Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Infra-sound / Gravity fluctuation / Teleportation => Topic started by: Per Inge Oestmoen on March 12, 2018, 07:46:03 PM

Title: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on March 12, 2018, 07:46:03 PM
Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?

I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.

However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.

These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us. But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.

The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: hanno on April 06, 2018, 02:26:56 PM
I agree with you. Wind can make a strange sound, that's for sure. But make you feel so uncomfortable that you leave your tent only in underwear when it is -20 degree ... I can't imagine.

Beyond this: I never heard about a documented case where infrasound can make you crazy. And there were so many people on Kholat Syakhl since the accident, and never ever something similar happened. And further even if there would be infrasound, not all hiker would react to it in the same kind. No, it must be a real danger, as an avalanche, a burning stove, mansi hunter, even a bomb or a rocket.

What I find strange is, that Donnie Eichar favorites this theory. I mean he was personally on that mountain, met with real persons as Yuri Yudin and he is surely one of the experts of the case. And then he comes with the infrasound theory that is in my opinion so unlikely.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 08, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?

Yes, such can be under certain conditions. In it specify some researches, in particular works of such researchers as W Gavro (France), Tarozy (Austria) and some other.

I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.

There is such hypothesis. I think it is rather probable.

However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.

Why?
There are researches in psychophysiology which confirm that if there are influences on a brain of the person in a resonance with brain biorhythms (scale - or delta - a range) such effect is possible quite. The infrasound which influences the person with certain frequency and intensity level, creates accumulation of a certain dose of absorption then there is an effect reminding "panic". It is called the changed Altered state of consciousness (ASС). Such medical researches too exist.
As mathematicians speak: on a place there are all necessary and sufficient conditions for such event.

These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us.

Nature influence on the person is so great that it does not depend on its skills and desire and I.Q. Possibilities of the person to resist of the nature are limited. They are not infinite.

But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.

It is possible provided that their actions are made reasonably. However ASC it not so non-realised actions, and finish submission to instincts. In other words, it is sequence of behaviour which is caused by psychology - "panic" condition - an involuntary condition of fear - desire to escape from at place where there is a false sensation of danger.

The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 08, 2018, 02:11:50 PM
I agree with you. Wind can make a strange sound, that's for sure. But make you feel so uncomfortable that you leave your tent only in underwear when it is -20 degree ... I can't imagine.

But, nevertheless, there are physical phenomena which " I can't imagine " (с). It no-dependent clothes on degree and ambient temperature.

Beyond this: I never heard about a documented case where infrasound can make you crazy.

There are some indirect instructions on such cases. However that there are no regular supervision and studying of this phenomenon, them can carry to other reasons.
Some persons on all planet Earth are engaged in such researches of all. And at amateur level and not regularly. The reason for it simple - is not present commercial effect in the future. Even in the long term time.


And there were so many people on Kholat Syakhl since the accident, and never ever something similar happened.

It is the big error so to consider. For all 60 years after that the case was not only one group (in 1999) which stopped for one night near to that place where there was a tent of Woodpeckers crew. Weather that night was absolutely another from that that was at Woodpeckers crew.
The stop was special, they made travel to the 40 anniversary of incident of Woodpeckers crew. It was university UPI command.
Besides, there some times on 7 … 9 days spent the night we with my friend - Shura (Alexander Alekseenkov). We specially there came for research of incident of Woodpeckers crew. Here our video  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkU_SsNR7iV2VzEaVSu3ccQ .
Trustworthy information about other commands at us is not present.
However I very well know about that as the infrasonic wave extends and absorbed - I specially was engaged in this phenomenon. Therefore we stopped in such place of this pass where we could not suffer from this phenomenon.
Other groups which they there were passed by very quickly (10 … 30 minutes). Especially it is necessary to notice that their big part passed at good weather where such phenomena could not be observed basically.


And further even if there would be infrasound, not all hiker would react to it in the same kind. No, it must be a real danger, as an avalanche, a burning stove, mansi hunter, even a bomb or a rocket.

If to consider this case in detail it is excluded. If it is interesting, I will try to analyse in details all these reasons in detail. If only time and possibilities has sufficed me. I have not enough both that, and another.

What I find strange is, that Donnie Eichar favorites this theory. I mean he was personally on that mountain, met with real persons as Yuri Yudin and he is surely one of the experts of the case. And then he comes with the infrasound theory that is in my opinion so unlikely.

Anything strange. Donnie Eichar absolutely consider fairly that the similar hypothesis can explain all without attraction superfluous and nonexistent as a matter of fact. I quite share its opinion. At least because advised him on this incident and accompanied it to pass, in its travel there.
We have make progress of this opinion independently from each other and at various times.

***************************************

As to trust or not to trust in such events, it is concept as in religion - the belief, instead of what that knowledge and experience is necessary simply. I is supporter of the scientific approach to understanding of such processes.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on April 09, 2018, 04:52:23 AM
The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)


Infrasound is not a physical threat of the highest order. It may influence people's mental state. But to hypothesize that it can make nine people out of nine flee their tent and into the Siberian winter night and not return to the tent is quite a stretch.

Infrasound couid not be the reason why all nine perished. It is simply impossible.

Observations by meteorology at the time disproves the theory that the wind was strong enough as to create any such effect.

More importantly, the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group members point unmistakably to all of them being murdered by humans attacking them. Only Igor Dyatlov would seem to have truly died from hypothermia, all the others showed various degrees of injuries that can only have resulted from an attack. The members of the Dyatlov group became the victims of a very intelligent attack, where they all were lined up after they were forced out from the tent - and then they moved away from the tent in a way that strongly suggested that they were forced to walk. They were not fleeing in panic from the tent, the tracks clearly show that. Still, even if there was no panic only one had boots on and none of the victims had proper winter gloves. If they had fled in a confused mental state with panic and disorder, the tracks would have shown that.

All available evidence strongly suggests that the attackers mercilessly calculated that forcing the nine people out in the winter without proper protection of hands and feet would lead to their death, and so they made sure that their hands and feet were unprotected. However, according to the weather reports at the time, the temperature this night in the relevant area was no colder than -18-25C, and so the Dyatlov group members did not die as soon as expected. The attackers must have followed them after some time - in order to make sure that they perished. Significantly, the last four who died were those who were relatively better dressed and who also suffered the worst injuries. Their attackers must have judged that these four would be able to survive for several days and perhaps even could escape, so they decided to kill them with strong force.

Rustem Slobodin is thought to have been killed first, and this is also as expected. He was very athletic, and would have tried to resist. But his skull was crushed, and he was left unconscious in the snow and died after some time. It is not possible that the damage to his head could have been caused by him falling to the ground.

Neither infrasound nor any other atmospheric phenomena can fight with people, such phenomena cannot break skulls, necks and rib cages.

There is no possibility that the injuries documented could be caused by falls, because the ravine was not deep enough or sufficiently precipitous and the injuries would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies. It is extremely suspicious that some investigators even mentioned a fall as a possible cause, and it is clear that the Soviet authorities did not want the investigators to draw the only sensible conclusion that this tragedy was a case of a cold blooded murder with planned intent to kill all nine hikers. The severe damage to the rib cage of two of the victims is particularly indicative of a murderous attack. It is probable that the damage was done with elbow strikes to both sides of the rib cage, a technique which is well known from close combat techniques. No superhuman strength and no bomb blast is required to crush a person's rib cage.

The Dyatlov group was murdered. The great mystery lies in why it was done and who did it. That question can only be answered if and when some of those who know tell the truth of what happened.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 19, 2018, 06:25:09 AM
The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)


Infrasound is not a physical threat of the highest order.

Why?

It may influence people's mental state.

I also confirmed it. And it is enough of it to start all chain of events

But to hypothesize that it can make nine people out of nine flee their tent and into the Siberian winter night and not return to the tent is quite a stretch.

Why # 2? It is one should be required substantiation why it is impossible.

Infrasound couid not be the reason why all nine perished. It is simply impossible.

If tell that the infrasound has killed 9 persons it cannot really cause.
It only promoted that people would escape from tent. All the rest were made by the nature in the form of a frost. And as traumas and stress get after escape from tent. They have escaped in such clothes which was insufficiently for this purpose that they could survive.

Observations by meteorology at the time disproves the theory that the wind was strong enough as to create any such effect.

Why you so have solved? Whence you took the data on supervision by meteorology?
Under my data all that was necessary also it was necessary force.

More importantly, the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group members point unmistakably to all of them being murdered by humans attacking them.

It has no substantiation. I will tell about it in following paragraphs.
On the basis of what you do such decision? What signs can specify in that have killed them?
In records coroner that traumas concern to acquire on a place of their movement is accurately described only. I well know details of a place of all events, what so confirm. Besides, I prosecuted subjects of biomechanics of shock influences what accurately know about that they such signs.

Only Igor Dyatlov would seem to have truly died from hypothermia, all the others showed various degrees of injuries that can only have resulted from an attack.

Please list those signs as which you consider concerning an attack? About whom I will not tell in the following phrase.
Deadly traumas were only at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles and Lyudmila Dubinina. Simeon Zolotaryov's traumas have led to death from freezing complicated by that it could not render the fast and qualified aids. The trauma of Rustem Slobodin has resulted it with gradual freezing. Because it could not move from that place where it was trauma. And nearby there was nobody from its his friends.
On a place of events I and my friend have precisely enough established all places where bodies have been found. Near to each of them there are conditions of develop of those traumas which at them described coroner. Except a place where the trauma was develop by Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. But it can be caused that place where the lantern thrown on a slope has been found out. There too it is a lot of conditions in which he could develop such trauma.

The members of the Dyatlov group became the victims of a very intelligent attack, where they all were lined up after they were forced out from the tent - and then they moved away from the tent in a way that strongly suggested that they were forced to walk.

This incorrect representation about their behaviour and arrangement on place.
Here the map by scale which designates their position on a slope. It is made as a result of careful scrutiny of documents by searches and reconnoitring of this districts.
 
(https://c.radikal.ru/c03/1804/ce/cdb79eda4f79t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c03/1804/ce/cdb79eda4f79.jpg)

Traumas do not contain any signs of that they were put by extraneous people or participants of Dyatlov team. There is article (in Russian) where all traumas are in detail considered from a biomechanics position .

They were not fleeing in panic from the tent, the tracks clearly show that.

To which signs it can be defined?
Traces have been found out by small sites, on a distance of one group from another. On them it is possible to define only direction and quantity of people which have left them a method of superpositions. That is on the sum of separate signs.
Besides, it is impossible to define that people yet did NOT make, that they have already made is possible only. It is impossible to understand that is not present. That is available Is possible only.

Still, even if there was no panic only one had boots on and none of the victims had proper winter gloves. If they had fled in a confused mental state with panic and disorder, the tracks would have shown that.

Than traces which leave at "panic" (I differ has defined it as a stressful condition when they did not understand, what they make or ASС) from what people will leave at the realising actions? It cannot be distinguished. Traces do not possess speech or reason which can deliver the information. And outwardly they look absolutely equally.
Absence of the necessary clothes which is necessary in such situation and as that for this purpose that her would be required to take absolutely small time, just and says that their actions were not realised. Even if the name "panic" here is use not correct. Matter is not in the name, and to do the action.
General  direction for all and concentration of traces it was defined by a bias downwards and a wind direction. They went to a wind direction downhill.

All available evidence strongly suggests that the attackers mercilessly calculated that forcing the nine people out in the winter without proper protection of hands and feet would lead to their death, and so they made sure that their hands and feet were unprotected.

You mean which proofs? Whence they are given? Please list them and particularly specify that to that should correspond?
And as it is interesting to me to learn: how and possessing what skills there extraneous people could get? Especially considering that they should approach to tent at the night-time and at very bad weather. How they carried out logistics and orientation in those conditions and why nobody has noticed them in settlements? Considering that these settlements are located far from this place and it is not enough of them. Literally is one or two.
In sparsely populated district any extraneous person is swept well up. Group of people mast be noticeable especially.

However, according to the weather reports at the time, the temperature this night in the relevant area was no colder than -18-25C, and so the Dyatlov group members did not die as soon as expected.

At such temperature which was and in those clothes in which have found participants of Dyatlov team  person can live approximately 5 … 8 hours. Provided that it forces itself to move constantly, compensating thermal losses from a frost. Level of these losses corresponds approximately 350 … 500 Vt and more. Especially it concerns the person who is blown by a wind. At those speeds of winds that are characteristic for that district, level of losses can increase approximately to 3 … 5 times. Windless weather in woodless areas of Northern Ural Mountains practically does not happen. Average speed of a wind, characteristic for such conditions which were for Dyatlov team in the night February, 01 to 02nd, 1959 should would be about 10 … 15 m/s (20 to 30 knots).

The attackers must have followed them after some time - in order to make sure that they perished. Significantly, the last four who died were those who were relatively better dressed and who also suffered the worst injuries. Their attackers must have judged that these four would be able to survive for several days and perhaps even could escape, so they decided to kill them with strong force.

These are what that fantastic conditions of murder. They too difficult and irrational. And then, what for so artistic performance to display all on all slope? It what them is easier and faster was to find?
Why murderers so long and ineptly addressed with people? They should drive all somewhere in a hole and to dig during snow that them could find only when all snow would thaw.
They not murderers and whom that silly persons who would want that them have found faster and have punished … Leave such quantity of proofs after themselves full idiots could only.
And then, where and how they have disappeared? Have evaporated without traces? And their traces have evaporated too?
No, that version contain of murderers turns out the extremely insolvent.

Rustem Slobodin is thought to have been killed first, and this is also as expected. He was very athletic, and would have tried to resist. But his skull was crushed, and he was left unconscious in the snow and died after some time. It is not possible that the damage to his head could have been caused by him falling to the ground.

This incorrect statement. At all points.
1.Rustem was trauma and died absolutely alone. Otherwise who that of companions has at least tried to assist it aid.
2.The Place where it have found is in several metres from that place where it easily could receive head injuries having fallen in the dark here with such snow eaves:
There difference more than 2,5 m ( 8.5 ft at level of feet) + its growth is equal 1метр 72 sm (5 ft 7 in ), all about 4 m (13 ft). It is quite enough of it that would will receive a head injury with a crack a skull. In such condition the person faints also coordination of movements. It is not capable to leave of the big distance. For this reason it also have found in several metres ( or yd) from it snow eaves.
3.The Similar trauma does not give possibility to survive in the conditions of cold is not dependent on any sports, or any other qualities.

On these 2 pictures you can visible the place about which looks have find out Rustem Slobodin in the winter 1959.

(https://a.radikal.ru/a04/1804/1d/5c7a4a994f09t.jpg) (https://a.radikal.ru/a04/1804/1d/5c7a4a994f09.jpg)
(https://c.radikal.ru/c31/1804/94/e2010306cfact.jpg)[/url

Height of a ski stick is 140 sm (4.5 ft). The general difference on snow eaves about 2,5 m (8 ft). If it add Rustem Slobodin stature of 172 sm (~5 ft 7 in), it is enough of it for this purpose what to develop such trauma which it had. I remind, hi moved in this place in a night-time.

 (https://c.radikal.ru/c31/1804/94/e2010306cfac.jpg)
Neither infrasound nor any other atmospheric phenomena can fight with people, such phenomena cannot break skulls, necks and rib cages.

Both these of the factor need to be considered separately. Infrasound only has provided conditions to escape from tent, and all the rest already result of other events which do not concern to infrasound. It is not necessary to conform to all to same. It is not true.
Traumas grow out of actions of people in the bad conditions weather defined by a cold, a wind, darkness, a stressful condition, a lay of land, impossibility to pass further in wood where there is a wood for a fire, or to return to tent behind to the necessary things.

There is no possibility that the injuries documented could be caused by falls, because the ravine was not deep enough or sufficiently precipitous and the injuries would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies.

It too the incorrect statement. The slope where traumas of a thorax at Ludy and Simeon have been height, has difference height approximately 7 … 8 metres (22 or 26 ft), and a steepness about 40 degrees. More than it is enough of it what to develop such, or more serious traumas.
On this image the slope from below is visible. On the top of a slope there is Yury Yudin. His height is 177 sm (~5 ft 9 in)
 
(https://d.radikal.ru/d24/1804/c1/b8c9130efa2et.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d24/1804/c1/b8c9130efa2e.jpg)

In 1959 this slope was without trees and the big bushes.
It is necessary well and in details to know place where there were all actions of this incident. I would like to ask a question: why “ would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies.”©? As well as to what signs you define it?

It is extremely suspicious that some investigators even mentioned a fall as a possible cause, and it is clear that the Soviet authorities did not want the investigators to draw the only sensible conclusion that this tragedy was a case of a cold blooded murder with planned intent to kill all nine hikers.

Before whom in what that to accuse, it is necessary to establish authentically the fact of what it was murder? Such signs by detailed consideration of a problem it is not found out. Imagination limits does not exist, therefore people are inclined to treat what they do not know in what kind that of deliberate actions of criminal character. If to understand on the substance or is professional, it turns out more and more simply and usually, as always in life. Any solution is more usual, than it is drawn by antiscientific fiction writers.
In this incident it is necessary to itself to ask a question: that you want to make - either to find true, or to write the fantastic story on a theme - as I would like that it would look. Imaginations always much more difficult also are more unreal than happens in the nature. But it is more interesting to the reader. It is necessary to choose for itself that is necessary: truth or interest of the reader?

The severe damage to the rib cage of two of the victims is particularly indicative of a murderous attack. It is probable that the damage was done with elbow strikes to both sides of the rib cage, a technique which is well known from close combat techniques.

It is completely excluded from the point of view of the description and mechanics of reception of traumas. It is result of influence with “a plane of the unlimited size” - as speak in medicine (in traumatology). Elbows and other elements of participants of "near fight” have rather limited area and cannot cause such traumas.
The hand has width (diameter) approximately in 8. 10 sm  (maximum) conform to 3 or 4 inch and what to be trauma thorax characteristic for Simeon (and furthermore Lyudmila) is necessary to have a plane (!) in the size more the thorax, that is more than 40 … 45 sm (15 to 17 in) Differently will be only a thin breach in width hardly less than this diameter. Thus, what to develop such force in the conditions of winter and those clothes which were on them (and after all and "attacking" too “were not naked”), it was unreal. The force should be not less than one ton of force on each thorax. Besides, in that case, breast bones that is not present in the description necessarily would suffer.
At both of them (at Luda and Simeon) break lines are on distance more than 45 sm (17 in) and out of a tangent line of a plane of a breast. That is characteristic for flat blow of the big area of the contact causing destruction of bones of edges in points of the greatest pressure which settle down already behind a line of the least bend of edges.

No superhuman strength and no bomb blast is required to crush a person's rib cage.

About a blast wave I will not speak, yet there will be clearly whence it in general there it could appear … And at falling by rolling from a slope in height of 8 metres (26 ft) and a steepness 40 degree, and the subsequent sharp stop, thorax traumas turn out very easily. And the big plane it is a bottom part of a ravine.

The Dyatlov group was murdered. The great mystery lies in why it was done and who did it. That question can only be answered if and when some of those who know tell the truth of what happened.

In general it is impossible to answer imaginations seriously. There are no all real signs of murder: the motive, possibility to find tent at night, absence of the information where and when it should be with the accuracy, necessary that in general would be possible to find it, weather conditions for such search, absolutely unsuccessful and unreliable way of murder, set of the artefacts left for show, impossible logistics to arrive into place and total absence of traces of stay on a place (and on approaches) extraneous people … will leave back,
It is possible to continue this list still for a long time.
Murder not the version, and it is the scenario for a detective horror film … Only so it also should be considered it.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 19, 2018, 05:43:15 PM
100% Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture from hitting head on rock peak. Such damage is not easily explained otherwise. A 3m fall onto rock is very considerable cause.
INDUBITABLY

 clap1
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 19, 2018, 06:07:46 PM
I cannot deny, Perfect!!
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 19, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
Physics!

Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 20, 2018, 11:35:26 AM
Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. C'est la vie
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 20, 2018, 12:06:35 PM
Can you put that in laymans terms?

What if the point of impact was......  A sharp edge or otherwise pointed?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 20, 2018, 10:51:27 PM
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 21, 2018, 10:03:29 AM
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks?  With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 21, 2018, 11:44:35 AM
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks?  With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.

Ever seen wind blown snow drifts where its bare ground 5ft away from 3m?  Wonder what happens when wind whips down the side of a mountain and into a ravine.   
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: hanno on April 21, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
It is a fact that wind can have an influence on the mind of both human and animals. There are a lot of articles that describe it. Also I found a lot about infrasound, or how it is named "the fearing frequency".  There are some youtube videos that claim that you can hear the infrasound in the video. It is assumed, that infrasound is below 19HZ.

If you watch these videos, some people will hear nothing at all. Other people will hear something like a deep bass. Some people that hear this sound don't like it, other people don't care about. If you want to test. search for infrasound, open some of the videos and test it.

I think we don't have to discuss whether wind can make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. That is more or less a fact. But...

1) The affect that it can have is different from human to human since it is a psychologically phenomenon. It is very unlikely that nine people that differ in gender, weight, height an so on do react in the same kind.

2) I have extra written "a little bit" uncomfortable. OK there are some rumors that infrasound can make you panic and do crazy things, but no scientifically proof. Some people don't like the sound,  but c'mon, some people don't like techno or classical music or whatever. What the nine hikers did (leaving the tent in underwear) was almost suicide. If this was caused by infrasound, it must have a very very strong effect. Comparing with hearing the sound and jumping out of the window. I can't find such a event that was documented.

3) There are some rumors that infrasound sounds like the roar of a tiger. This makes sense for me because some thousand years ago tigers, bears and so on were the enemies of humans. If this time a human did hear such a sound he should better run away and because of this it makes sense to fear such a sound. But this would be a normal logical reaction and so would be the response.

Conclusion: Does something like infrasound or "the fearing frequency" or the "terrifying sound" exist? I would say probably yes. Does it have an effect on humans? Yes, I would think so. But the effect would vary from human to human. Some would feel nothing, some would feel a little bit uncomfortable, maybe someone would get a panic attack. But can infrasound make nine people inside a tent get in such a panic that they forget everything, cut the tent and flee into the cold? Honestly, I can't imagine.

So I don't say it is impossible. Maybe there was such a extreme situation that the infrasound was so "strong" that every human who would have heard it would fall into panic, but I doubt it. Besides this, such a sound would be a very good weapon.

And something funny besides this: If you search long enough for infrasound videos, you will sooner or later come to a so called "brown note". It is a rumor that this is a sound that makes you **** immediately. I tried it as I tried the infrasound videos but ... no effect.   lol2
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 21, 2018, 03:45:49 PM
Isn't it scientifically unsound if you can't hear it?  grin1 Just kidding.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 21, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
a little here and a little there bigjoke.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:11:47 PM
Proofs do not arise from stubbornness.

Non acceptance of proofs always is a persistence direct consequence.

Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture contiguous with a ruinous temporal fracture. Such damage is not easily explained.

If we speak about crisis of basis of the skull (CBS) which was described by the forensic scientist it is easy to explain it. On a position of biomechanics of a skull at blow.
CBS this accompanying destruction at that trauma that was at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles (getting wound of a skull in the right temporal area). The reason that the arch of a skull and the basis it is uniform mechanical system. Therefore at loading on the skull arch, the skull basis too it is deformed. If the module of elasticity of the arch of a skull on an order (in 10 times) is more than at the skull basis deformation of the basis of a skull will be in 10 times more too.
Presence of a through breach of the arch of a skull testifies that deformation of the basis of a skull will be more than critical and there will be a destruction of the basis of a skull.
Energy required for such destruction is small - approximately 35 … 40 J. It is equivalent to head falling (the weight is equal about 5 kg) from height about 0,8 m.
It is all is simple enough laws which are studied in the biomechanic of a head as it is physical model.
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.

A 3m fall onto rock is very unlikely cause.

For this purpose, what to receive such trauma it would be not necessary to fall from height of 3 m. the height of own growth and a sharp stone Suffices. For example, for Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles this stone was 2 х 3,5 sm ( 0.78 x 1.3 in) it see had a pyramid-shaped the form. Such as the expert in forensic medicine has described a getting wound at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. In addition there was still a developed area of crisis 7 х 9 sm ( 2.75 x 3.5 in) which is secondary at a breach of a temporal part of a skull.
Such trauma was easy for developed on the third line of a stone ridge. As is in this picture:

(https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89bet.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89be.jpg)

On this image show the quantity of snow more than was in 1959.

Coral Hull saying demon-possessed Yeti just as likely. 

Yeti is not my basis. I am technical physicist, instead of cryptozoologist.
And with “the black climber” I was not in time yet will get acquainted still too.  grin1

Physics is physics, no?

What exactly is not pleasant to you in such section of technical physics, how is biomechanic?

Also if people fly for an irrational reason, would they not fly in an irrational manner?

It is abstractly possible to tell everything. Let better speak for the obvious reasons, but with sufficient degree of knowledge in a conversation theme.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:16:08 PM
In literature on ring fractures, they require a peak force of at least 4400N (440 kg or 1000 lb.) and require 14J of energy to complete damage.

Whether and there are reasons to doubt, what such loadings are impossible in those conditions what were on a place of events?
By my calculations there it turns out much more than 1 tons of force (> 10000 N) at falling in group persons from slope height in 8 m.
If you read in Russian, I will give the reference to article where all it speaks simply.

American race car driver died of ring fracture upon striking massive object at about 300 kph. Earnhardt. Perhaps 200W of power to base of skull in 100 ms.

I am happy that on a place of accident of Dyatlov team there were no races of the formula 1.  grin1
Also that speed of movement on a slope of each person was less than 300 kph  grin1
 
These are huge releases of energy. That doesn't include temporal skull damage.

It is necessary research concrete conditions on concrete district then there will be no such unreasoned statements.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:21:24 PM
Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. Total velocity ~ 9.5 m/s if runs 1.5 m/s. There's enough energy, 100J. But not enough force. A full header, skull only impact onto a stand-alone steel post, might be enough force. But ring fxs don't happen that way. The WHOLE BODY must travel no more than 8cm after impact.


I have not understood this post about. Please write more detaisl. All scheme of mechanic damage is a bit another. But it I will tell only when there will be a detailed description of your scheme.
Energy of 100 J can be enough for any trauma. Process is dynamic, therefore if give time of process deceleration equal 20 ms (2 ms is typical unit for processes in the biomechanic of blow to body person) force will be very big.
Do you can tell about these of 8 sm more in detail? What does it mean and why?
Whence is received figure 4 metrs I has not understood? But it is a question to Loose} {Cannon.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:23:05 PM
mistake
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:27:37 PM
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?

I have shown condition of snow in a photo in the previous post. However it is level of snow much more than was in 1959. In a photo from a place of searches it is visible that slopes above were almost completely without snow.
 
(https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001.jpg)
 
(https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7.jpg)
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:32:57 PM
It is a fact that wind can have an influence on the mind of both human and animals. T
...........................
. I tried it as I tried the infrasound videos but ... no effect.   lol2

Excuse me, I any more have no time for the answer today. Your comment interesting, but it demands a lot of time, therefore I will answer as soon as possibility will be presented.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 22, 2018, 04:24:35 PM
Quote
I have not understood this post about. Please write more detaisl. All scheme of mechanic damage is a bit another. But it I will tell only when there will be a detailed description of your scheme.
Energy of 100 J can be enough for any trauma. Process is dynamic, therefore if give time of process deceleration equal 20 ms (2 ms is typical unit for processes in the biomechanic of blow to body person) force will be very big.
Do you can tell about these of 8 sm more in detail? What does it mean and why?
Whence is received figure 4 metrs I has not understood? But it is a question to Loose} {Cannon.
A simple rule of thumb for falling body that starts from rest and comes to rest is that the kinetic energy at start and finish is zero, as there is zero velocity.
For free fall, acceleration is g=10m/s2. What is deceleration at end?
Throughout fall, kinetic energy increases over distance as E= force*distance, force =mg (mass x g above)
Stopping distance requires dissipation of energy. If the fall is 1 meter and stopping distance is 10cm, the deceleration is 100g. See?
For suicide woman, fall of 300 meters and stop in 30 cm. is a 1000g deceleration over 30 cm, or perhaps 500,000 N.
This is rule of thumb, not law. Air resistance slows fall. So OK close.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 22, 2018, 04:34:44 PM
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?

I have shown condition of snow in a photo in the previous post. However it is level of snow much more than was in 1959. In a photo from a place of searches it is visible that slopes above were almost completely without snow.
 
(https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c24/1804/91/1bb7fecb2001.jpg)
 
(https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1804/4a/d35b2bb2d2d7.jpg)

I was referring to the sides of the ravine where the rav4 were discovered.   
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 22, 2018, 05:33:42 PM
Yes reply Russian article. Temporal skull frx 40j.
Also-very few force-time curves last 2 milliseconds. The body flops about, not like a rigid structure, in falls, which last 100ms. or so.
Only very quick things - bullets and explosions-act in 1ms. time frame.
That is why I am certain that the explosion in den killed all in an instant.
Better to post in  Physics (http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=108.0)?
 Physics of Explosions  (http://scs.org/upload/documents/conferences/autumnsim/2012/presentations/dmms/15_Final_Submission.pdf)
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 24, 2018, 12:55:50 PM
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.
 

Of course, and out of respect I will hold you to such a standard.

Please explain to our friends here the difference between a ring fracture of the base of the skull, and a simple basilar skull fracture, and discuss the significance.

I note one review of the topic (sample page attached):
RING FRACTURES OF THE BASE OF THE SKULL, VOIGT GERHARD E. M.D.; SKÖLD, GÖRAN M.D.
Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery: June 1974 - Volume 14 - Issue 6 - ppg 494-505
In this discussion, the authors offer:

(https://preview.ibb.co/jiONdc/RingFx.png) (https://ibb.co/eyujrx)

We note from the autopsy report here that:
???? e excision of the right temporal muscle is determined by a depressed fracture of the right temporal-temporal region, in a 9 x 7 cm area with a defect in bone tissue and a temporal bone 3 x 3.5 x 2 cm in size. The specified area of ​​the bone is pressed into the cavity of the skull and is located on the dura mater. After the extraction of the brain substance in the middle cranium, a multi-lobed fracture of the right temporal bone was observed with the divergence and transition of the bone fracture into the anterior cranial pit in the supraorbital region of the frontal bone, the second crack passes through the days of the surface of the Turkish saddle in the region wedge-shaped delay, deepening into the thickness of the main bone, then goes to the middle cranium ?? on the left, with a divergence of bone edges from 0.1 to 0.4 cm.

The pattern of basilar fracture may be suggestive of a violent lateral flexion impulse, analogous to the hyperextension - violent retroflexion.  The description of the fracture is coarse, but seems to discuss a contiguous fracture transiting the frontal bone, to the sella turcica, to the base of the bone behind the foramen magnum.  (see drawing).

I comment also that the impacted bone that was impressed is over 60 cm^2; quite a large region to impress.

A classical ring fracture (e.g. see Earnhart autopsy) causes discontinuity normal to the plane of the bone, displacing it to make a step.  If the anterior step shows the skull remnant attached to the vertebral column to be caudal to the rest of the skull, and the posterior step-off shows the skull remnant attached to the vertebral column to be rostral to the rest of the skull, this would be a classic ring fracture.  With a lateral impact, one would expect a step-off as discussed in the Thibaux autopsy to be opposite laterally - right/caudal (if present) and left/rostral.

The impacting of the bone edges of the temporal bone, and the displacement of the basal fractures, suggests an annular pattern due to violent lateral flexion.  Welcome thoughts.


Earnhardt autopsy below for comparison of ring fracture.

(https://preview.ibb.co/gHw3jH/earnhardt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fjLUPH)


PPS:  It only takes about 150 J or less of slow axial traction to decapitate.  (Ugh.)  Ring fractures are the equivalent of internal decapitation.  A little more energy, and Nikolai's head would have angulated off his body completely to the left.

Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 24, 2018, 03:28:18 PM
Sounds like one hell of a way to over complicate a broken head.   Just my opinion, but there is more then one way to crack an egg without the use atmospheric pressure spikes, or the butt of a rifle. 
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 24, 2018, 04:36:19 PM
 grin1 Rodger that Dodger!  thumb1
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: SteveCalley on April 24, 2018, 07:18:49 PM
You Got That Right.  Good call!
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on April 30, 2018, 05:59:21 AM
100% Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture from hitting head on rock peak. Such damage is not easily explained otherwise. A 3m fall onto rock is very considerable cause.
INDUBITABLY

 clap1


Well, such an injury is strongly indicative of a hard blow to the side of the head, a likely scenario is that this was an impact from a rifle butt.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on April 30, 2018, 06:20:36 AM
Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?

Yes, such can be under certain conditions. In it specify some researches, in particular works of such researchers as W Gavro (France), Tarozy (Austria) and some other.

I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.

There is such hypothesis. I think it is rather probable.

However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.

Why?
There are researches in psychophysiology which confirm that if there are influences on a brain of the person in a resonance with brain biorhythms (scale - or delta - a range) such effect is possible quite. The infrasound which influences the person with certain frequency and intensity level, creates accumulation of a certain dose of absorption then there is an effect reminding "panic". It is called the changed Altered state of consciousness (ASС). Such medical researches too exist.
As mathematicians speak: on a place there are all necessary and sufficient conditions for such event.

These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us.

Nature influence on the person is so great that it does not depend on its skills and desire and I.Q. Possibilities of the person to resist of the nature are limited. They are not infinite.

But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.

It is possible provided that their actions are made reasonably. However ASC it not so non-realised actions, and finish submission to instincts. In other words, it is sequence of behaviour which is caused by psychology - "panic" condition - an involuntary condition of fear - desire to escape from at place where there is a false sensation of danger.

The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)


It is quite a stretch to state that nine resourceful people were scared by the alleged sonic phenomenon to the point that they even cut open their own tent and went out in the cold. It should also be mentioned that there is no proof whatsoever that the cutting of the tent were done by the hikers. Whether or not the tent was cut from the inside - and that is highly uncertain because there was no proper scientific investigation of the tent and its cuts - there is no reason to believe that the students did it. The assumption that the students cut their tent is a good example of an unfounded and rash conclusion.

As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.

In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.

There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on April 30, 2018, 06:33:05 AM
Proofs do not arise from stubbornness.

Non acceptance of proofs always is a persistence direct consequence.

Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture contiguous with a ruinous temporal fracture. Such damage is not easily explained.

If we speak about crisis of basis of the skull (CBS) which was described by the forensic scientist it is easy to explain it. On a position of biomechanics of a skull at blow.
CBS this accompanying destruction at that trauma that was at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles (getting wound of a skull in the right temporal area). The reason that the arch of a skull and the basis it is uniform mechanical system. Therefore at loading on the skull arch, the skull basis too it is deformed. If the module of elasticity of the arch of a skull on an order (in 10 times) is more than at the skull basis deformation of the basis of a skull will be in 10 times more too.
Presence of a through breach of the arch of a skull testifies that deformation of the basis of a skull will be more than critical and there will be a destruction of the basis of a skull.
Energy required for such destruction is small - approximately 35 … 40 J. It is equivalent to head falling (the weight is equal about 5 kg) from height about 0,8 m.
It is all is simple enough laws which are studied in the biomechanic of a head as it is physical model.
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.

A 3m fall onto rock is very unlikely cause.

For this purpose, what to receive such trauma it would be not necessary to fall from height of 3 m. the height of own growth and a sharp stone Suffices. For example, for Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles this stone was 2 х 3,5 sm ( 0.78 x 1.3 in) it see had a pyramid-shaped the form. Such as the expert in forensic medicine has described a getting wound at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. In addition there was still a developed area of crisis 7 х 9 sm ( 2.75 x 3.5 in) which is secondary at a breach of a temporal part of a skull.
Such trauma was easy for developed on the third line of a stone ridge. As is in this picture:

(https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89bet.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c33/1804/1f/9bfb3bbf89be.jpg)

On this image show the quantity of snow more than was in 1959.

Coral Hull saying demon-possessed Yeti just as likely. 

Yeti is not my basis. I am technical physicist, instead of cryptozoologist.
And with “the black climber” I was not in time yet will get acquainted still too.  grin1

Physics is physics, no?

What exactly is not pleasant to you in such section of technical physics, how is biomechanic?

Also if people fly for an irrational reason, would they not fly in an irrational manner?

It is abstractly possible to tell everything. Let better speak for the obvious reasons, but with sufficient degree of knowledge in a conversation theme.


- What is the likelihood that Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles fell and hit a rock with the side of his head with the resultant injuries? There was not a true precipice at the spot, it was a relatively steep slope. Even if it is physically possible that the head might hit a rock if the person rolled extremely fast against it, such a scenario is far less likely than the more probable scenario that he was forcefully hit on his head with killing intent by another human being.

Why dismiss the more probable possibility?

From the start of the investigation in 1959, the authorities evidently tried to conceal the fact of murder. I think it is time to honestly re-examine all the old and new evidence, and accept that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no mere accident. We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 30, 2018, 02:30:26 PM
 dunno1

google-foo

http://buffalonews.com/1997/03/28/man-79-fractures-skull-in-fall/

https://herald-review.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-suffers-fractured-skull-after-being-shoved-in-decatur-bar/article_7a8d4d68-dc6e-52c6-abbb-9dba6f1e3b1d.html

https://cdllife.com/2017/man-fell-off-the-back-of-a-milk-truck-and-fractured-skull-on-interstate-490/

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/man-fractured-skull-after-crashing-14341012

Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 30, 2018, 02:35:05 PM
Dont get me wrong....   I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle?  How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?

We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on April 30, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
Dont get me wrong....   I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle?  How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?

We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.


I fully agree with the above, it may have been be any kind of hard object. We cannot know with certainty what it was.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on May 09, 2018, 11:48:05 AM

- What is the likelihood that Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles fell and hit a rock with the side of his head with the resultant injuries?

If to contemplate a problem from the point of view of biomechanics of a trauma it is equal practically 100 %. Well, well, let's take 97,5 %, and we will leave 2,5 % on uncertainty. But it should be proved rigidly. With instructions of the concrete reason, motive, a subject causing a trauma and mechanics of its reception.
Meanwhile I have a calculation (and I resulted it in last post), a rigid substantiation and place presence where such trauma could be received.
That you can result alternative. Except the general statements and the statement "I trust-not I trust"?

There was not a true precipice at the spot, it was a relatively steep slope.

At last post I have described in detail all. Please read once again and try to understand process details. For reception of such trauma the big inclination is not necessary. Final speed (speed of impact) is got sufficient for reception of such trauma even under usual conditions of district.

Even if it is physically possible that the head might hit a rock if the person rolled extremely fast against it, such a scenario is far less likely than the more probable scenario that he was forcefully hit on his head with killing intent by another human being.

Not probabilities define possibility of reception of such trauma. And conditions of district and the mechanic of event.
As to blow by other person there the mechanics is that that factors which the extraneous person to create not in a condition be required. Especially if to it to add conditions in which there were all events. You simply not so well represent, both the first, and the second. I would tell about it conditions especially.

From the start of the investigation in 1959, the authorities evidently tried to conceal the fact of murder. I think it is time to honestly re-examine all the old and new evidence, and accept that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no mere accident. We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened.

Before speak about murder, it is necessary have the fact of such event. If who that is simple not a condition to explain that he does not understand, he starts to invent other reasons. Which on a place of events are simply impossible. If you have visited on a place in the winter and is simple walk on a slope in the afternoon, bat many inventions would simply be dissolved. And there events occurred at night (in a night-time), at very bad weather and in a condition of altered state of consciousness  (ASС).
If you speak: " We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened." (c), it quite right. Only they should not that who has thought up that, and that has occurred actually.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on May 09, 2018, 11:49:40 AM
Dont get me wrong....   I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle?  How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?

We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.

In last post  WAB on April 22, 2018, 03:11:47 PM I have in detail described a subject to which such trauma could be put. Neither the butt, nor baseball bat do not correspond to these conditions. It is necessary to understand in detail details and trauma subtleties before to assume a subject.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on May 09, 2018, 11:51:35 AM
Dont get me wrong....   I believe it is very possible another human could have intentionally caused this scull fracture. BUT, why does it 'have' to be the butt of a rifle?  How do you know it was not a baseball bat size frozen log, or a bowling ball size rock someone smashed him with after pinning him down in a fight?

We simply do not know, and thats the only fact I see here.


I fully agree with the above, it may have been be any kind of hard object. We cannot know with certainty what it was.

If professionally to understand details and subtleties of a trauma described of expert in forensic medicine we can say with the big confidence that it could be.
And I have resulted an approximate place of a trauma and real conditions on a place of events. What is incorrectly?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on May 09, 2018, 12:12:08 PM
It is quite a stretch to state that nine resourceful people were scared by the alleged sonic phenomenon to the point that they even cut open their own tent and went out in the cold.

And in what there is a problem if there are also scientific researches altered state of consciousness  (ASС). Yes, it is an act as which it is possible to consider practically as suicide, but at ASС, the person does not understand that it does.

It should also be mentioned that there is no proof whatsoever that the cutting of the tent were done by the hikers. Whether or not the tent was cut from the inside - and that is highly uncertain because there was no proper scientific investigation of the tent and its cuts - there is no reason to believe that the students did it.

It is possible to doubt in everything. Even that this group in general existed. But it is not a constructive approach. There is a fact that the tent has been cut. Was examination which has unequivocally drawn the conclusion is spent криминалистическая that tent cut from within. That it there was who that another to declare it is not proved, because
1.It has Not been found traces of anybody another. And they remain always
2.The Area is so remote also approaches to it are well supervised by local residents what to speak about strangers is is to think out unnecessary essence. It is not a constructive approach also.


The assumption that the students cut their tent is a good example of an unfounded and rash conclusion.

If to consider a situation, conditionally speaking, “lying on a sofa" their many acts are not rational. Absolutely clearly that this action is not correct and even mortally dangerous, but in altered state of consciousness  (ASС) they only and could arrive. It when the instinct of self-preservation with imaginary danger of death forces to run from this place, without realising consequences.

As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.

I ask one more time: why you so consider? Such negation needs a rigid substantiation. Last time you have not answered to this question.

In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.

There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.

The information from meteorological stations which are in several tens (or hundreds) kilometres (or miles) from a place of events is big error to take. Besides, the place of events is in a mountainous part, and without wood. And meteorological stations are on plain, in a low part of district and in wood.
In addition it is necessary to notice that the Ural mountains on this site are border of two different climatic zones.
Before the Ural mountains influence of a current Gulf Stream in the northwest is felt. It is more damp and warm zone.
Behind the Ural mountains there is essentially colder zone which has influence from the Central Arctic regions. Collision of sites of weather leads to that it is a zone where are available very strong a wind. To 30 m/s at a difference of temperatures (and an arrangement of zones of a cyclone and an anticyclone) with very big gradient. We well observed it in January 2015 when on a place of events there were a wind even more than 30 m/s, and according to all specified meteorological stations of speed of a wind did not exceed 10 m/s.
•Look at video of similar winds in https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing . The video shooting was spent at all at the strongest winds …
There more than enough conditions for occurrence infrasound.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 09, 2018, 02:33:06 PM

From the start of the investigation in 1959, the authorities evidently tried to conceal the fact of murder. I think it is time to honestly re-examine all the old and new evidence, and accept that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no mere accident. We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened.

Before speak about murder, it is necessary have the fact of such event. If who that is simple not a condition to explain that he does not understand, he starts to invent other reasons. Which on a place of events are simply impossible. If you have visited on a place in the winter and is simple walk on a slope in the afternoon, bat many inventions would simply be dissolved. And there events occurred at night (in a night-time), at very bad weather and in a condition of altered state of consciousness  (ASС).
If you speak: " We are in fact obliged to do so, since the relatives of the unfortunate students have a legitimate right to know what actually happened." (c), it quite right. Only they should not that who has thought up that, and that has occurred actually.


We can safely assume that most thinking people are fully aware that it is physically possible that a person can fall from standing height and receive a deadly injury to his or her head under certain circumstances. It can happen if other energetic factors like the impetus of a strong wind or directional body rotation fortifies the energy that propels the movementl. Such biomechanical principles are used in close combat systems like jiu jitsu.

But to take it for granted that Thibeaux-Brignolles received his injury that way, and to proceed by saying that nine students died on an evening because of a series of coincidences of physically possible but highly improbable events, is to fly in the face of all available evidence and misrepresent it. That is the opposite of seeking the truth.

It is contrary to the interest of science, knowledge and truth to cultivate preconceived assumptions that the tragedy must have been an accident and thereby dismiss the extensive evidence that points in the direction that a criminal act took place at the Dyatlov pass on that fateful night in the early spring of 1959.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 09, 2018, 03:21:02 PM


As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.

I ask one more time: why you so consider? Such negation needs a rigid substantiation. Last time you have not answered to this question.

In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.

There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.

The information from meteorological stations which are in several tens (or hundreds) kilometres (or miles) from a place of events is big error to take. Besides, the place of events is in a mountainous part, and without wood. And meteorological stations are on plain, in a low part of district and in wood.
In addition it is necessary to notice that the Ural mountains on this site are border of two different climatic zones.
Before the Ural mountains influence of a current Gulf Stream in the northwest is felt. It is more damp and warm zone.
Behind the Ural mountains there is essentially colder zone which has influence from the Central Arctic regions. Collision of sites of weather leads to that it is a zone where are available very strong a wind. To 30 m/s at a difference of temperatures (and an arrangement of zones of a cyclone and an anticyclone) with very big gradient. We well observed it in January 2015 when on a place of events there were a wind even more than 30 m/s, and according to all specified meteorological stations of speed of a wind did not exceed 10 m/s.
•Look at video of similar winds in https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing . The video shooting was spent at all at the strongest winds …
There more than enough conditions for occurrence infrasound.


I agree fully with you on one aspect in the above: Because of the typography in mountain areas and in particular when there is a large massive where air is coming in from several directions with different temperatur and humidity, the weather can often change very fast and unpredictably. You are wholly correct in that observation.

However, the significance of the reports from the surrounding areas is that even if it is theoretically possible that there may locally have been a stormy weather in the Dyatlov pass area that possibility is not supported by the reports from the weather stations. So where does that leave us? There is a "might be" here, but the trouble is that the alleged storm is not indicated by any sources or traces. On the contrary, the conditions around the tent tend to indicate that there had been absolutely no snowstorm on February 1. Indications would rather point to the opposite: If there had been a violent storm on that evening, the footprints from the nine students down the slope towards the forest area would certainly have been erased that same night.

Further: I do not mean to be rude, but it has to be said that the videos presented above are not evidence of anything. These videos merely show us what it looks like in a particular type of weather. It does not prove what conditions were present at the Dyatlov pass on the evening when the students perished. It does not remotely prove that infrasound was the reason why the students left their tent.

Ever since 1959, official versions of what happened have maintained that the tragedy was due to accidents and "a series of mistakes by Igor Dyatlov," and it has been confirmed that it was signalled from above that the conclusion of the incomplete investigation should be that it was all an accident and that nothing else than natural forces were involved. Today we have theories about man-eating yetis, ball lighting, UFOs landing and killing the students, nonexistent fires and smoke in the tent, infrasound effects that supposedly scared nine adult people out of a tent and made them flee a mile away to their death in the cold, and even fighting between the students themselves has been proposed as the cause of the tragedy. It is perhaps time to try a more analytic and realistic approach, in accordance with the ideals and demands of fact-based science.

Whenever extraordinary claims are made, these claims must be backed up by some extraordinary strong evidence. To claim that infrasound was the culprit, and to further claim that the students were so mentally disordered with an altered consciousness that they cut their own tent and fled far away to a certain death, must be considered extraordinary claims. By the way: Even if the tent was cut from the inside, it still does not tell us who did the cutting. We do not know who cut the tent, and we do not know that the students left the tent throught the cuts either. This is just one of many unwarranted assumptions.

To finally claim that all the subsequent injuries (which were all consistent with a lethal attack by humans with evil intent) were due to an extremely improbable series of sub-events that by coincidence worked together to take nine lives in the course of a few hours, is so extraordinary that it exceeds the border of the realistic by quite some margin. Like ball lighting, the infrasound theory certainly makes a good history, but with risk of being offensive I can only say that the infrasound theory not only lacks substantial evidence. The hypothetical course of events that has to accompany the infrasound theory is neither indicated nor at all probable, and this is also shown by all the fantastic explanations that have to be invoked to dismiss the evidence that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was an act of violence amounting to merciless homicide.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2018, 12:43:00 PM

Unfortunately I have possibility to write very seldom on this site.
Therefore I ask to excuse for a delay and the big text at once.
The text is difficult for breaking under paragraphs, therefore I will give completely the objections and judgements.



It is quite a stretch to state that nine resourceful people were scared by the alleged sonic phenomenon to the point that they even cut open their own tent and went out in the cold. It should also be mentioned that there is no proof whatsoever that the cutting of the tent were done by the hikers. Whether or not the tent was cut from the inside - and that is highly uncertain because there was no proper scientific investigation of the tent and its cuts - there is no reason to believe that the students did it. The assumption that the students cut their tent is a good example of an unfounded and rash conclusion.

As for the possibility that infrasound altered the minds of the nine unfortunates so that they performed a series of irrational actions, the one factor is that it is a very unlikely scenario that all nine students were so frightened that they not only fled far away from the tent but also did not return when it would soon after such an exit become clear that there was no danger present.

In addition it is physically impossible that such infrasound could occur on that day since the velocity of the wind on February 1 were insufficient to create the phenomenon. Svetlana Oss refers to the registered reports from three different weather stations: "Nyaksimvol - 6 m/sec, Ivdel - 5 m/sec and Troitsk-Pecherski 5.5 m/sec." According to the proponents of the infrasound theory themselves such velocities cannot create infrasound, and even if these three weather stations are not situated at the Dyatlov pass it has been shown that the combined data from these three stations together give a pretty accurate picture of the conditions at the site of the Dyatlov incident.

There simply was not enough wind in the area during the fateful night to create the hypothetical infrasound effect.

Any proofs does not exist. That there was that that another, except a case of natural damage. It is thought out by people who cannot understand physics of process of reception of damages under natural conditions.
Proofs are not conversations on theme, and material traces which are a consequence of real actions, instead of thought up.
Besides, they would like to find what that criminal events. So it is more interesting to them to understand this case. But between desires and truth there is a science which is called biomechanics of reception of a trauma. To a natural case detailed consideration of topology of traumas deviates. It is impossible to strike in a ju-jitsu a plane of very big sizes or a narrow superfirm subject of the conic form 3,5 х 2 sm (1,5 х 1 in). It will be surrealism.
To accept or not to accept as obvious to any person, it is subjective opinion. The opinion depends only on desire of the person, instead of from an objective reality.
You persistently do not want to accept a condition and the district characteristic because you them did not see and cannot imagine them.

There are no numerous certificates and, especially, objective data that it was a crime. It simply ideas of people which gravitate to conspirology. I studied this case directly on a place, professionally was engaged in researches in the biomechanic, studied all available documents and talked practically to all participants of events who were live to 2006, any objective certificates was not present. There are very indistinct memoirs which are accompanied by touch of hearings and legends. But no confirmed certificates are present. Many people far from professionals think out any improbable versions which are impossible actually. There is no objective information more. I hope that you understand a difference that what that the person speaks words, and in practice it appears, it not so. It is called as subjective opinion. More often this opinion appears incorrect. As it are takes place in this case.

Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on June 13, 2018, 12:50:32 PM

I agree fully with you on one aspect in the above: Because of the typography in mountain areas and in particular when there is a large massive where air is coming in from several directions with different temperatur and humidity, the weather can often change very fast and unpredictably. You are wholly correct in that observation.

However, the significance of the reports from the surrounding areas is that even if it is theoretically possible that there may locally have been a stormy weather in the Dyatlov pass area that possibility is not supported by the reports from the weather stations. So where does that leave us? There is a "might be" here, but the trouble is that the alleged storm is not indicated by any sources or traces. On the contrary, the conditions around the tent tend to indicate that there had been absolutely no snowstorm on February 1. Indications would rather point to the opposite: If there had been a violent storm on that evening, the footprints from the nine students down the slope towards the forest area would certainly have been erased that same night.

Further: I do not mean to be rude, but it has to be said that the videos presented above are not evidence of anything. These videos merely show us what it looks like in a particular type of weather. It does not prove what conditions were present at the Dyatlov pass on the evening when the students perished. It does not remotely prove that infrasound was the reason why the students left their tent.

Ever since 1959, official versions of what happened have maintained that the tragedy was due to accidents and "a series of mistakes by Igor Dyatlov," and it has been confirmed that it was signalled from above that the conclusion of the incomplete investigation should be that it was all an accident and that nothing else than natural forces were involved. Today we have theories about man-eating yetis, ball lighting, UFOs landing and killing the students, nonexistent fires and smoke in the tent, infrasound effects that supposedly scared nine adult people out of a tent and made them flee a mile away to their death in the cold, and even fighting between the students themselves has been proposed as the cause of the tragedy. It is perhaps time to try a more analytic and realistic approach, in accordance with the ideals and demands of fact-based science.

Whenever extraordinary claims are made, these claims must be backed up by some extraordinary strong evidence. To claim that infrasound was the culprit, and to further claim that the students were so mentally disordered with an altered consciousness that they cut their own tent and fled far away to a certain death, must be considered extraordinary claims. By the way: Even if the tent was cut from the inside, it still does not tell us who did the cutting. We do not know who cut the tent, and we do not know that the students left the tent throught the cuts either. This is just one of many unwarranted assumptions.

To finally claim that all the subsequent injuries (which were all consistent with a lethal attack by humans with evil intent) were due to an extremely improbable series of sub-events that by coincidence worked together to take nine lives in the course of a few hours, is so extraordinary that it exceeds the border of the realistic by quite some margin. Like ball lighting, the infrasound theory certainly makes a good history, but with risk of being offensive I can only say that the infrasound theory not only lacks substantial evidence. The hypothetical course of events that has to accompany the infrasound theory is neither indicated nor at all probable, and this is also shown by all the fantastic explanations that have to be invoked to dismiss the evidence that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was an act of violence amounting to merciless homicide.

I wrote that did interolation analysis of the information from nine "nearest" meteorological stations which are around. I have written "nearest" so-called because the nearest is on distance ~ 90 km (~60 miles). In addition, we observed weather in the winter 2013, 2014 and 2015 and compared that has been fixed on "the nearest" meteorological stations. Then having the information from them and actual weather on a place, we consider what it there could be with big a probability on February, 01st and 02 1959 by analogy. What to object concerning such way, it is necessary to have a minimum 10 times bigger volume of supervision and accurately to specify to us in what there is our error. Other objections simply are not serious and is estimated only by that the opponent wishes that that to object (for the process of objection), but it does not have any information.
To take the information on weather for 100 km from a place, it is equivalent to that it is necessary to take it in Africa. It will be another anyway.

No, it not so. I had to observe similar traces even longer time later and at strong winds. Besides, traces have remained in such places where on them the strong wind did not operate. These are features of a microrelief. They have disappeared for two reasons:
1. Them fell asleep snow and them could not find.
2. Them has destroyed a wind. If you read criminal case that should know that they were not at once about tent. It is that case when from has brought snow because at once on a tent place the slope excess (a little more abrupt part) begins and there snow was postponed. Therefore them there have not seen. Then there was a wavy slope where traces have remained in a concave part of a slope and have been destroyed in a convex part of a slope. After the first bushes have begun, traces have been again filled up by snow. There there is a zone of adjournment of snow. Under snow they were, but they could not be found. Generally speaking, traces were only small sites. They were far apart. But there was a possibility to track a direction and a movement trajectory very approximately. To track only on very small site.
I do not assert that there there was a storm how much I investigated conditions, it turns out so that the wind was ~ 12 … 15 m/s (knots) and temperature ~-15 … 18С (F) on a tent place. In process of movement downwards, the wind has stopped a little above a place where have found Zinu, and the temperature was more low. By my approximate calculations, the cedar practically did not have a wind, but the temperature was ~-20 … 22С (F). It has been checked up in January 2015 when above (where there was a tent) there was a wind 20 … 25 m/s (knots).
Nevertheless, even absence of a storm creates conditions for this purpose that there would be an infrasound. But its parametres in the given conditions very much depend on many factors. For example, from a direction of a wind, temperature of a stream of air, humidity (depend on density of air which very much depends on humidity) an interval in flaws and etc. more precisely

This video is a weather illustration when many surrounding meteorological stations gave speed of a wind nearby 3. 5 km/s. And as to proofs, to be exact, as they are perceived by different people, this concept very subjective. For example, if will occur (I do not want it, this offer hypothetical) that in the winter, on the same place, happens too most with other group always there will be people who will confirm: «It not the proof, the head had other surname … year not is 1959 …. This group not from university UPI … and etc.»
And, even if in it there will be 9 persons, dates and weather … will coincide.

1. No official version existed and is not present in the nature in general. In total article of criminal case that has occurred is written absolutely precisely. But it not concrete instructions on the reason. Therefore everyone finishes thinking about all happened how he wants.
2.  Igor Dyatlov did not make any errors. If you them name, will be the first who could make it. I well enough know all details of a route and I have level of the Master on ski travel already more than 40 years. Those opinions that you read, are no more than personal opinions and they are erroneous. I can prove you it, only I should understand that you have high enough skill level on the given travel. Otherwise it will be conversation about what that concrete, and is simple for the sake of conversation process.

Well so I to you also cite exclusively scientific data. And the information received directly in a place of events in similar conditions. But it does not mean that it is necessary to use any unchecked or impossible information in the nature. And what you can offer? Meanwhile I did not see any answer to some concrete questions which I set in last letters.

And what does not suit you in this case? That you tell all should be made and in other versions. However there it does not turn out at all a logical chain of events. For example, if you want to prove murder should show the real reason because of what it has been made. Then should show possibility to make such on a place of events and the same conditions. But even with the first point (reason) there will be insuperable difficulties. If you consider that all has been made simply because so it wanted, it is very naive representations.
And whenever possible simply to come on this place, you cannot offer anything at all. Because do not know logistics and movement conditions there.

Let's tell all precisely? You do not know it. I know what to get imperceptibly to this area and to find tent at night on a slope it is impossible. As the proof I am ready to see it on a place of events in the winter when you there will arrive. And to get you there should the same as there was group Djatlova, and after it your villains.
You are agree?

Anything improbable there was not. All chain of events turns out naturally. In all it is possible easily it will be convinced there on a place, of winter conditions. But you did not do it, and I did it some times. Therefore it turns out that you show only words which do not prove to be true practice, and I show the supervision on place with the big statistics.

What is the theory of "a shone sphere»? That theory is not present. There are many conversations that where that that was shone. But anything concrete it has not been told. It not the theory, it is simple conversations. There are attempts to prove what that a hypothesis that Woodpeckers the command was lost from what that shone, but there too only one conversations. The facts are absent completely. It has no relation to an infrasound. For a long time already have understood that supervision of these of "shone spheres» to within minutes have coincided with event of start of rockets from the cosmodrome Baikonur. Other supervision was not, there were only conversations about them. But no acknowledgement are present. There are only conversations about it.
You suggest to consider conversations by the facts?

I asked to tell it already some times: you can result what concrete objections of probability of an infrasound? While you tell only the general words in which there is nothing concrete. If it simply your opinion anybody cannot forbid it. However it is not necessary to give out it for what that an objective estimation.
The course of events is already described for a long time, but you did not read it. It is in Russian. I have no possibility it to translate and adapt for understanding specially for you. There very much great volume of the text.
I understand what to convince you is useless, therefore and I am not going to do it later.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Morski on August 17, 2018, 06:19:07 AM
Hello. WAB, I`ve red your discussion with mr. Per, and both of you give interesting food for thought.
I find your opinion and explanation for the Dyatlov tragedy very interesting. To be honest, ever since I am familiar with the case, I have never thought about the actual biomechanics of physical injuries and the probability of how and when the Dyatlov group suffered their injuries. As far as I can tell from your words, it is highly unlikely, that the group died because of murder from other human beings, and the most probable reason is the impact of Infrasound and the subsequent effecst and misfortunate chain of events.
What is your opinion about the investigation itself? Why the people who were involved in the investigation had to sign documents for 25 years of non-disclouser of information about the incident, and the area was closed for several years afterwards? I really want to know what are your thoughts.
Greetings from Bulgaria!
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on August 22, 2018, 01:12:24 PM
Hello, Морски !

Hello. WAB, I`ve red your discussion with mr. Per, and both of you give interesting food for thought.
I find your opinion and explanation for the Dyatlov tragedy very interesting. To be honest, ever since I am familiar with the case, I have never thought about the actual biomechanics of physical injuries and the probability of how and when the Dyatlov group suffered their injuries. As far as I can tell from your words, it is highly unlikely, that the group died because of murder from other human beings, and the most probable reason is the impact of Infrasound and the subsequent effecst and misfortunate chain of events.

For me very interesting your understanding of a problem and opinion about it. Really hypothesis about Infrasound gives the chance without everyone superfluous essence explain all from the beginning to the end absolutely natural order. You have written about it too. Only it is necessary understand that except Infrasound and its actions there was one more considerable factor - a cold complicated by a wind in the top part of a slope. And still it is necessary to understand that all occurred in a night-time as there in January and the beginning of February light day proceeds only 6 … 6,5 hours. In the rest of time it is dark. The moon that day should ascend only after 4 hours АМ.

The question of get traumas too not so is combined, if it do to estimate on base of biomechanics. If you can read in Russian, I can send the reference to the big article about these traumas. For a long time ago I freely read Bulgarian magazine « Радио, Телевизия, Електроника », and I would not have problems with that that all to understand very well. I hope as in Bulgaria still can read on Russian and understand all correctly.

I will answer on your questions:

What is your opinion about the investigation itself?

I have not so well understood a question. What do you mean? A criminal investigation?
Then I can tell that it is spent well enough. I can compare that was in many similar cases (I have an expert about such 20 cases), from them I dealt with investigation in 10 … 12. There was much more admissions of the necessary information and investigation defects. All concern in specific conditions and unprepared of city inspectors to work in mountains and on a frost. Because such cases are very unique. Them are units or some tens on all world during more than 50 years.


Why the people who were involved in the investigation had to sign documents for 25 years of non-disclouser of information about the incident,

It is one of widespread myths in this history. Anybody from searchers of such subscription did not give. Because anybody did not demand it from them. I have personally interrogated many person from teams of searchers (Bartolomey, Karelin, Brusnitsin, Slobtsov, Sharavin, Mohov, Askinadzi, Koptelov …) and Yury Yudin. Anybody from them such subscription did not give also it at anybody did not demand. In criminal case there are 2 subscriptions (Maslennikov and Yarovoy), but these are subscriptions only about nondisclosure of secrecy of the investigation for a while when it went. There articles of the law which it concern are accurately specified.

and the area was closed for several years afterwards?

It too a myth on one half. How you represent possibility close not occupied territory of a taiga size is about Belgium? There have simply forbidden to direct travellers. But only officially. It influenced only that for these travel they could not raise sports degree. And it is all. The one who wanted to pass there without any official registration of travel, that could go there freely. Then (from March till September 1959), some groups of travellers there went.

I really want to know what are your thoughts.

It is very indistinct concept of question. If you formulate what that concrete questions I will try to answer them. Thanks for attention to my modest opinion.

Greetings from Bulgaria!

Big gratitude for it too. I was not travel to Bulgaria, unfortunately. It has not turned out. And very much I regret.

PS. I have problems with access to the Internet, therefore ask to excuse that I answer not so quickly and in detail. I can come on this site seldom.

Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on August 22, 2018, 06:48:17 PM
How does a noise account for all the bodily injuries.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on August 23, 2018, 09:22:39 AM
How does a noise account for all the bodily injuries.

I already wrote about it on April, 19th, 2018, 6:25:09 AM the Answer # 5
Shortly it is possible answer so: Infrasound only promoted that they would escape from tent in that kind in what them have found. All the rest were made by the nature: a cold, a wind, darkness, a stressful condition.
It is all very visually if you are on that slope in the winter of January or February.
But it is very difficult for feeling if you are at home, in heat and behind the computer.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on August 24, 2018, 04:41:55 PM
I do not subscribe to the belief that NOISE was responsible for the chain of events. I believe that THE EVENT that caused them to leave the tent also continued to play its part throughout their ordeal.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: CalzagheChick on August 28, 2018, 01:22:32 AM
And clearly you have no idea exactly who Vladimir (WAB) is either.... Here's a hint: it is not advisable to dismiss his extensive notes/work/personal experience/actual photographic evidence from his MANY trips to the Dyatlov Pass in favor of a 2014 mockumentary by the Discovery Channel about a mythical creature known as the Yeti. neg1

But that's none of my business....
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on August 28, 2018, 06:41:12 PM
Actually maybe there was a noise , the noise of an animal of some kind, but not infrasound.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Morski on August 29, 2018, 01:15:55 AM
Hello, Морски !

Hello. WAB, I`ve red your discussion with mr. Per, and both of you give interesting food for thought.
I find your opinion and explanation for the Dyatlov tragedy very interesting. To be honest, ever since I am familiar with the case, I have never thought about the actual biomechanics of physical injuries and the probability of how and when the Dyatlov group suffered their injuries. As far as I can tell from your words, it is highly unlikely, that the group died because of murder from other human beings, and the most probable reason is the impact of Infrasound and the subsequent effecst and misfortunate chain of events.

For me very interesting your understanding of a problem and opinion about it. Really hypothesis about Infrasound gives the chance without everyone superfluous essence explain all from the beginning to the end absolutely natural order. You have written about it too. Only it is necessary understand that except Infrasound and its actions there was one more considerable factor - a cold complicated by a wind in the top part of a slope. And still it is necessary to understand that all occurred in a night-time as there in January and the beginning of February light day proceeds only 6 … 6,5 hours. In the rest of time it is dark. The moon that day should ascend only after 4 hours АМ.

The question of get traumas too not so is combined, if it do to estimate on base of biomechanics. If you can read in Russian, I can send the reference to the big article about these traumas. For a long time ago I freely read Bulgarian magazine « Радио, Телевизия, Електроника », and I would not have problems with that that all to understand very well. I hope as in Bulgaria still can read on Russian and understand all correctly.

I will answer on your questions:

What is your opinion about the investigation itself?

I have not so well understood a question. What do you mean? A criminal investigation?
Then I can tell that it is spent well enough. I can compare that was in many similar cases (I have an expert about such 20 cases), from them I dealt with investigation in 10 … 12. There was much more admissions of the necessary information and investigation defects. All concern in specific conditions and unprepared of city inspectors to work in mountains and on a frost. Because such cases are very unique. Them are units or some tens on all world during more than 50 years.


Why the people who were involved in the investigation had to sign documents for 25 years of non-disclouser of information about the incident,

It is one of widespread myths in this history. Anybody from searchers of such subscription did not give. Because anybody did not demand it from them. I have personally interrogated many person from teams of searchers (Bartolomey, Karelin, Brusnitsin, Slobtsov, Sharavin, Mohov, Askinadzi, Koptelov …) and Yury Yudin. Anybody from them such subscription did not give also it at anybody did not demand. In criminal case there are 2 subscriptions (Maslennikov and Yarovoy), but these are subscriptions only about nondisclosure of secrecy of the investigation for a while when it went. There articles of the law which it concern are accurately specified.

and the area was closed for several years afterwards?

It too a myth on one half. How you represent possibility close not occupied territory of a taiga size is about Belgium? There have simply forbidden to direct travellers. But only officially. It influenced only that for these travel they could not raise sports degree. And it is all. The one who wanted to pass there without any official registration of travel, that could go there freely. Then (from March till September 1959), some groups of travellers there went.

I really want to know what are your thoughts.

It is very indistinct concept of question. If you formulate what that concrete questions I will try to answer them. Thanks for attention to my modest opinion.

Greetings from Bulgaria!

Big gratitude for it too. I was not travel to Bulgaria, unfortunately. It has not turned out. And very much I regret.

PS. I have problems with access to the Internet, therefore ask to excuse that I answer not so quickly and in detail. I can come on this site seldom.

I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.

By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent. I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.
Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Morski on August 29, 2018, 01:25:00 AM
Actually maybe there was a noise , the noise of an animal of some kind, but not infrasound.

Why so sure, that it is more likely to be a sound from animal, rather then infrasound?
As far as I can tell based on reading about the case and the experiments in the last 4-5 years, the area around Kholat Syakhl is better known for the extremely windy conditions, and not so much for the animals or creatures wandering around. Of course, I cant rule out the posibility of animal sounds, but even more cant rule out the infrasound. 
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on August 29, 2018, 05:25:01 PM
Well its a bit like putting the pieces of a jigsaw together. But there arent too many pieces in the Dyatov Case. Infrasound is not a piece nor is an animal sound. But an animal of some kind could make a noise at THE TENT and then follow through its actions. Infrasound cant follow through its actions.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 09, 2018, 11:58:43 AM
Actually maybe there was a noise , the noise of an animal of some kind, but not infrasound.

And why the sound of animal cannot contain infrasound? Dolphins basically and communicate. But the matter is that on a place there are no animals who could publish such "sounds", because of which Dyatlov group has escaped from the tent. And for availability infrasound a natural origin such conditions are also they is very qualitative.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 09, 2018, 12:07:28 PM

I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.

Certainly, it is possible to explain all quite usually, without presence superfluous essence. However it not so is interesting to some people. They should decide, what they though to receive? Or they want to write the scenario for a detective film (as a variant - for a horror film) or they want to find out that there was actually?.

By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent.

I hope that it is valid so. However while I do not have that interesting on the Bulgarian. That magazine has ceased to be published for a long time already. Or it does not arrive to them to our country …

I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.

It is not important. Any Russian person who wants understand that speak on the Bulgarian is able to do it always in 80 % of cases. I mean a natural dictionary fuse. For a long time already (some tens years) I communicate with my Ukrainian friends everyone in the language. It occurs to those who prefers to speak in an Ukrainian. And we speak and we understand each other absolutely freely without any inconveniences.
So it is not necessary to hesitate to speak, very big percent of our people will quite friendly apprehend about what they speak. If that does not understand that - means will ask again or will specify.
And here with gestures " yes " also " not ", here there can be comical situations. They is at us opposite. :)


Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.

Thanks. Unfortunately now at me it is too much difficulties what to go where that, besides, that is necessary on emergency.

Cheers!

It is a toast?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 09, 2018, 01:06:31 PM
And clearly you have no idea exactly who Vladimir (WAB) is either.... Here's a hint: it is not advisable to dismiss his extensive notes/work/personal experience/actual photographic evidence from his MANY trips to the Dyatlov Pass in favor of a 2014 mockumentary by the Discovery Channel about a mythical creature known as the Yeti. neg1

But that's none of my business....

Dear CalzagheChick, it is not necessary so desperately to attack the person who has other opinion. And my trips, here are weak argument, what to it that that to prove.
Here compete not authorities, and knowledge and erudition. And they at all different. As well as have desires develop it.
The forum is a place where it is necessary to mention the facts and arguments, instead of opinions or belief (as in church). I have stated the opinion and have added personal observations. If with it who that does not agree, it will be its private affair. However this opinion needs check by practice. From the opponent I have not heard what that of convincing objections. I think it exists in the absence of practice in those conditions on which he argues.
As to a film of 2014 of TV of channel Discovery we before a trip on pass in February met in Ekaterinburg about it group.

--------------------------------------
(https://b.radikal.ru/b21/1809/6b/9fececc411f8t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b21/1809/6b/9fececc411f8.jpg)
Group Discovery at conference in UPI February,  01th 2014

And as, we talked, for example, with mansi Valery Aniamov,

-----------------------------------------
 
(https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1809/73/eecafe9af748t.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d14/1809/73/eecafe9af748.jpg)
Valera Anjamov at a sign where his father (it was the participant of searches of Dyatlov group) has extracted a bear in 1958. These are the same signs which were drawn by Zina in the diary. Also be on a photo of Krivonishchenko and Kolevatov. Their decoding me managed to be received in 2008 at brother Valera - Roman. Valera has ended the Moscow university of cinematography as the operator of documentary cinema, then was assistant the deputy Hunts and Mansi region. Now he lives in settlement Ushma because there lives his old mother.

------------------------------------------------------------

which they have interview. He to us has told that they used from this interview only those phrases which were necessary to them for the version about Yeti. And not completely in some places. It as usual becomes on TV. In many places he saw subsequently at all that sense which he wanted to tell. Probably he has not absolutely well understood about what it asked. Or it has not absolutely correctly formulated the answer because he has not understood a question well.
The film has turned out pseudo-documentary really.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on September 10, 2018, 03:55:22 PM
Bears probably hear in the ultrasonic range of 16-20 megahertz.

 "The normal range of human hearing includes sound frequencies from about 20 to about 20,000 waves, or cycles, per second." That is ; about 20 HZ [ HERTZ ] to 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ]. 

Ultrasound waves have a frequency above the normal range of human hearing. That is ; above 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ].

 Infrasound has a frequency below normal hearing. That is ; below 20 HZ [ HERTZ ].
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: cz on September 10, 2018, 04:15:16 PM
Valera Anjamov at a sign where his father (it was the participant of searches of Dyatlov group) has extracted a bear in 1958. These are the same signs which were drawn by Zina in the diary. Also be on a photo of Krivonishchenko and Kolevatov. Their decoding me managed to be received in 2008 at brother Valera - Roman. Valera has ended the Moscow university of cinematography as the operator of documentary cinema, then was assistant the deputy Hunts and Mansi region. Now he lives in settlement Ushma because there lives his old mother.

Dear WAB, very interesting material. It may not be the most fitting thread, but because you mentioned this here, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you write that his father extracted a bear in 1958? Was there one? Do these signs indicate the presence of a bear in Mansi notation?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 11, 2018, 06:28:01 AM
Bears probably hear in the ultrasonic range of 16-20 megahertz.

Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ.

"The normal range of human hearing includes sound frequencies from about 20 to about 20,000 waves, or cycles, per second." That is ; about 20 HZ [ HERTZ ] to 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ]. 

Ultrasound waves have a frequency above the normal range of human hearing. That is ; above 20 KHZ [ KILOHERTZ ].

 Infrasound has a frequency below normal hearing. That is ; below 20 HZ [ HERTZ ].

In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

But we in this theme say not that can be hear the person, and about that what influence has infrasound (below 20 Hz [HERTZ].) on mentality of the person. These researches are very exclusive and not many numerous. Many people usually do not know even very simple properties of infrasound. For example some persons say that they listened to infrasound through ear-phones and have heard nothing and have not felt. But ear-phones  can not reproduce infrasound purely for technical reasons. It is the usual technical physics. Or it is separate sections of reproduce`s acoustics. For reception of good properties of infrasound by artificial way premises where the minimum size (any party is required are necessary!) approximately to 10 times more lengths of a wave of the necessary frequency. For frequency at 6 or 7 Hz the length of wave air (at a sea level) makes 47 … 55 metres (155 … 180 foots), mean, for laboratory the premise of size  minimum 500 х 500 х 500 m (1650 х 1650 х 1650 foots) is required.

Therefore so few direct researches of the necessary ranges of an infrasound in air. They can be made only in the conditions of the nature. And it almost that is impossible. At least because that it is much more than expensively. And, the most important thing, it does not promise what that notable commercial effect. Then for the sake of what they need to be spent?
As you can see here all exists very difficult …
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 11, 2018, 06:32:55 AM
Valera Anjamov at a sign .........

Dear WAB, very interesting material. It may not be the most fitting thread, but because you mentioned this here, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you write that his father extracted a bear in 1958? Was there one? Do these signs indicate the presence of a bear in Mansi notation?

Dear cz! When I will have more time than now, I will try to write in detail about signs of mansi  hunters. On these signs there are marks about when it was time, and how many hunters were on the given hunting. Even is about quantity of dogs which were with them.  grin1
It will be as decoding of those signs which saw and has photographed Dyatlov group.
It is necessary only to a few time instead of wait. I should prepare a lot of the initial information. This theme for me is not the my basic business, therefore I not often write at this forum.

However I think that it not that section of a forum where it is necessary to speak about it. Then let Administrators of this forum will prompt, in what theme it is better do it?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on September 11, 2018, 11:46:42 AM
 WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: CalzagheChick on September 12, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
Actually as I sit here in my special part of the US waiting to get pounded by Hurricane Florence which I probably should have evacuated for days ago, we are reminded of 1989's Hurricane Hugo which butchered our landscape. The thing is, when you read what people have to say about Hurricane Hugo who were here when it struck, they all say about the same thing: it was like very suddenly the sound of a train on their front lawns. I'm talking people who were 12 at the time to much older people like my grandfather: they all say the same thing. It sounded like a train suddenly came through and it was incredible.

So the whole infrasound theory? Although I'm not a fan of it in this case, I definitely know that infrasound is an incredibly frightening phenomenon and it's not just a theoretical thing.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Morski on September 13, 2018, 06:57:11 AM

I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.

Certainly, it is possible to explain all quite usually, without presence superfluous essence. However it not so is interesting to some people. They should decide, what they though to receive? Or they want to write the scenario for a detective film (as a variant - for a horror film) or they want to find out that there was actually?.

By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent.

I hope that it is valid so. However while I do not have that interesting on the Bulgarian. That magazine has ceased to be published for a long time already. Or it does not arrive to them to our country …

I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.

It is not important. Any Russian person who wants understand that speak on the Bulgarian is able to do it always in 80 % of cases. I mean a natural dictionary fuse. For a long time already (some tens years) I communicate with my Ukrainian friends everyone in the language. It occurs to those who prefers to speak in an Ukrainian. And we speak and we understand each other absolutely freely without any inconveniences.
So it is not necessary to hesitate to speak, very big percent of our people will quite friendly apprehend about what they speak. If that does not understand that - means will ask again or will specify.
And here with gestures " yes " also " not ", here there can be comical situations. They is at us opposite. :)


Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.

Thanks. Unfortunately now at me it is too much difficulties what to go where that, besides, that is necessary on emergency.

Cheers!

It is a toast?

Yes, I am sticking to more reasonable explanations for what might have happened back in 1959 as well. It makes sense to try every natural explanation first, before considering legendary creatures or alien forces. Anyway.
Радио и Телевизия ceased to exist around 2002 if I remember correctly, so thats why wont see it anymore.
About the visit to Bulgaria, I was just saying that it is cheaper and faster to travel nowadays, of course, if you have good reason to do it.  wink1
As for the "Cheers" , it is a toast. Nice to talk to you, sir.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on September 13, 2018, 01:01:58 PM
Yes infrasound may be very frightening in certain situations. So could the roar of a bear in certain situations etc etc.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: CalzagheChick on September 14, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
And I'd be more inclined to believe that a frightening sound was caused by raging winds before I'd ever believe that same frightening sound came from any cryptids (but alas a bear wouldn't be a cryptid however I have a very specific reasons why I don't believe it was a bear which I addressed in general discussions)
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on September 26, 2018, 12:05:30 PM

..........................................

Yes, I am sticking to more reasonable explanations for what might have happened back in 1959 as well. It makes sense to try every natural explanation first, before considering legendary creatures or alien forces. Anyway.

This absolutely correct behaviour. Otherwise it is possible to confuse all this history definitively. It and so is strongly confused.

Радио и Телевизия ceased to exist around 2002 if I remember correctly, so thats why wont see it anymore.

Probably, for this reason I cannot read it now. kewl1

About the visit to Bulgaria, I was just saying that it is cheaper and faster to travel nowadays, of course, if you have good reason to do it.  wink1

Yes, I so have understood it. Unfortunately, I am valid I can not visit now it … bang1

As for the "Cheers" , it is a toast.

Take health now, sir!

Nice to talk to you, sir.

I thank you, sir!
You are very kind.  clap1

.......................

It is my time out now... cry2
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on September 28, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc. So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ?  Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers. 
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on October 07, 2018, 11:02:28 AM
I have passed this message. Very much in vain.

WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.

I got it. I had very well-founded suspicions that you try, as at us our speak «дурковать (gurgle - in English)» or (if on slang) « лепить горбатого (throw dust into people’s eyes - in English) ».
Excuse me if I have resulted wrong English termы.
Only it is necessary to continue to do it very carefully (and to put smilies), differently it is possible to pass easily as babbler. Then sensible readers will simply cease to pay attention to you.
I would like to learn, what at you is preparation in section of radio physics and biology of bears?
And as:
1.In what place of a bear there are aerials of these ranges of this radio frequencies?  grin1
2.What type these aerials: "Array”, “magnetic loops”,  “downhill ray”, "dipole", “Yagi-Uda”, “ Rubber Ducky” ?  grin1
3.What sensitivity of receivers and efficiency of transmitters?  grin1
4.Modulation of signals there sideband or there is available upper sideband (USB) with lower sideband (LSB) or the are double sidebandamplitude modulation (DSB-AM)?  grin1
5.What range of a radio communication in the conditions of mountains, type of what in Northern Ural Mountains?  grin1
6.And the most important thing: I would like to learn what system of coding of his signals?  grin1
Maybe it all is useful to me at defence against bears at a following exit in that area.  grin1
If you do not answer these questions, at you very much an every prospect to receive a rank which I have designated in lines above.  grin1
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on October 07, 2018, 11:06:42 AM
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.


It is good. Even if they about what knew that, as they can that that to do if there was an irritant which could not allow work well for a brain?

So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ? 

They did it because influence degree to their brain was above a limit of shipping or possibility of indemnification of this influence.

Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.

At first. These are your desires, instead of their possibilities.
At second. There is a fact of that they are found in different parts of slope. Therefore it is possible to say only that they have met only in that quantity which was when them have found. The rest it is there are your conjectures. All disposition of groups and material evidences say that they did not co-operate after have escaped from tent.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on October 08, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
I have passed this message. Very much in vain.

WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.

I got it. I had very well-founded suspicions that you try, as at us our speak «дурковать (gurgle - in English)» or (if on slang) « лепить горбатого (throw dust into people’s eyes - in English) ».
Excuse me if I have resulted wrong English termы.
Only it is necessary to continue to do it very carefully (and to put smilies), differently it is possible to pass easily as babbler. Then sensible readers will simply cease to pay attention to you.
I would like to learn, what at you is preparation in section of radio physics and biology of bears?
And as:
1.In what place of a bear there are aerials of these ranges of this radio frequencies?  grin1
2.What type these aerials: "Array”, “magnetic loops”,  “downhill ray”, "dipole", “Yagi-Uda”, “ Rubber Ducky” ?  grin1
3.What sensitivity of receivers and efficiency of transmitters?  grin1
4.Modulation of signals there sideband or there is available upper sideband (USB) with lower sideband (LSB) or the are double sidebandamplitude modulation (DSB-AM)?  grin1
5.What range of a radio communication in the conditions of mountains, type of what in Northern Ural Mountains?  grin1
6.And the most important thing: I would like to learn what system of coding of his signals?  grin1
Maybe it all is useful to me at defence against bears at a following exit in that area.  grin1
If you do not answer these questions, at you very much an every prospect to receive a rank which I have designated in lines above.  grin1

Thats a very long reply.  Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on October 08, 2018, 04:17:16 PM
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.


It is good. Even if they about what knew that, as they can that that to do if there was an irritant which could not allow work well for a brain?

So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ? 

They did it because influence degree to their brain was above a limit of shipping or possibility of indemnification of this influence.

Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.

At first. These are your desires, instead of their possibilities.
At second. There is a fact of that they are found in different parts of slope. Therefore it is possible to say only that they have met only in that quantity which was when them have found. The rest it is there are your conjectures. All disposition of groups and material evidences say that they did not co-operate after have escaped from tent.

The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on October 09, 2018, 11:10:31 AM

Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.

Whether it has been printed in magazine Areo, signed by James Lindsey and Peter Boghossian?
If so it has turned out casually  grin1?
If it not so, I like to learn a source?
Especially me interests, how "accuracy" was defined?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on October 09, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
............................
The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.

What can be more serious than frustration of stability of nervous system or brain functioning?
You can know as any control system when she starts to function on resonant frequency of instability behaves?
If you remember, the Iranian factories on manufacture of nuclear fuel have been put out of action by the harmful program which worked in this way.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on October 10, 2018, 01:37:30 PM

Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.

Whether it has been printed in magazine Areo, signed by James Lindsey and Peter Boghossian?
If so it has turned out casually  grin1?
If it not so, I like to learn a source?
Especially me interests, how "accuracy" was defined?


Here is a link to one such scientific study of sound / frequencies. http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/7/1116
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on October 10, 2018, 02:20:19 PM
............................
The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.

What can be more serious than frustration of stability of nervous system or brain functioning?
You can know as any control system when she starts to function on resonant frequency of instability behaves?
If you remember, the Iranian factories on manufacture of nuclear fuel have been put out of action by the harmful program which worked in this way.

I have heard STORIES about the possible use of certain weapons that use SOUND in order to affect people. But all the stories I have heard of have not resulted in the serious injuries or deaths of people. And such weapons did not exist in 1959.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on November 28, 2018, 04:57:48 AM

Here is a link to one such scientific study of sound / frequencies. http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/7/1116

It is very strange. I already answered this message in a forum, but it is not present for the unknown reason.
I will try to restore it on my memory.
I have read this article still then, but have not found out there any references to frequency in such units as megaHertz (MHz).

Here the citation from this article where the resume of all research is resulted:

«Summary
While there has been recent concern about the effects of sound on marine mammals, including polar bears, there are no data available measuring the hearing of any bear. The in-air hearing of three polar bears was measured using evoked auditory potentials obtained while tone pips were played to three individually anaesthetized bears at the Kolmården Djurpark. Hearing was tested in half-octave steps from 1 to 22.5 kHz. Measurements were not obtainable at 1 kHz and best sensitivity was found in the range from 11.2–22.5 kHz. Considering the tone pips were short and background noise measurements were available, absolute measurements were estimated based on an assumed mammalian integration time of 300 ms. These data show sensitive hearing in the polar bear over a wide frequency range and should cause those concerned with the introduction of anthropogenic noise into the polar bear's environment to operate with caution.» (с)

Please show to me where here it is told about frequencies in terms of MHz.
The maximum frequency which is designated in this article is 22.5 kHz. It is border between heard (human) a sound and ultrasound. In the rest it is a range of sounds heard (human). Frequency equal approximately 1 kHz and overtone from it, it is a roar of a bear.
As a result it means that all range of frequencies for dialogue of bears is in a range of heard sounds for human.
Therefore here there no is radio physics of high frequencies (as MHz).
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on November 28, 2018, 05:02:33 AM

....................................

I have heard STORIES about the possible use of certain weapons that use SOUND in order to affect people. But all the stories I have heard of have not resulted in the serious injuries or deaths of people.

Yes. There were such researches in the nineties which were conducted with the big intensity in the different countries. It was called research not the lethal weapon. Including were with infrasound use. Direct generation of an infrasound (IS) has been connected by that very big capacities for this purpose were required. The sizes of devices should be will turn out as huge. The main thing was not clear in how it was necessary to protect the personnel of installations from defeat as IS those frequencies which were necessary, was not directed, easily got through traditional accident protection devices and was poorly weakened in them. Therefore military experts have very quickly refused use of this updating in direct application.
However in nature this phenomenon both was, and remains it.
The most realistic devices not lethal weapon have been created on the basis of radiators of ultrasonic frequencies of two different, but the very close located ultrasonic frequencies. At their mixture after processing by a brain of the person which has been amazed by them, he perceived it as IS "necessary" infalow frequencies.
In a press there were publications that such devices have been used for struggle against pirates from Somalia near to Ormuz strait and the African horn peninsula.


And such weapons did not exist in 1959.

Yes of course.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 04, 2018, 06:54:59 AM

Any proofs does not exist. That there was that that another, except a case of natural damage. It is thought out by people who cannot understand physics of process of reception of damages under natural conditions.
Proofs are not conversations on theme, and material traces which are a consequence of real actions, instead of thought up.
Besides, they would like to find what that criminal events. So it is more interesting to them to understand this case. But between desires and truth there is a science which is called biomechanics of reception of a trauma. To a natural case detailed consideration of topology of traumas deviates. It is impossible to strike in a ju-jitsu a plane of very big sizes or a narrow superfirm subject of the conic form 3,5 х 2 sm (1,5 х 1 in). It will be surrealism.
To accept or not to accept as obvious to any person, it is subjective opinion. The opinion depends only on desire of the person, instead of from an objective reality.
You persistently do not want to accept a condition and the district characteristic because you them did not see and cannot imagine them.

There are no numerous certificates and, especially, objective data that it was a crime. It simply ideas of people which gravitate to conspirology. I studied this case directly on a place, professionally was engaged in researches in the biomechanic, studied all available documents and talked practically to all participants of events who were live to 2006, any objective certificates was not present. There are very indistinct memoirs which are accompanied by touch of hearings and legends. But no confirmed certificates are present. Many people far from professionals think out any improbable versions which are impossible actually. There is no objective information more. I hope that you understand a difference that what that the person speaks words, and in practice it appears, it not so. It is called as subjective opinion. More often this opinion appears incorrect. As it are takes place in this case.

For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury. Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim. I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder. Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.

There is no need to make a great song and dance about "conspirology." To try to discredit other people with such labels is an extremely impolite and above all extremely unscientific way of discussion, and that kind of labeling has no place in a serious discussion.

We need to approach the Dyatlov Pass deaths in a rational and investigative way.

The answer does not lie in the terrain.

The answer does not lie in the infrasound theory, which is perhaps the most far fetched and unrealistic of all the speculative theories there are.

Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.

The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on December 04, 2018, 06:20:31 PM
RE PER INGE OESTMOEN.  SEE QUOTES BELOW.

[[  For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury. Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim. I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder. Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.  ]] 

 Even if it were physically possible to cause such injuries by the JIU JITSU, which is highly unlikely, the question then is why just DUBININA  !  ? 


[[  Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.
The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.  ]] 

The original Autopsies left a lot to be desired. For instance, there was very little description of the injuries regarding DUBININA's TONGUE and other parts. There wouldnt be much left of the bodies after so long a time, soft tissues long gone.  But it would be very useful to look at DUBININA's RIBS.

Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: WAB on December 09, 2018, 01:55:34 PM
My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it


For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.

Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.

Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim.

Aha, and so 6 +5 consecutive times at Dubinina? And then 5 more consecutive times at Zolotaryov? And they easy lay, turned and all looked as though it better it to substitute that it would look as blow about a plane
You understand, what you have told?

I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder.

Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.
If you want to tell that there have come what to kill specially for Dyatlov group for no reason at all it means that you consider the listeners as idiots, and they are ready to listen to any words without reflecting on sense. It is characteristic for idiots - not to perceive the validity as it is.
The reason should be very considerable. Such that other possibility would not be.
The reason is necessary real, instead of simply decided or a mere verbiage because even to get on this place there is very big problem. You did not try it and have decided it to ignore. Even if not to tell what to find tent on a slope of mountain at night and at bad weather it is absolutely impossible.
You did not try it, and even far do not represent, and have decided it to ignore absolutely
I recommend look, what there happens weather, at least here on these video: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing 
These are day shootings. Add here darkness and try to find tent in mile from last trees. And above a wood zone on 500 foots on lifting height. In district which has no appreciable reference points.

Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.

Means you at first have decided that it was murder, and then under it select what that nonexistent reasons.
We have such fairy tale: "There are only two opinions:
1.- My opinions ultimate (that is yours!)
and
2. – it is wrong opinions another's ".
Here you precisely approach under the maintenance of this fairy tale …
Only the maintenance of events does not approach under this opinion.

There is no need to make a great song and dance about "conspirology." To try to discredit other people with such labels is an extremely impolite and above all extremely unscientific way of discussion, and that kind of labeling has no place in a serious discussion.

So in what you are engaged, absolutely precisely approaches under this term. You thinks out nonexistent crimes, and then all in the possible ways try to inspire it the rest.
In the east speak: "Even if 1000 times to tell a word halvah, in a mouth becomes more sweet not" (Therefore let's operate not with words about"murder", and the facts and scientific knowledge. And here with it at you very difficultly moves ahead. You yet have not answered one concrete and directly asked question. You have only one admonitions as on the sermon in church. It there is important - trust or not, that would not trust here is required, and knew.
And what you speak about "a scientific and unscientific way of discussion"? It is an admonition method is scientific? "Good" there should be this your "science" …  grin1

We need to approach the Dyatlov Pass deaths in a rational and investigative way.

And so also operate by means of the facts (fact it is that exists irrespective of your opinion. It or is, or it is not present in general), instead of by means of duplicating of own opinion which is equal to ignorance of about what speak.

The answer does not lie in the terrain.

You so well know district, what it confidently to deny?
At you the answer has hung in mid-air, or entirely is only in your imagination? Or you want to tell, what if district conditions (that is the facts) do not approach under your "theory" you think, what let it will be worse for these facts?

The answer does not lie in the infrasound theory, which is perhaps the most far fetched and unrealistic of all the speculative theories there are.

I have paid attention that the less person knows about that that he says, the it is more at it than hardness that the such does not exist.
Here also there was first "touchstone" for that finding-out that you mean in this theme. To be exact that do not know.
Tell, and what you know about an infrasound? Except the name?
Physicist of this phenomenon?
Conditions at which it is arises?
How operates on psychology and human physiology?
How operates on behaviour style of person after infrasonic influence?
If you not in a condition competently and in detail to answer these questions, it turns out that all your attempts that that to tell about it, are an empty phrase which does not contain any thought.
How you define degree of approach or removal from true of the given theory?
By a principle: it was pleasant to you personally, or it was not pleasant?
And you try to accuse others of that that they produce the false reasons.

Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.

It has already been made 60 years ago. New already never will be. If to you few those facts that already are, it is not necessary to think out (invented) "facts".
They is false.
Esteem please that moderator has written in theme heading. Can be though it will help to you.
•”Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”© ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.

Exactly: "Answers consist in bodies, and all bodies should be ideally dug out for full research with modern methods" (с)
And instead you result one spells about murder and do not result any arguments, and do not mention any scientific methods of research. You speak about a science much, and avoid use its methods.
Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Star man on December 19, 2018, 03:19:21 PM
I have done a little research on the infrasound and it seems that it is a credible phenomenon.  I read that test on several hundred people all at the same time created a negative response in about 20% of the people.  I suppose the number of people affected and how significant the response would depend on the magnitude of the infrasound.  The effect of infrasound may be rooted in evolution in that animals have been known to flee when they detect it.  In natural phenomenon infrasound accompanies major natural disasters such as earthquakes.

The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent?  I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.

I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.

One idea I have recently been considering is that the traumas to those in the ravine were self inflicted.  Given that they were freezing to death and probably knew they were going to die, is it possible that they thought that they wanted to end it faster?  It's probably not likely, especially if they had a knife to cut branches for the den as they could have found a better way that throwing themselves off the side of the ravine.  There are lots of variables
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on December 20, 2018, 01:33:22 PM
I have done a little research on the infrasound and it seems that it is a credible phenomenon.  I read that test on several hundred people all at the same time created a negative response in about 20% of the people.  I suppose the number of people affected and how significant the response would depend on the magnitude of the infrasound.  The effect of infrasound may be rooted in evolution in that animals have been known to flee when they detect it.  In natural phenomenon infrasound accompanies major natural disasters such as earthquakes.

The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent?  I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.

I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.

One idea I have recently been considering is that the traumas to those in the ravine were self inflicted.  Given that they were freezing to death and probably knew they were going to die, is it possible that they thought that they wanted to end it faster?  It's probably not likely, especially if they had a knife to cut branches for the den as they could have found a better way that throwing themselves off the side of the ravine.  There are lots of variables

Well yes its possible that a SOUND scarred them all out of their TENT.  But would that SOUND be the reason that they left the SAFETY of their TENT and also left all their belongings and head down a mountainside in such conditions. And its been stated many times by different people that some of the injuries to the group were of such a force that its highly unlikely that they were caused by falling into a ravine. And then there is the mystery of the MISSING TONGUE and EYES.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Star man on December 20, 2018, 02:35:12 PM
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Star man on December 20, 2018, 02:46:21 PM
Just a second thought on the fight or flight instinct.  It is just that an instinct.  We see the effect in any communal group of animals.  E.g one or more animals in a herd who have sensed a predator can start a stampede, even though most of the animals in the herd may not have sensed the threat directly.  I think this instinct exists in humans too.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on December 20, 2018, 03:54:45 PM
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: Star man on December 20, 2018, 04:30:25 PM
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.

The hyoid bone comment is a bit vague for an autopsy report?  What does unusual movement mean?  Would expect more specific comments really but suppose that is not going to happen now.  Could this also have been damaged in a fall?

For the infrasound and panic flight response.  I can relate this possibility to my own experience and knowledge.  When I ran from the cave as a child, I was not exposed to sub zero Siberian weather conditions, but if I had been and had been poorly dressed then I went well over a mile before I stopped running.  In the conditions on the mountain that night, with the tent as the only means of survival, my fiends and I would have been in big trouble if the event had happened there.

Again in terms of the comment on the chest injuries being related to a car crash, it's a bit vague.  A car crash at what speed?  A fall f 5m or so would be an impact of about 22 miles/hr.
Title: Re: Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Post by: sarapuk on December 22, 2018, 06:52:39 PM
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.

The hyoid bone comment is a bit vague for an autopsy report?  What does unusual movement mean?  Would expect more specific comments really but suppose that is not going to happen now.  Could this also have been damaged in a fall?

For the infrasound and panic flight response.  I can relate this possibility to my own experience and knowledge.  When I ran from the cave as a child, I was not exposed to sub zero Siberian weather conditions, but if I had been and had been poorly dressed then I went well over a mile before I stopped running.  In the conditions on the mountain that night, with the tent as the only means of survival, my fiends and I would have been in big trouble if the event had happened there.

Again in terms of the comment on the chest injuries being related to a car crash, it's a bit vague.  A car crash at what speed?  A fall f 5m or so would be an impact of about 22 miles/hr.

The HYOID BONE is a very tough cookie.
I wouldnt run a mile, but stop and look back and assess the situation. Something caused all the group to do a runner for a mile, what the hell was it that caused that EVENT.
The person or persons who made the remarks were probably thinking in terms of something very substantial ie not a slow speed crash.