes of leaving the campsite and well before they got to the cedar tree frost bite and hypothermia must have been setting in.  So whatever it was that convinced them to keep moving away from the camp site it must have been really compelling.
 

December 09, 2018, 02:10:11 PM
Reply #22
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Loose}{Cannon

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Where is option C through Z?
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

December 09, 2018, 03:16:53 PM
Reply #23
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sarapuk

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A lot of OPTIONS seem to be cropping up on this TOPIC of the MILITARY ACCIDENT THEORY.  What about this OPTION  ;  No metals from any kind of military weapon were found in the area or on or in the bodies of the dead.  Any explosion of any kind will shower an area with METALS. And it doesnt matter what kind of weapon was used, there would be AMPLE EVIDENCE at the scene. There was absolutely no evidence found on or in the bodies of the dead to suggest a military weapon had been used.
DB
 

December 09, 2018, 04:09:33 PM
Reply #24
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Star man

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>>Loose Cannon

The two hgh level options I was focussing on was

1. Some significant event outside of their control and not deliberately intended to harm them

2. A deliberate and maliscious act by humans to cause them to die, such as attacking their campsite
 

December 09, 2018, 04:27:45 PM
Reply #25
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Star man

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A low yield tactical nuclear weapon detonated as an air burst would vaporise any metal parts.  There is anecdotal evidence that Ivanov saw the tops of the trees scorched.  Also, there were reports of orange orbs from geolists over 70km away from the pass.  A 500m fire ball viewed from 70km would appear as about 24 seconds of arc.  This is about two thirds the size of the moon in the night sky.

There are also reports from pilots who say they saw glowing spheres in the sky, and that this was followed by the plane vibrating and their instruments going crazy.  It would be typical of a such a detonation.  The plane would be buffeted by the residual shock wave and also hit with an EMP pulse that would have caused the instruments to go crazy.

There also reports of rockets/missiles being seen that night.

It would also explain the 3 year refusal of issuing passes to travel tithe area.

Why did they ask for radiation surveys?

I'm not convinced it was some nuclear test that Dyatlov group got caught up in but it is a possibility.
 

December 10, 2018, 05:27:28 PM
Reply #26
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sarapuk

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A low yield tactical nuclear weapon detonated as an air burst would vaporise any metal parts.  There is anecdotal evidence that Ivanov saw the tops of the trees scorched.  Also, there were reports of orange orbs from geolists over 70km away from the pass.  A 500m fire ball viewed from 70km would appear as about 24 seconds of arc.  This is about two thirds the size of the moon in the night sky.

There are also reports from pilots who say they saw glowing spheres in the sky, and that this was followed by the plane vibrating and their instruments going crazy.  It would be typical of a such a detonation.  The plane would be buffeted by the residual shock wave and also hit with an EMP pulse that would have caused the instruments to go crazy.

There also reports of rockets/missiles being seen that night.

It would also explain the 3 year refusal of issuing passes to travel tithe area.

Why did they ask for radiation surveys?

I'm not convinced it was some nuclear test that Dyatlov group got caught up in but it is a possibility.


Yes but then the question would be ; how does the nuke manage to vaporise any metals and still kill all the Dyatlov Group without destroying the TENT and flattening bushes and TREE's etc etc.
DB
 

December 10, 2018, 10:56:43 PM
Reply #27
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Star man

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Quote from: Star man on December 09, 2018, 04:27:45 PM
A low yield tactical nuclear weapon detonated as an air burst would vaporise any metal parts.  There is anecdotal evidence that Ivanov saw the tops of the trees scorched.  Also, there were reports of orange orbs from geolists over 70km away from the pass.  A 500m fire ball viewed from 70km would appear as about 24 seconds of arc.  This is about two thirds the size of the moon in the night sky.

There are also reports from pilots who say they saw glowing spheres in the sky, and that this was followed by the plane vibrating and their instruments going crazy.  It would be typical of a such a detonation.  The plane would be buffeted by the residual shock wave and also hit with an EMP pulse that would have caused the instruments to go crazy.

There also reports of rockets/missiles being seen that night.

It would also explain the 3 year refusal of issuing passes to travel tithe area.

Why did they ask for radiation surveys?

I'm not convinced it was some nuclear test that Dyatlov group got caught up in but it is a possibility.




>>. It's a good question and I will attemp to answer this for you:
If this was a tactical nuclear test, then the core temperature of the device will reach up to 100 million degrees Celsius within less than a second.  Any material that the device is made of is then consumed, vaporised and even turned into a plasma that becomes a part of the expanding fire ball.  These devices are not immediately lethal at ranges greater than about 600 metres due to the heat, blast and wind blast.  The radiation is lethal up to 1 to 2 km, but won't kill them immediately.  It will make them feel very I'll though. The shock wave and wind blast may have given the tent one hell of a kick, but it wouldn't t have torn it have and fried it.  It would certainly have been enough to cause panick.  What followed would have been poor decision making to leave the tent poorly dressed.  It wasn't the nuc that killed them in the end it was the poor decision making and the cold.  The Nuc was what stared the chain of events.

Yes but then the question would be ; how does the nuke manage to vaporise any metals and still kill all the Dyatlov Group without destroying the TENT and flattening bushes and TREE's etc etc.
 

December 14, 2018, 06:22:14 PM
Reply #28
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sarapuk

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There is no EVIDENCE to suggest that the Dyatlov Group were killed as a result of any kind of NUCLEAR WEAPON.
DB
 

December 15, 2018, 04:58:41 PM
Reply #29
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Star man

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No.  I don't think they were killed by a nuclear weapon.  I think it is one possibility that could have been terrifying enough for them to leave the tent without their clothing and shoes.

If it was a tactical nuclear weapon there would still be evidence of it today.  In or around the area.

It would depend on fallout, detonation location, place and altitude and wind speed.

Plume dispersion models could calculate where any fallout may have come down.  If core samples are then taken and analysed it may help determine if such a test did occur.

There may also be evidence in the bodies and autopsy reports.  Key things to look for would be deterioration of their stomach lining, and signs of bacteria in their blood streams (sepsis).