Dyatlov Pass Forum

Victims and Case Files => Victims => Semyon Zolotaryov => Topic started by: CalzagheChick on May 26, 2018, 02:42:48 AM

Title: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 26, 2018, 02:42:48 AM
Okay well I've been working all week to verify something really REALLY huge that I came upon, but I'm pressed for time and haven't had a chance to visit the Russian sites which I will then have to translate through Google which is HORRIBLE at translating plus something is ALWAYS lost in translation which really bothers me with all of this as it's easier for me as a presumptive and interested American that only speaks/reads/writes in English to miss something or interpret something wrong.

I've come upon a few sources from Russian sites that state that Semyon Zolotaryov was in fact in a civil marriage (kind of like a "common law" marriage where it's not official but they live as husband and wife) to a woman (the only name that's coming up is that her name was Lyudmila which I find ironic and too convenient to be true) with whom he had a baby son named Sasha (his tattoo?)

His wife, possibly named Lyudmila and who possibly worked in a local department of state insurance, was, according to one source Viktor Pavlovich Krikunov, very beautiful, immediately surrendered baby Sasha to an orphanage upon Semyon Zolotaryov's death. When those who personally knew Semyon, wife and baby (Pavel Zinoviev & Vasily Drobotov) asked "Lyudmila" about the disappearance of the child, she claimed that she gave the child to Kuban relatives of Semyon. Meanwhile according to Alla Borovikovskaya (the niece in question) relatives of Semyon claim that when they found out Sasha was put into an orphanage they tried desperately to find him, but nothing could be done. He was lost to the system by then.

Have any of you ever heard any of this? Ever? This could change the way we all see our mysterious party. What if he was desperate to get his Level 3 and get home because he wanted to get home to see his little boy?

I have pictures by the way. Supposedly one photo the baby Sasha exists and it was provided by Alla.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
This is not news and there are lots of publications on the topic. I asked Galina some time ago and here is part of her mail.

(https://preview.ibb.co/iLCey8/IMG_1915_18_05_18_12_02.jpg)
Sasha. Born 10-Feb-1956.
For the first time he is mentioned (that Zolotaryov had a son and his fate is unknown), in Piskareva article (http://samlib.ru/p/piskarewa_m_l/zolotarev.shtml) in 2012. The mother was common law wife i.e. they were not officially married. At the time she met Semyon, she already had an elder daughter. So the son is the second child. His fate is unclear. There are versions:
- She gave him up to an orphanage (a version that Semyon's relatives adhere to)
- She gave it to Semyon himself and to care for him suddenly his mother moved to Semyon's, leaving her husband and daughters. Speculations are that this was the reason why Semyon was in a hurry to get back from the trek, so he can take care of his son.
- Now that the DNA test has not confirmed that there are Zolotaryov's remains in the grave, a new theory raged out  that he remained alive and generally took the son from his mother himself.
According to surviving documents Sasha did not carry Zolotaryov's family name, but had his mother's name. We do not know whether Semyon was officially entered on the birth certificate as a father. Most likely he was not.

There are more complications, Galina might decide to publish more on the topic.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 05:21:16 AM
Quote
Zolotaryov's tattoos are very interesting, among them there were images of a five-pointed star, strange shape like beets-heart-fire (in the case files says beets), the name "Гена" (Guena), his year of birth "1921", ДАЕРММУАЗУАЯ (DAERMMUZAUAYA), "Г+С+П=Д", this was common among Soviet soldiers who served together for a long time. Russian letter "Д" stands for "дружба" (friendship). The three letters were first letters of the three soldiers. "С" stood for "Семен", Semyon in Russian. Others two names are unknown. Then we have "Г + С", as well as individual letters "C" next to the star and beets-heart-fire. Most of Zolotaryov's tattoos were hidden by clothing and the rest of the Dyatlov group members didn't know anything about them.

Also there is no "Sasha" among Semyon's tattoos.  nea1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2018, 08:11:21 AM
Its news to me....  I never delve into each victims relatives etc. 

Looks like a sticky....   great work!    thumb1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 26, 2018, 10:05:50 AM
Note From Tristan (OP):
Okay This is what I've dug up to go with the original post. I just thought Galina might have more of a formed opinion or information on the matter as a walking enclyclopedia before I posted anything about it. I've been keeping tabs on it all in my notebook.

If this isn't new, and it's not important, then why does almost every source I've ever read continue to paint Semyon Zolotaryov as a mysteriously childless bachelor? There's this ongoing, one, common theme, and it always suggests that he was an odd ball for these times being unmarried and without a family to even show up to his funeral (another unverifiable detail; see below).

I would think that all of these people who have claimed royalties from book deals? They would at least get their research as accurate as possible before ANYTHING ever hit a publisher. If something is unverifiable, it's not dead in the water. It's just unverifiable, but that's not necessarily an automatic trash pit verdict. Something like this deserved to be known! We've been told of these criminal gold teeth and tattoos of a hardened mafioso it would seem (they guy had a tattoo of beets for crying out loud...like saying a tattoo of a grilled cheese sandwich as a mark of The Beast.  lol2) Anyway here's the evidence I've managed to outline in my notebook. I've left nothing out that I wrote down. It's a mess--would you expect anything less with this case?

(https://image.ibb.co/kYqmwT/alla.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gv36wT)
Here is Alla Borovikovskaya, the niece whose DNA is questionable compared to the remains in Zolotaryov's grave. Most of these photos come from her. He official statement on the nature of Semyon's involvement in the DPI is as follows, "Semyon couldn't be a spy."


(https://preview.ibb.co/nif5O8/pavelandvasily.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jWViAo)
Pavel Zinoviev & Visily Drobotov claim to have personally known Semyon Zolotaryov and his "family" as they remember seeing Semyon, "Lyudmila," and the stroller in which baby Sasha would lay going on walks before the DPI. Another eyewitness account from one Viktor Pavlovich Krikonov claims that "Lyudmila" was very beautiful as he'd see her every single month at the local department of state insurance to pay his fees. He distinctly remembers her ring. He also claims that she his the child from her father (unverifiied information as of writing this thread), and when he inquired of Sasha's disappearance he was told that baby Sasha was given to Semyon's Kuban relatives. Kuban relatives say otherwise.


(https://preview.ibb.co/cAhKi8/semyon1955.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGpzi8)
Semyon Zolotaryov, circa 1955. Unknown woman. On the back is written, "I always want to be your best friend." If this is "Lyudmila," I would say it's highly unlikely. Baby Sasha was probably in the vicinity of one year old at the time he was surrendered to an orphanage give or take a few months. Even adding an extra year for gestation would not quite bring us back to 1955.


(https://image.ibb.co/g7d6wT/semyoncousins.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Semyon standing with cousins Peter and Fedor. I'm always shocked at how many photos of Zolotaryov exist, and in all of them he appears to be made for the camera. I've thoroughly enjoyed going through all of his personal photographs that exist across the internet and seeing him pose with various family, women, and the +9 to +8 in his party before their untimely deaths.


(https://image.ibb.co/iB3vqo/32684974_2069440693301511_2828532836850466816_n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The only known photo of baby Sasha.


(https://image.ibb.co/hy8vqo/32782627_2069450016633912_8499936395580669952_n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
More family ties: Semyon Zolotaryov and his sisters. No clue what that says.


(https://image.ibb.co/dR75qo/33040754_1729763673778512_7407774530589949952_n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
This photograph tends to come up a lot related to the search for Baby Sasha. My guess is she is another possiblity for "Lyudmila." The back of this photograph was also made out to Semyon with hopes that he would remember a specific night related to politics.

Thoughts Across the Web:
CT: If Zolotaryov was doing secret operations as many believe, I imagine he would keep his wife secret especially if he got caught or killed. They could go after her.

PS: Perhaps she hid child after death of Semyon out of fear to protect Sasha from KGB/military/Kruschev/USSR 1959/etc.

PS: Alla says they don't know if any family was at Semyon's funeral in Sverdlovsk. Some sources say that Semyon's mother attended, but this is not true. She was not there. Nobody in the family knows how he was buried.

Internet Source Links, all Russian:
https://www.dv.kp.ru/daily/26481.5/3351204/
https://www.dv.kp.ru/daily/26483.4/3352641/
http://zaberaj.ru/nepoznannoe/pereval-dyatlova-na-tele-semena-zolotareva-okazalis-tatuirovki-kotoryx-pri-zhizni-nikto-ne-videl.html
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 11:28:49 AM
Quote
If this isn't new, and it's not important, then why does almost every source I've ever read continue to paint Semyon Zolotaryov as a mysteriously childless bachelor? There's this ongoing, one, common theme, and it always suggests that he was an odd ball for these times being unmarried and without a family to even show up to his funeral...
By being so emotional you can't change the opinion of people that are not even present at this forum. I like Zolotaryov and I do not believe a single bit of him being in any way responsible for their deaths and still the fact remains that he didn't marry the mother of his child, and he was hitting on Zina while his 3 year old son was basically fatherless. But Zolotaryov is called worse things that womanizer. The fate of the child will not in any way change the course of the investigation. It doesn't exactly portray him as a family man, or his family as a loving grandparents or else the child will have remained in their custody. Why didn't they raise him?
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Armide on May 26, 2018, 01:26:37 PM
By being so emotional you can't change the opinion of people that are not even present at this forum.

Teddy, what exactly do you mean here? I don't think I understand your wording.

The fate of the child will not in any way change the course of the investigation.

I agree with you 100%, but if the child is still alive/had children of his own, they would be better candidates for DNA tests. If we find out who the mother of his child was, we might get a lead by finding people who knew Zolotaryov well.


It doesn't exactly portray him as a family man, or his family as a loving grandparents or else the child will have remained in their custody. Why didn't they raise him?

Is it possible that he didn't raise him out of shame or something like that? Since he didn't marry the mother of his child and was hitting on Zina like you said, could it have been an accident that he had a child out of wedlock and that his family wasn't too happy about it? Perhaps his family was more conservative and this child brought dishonour to them, since he came from a long line of Kuban Cossacks where family is everything to them. It's possible that Zolotaryov left, for whatever reason, and the mother of this child was too ashamed to raise the child on her own or ask Zolotaryov's parent for help. Perhaps his parent's didn't even know about this child.

I'm over here ranting but the problem here is that we're not even sure if this child really does exist. From what I saw on KP's website it seems all we have to work with are two witness testimonies and the rest is speculation. I assume if someone knows what was going on in Zolotaryov's life, they would contact KP first anyways.  dunno1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 02:18:08 PM
Sources say bachelor, no source I have ever read says Semyon is childless. And he is an odd ball. This doesn't make him a mass murderer.
The child to be DNA source - this is going to be a quest to prove that yes, the man in the grave fathered this child that will be another saga to find, and proves nothing further.
The relatives want to bring humanity in the character whose remains the media seems to gnaw on... but I am resting my case here, because I don't know what this will lead to. If this re-opens the case - let them pick on. I don't have problem with Tristan's post, I just can't justify the emotional read on it, but that's me. I usually just lay down the information only without an emotional charge.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 26, 2018, 03:48:22 PM
I'm really unsure how I've gone from uncovering the possibility that Zolotaryov did in fact have a family to Zolotaryov is a mass murderer? I've never even suggested that. I don't even remotely think he had anything to do with this as I believe whole heartedly that he perished with the other 8 and that is in fact his body in that grave.

Furthermore, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt here and assume there is a communication barrier as far as the suggestion of me being emotional. I'm not at all emotional. I asked Galina about baby Sasha upon your suggestion that she's a walking encyclopedia. I woke to find a thread created under Semyon Zolotariov (Victims) so I figured since the thread was created I may as well just dump all of my notes into the thread instead of writing up a formal post as I had originally planned. That's where above you'll see the photos I saved and captioned.

There are now a billion things going on here that I have zero to do with. I am not suggesting Zolotaryov is a murderer or responsible for the Dyatlov Pass Incident. I am not suggesting that Zolotaryov is what Americans love to call "a deadbeat dad." I'm not even sure I would call him that if he did in fact surrender his rights to raise his son. This was a man that was purposely put on the front lines of WW2 with the intention of killing him off under Stalin's grand plan of killing off the Kossacs. Ummmm war is horrifying in and of itself but the fact that he shouldn't have come back from that war by all accounts just tells me that this guy was a special kind of hardened.

Furthermore, I have absolutely NO idea where this suggestion that Zolotaryov was making passes as Zinaida on the trip is coming from, but it sounds like many of you have access to information that I don't. I can only write and question that which I can interpret and read from credible sources. I have NEVER seen the suggestion that Semyon was a man-whore nor do I know what pleasantries or unpleasantries passed between them on this trip from which they would not return. I find it very presumptive to even suggest that any of the members of the Dyatlov party were courting/dating/romantically interested in one another as there is NOTHING suggesting as much save for some words Zinaida wrote to a friend in a letter that she was jealous and presumably hurt seeing Yuri hold hands with a girl in the Blinov party. I can see that bothering her. She was a wounded young girl that was in love with a poor boy. I believe her heart was broken and she tried desperately to make the trip work without disclosing her wounded pride.

That is the ONLY evidence that exists regarding Zinaida. Where all of this other stuff is coming from, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 26, 2018, 08:12:33 PM
All I see is relative pertaining information regarding an fascinating history of one of the victims that I myself had not done any research on, so I appreciate the OP and the work to research it and post it.

No reason to get into the weeds on this one.  I made it a sticky because its flat out good information for everyone to absorb.   No Sasha tattoo......   covered that too!   I guess the tattoo is like the gold teeth scenario......  more bogus wonk wonk created deep within Russia I'm sure. 

All relative information

Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 08:36:38 PM
I didn't say you did. I meant it the other way around, that by not publishing information for what a good dad Zolotrayyov is you think people are portraing him as a bad person.
At least this is the vibe I get from
If this isn't new, and it's not important, then why does almost every source I've ever read continue to paint Semyon Zolotaryov as a mysteriously childless bachelor? There's this ongoing, one, common theme, and it always suggests that he was an odd ball for these times being unmarried and without a family to even show up to his funeral (another unverifiable detail; see below).

I would think that all of these people who have claimed royalties from book deals? They would at least get their research as accurate as possible before ANYTHING ever hit a publisher. If something is unverifiable, it's not dead in the water. It's just unverifiable, but that's not necessarily an automatic trash pit verdict. Something like this deserved to be known! We've been told of these criminal gold teeth and tattoos of a hardened mafioso it would seem (they guy had a tattoo of beets for crying out loud...like saying a tattoo of a grilled cheese sandwich as a mark of The Beast.)

Maybe I don't read it right, no need to continue this direction really. Again, I meant it the other way around of what I think I said.
Don't mind me, it's all good.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 26, 2018, 09:18:16 PM

This is what is known from Tamara's daughters. It is clear that all memories can be smoothed, especially childhood memories. And it is clear that the daughters will protect their mother, even more because they are loving daughters.

Now looking at it objectively hear is what I do not understand.
Everything happened in a very small village Lermontovo, also closed to outsiders, since uranium was extracted on its territory. All those who came to work in this city, were investigated. The village was recently founded and everyone lived in barracks. Those in one long house have many rooms and one family (no matter how many people) lives in one room. All have a shared toilet, a corridor, a kitchen. There are many neighbors.
I don't understand how is it possible to explain to the neighbors where did the child go. Neighbors could not help but notice. The same goes for the Semyon's family, how could the child disappear without anybody noticing, they lived in barracks too.

At that time in the Soviet Union the children were looked ta very fondly (they were a great asset), especially in the territories that were occupied by the Germans. Maybe you do not know, but in the same village Udobnoy, where Semyon is from, there was a German hospital for which children were selected, their blood was pumped out of them and their bodies were thrown into a pit behind the hospital. In the same pit, after liberation, they found bodies and women, with bullet holes, embracing their children.
A child at that time was considered sacred.

You (and people at the Russian forum) are wondering why is Semyon in the photos surrounded by women. Because there were no men (muzhiks (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/muzhik)). 25 million men of childbearing age perished. There was a very strong demographic bias. Women did not hope to get married, they wanted to have children at least.
Therefore, at that time, there was a government decree, on the support of single mothers financially. Perhaps this is the reason why none of Tamara's daughters had an official father and why Semyon was not put on the birth certificate. Tamara received money for this under a program that stimulates fertility. And they all lived very poorly. It is now difficult for us to imagine how poor and how difficult it was.
What am I getting at.

The most realistic option to bypass all legal and social difficulties, was to give the child to be brought up in the village to some relatives. It was allowed, because life was really hard.
But the thing is that if she gave Sasha to Semyon's mom or Semyon himself - it was impossible to live in one small village and not meet with her son. So Sasha was clearly taken from Lermontovo. And Tamara did not know where, if she was looking for him.
Now there was information from Semyon's niece that when they were looking for him, they were told "you can't find him, he is in Germany".
I'm not very sure that there was cross-border adoption at that time, so most likely they are talking of Soviet citizens who worked or served in Germany at that time. Those who had the right to live there as families were few. There is a hope that this can be reflected in some archives in Germany - lists of diplomatic workers or military specialists.
The problem is that if Sasha was adopted at the age of one year, he could completely change his name and even his date of birth. And he may not even know about the fact that he is adopted. Although at that time it was not accepted to hide this. Too many children were adopted and this was normal.
By the way, Alla Borovikovskaya, whose photo you posted here, is also a foster child in Zolotaryov's family.

Off topic. Next day after the exhumation I was alone in the cemetery. The sun was shining, although it was cold. I went to church, put a candle for Semyon, and, waiting for the car, just walked along the paths. I heard a bell ringing. Maybe I went crazy (not every day digging up graves), but suddenly I realized that I had to find Semyon's son and make him come to the grave of his father. Semyon needs this, he is asking for it. It was like a bright explosion in the brain.
I will finish this and leave the topic.
There are many theories about Semyon. It so happened that no one knows about him as much as I do. He was a complicated man with a very uneasy fate, but at the same time I have a strong feeling that he was an extremely decent and good person. I can talk indefinitely about Semyon, perhaps enough is enough.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 26, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Wow. You keep writing I'll keep translating.
... and @ CalzagheChick I am retracting my words about the emotional charge  wink1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 27, 2018, 07:53:12 AM
Please don't stop talking about Semyon.

But I must ask, how do you know all of this? How did you uncover all of this?

I obviously never could have being an American with limited access.

But also... this whole thing just kind of opened up a ton of other things.

It's kind of crappy when you think of it that this man survived every plague thrown at the Soviet people including by his own government and yet he dies mysteriously on a mountain slope skiing, doing something with which he was pretty much an expert.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 27, 2018, 07:54:27 AM
By the way...

You just said Alla is adopted. She knows she is adopted.

So all along they've known this DNA testing is moot?
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 07:59:24 AM
By the way...

You just said Alla is adopted. She knows she is adopted.

So all along they've known this DNA testing is moot?

Channel 1 took the material for testing from Tatyana Skulbeda who is a birth daughter of one of Zolotaryov's sisters.
He has many nieces and nephews, I guess they all know who is adopted.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 08:03:57 AM
Niece Tatyana Skulbeda (left) and gradniece Julia Orehova (right).
(https://preview.ibb.co/dgrnoJ/Tatyana_Skulbeda_Julia_Orehova.jpg)
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 08:12:45 AM
Komsomolskaya Pravda aslo took material from nephew Pavel Leshchenko, but this test was not successful.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kmC5ay/Dyatlov_pass_Zolotaryov_DNA_1.jpg)

You can read more information about the test here (http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=188.0).
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 27, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
So the fact that I brought it up makes it irrelevant to the case because I don't have the means to go into as much detail as Galina who obviously travels to the area and has access to more sources than I could ever hope for. But Galina takes up this story and you're cool as a cucumber about it being in the forum?

I came upon this glitch in Semyon's history through a facebook post in a group to which you belong and contribute findings to occassionally. I followed it up as much as I possibly could from there. You all see what I have in the above post where my notes were dumped.

I am so grateful to Galina for sharing all of that information about this story. It was a very emotional read that challenges all of us to dive further into Soviet history to see just what these people went through at the hands of their own and also foreign governments. It's not right!!! It's no wonder Russian people tend to be suspicious of any and all outsiders or anything that doesn't jive with life as they know it. It's insidious and I hope those responsible have a special place in Hell cut out for them (that's a very big no-no for a devout Catholic to condemn any person to no matter how evil they were in life as we are supposed to pray for the likes of Hitler and Stalin--but I find that's asking a bit much of my human nature.) I only hope she contributes much more.

I am not about these lives having their only legacy be the manner in which they died. Their lives were equally as precious as the sensation of their deaths.

However, I see no reason to keep this forum active and buzzing with ideas, suspicions, theories, and questions if I'm only going to be shot down as irrelevant to the case. Perhaps you need to be more specific on what you're looking to see in your forum because I'm not getting that it's an open discussion. And perhaps I'm simply best served on the sidelines reading that which others have to contribute.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 27, 2018, 08:55:24 AM
Quote
.Komsomolskaya Pravda aslo took material from nephew Pavel Leshchenko, but this test was not successful. 
That's not true. It's something about relationships between KP an tv only. The second  test will be done between Semen and Pavel.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 08:58:24 AM
@ CalzagheChick
No no no, please don't. If you hadn't brought it up Galina would not have shared with us this story. I can't weave between the site, FB and the forum in the right set of mind. I didn't mean to put you down, I myself was not right and I didn't bring the information I had into the open, because I am tired and exhausted and I need a vacation, and I was jealous that somebody else brought it up. There. I need ya all.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 09:01:16 AM
The second  test will be done between Semen and Pavel.
Can't wait.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 27, 2018, 09:22:56 AM

I am not about these lives having their only legacy be the manner in which they died. Their lives were equally as precious as the sensation of their deaths.

However, I see no reason to keep this forum active and buzzing with ideas, suspicions, theories, and questions if I'm only going to be shot down as irrelevant to the case. Perhaps you need to be more specific on what you're looking to see in your forum because I'm not getting that it's an open discussion. And perhaps I'm simply best served on the sidelines reading that which others have to contribute.


Please stay. No one wants you to leave, and we want you to continue to give words to your thoughts.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 27, 2018, 09:33:51 AM
Guys, so sorry for my English again even I fought I can read fluent. I have problems with writing as Teddy has in rissian. I never study English because was born in the Soviet Union.
I can not understand this talking about "I see no reason to keep this forum active and buzzing with ideas, suspicions, theories, ". Should I stop posting? Just because my post change your vision of the tragedy?
9 people died. If you trust it was avalanche - no need to read about baby Sasha.
If you think it was another reason of the death - you can not understand situation clearly without historical knowledge. I'm here because of 1) I know a bit about this story 2) I glad to spread historical information about the Russia and Russians. About my country I love a lot, even all male members of my family were killed in 1937 and just my 18 years old grandfather spent 5 years in Gulag. And survived. 3) finally doesn't matter who are we - Russians, Americans, from Burkina Faso end etc.  We are human. And you can find answer for some questions as well as russians. If you a looking for answers.
I don't take care about FB, forum or site, it's not my business. If Teddy decides  to transfer some information from one internet form to another- she can do it.
If you don't want to get some information - no problems.
I'm pretty sure you have some hidden relationships I don't want to be involved in. But some times I can not understand is it reasonable to spend my time here ? Any way Teddy can ask any questions in the privet massage and get the answer.
I was writing here for last days because of some misunderstanding about the letter. I saw how Teddy was sad. I just decide to support Teddy into her very difficult job. No war.  Neither cold or hot.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 27, 2018, 09:38:27 AM
The second  test will be done between Semen and Pavel.
Can't wait.
No way)) 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 27, 2018, 09:53:06 AM
It's kind of crappy when you think of it that this man survived every plague thrown at the Soviet people including by his own government and yet he dies mysteriously on a mountain slope skiing, doing something with which he was pretty much an expert.


When we think about it, it is not so strange that the man who was an expert in survival died.

A likely sequence of events is that after the Dyatlov group members were forced out from their tent by unknown attackers, Zolotaryev suggested that they try to build a shelter and to hide there in the hope that the attackers would leave. That was the only thing to do, even though he probably understood that the attackers would not leave. When the attacking group realized that the temperature was not sufficiently low to take the lives of the nine as fast as planned, they hunted the Dyatlov group down and made sure that all the students perished.

Since Zolotaryev and the others who died last were better dressed than the others, they might have survived for days if they had been left alone. Zolotaryev, Kolevatov, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Dubinina therefore had to be killed fast and powerfully, for the murderous mission to be accomplished. Zolotaryev could probably fight, but against these assailants he and the others had no chance.

There is of course no reason to believe that Semyon Zolotaryev was responsible for the tragic outcome in any way.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 27, 2018, 09:55:36 AM
The second  test will be done between Semen and Pavel.
Can't wait.
No way)) 2 weeks.


We have time to wait. These things take time.

Thank you very much for being here.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Armide on May 27, 2018, 10:02:39 AM
Galina, what exactly do you mean? I think that the information you continue to give on this forum is extremely valuable, and any misunderstandings that have arisen have been cleared up. Please stick around, I promise you that your contributions are appreciated. We really don't have any sort of secret relationships between each other, we send PM's around, sure, but I can promise no one's plotting to overtake the forum or something, it's just not everything needs to be posted on the forum to avoid repetition & questions that might have already been answered. Please don't worry about your English either, it's perfectly understandable if you make mistakes, I don't think any of us care too much for other people's English mistakes :)
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 11:43:23 AM
However, I see no reason to keep this forum active and buzzing with ideas, suspicions, theories, and questions if I'm only going to be shot down as irrelevant to the case.

Galina, this is addressed to me because I said that the information about baby Sasha is not new.
I already explained myself, I am grateful that it was brought up by CalzagheChick in the forum because I would say anything about here or on the site and now we have wonderful information from you. My response was

@ CalzagheChick
No no no, please don't. If you hadn't brought it up Galina would not have shared with us this story. I can't weave between the site, FB and the forum in the right set of mind. I didn't mean to put you down, I myself was not right and I didn't bring the information I had into the open, because I am tired and exhausted and I need a vacation, and I was jealous that somebody else brought it up. There. I need ya all.

Galina, don't mind our little squabbles. There are no undercurrents. Lets talk about the case. Doesn't everybody love the insights?
Please feel free to write in Russian. I am more than happy to translate. You guys tip me in PM if I don't see a posting in Russian in time.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2018, 11:51:36 AM
Galina, to you CalzagheChick says
Please don't stop talking about Semyon.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 28, 2018, 09:10:00 AM
Open Letter to Galina,

Please don't think anything of Teddy and I. We always squabble with each other. It's common place at this point. Some of it is language barrier, some of it is cultural difference, and the rest of it is our emotional/time attachment to the Dyatlov Pass Incident.

There are no undercurrents of comraderie going on here. Many of us are good friends outside of this case and we frequently discuss findings before we make any postings. I particularly need a lot of help with research, interpretations/translations, and navigating Russian sources. After all I'm just an American in a very poor region of the United States with some time on her hands.

I think we all kind of gravitate toward a certain victim, and I just happen to be obsessed with Semyon because of the lack of information written about him. This started over a thread on facebook and I hadn't had a huge opportunity to look into baby Sasha. When Teddy said that you know more about the case than anybody she's met, I humbled myself to ask you about it. And now you have an entire front page dedicated to your research/knowledge on the fact that Semyon wasn't a childless bachelor with only a mother to mourn his loss.

In any case, a lot of what you wrote about the Holodomor, the famines... I can relate to those simply because my own grandparents went through the American Great Depression and it changed how many Americans lived. There was no such thing as waste. My grandfather used to reprimand me all the time for throwing food away. He had his own quirks from that period of American history that too many don't understand today. I used to think it was gross that he would save every newspaper to be used as fertilizer on his back porch. Used pie tins he would put underneath his plants to catch water. And the thing is, he didn't come from a poor family like the most affected.

Anyway, there's no need to leave. I was just calling Teddy out for initially shooting down the original inquest into baby Sasha as irrelevant to the case, then as soon as you came in to revive it, it was worth putting on the front page of the site. Teddy and I don't take anything personally between each other. In fact, I think she's got quite the thick skin to take many of the jabs.

Althought I'm "emotional" at first, I quickly calm down and remember this isn't about me or Galina or Teddy or Travis or Armide or anyone else here. It's about those who died.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 28, 2018, 04:46:53 PM
Thanks a lot. We are human and we are emotional)
About Semen. I don't know what donu want to know)) please, ask!
I know, what I don't know a lot about him, still a lot of wight pages.
But please understand my position about him. If a tell "know", I mean "confirmed by documents". What we are doing now with Natalya - trying to find new archive's documents or people who know him.
 also I have "strong feeling" and this "feeling" can be mistaken. But this "feeling" help me to find real people and real documents.
 
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 28, 2018, 05:22:44 PM
Have you met personally with Tamara's daughters? Is that how you know so much?
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 28, 2018, 06:47:31 PM
Ok, welp......     Riddle me this!    tongue2

Why did ZOLOTARYOV for no apparent reason request the group to address him as......  'Sasha'?    Like, why would I ask anyone to call me by my daughters name????


https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 28, 2018, 07:04:49 PM
Have you met personally with Tamara's daughters? Is that how you know so much?
I have not met them((( Saigon is too far even from Moscow. The eldest one stay not in Russia now, its common after USSR was crushed. . Just phone calls and a lot of letters. But Natalya did.
 Few years ago all information about his Lermontov's life was hidden. We didn't know even did he live there or not. We just had his mom's letters to Ivanov from the Lermontov without any idea did he stay with her or not.
It's was a lot of speculations on that time about him. A read a lot about Lermontov and tried to understand his social position there. Prisoner ? Worker? What is he??? Me "feeling" told - he is a teacher. I started looking for information about schools there and people who study on that time. A lot of articles, social networks, phone calls, letters...it tooks 1 or 2 years. And I found! After that everything getting easier. Official requests, archives, looking for neighbors and etc, collection of pictures and memories. If you find a "right thread" you can "tangle up in knots"
 The same situation was about the Minsk. A read a lot about Minsk, Belarus, institute, making vision of situations in this place at that time. It's more historical research. After that trying to find his way In view of this circumstance following the "feeling". After that - requests, archives, confirmation. From general to specific, all the time. May be it's a reasone why I could find some people))) some times (as expert Grigorev for example) I just want to ask general questions only, but hit the tager. Completely random I found the leader of the tourist  group Alexandr Kolevatov was a member while he has been living  in Moscow. It change my vision about him a lot. May be Kolevatov even more unknown person then semen)


 
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 28, 2018, 07:18:31 PM
Ok, welp......     Riddle me this!    tongue2

Why did ZOLOTARYOV for no apparent reason request the group to address him as......  'Sasha'?    Like, why would I ask anyone to call me by my daughters name????


https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov
We dont know exactly. One of the explanation from his student was - some friend of his was killed, but safed Semen's life during the war. Semen used his name.
 But I can assert, that he used this name long before he met the Dyatlov's group and his son was born. We have a lot of documents  from the Minsk he named Alexander, dated 1946-1950
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 28, 2018, 07:27:33 PM
Few more things I missed.     shock1


Quote
If you trust it was avalanche - no need to read about baby Sasha.

I dont believe in an avalanche, but if I did, I would still be interested in the baby Sasha story.  You seem to be implying that unless you subscribe to the murder theory...... you simply dont care about things of this nature, and that would be very incorrect.  Also, baby Sash, or no baby Sasha..... None of it is going to change the facts of the official case, or how the victims died to begin with. Its just good information as it pertains to the individuals personal life. 


Quote
If you think it was another reason of the death - you can not understand situation clearly withou historical knouladges.

Im hoping this is just the tower of Babel talking, but I'm having a very hard time comprehending how anyone that subscribes to a dif theory than you equates to "you can not understand situation clearly". 

In other words, are you stating that since your Russian, and you know all about the baby Sasha story....... The murder theory is somehow superior?   Like......  would any of it have changed what happened that night? 

Quote
I know a bit about this story

Same here, only about 5 years of brain consumption, all of which thats unbiased and focused on facts rather than conjecture.  I have no emotional involvement, and 99% of all false information that had to be weeded through came from..........   Russia.   Americans didnt create this mess if your picking up what Im slappin down?


Quote
I glad to spread historical information about the Russia and Russians. About my country I love a lot

Share away....  we are happy to have ya.   thumb1


Quote
even all male members of my family were killed in 1937 and just my 18 years old grandfather spent 5 years in Gulag. And survived.

Hopefully you can share more about this in a dedicated thread sometime.  I actually have two family members that are in fact 100% Russian. It used to be three (died last year) and she spent her childhood building rockets underground in Siberia and survived by consuming glycerin.  Her family flour mill was taken from them by the communist party etc.  Now her daughter, grand daughter, and great grand daughter live in the US and are part of my family.    thumb1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Vietnamka on May 28, 2018, 07:51:28 PM
Cannon, I think we should stop this discussion. I'm not about "theory", I'm  about archive's documents and official confirmation. Have I my own version? Yes. But you didn't read it))) I just know one thing, very important -  MURDER should be excluded. Because it's murder. If I see the patient with a high fever I know - 99% it's a cold. But i must to exclude hemorrhagic Dengue fever in  Vietnam.
If u would like to ask my opinion - I can tell u "yes. I think it was murder". But not because of traumas only, because of documents too. It's complex. I hope u can understand me better in 5 years  grin1
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 28, 2018, 11:54:44 PM
For those who like me dwelt on Galina's last post, she is saying that even without being married to a theory one should exclude a murder first. It's the order of words.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 29, 2018, 12:04:37 AM
And to Cannon (this is how I am going to address him form now own because his aim is pretty good), when somebody says "you can't understand something without knowing something else", there are two possible meanings to the sentence and it is pretty much up to you to figure out which one to choose regardless the content - is it personal you or general you as in "one can't understand something without knowing something else". In a forum we replace intonation with emoticons, this is sad, and it is up to us to choose an intonation that underlines desire of bringing some information into light. Do you really think Galina is trying to put us down as ignorant, or is she trying to share things she knows and/or suspects we (or some of us) might not know?
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 29, 2018, 03:30:59 AM
Good grief. I have a bottle of glycerine in my medicine cabinet from when I dabbled in making my own cosmetic face washes and such... it's so gross!!!! It's sticky and thick and greasy all at the same time and I can't get my scientific mind over the fact that it's biochemically 3 fatty acid chains away from being a complete lipid (fat)  lol1 lol1

Seriously I couldn't imagine ingesting it let alone ingesting it in order to cling to dear life.

All of the things that baby Sasha represents... that his birth is a reminder of as far as Semyon Zolotaryov's progeny... it's insanely difficult for me to wrap my mind around.

Semyon by all accounts should have died of starvation or on the front lines. His own government made a genocide of his people that fought to gain Russia much of its lost territory BACK. Nice debt of gratitude there--starve them.

Hunger is a very VERY personal thing to me. I have such an issue with people going hungry. I always have since a young age. Events such as the Holocaust and the Holdomor... they rip me apart inside as a person with a soul. Perhaps I'm weird in that I enjoy listening to others tell their account of what they endured--the hardships. I feel like those thing keep my own life in perspective.

By the way, since we've all decided to become to blunt with one another in these last few disturbingly hostile posts, this is my way of toning it down a little bit.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on May 29, 2018, 04:35:18 AM
Fortunately, there is no genuine hostility here.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 29, 2018, 07:27:57 AM
Before becoming a nursing student, I was a history major. My particular interest was in Western Civilization. The things is, once western civilization started going beyond colonization/Middle Passage/Elizabethan age, I started having a hard time keeping up. At this particular moment in history not only does Western Europe begin to develop very seriously out of the Dark Ages but this is the point that Eastern European history really starts to take off and Russia becomes a super player. It seemed that before Europe treated Kievan Rus through the Mongol conquests to Peter the Great & Ivan the Terrible as the red-headed stepchild and just allowed the territory to go buck wild and raise itself just as you'd expect of out deadbeat parents too consumed with their own selves to be bothered with their kids until the parents (France?) age and get sick THEN decide to make a phone call and connect after all the years of neglect and pretending that their kids were the greatest thing they'd ever done in their lives (Russia.) Before we know it, Marie Antoinette loses her head and the Napoleonic Wars land in Russia. This is the point that my history books REALLY started to inclulde Russian politics into the courses.

So at this point the first semester of Western Civilization ends and the Spring semester brings the second half of Western Civ to present day. And this is where Russia and all those Eastern European territories go absolutely CRAZY with territory lust and serfdom falls out of fashion but only in favor of a new way to handcuff the people to industrialization. Bla bla bla, Romanov dynasty murdered by Bolshevics along with Rasputin who just wouldn't die it seemed launching Russia into a civil war of reds versus whites, Lenin's communist revolution followed immediately with Stalin and Stalinism. The rapid industrialization under Stalin means that the patriotic Russian duty is work. You work until your arms & legs are stretched. You work until your fingers are nubs. You work until your backs are broken just in time for surprise!: Holdomore, Famine, World War 2, Gulag prison labor camps when you're no longer able to produce work and the cost of feeding you becomes how shall I put it? Futile? The death of Stalin brings us into a kinder, gentler communism: Kruschev aaaaaaaand Dyatlov Pass is right there with that Kruschev Thaw.

See what I mean? Crazy! Just CrAzInEsS!!!! And that's just one flippin' area of this rock. Without needing to say as much, this course took off from day one and did not stop.

So my being drawn to the Dyatlov Pass Incident has a lot to do with the fact that my first love is history.

And here we have all of these players that are not only the product of so much civil unrest and chaos, but later and much too early in their young lives they became the victims of it.

Ultimately my point in this comment is that here we have this baby that's completely fallen through all of the cracks in the systems put into place no matter how tightly monitored by the government. All of that civil unrest has come to this one year old child that just disappears from history and all existence! And I'm not even sure if it's not for the better or worse.
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Armide on May 29, 2018, 09:19:09 AM
Completely random I found the leader of the tourist  group Alexandr Kolevatov was a member while he has been living  in Moscow. It change my vision about him a lot. May be Kolevatov even more unknown person then semen)

I know this is off-topic and I'll happily move this conversation along to Kolevatov's respective thread, but what exactly do you mean here Galina?
Title: Re: Baby Sasha
Post by: Teddy on May 29, 2018, 10:07:56 PM
Galina's answer about Kolevatov is here (http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=103.0)
Title: Semyon and Sasha
Post by: jarrfan on August 24, 2019, 04:57:05 PM
I started a new subject because I am not certain this follows any thread. My question is:  Why would Semyon or his wife give away their only male child? In a country with many more women, I would think keeping their "heir" male child would be an asset instead of a deficit.

This is just wondering about family connections in Russia at that time. I also do not understand why Semyon would want to be called Sasha and hide his date of birth unless he was hiding something? This of course does not make him a murderer unless he was  not  one of the 9 hikers and he is not in the grave with  his name.