Dyatlov Pass Forum

Victims and Case Files => Witness Testimonies => Topic started by: Loose}{Cannon on May 29, 2018, 07:50:09 PM

Title: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 29, 2018, 07:50:09 PM
More on that tent.

The first group to have found the tent was split into 3 groups and the leader was Boris Efimovich Slobtsov.

Boris Efimovich Slobtsov   Борис Ефимович Слобцов   UPI student
Vadim Dmitrievich Brusnitsyn   Вадим Дмитриевич Брусницын   UPI student
Stas Devyatov   Стас Девятов   UPI student       <------------------   No picture or testimony
Yuri Koptelov   Юрий Коптелов   UPI student        <------------------   No picture or testimony
Vyacheslav Krotov   Вячеслав Кротов   UPI student     <------------------   No picture or testimony
Vladimir Lebedev   Владимир Лебедев   UPI student
Vladimir Strelnikov   Владимир Стрельников   UPI student     <------------------   No picture or testimony
Vyacheslav Ivanovich Halizov   Вячеслав Иванович Хализов   UPI student    <------------------   No picture or testimony
Mihail Petrovich Sharavin   Михаил Петрович Шаравин   UPI student, found Doroshenko and Krivonischenko's bodies on Feb 27    <------------------   No picture or testimony
Ivan Fokeevich Pashin   Иван Фокеевич Пашин   Mansi forestert
Alexei Sеmyonovich Cheglakov   Алексей Семёнович Чеглаков   Mansi hunter



SLOBTSOV WITNESS TESTIMONY    <--------- leader of first group of students to 'inspect' the tent.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Boris-Slobtsov.jpg)

Quote
The tent of Dyatlov's group was discovered by our group on the afternoon of February 26, 1959.
When they approached the tent, they found out: the entrance of the tent came from under the snow, and the rest of the tent was under snow. Around the tent in the snow stood ski poles and spare skis - 1 pair. The snow on the tent was 15-20 cm thick, it was clear that the snow was on the tent, it was hard.
Near the tent near the entrance to the snow an ice ax was stuck

Hard snow covering the entire tent other then the top half of the entrance which was still supported.   thumb1


Quote
On February 26, 1959, we dug snow over the tent and made sure that there were no people, and the things that were in the tent did not touch. With me was the student Sharavin. From the tent things were taken on February 27 and 28, 1959. At the same time students Brusnitsin and others were present.
When I looked under the tent on 26.2.59 I saw the tent itself was torn, there were food in the bucket at the entrance, there was a liquid in the jar-alcohol or vodka, there were food in the bags in the legs, the blankets were unfolded, under the blankets spread out cotton woolen jackets, storm bags, and under them rasstalany were backpacks. At the entrance hung Slobodin's jacket, in whose breast pocket money was about 800 rubles. In the tent, apparently, a sheet was hung, which was torn and part of it protruded outward.

"torn".....   no mention as to multiple tears, rips, chunks missing....... nada.   The last part I believe is referring to Slobodins jacket being stuffed into a hole? 

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I. V. PASHIN WITNESS TESTIMONY  <---------------------  Mansi forester attached to SLOBTSOV group.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-049-050?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Ivan-Fokeevich-Pashin.jpg)

Quote
Here we have arranged a tent the night, divided into three groups and went to look for the tourists, as a result of searches found a tent with the things that could be seen as the bad it is covered with snow, we did not go into the tent.


So you guys didnt go into the tent eh.....   Thats not what SLOBTSOV says.     bat1

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CHEGLAKOV WITNESS TESTIMONY   <-------------   Mansi hunter attached to SLOBTSOV group.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-044-045?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Alexei-Semyonovich-Cheglakov.jpg)

Quote
On the second day found the tent tourists which was located in the upper reaches of rivers and Auspii Lozvy at the height of the mountain verhuspiya. It was seen as bad snowed. In it, we did not go. Traces of tourists skiing around the tent to be seen.

Another stating they did not go in the tent.   nea1     Also note, The Dyatlov groups ski tracks seen!


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BRUSNITSYN WITNESS TESTIMONY     <-------------------  member of one of the three search groups under SLOBTSOV
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-362-369?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Vadim-Brusnitsyn.jpg)


Quote
The guys attempting to climb the ridge of height 1079 found an abandoned tent. They brought to the camp three cameras, Slobodin's jacket, an ice axe, which was stuck near the tent, a flashlight found near the tent and an alcohol flask

Good to know......  The first group under Slobtsov to approach the tent brought back items to camp from the Dyatlov tent.   thumb1


Quote
(26th) Our group and the two arriving groups of Karelin and Captain Chernyshov did not take part in the search that day. All were busy transporting gear from the pass to the Auspia valley, where it was decided to organize a camp.


Day two of the tent discovery, he has yet to personally see the tent.


Quote
On the next morning, the 27th, we continued our search with dogs. The rest, after dismantling the tent, began to probe the snow cover on the pass with ski poles.
After the prosecutor of Ivdel's protocoled the property of the group, it was ordered to me and M. Sharavin to collect things and transport them to the landing site of the helicopter.


Ah.....   one of the tent draggers eh....    Note...  tent dismantled on the 27th. 


Quote
The rest of the things were in disarray in the tent.
Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near to te entrance part of the tent were found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent.

Crap scattered all over the place by now!       And why the hell did they have so many rusks?  Other reports state 2 to 3 bags of rusks!!!    shock1      That must have been some outstanding rye bread!!!   Where did these rye rusks come from??

(https://preview.ibb.co/maEC0y/Semyon_Zolotaryov_11.jpg)

 
Quote
On top of all things lay a ski pole cut into several pieces, on which, apparently, the northern end of the tent was stretched. Render a ski pole unusable, especially when the group didn't have a spare, is possible only under special circumstances.

This is the infamous "tactical tripod" that acording to the Ball Lightening theory was used to...... capture images that dont exist.    nea1

(https://preview.ibb.co/knQDJJ/srgjysdry2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bAShCd)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iiBW5y/H_lka.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ezRaXd)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mnoEsd/dtyjdty2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/noXw5y)



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V. L. LEBEDEV WITNESS TESTIMONY   <---------  member of one of the three search groups under SLOBTSOV gives testimony to what SLOBTSOV told them upon meeting them at the campsite.   This is relayed information to a guy that was not at the first discovery of the tent himself.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-313-315?rbid=17743

Quote
they went along the slope of the elevation to the black spot attracting their attention, which was torn and half-buried by Dyatlov's tent. From their words, only the front part of the tent was not spilled. Near the tent was lying (or rather stood) an ice ax, with which they tried to dig up the piled up part of the tent in the hope of finding someone there. They also found a cut of one slope of the tent.

He was told they found 'a' cut on the slope of the tent.       wink1

Quote
Since it was already late, they, having captured an ice pick, camera, diary (it seems, Slobodin), a Chinese flashlight and some. other things, which I do not remember exactly, returned with a guide to the place where they slept and told us about what they saw

The first party to reach the tent ,used the axe found near the tent........ to hack away at the evidence buried below.  thumb1

Quote
The middle of the tent failed, the tent itself was torn, maybe our guys (Sharavin and Slobtsov) broke it, but on the slope that was turned down, there was a clear even cut, made in my knife.

Whoa whoa whoa there cowboy.....  you say the middle of the tent failed.... is there perhaps a support pole in the middle of this tent that could have damaged the canvas upon its collapse?     There is that word again.... 'torn'.  This isn't a plural usage of the term being used by all these guys, and he blatantly admits that "maybe our guys (Sharavin and Slobtsov) broke it"     bat1 bat1


The next day LEBEDEV WAS at the tent..... 

Quote
The next day, in the morning, in the presence of Comrade. Ivanova, all things from the tent were extracted Lebedev (signature) / Two lines crossed out by me Lebedev (signature) /
 
Sheet 315
Things in the tent were many. Near the entrance to the tent, which seems to have been opened, in the cover lay a stove. The pipes of the latter were inside the stove, which indicates that the stove was not attempted to be diluted (crossed out), although behind the tent on the street at the rear end of the tent in the snow I found a log, undoubtedly intended for the stove.
Inside the tent were found buckets, at the entrance lay an ax, it seems, 2, and saw in the covers. In the head (if you stand facing the entrance of the tent, then on the right side of it, which is lower on the slope) there were personal belongings of the deceased and food products (?) From backpacks. At the very end of the tent, things were discovered by Dyatlov (a field bag containing money, documents, diaries, a camera, etc. Then Slobodin and Kolevatov lay in my place, because there were their belongings. At the entrance to the tent lay either the duty officer or the manager that there were cut pieces of ham found here, and it seems that only one piece was eaten (there was a crust), in one of the mugs there were, in my opinion, the remains of oatmeal porridge, possibly the morning remains. "our guys broke up when, for the first time, an ice pick cleared In general, there were few products in the tent (five days at most), which convinced us that the woodpeckers had made a storage, which we later learned from the diary, it seems, was Dyatlov, and then found out by the crocs they composed. /> In the tent there were several pairs of felt boots, except for one pair of shoes, almost all the outer clothing. In the tent we found a ski stick from which the upper end was cut along the neat end cut and another incision was made. This suggests that apparently someone stayed in the tent much later than others, maybe for a day. Because the person from nothing to do will not cut the stick, which can still come in handy. In one place of the tent she was torn and then fastened with a pin.


 "In one place of the tent"  shock1    Sooooo,  "torn' and fastened with 'a' pin.....   okey1     Funny,  SLOBTSOV the day before and in his testimony didn't mention anything about opening the front of the tent.     neg1

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A TMANAKI WITNESS TESTIMONY  <---------  member of Karelin rescue group
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-209-220?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Georgiy-Atmanaki.jpg)


Quote
On February 26, at 12 noon, we were loaded into a helicopter and dropped off on the saddle to the right of the scallop on the pass to Lozvy and a height of 880
Quote
on the pass (the first) met several people from the group of Slobtsov who approximately indicated to us the location of the tent of the group Dyatlov. The rest of the people of the Slobtsov group were at the scallops on the pass, because later discovered the discovery of
... influenced them, that they are completely demoralized and lost all capacity for work

Quote
They did not make a detailed inspection of the tent, because they explained that they were afraid to see their comrades in it.The tent stood sideways to the slope by the entrance to the east, the entrance was unbuttoned but piled in half with buckets

Quote
the north side of the tent was torn

There's that non plural terminology again.......  Im not seeing any further description of multiple tears, holes, flaps, missing chunks..... nada.

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V. I. TEMPALOV WITNESS TESTIMONY  <------------  The Prosecutor in the criminal case
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Vasily-Tempalov.jpg)

Quote
At first glance, the tent was covered with snow. It was installed on a platform leveled by the students dug out. A tent with a windy side was torn in the middle part.

'Middle part' eh........   thats it!?   At least he noted the tear was on the windy side.    nose1

This is the only place where Tempalov found damage in the tent, which means that there were no cuts from which the tourists were escaping from the tent!

Quote
a flask empty from alcohol or vodka, the smell was felt------------I got the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack

 whist1

 
Quote
From a number of testimonies of witnesses it is clear to me that these days in the mountains and not only in the mountains there was a strong wind and it was very cold. Based on the discovered bodies (in the number of five people), the situation in which they were to me it becomes clear that all the students were frozen, the attack on them is excluded

 nose1



E.P. MASLENNIKOV WITNESS TESTIMONY  <------------Master of Sports, Head of the UPI sports club
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-062-075?rbid=17743
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Evgeny-Polikarpovich-Maslennikov.jpg)

Quote
28.2.59 was examined Tent Dyatlov. Tent inspection showed that it remained almost all personal belongings Group, as well as public equipment.

Feb 28th? 

 
Quote
its entrance facing the south side and on that side extensions were intact, and stretching north side disrupted and therefore the entire second half of the tent was covered with snow

The north side was 'disrupted'.   nose1     Now only half the tent was covered in snow.    whacky1

Quote
When the inspection was over the tent, we dragged her to the helipad at a distance of 600-700 meters.

Holy batshit!   700 freaking meters man!!!!    Thats a crazy long distance to be DRAGGING one of the most important articles of evidence over jagged rocks and ice! 



Sections, cuts, and huge holes in the north side of the tent appeared after Tempalov VI. He examined the tent and instructed the students to collect it and all the things and drag it 700 meters to the helicopter to be transported to Ivdel for "research" . The tent was frozen to dense snow, so the students cut out and pulled it out of the frozen snow and ice.

Pull out the contents (likely through the side)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-007.jpg)


And chop/slice/shovel that tent out of the hard ice encrusted snow in which its half buried in.   Dig men..... dig!

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-004.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg)



Now....  drag that sucker 700 meters over rocks and ice to the chopper.....  stat!

Meanwhile back in Ivdel the young rookie investigator Vladimir Korotaev and a cunning seamstress have no darn clue what to make of it other then assumptions.    bang1

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-Vladimir-Korotaev.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg)



The tent was in terrible condition, with multiple tears, and cuts and in some places there were punctured and burned holes, and 2 large pieces of canvas were cut / torn out of its lateral part. It is impossible to imagine how it was possible to conduct research on the tent, after it was ruined by search students.




So....... what have we learned from this? 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 29, 2018, 08:15:24 PM
Now.....    lets take a look at this inspection of the tent case file and the analysis of the cuts that were reported as having been made from the inside.


Quote
As a result of the foregoing, and when examining the edges of all the damages on the tent, one can conclude that three damages /conditionally marked № 1, 2, 3 / came as a result of contact with some sharp weapon /knife/, i.e. are cuts. Yet the rest of the damage is a tear.

(https://image.ibb.co/jyvsdJ/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

So the cuts shown above are the ONLY ones of the ENTIRE tent that are reported to be cut from the inside. 

Now.......   Does anyone here believe NINE full size adult bodies jumped out of those holes? 

Where are the analysis reports on cuts made from the outside?

Is it possible said 'inside' cuts are nothing more then a result of being chopped/dug out of the icy hardened snow using shovels and ice axes?  Or perhaps the results of having been dragged 700m = 1/2 mile over sharp rocks and ice?

Is it possible said inside cuts were created after damage to the tent resulted in the material being peeled back exposing the inside making it now..... the outside? 

It is of my opinion that there can be NO declaration based on any substantive evidence the 9 victims ever sliced their way out of the tent to begin with. And along with that, any theory solely based on them having done so is HEAVILY flawed. 

Those who saw the tent after the search students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search students to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was created that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during their departure.

Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 29, 2018, 08:54:02 PM
You have made one hell of an argument and now I see why your brain is fried.

What have I learned from this?

Where'd this flask of alcohol come from? I've never seen this testimony before. So was there alcohol or not?

No matter, if 9 people took a big swig out of a flask of vodka to cut the winter chill after hunkering down for the night, I don't see them being piss-ass fall-over drunk. Just partaking of a time-honored Russian tradition.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 29, 2018, 09:02:48 PM
Quote
So was there alcohol or not

Yes, and it would appear to be two flasks/jars, because SLOBTSOVs group took one back to camp day 1 of 'inspecting' the tent.  TEMPALOV found one that was still inside the tent.    tongue2
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 30, 2018, 01:13:58 PM
You need to consider seeing a physician for that serious ADHD you have. I don't know how you are able to turn over so much information at the speed that you do, but Adderall is a hellofa drug.

Whatever keeps you moving all over this site, navigating it like nobody's business, knowing every detail of every document available to support every argument that exists in the forum. Kill the competition like a man on a mission, eh? THIS IS NOT NORMAL! Your handle, LC, is insanely fitting. You are indeed a rogue agent among us and unpredictable as all get-out.

Look, I get tired just looking for the supporting evidence for any discrepancies I need to hand over to Teddy to be fixed or even just if I want to write a thread to stimulate Forum activity. You seem to be able to jump from document to document and the documents are spread from one end of the Site to the other in semi-organizational order. What you are doing is taking evidence from the victims section for example and another thing from the search party category then you go into the Forum and pepper your thread with bits and pieces from conversations...but it's like you know every single document that exists within the entirety of the Site, and you know exactly where to find it whenever you need it at any given time. Not just that, you know exactly what singular evidenciary piece you need to copy/paste within the document or circle within a photograph.  Then to pull all of it together in one argument in one place....

You work like you yourself are a computer. We can't even begin to keep up with you!You need methamphetamines man!

I honestly think that whole thing should be featured on the front page of the Site authored by you! It's truly great work.

Also, I think you should cut and paste it to somehow fit in with the Inspection of the Tent thread in Case Files since this is under Witness Testimonies.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 30, 2018, 01:23:04 PM
Quote
So was there alcohol or not

Yes, and it would appear to be two flasks/jars, because SLOBTSOVs group took one back to camp day 1 of 'inspecting' the tent.  TEMPALOV found one that was still inside the tent.    tongue2

I thought I read somewhere that one flask certainly belonged to Kolevatov. The one that the initial search party used for their toast that evening when somebody stepped out of line and suggested they were drinking to the dead rather than the lost is actually the medicinal alcohol that was brought with them as part of the emergency/first aid supplies.

NOTE: I will gladly move this inquisition to another appropriate thread if we have one just tell me where.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 30, 2018, 02:21:03 PM
Do you drink rubbing alcohol?

From what I read.....  nothing about medicinal alcohol, and Im guessing nobody actually knows who owned the (2) containers. 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 30, 2018, 03:09:06 PM
You need to consider seeing a physician for that serious ADHD you have. I don't know how you are able to turn over so much information at the speed that you do, but Adderall is a hellofa drug.

Whatever keeps you moving all over this site, navigating it like nobody's business, knowing every detail of every document available to support every argument that exists in the forum. Kill the competition like a man on a mission, eh? THIS IS NOT NORMAL! Your handle, LC, is insanely fitting. You are indeed a rogue agent among us and unpredictable as all get-out.

Look, I get tired just looking for the supporting evidence for any discrepancies I need to hand over to Teddy to be fixed or even just if I want to write a thread to stimulate Forum activity. You seem to be able to jump from document to document and the documents are spread from one end of the Site to the other in semi-organizational order. What you are doing is taking evidence from the victims section for example and another thing from the search party category then you go into the Forum and pepper your thread with bits and pieces from conversations...but it's like you know every single document that exists within the entirety of the Site, and you know exactly where to find it whenever you need it at any given time. Not just that, you know exactly what singular evidenciary piece you need to copy/paste within the document or circle within a photograph.  Then to pull all of it together in one argument in one place....

You work like you yourself are a computer. We can't even begin to keep up with you!You need methamphetamines man!

I honestly think that whole thing should be featured on the front page of the Site authored by you! It's truly great work.

Also, I think you should cut and paste it to somehow fit in with the Inspection of the Tent thread in Case Files since this is under Witness Testimonies.

Bah...    Your too kind!     Its just a collection of testimonies regarding the tent and my commentary.   
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on May 30, 2018, 03:35:18 PM
That's the problem. Everything is so spread out it's hard to keep up with everything and in this case it comes together to put everything into perspective in one place. That's what we need to be doing with a lot of the other evidence!
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: cz on May 30, 2018, 05:28:15 PM
Now.....    lets take a look at this inspection of the tent case file and the analysis of the cuts that were reported as having been made from the inside.


Quote
As a result of the foregoing, and when examining the edges of all the damages on the tent, one can conclude that three damages /conditionally marked № 1, 2, 3 / came as a result of contact with some sharp weapon /knife/, i.e. are cuts. Yet the rest of the damage is a tear.

(https://image.ibb.co/jyvsdJ/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

So the cuts shown above are the ONLY ones of the ENTIRE tent that are reported to be cut from the inside. 

Now.......   Does anyone here believe NINE full size adult bodies jumped out of those holes? 

Where are the analysis reports on cuts made from the outside?

Is it possible said 'inside' cuts are nothing more then a result of being chopped/dug out of the icy hardened snow using shovels and ice axes?  Or perhaps the results of having been dragged 700m = 1/2 mile over sharp rocks and ice?

Is it possible said inside cuts were created after damage to the tent resulted in the material being peeled back exposing the inside making it now..... the outside? 

It is of my opinion that there can be NO declaration based on any substantive evidence the 9 victims ever sliced their way out of the tent to begin with. And along with that, any theory solely based on them having done so is HEAVILY flawed. 

Those who saw the tent after the search students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search students to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was created that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during their departure.

What an impressive and valuable collection of material!  clap1

My reading of Churkina's report is that she studied all damage and could only identify three cuts. All of these were made from the inside. So that would mean there are no cuts made from the outside.

Cuts 2 and 3 may have been longer or even connected, given that the canvas was obviously already lost when Churkina analyzed the tent.

I agree that many options are conceivable as a cause of these cuts. To me, the Dyatlov group remains one of them. Escape may not have been the initial reason to cut the tent though.

The notion of "torn" is one of the red lines in the testemonies. Just one point which may be worth keeping in mind in interpreting these statements. These people certainly talked to each other and whitnesses and their memories are often easily influenced by others (a sufficiently influential person amomg them suffices). One sign for this is common terminology. No idea whether this is relevant here. Just a remark and of course I do not know the Russian text...
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 30, 2018, 05:45:03 PM
If 2 and 3 were connected, this would mean someone managed to cut an elaborate 'S' shape into thick icey canvas for a side departure of 9 adults at waist level.    wink1

I just find it ironic how all three of these 'cuts' have the same curve radius that looks a lot like the curved head of a........  shovel. 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: cz on May 31, 2018, 03:58:45 PM
If 2 and 3 were connected, this would mean someone managed to cut an elaborate 'S' shape into thick icey canvas for a side departure of 9 adults at waist level.    wink1

I just find it ironic how all three of these 'cuts' have the same curve radius that looks a lot like the curved head of a........  shovel.

It is true. Connecting 2&3 requires an awkward move. Quite unlikely.

I had a similar impression about cut 1. It consists of 3 individual sections, which I thought might have been caused by a shovel head (photo 4). However, two of them start exactly from within another -- no overlap. Unlikely if caused by a shovel. Might be three cuts starting with the right one on photo 4.

And yes. Neither cut have been very useful for an escape.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Mash on June 01, 2018, 05:14:52 AM

I just find it ironic how all three of these 'cuts' have the same curve radius that looks a lot like the curved head of a........  shovel. 

Hmmmm..., no  nea1, I don`t think that's ironic. Let me try to explain and do a little experiment: Lay your back on the floor. Put a blanket/cover over you (it's like a tent that fell on you). Lift your arm and make a movement with your finger as if you were cutting the blanket. You will see it would not be a straight line but it would look like a light "C" or a curved head of a shovel.

(My theory is the "snowboard theory" that surprised the group in the tent and this description fits to this experiment).

Hope you understand me... perhaps my english isn`t sometimes very clear  excuseme .
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 01, 2018, 07:54:35 AM
Except cut #1 actually is comprised of two separate shovel stabs, and cut #2 the curve direction is opposite of the other two....  and your theory.    wink1

Plus,  cut #2 would require an unrealistic arm length. 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 01, 2018, 11:33:49 AM

It is of my opinion that there can be NO declaration based on any substantive evidence the 9 victims ever sliced their way out of the tent to begin with. And along with that, any theory solely based on them having done so is HEAVILY flawed. 

Those who saw the tent after the search students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search students to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was created that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during their departure.


I fully agree with all the above, without any reservations.

There is no reason whatsoever to take for granted that the nine students made the cuts in the tent, and there is even less ground for assuming that they left the tent through these cuts. Is is good that we seem to be able to put that myth to rest once and for all.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Teddy on June 02, 2018, 12:02:56 AM
Excelent work Loose}{Cannon.

Semyon Zolotaryov with a bag of rusks in city of Serov - 24 Jan 1959
(https://preview.ibb.co/maEC0y/Semyon_Zolotaryov_11.jpg)

... but what you have circled in the images from 41st district is fresh bread

Dyatlov Group diary

1.27.59
The weather’s really good. The wind is at our backs, and the lads made a deal with the locals for a horse to drive us to Second North settlement.
But it will be about 24 km from the 41st Settlement. We helped Uncle Slava unload hay from a carriage and waited for the horse (it went to get more hay and wood). We waited until 4:00 PM.
The boys started copying some songs. One man sang beautifully. We heard a number of illegal prison songs (Article 58 counter-revolutionary crimes).
Before that we bought four loaves of bread. Soft warm bread. We ate 2 loaves.
Horse is slow. What a pleasure to go without backpacks.
We covered 8 km in 2 hours. (River Ushma).
It's getting dark. The horse is causing the delay. Yuri Yudin is still with us. He suddenly fell ill and he can't continue with the trek. He wants to gather few minerals for the University and return.
Second North is an abandoned geological site consisting of 20-25 houses. Only one is suitable for living. In complete darkness we found a village and the house. We started a fire with wood boards. Smoke came form the stove. Several people hurt their hands on old nails. Everything is well. Then the horse came. We were talking and joking till 3 in the morning.
Doroshenko
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 02, 2018, 05:20:35 AM
How do you know the bread is fresh?    lol1

In the quoted text, I don't seem to find anything about the scene of that picture.     dunno1

If they payed the loggers for this bread.....   I'm even more suspicious of the bread, and loggers.    bat1


Geez...   wonder why these guys know prison songs.    I save that for later
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 02, 2018, 11:37:00 AM
Because the journal entry written that day specifically states that they ate fresh, warm bread? Someone took the time to actually write out that oddly specific detail. I'd say it's rather important to keep in mind when looking at the photos and seeing a bunch of kids with bread in hand.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 02, 2018, 12:00:21 PM
Are we sure thats the day....  I.E, picture and entry?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Teddy on June 02, 2018, 02:05:46 PM
The photo and the entry are from the same day. What do you think are they eating?
https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries?lid=1#27jan (https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries?lid=1#27jan)
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 02, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
The photo and the entry are from the same day. What do you think are they eating?
https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries?lid=1#27jan (https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries?lid=1#27jan)

I dunno....  there is 24 hours in a day, and that bag Zolotaryov was carrying is in the picture.... opened.   Lets play 'wheres the rusk bag'.     lol2

OK...  they ate bread.   How does this change anything?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 02, 2018, 03:21:24 PM
I don't know it's just fun to follow you in every thread and bat for the opposite side of your argument  lol1 lol2

Seriously though, I do think they were eating fresh, warm bread--NOT husks--just because of the diary entry itself: it was like he was writing about it in an other worldly sense--that fresh, warm bread is a delicacy. They were savoring the moment. They wanted to eternalize this memory of this fresh, warm bread and took a picture to remember all of the wonders of the fresh, warm bread in their hands on a really cold day in the snow.

Nothing like fresh, warm bread you know? Ever walked into a kitchen where fresh, warm bread is baking? The smell of yeast from fresh, warm bread is like "home" and a hug. Fresh, warm bread is the sustenance of generations since antiquity after all.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 02, 2018, 09:40:30 PM
No matter, if 9 people took a big swig out of a flask of vodka to cut the winter chill after hunkering down for the night, I don't see them being piss-ass fall-over drunk. Just partaking of a time-honored Russian tradition.

There's no amount of drinking I've ever done that would cause me to abandon a warm tent for trying to survive the Siberian winter in the woods. But then again, I'm not one to pass out in the bushes. Always found may way home to a bed.

Still, 9 people aren't going to be pass-out drunks that manage to hike a thousand meters to a mile in deep snow without shoes to the woods, and then build a fire and make a snow den.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 02, 2018, 09:44:16 PM
There is no reason whatsoever to take for granted that the nine students made the cuts in the tent, and there is even less ground for assuming that they left the tent through these cuts. Is is good that we seem to be able to put that myth to rest once and for all.

But it makes the story so much better! I'm now convinced as well that there's no way to say they cut their way out of the tent. It's amazing how every single recounting of the incident has them cutting their way out of the tent.

It makes me wonder what else everyone got wrong.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 02, 2018, 09:49:52 PM
It is of my opinion that there can be NO declaration based on any substantive evidence the 9 victims ever sliced their way out of the tent to begin with. And along with that, any theory solely based on them having done so is HEAVILY flawed. 

Do you have a theory as to what happened? So they probably didn't cut their way out. That means they were neither buried, smoked out, or freaked out to the point of destroying their tent (or at least exposing the inside to the cold). Nor did some other group cut it open to force them out.

So now what? They exited the tent the old fashioned way and proceeded to hike down to the tree line without proper clothing? Because ...?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 02, 2018, 09:56:19 PM
Quote
This suggests that apparently someone stayed in the tent much later than others, maybe for a day. Because the person from nothing to do will not cut the stick, which can still come in handy.

I've never seen this speculation before. Interesting! Is it possible one of them stayed behind? But that makes no sense, because the next day they should have been able to leave the tent fully clothed. And how could they stay behind if there was such an emergency that the other eight had to flee?

Leaving one person behind at the tent to help guild them back to the tent would make sense, if the problem was inside the tent, and that person was more fully clothed because they had left the tent to take a leak, or snap pictures of lights in the sky. But then what?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Mash on June 04, 2018, 07:05:11 AM
Except cut #1 actually is comprised of two separate shovel stabs, and cut #2 the curve direction is opposite of the other two....  and your theory.    wink1

Plus,  cut #2 would require an unrealistic arm length.

First, we quickly forget this drawing. For me it's just an undetailed, inaccurate drawing I can not work with:
 
(https://image.ibb.co/c3i758/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3_Kopie.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)



This one is much better and more detailed. You can work better with these things (then things become clearer):

(https://preview.ibb.co/dZZpk8/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jrvJdT)

(https://preview.ibb.co/mcdtCo/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n9DRXo)

source: http://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 04, 2018, 07:26:26 AM
(https://preview.ibb.co/mcdtCo/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_2.jpg)

Is this an official sketch from the case files I'm not familiar with?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 04, 2018, 06:22:01 PM

(https://preview.ibb.co/mcdtCo/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n9DRXo)

source: http://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0

Explain to me the person figure drawn on the new tent sketch please?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 04, 2018, 07:16:32 PM
Here's the deal. 

We have ONE original drawing (the one you don't like).  Clearly shown on the original drawing used as evidence of the case is 'cut' #3 having a curvature that is the opposite direction from 'cut' #2.

Unfortunately, the new sketch is fake news.  The curvature of 'cut' #3 has been inverted to match the curvature orientation of 'cut' #2.   This is yet another failed attempt to alter facts and reality for the sole purpose of pushing an agenda based narrative.  The sad part is, whomever thus far has seen this scetch has been fooled. 

Just keeping it real. 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 05, 2018, 04:04:35 AM
It is of my opinion that there can be NO declaration based on any substantive evidence the 9 victims ever sliced their way out of the tent to begin with. And along with that, any theory solely based on them having done so is HEAVILY flawed. 

Do you have a theory as to what happened? So they probably didn't cut their way out. That means they were neither buried, smoked out, or freaked out to the point of destroying their tent (or at least exposing the inside to the cold). Nor did some other group cut it open to force them out.

So now what? They exited the tent the old fashioned way and proceeded to hike down to the tree line without proper clothing? Because ...?


There is nothing to indicate that they cut their way out. There never was anything to indicate that. It has been a very unfortunate misleading assumption.

The mistaken assumption that they cut their own tent made it it seem probable that the students left the tent voluntarily from their own free will, and thus the attention was diverted away from the really relevant question of what could have made them leave when there was no avalanches, no physical problems with the tent, no fire and no indications of mental confusion. Remember, the very last thing the students did was to make a humorous internal "newspaper" called the "Otorten evening news." This fact shows us the good atmosphere and the absence of any kind of problems until something terrible suddenly happened.

A realistic judgment of the whole sequence of events should tell us that there is nothing that could make the nine hikers leave their tent without proper clothing and expose themselves to the Siberian winter in that condition, unless they were forced at gunpoint to leave. This only sensible conclusion also follows from the bodily damage they sustained, and from the evident attempts at concealment by governmental agencies. We need to bear in mind that the local investigators were instructed to close the investigation with the desired conclusion of an accident and "mistakes by Igor Dyatlov." Which of course is a rather strong indication in itself.

However, what we are now doing is to proceed in the correct way. We are not jumping to conclusions. Even if everything points to a terrible crime, such a conclusion should never come as a simple statement without being backed up.

Instead we go through the possibilities one by one. That way, a picture of what probably happened will emerge little by little. Now it becomes increasingly clear that there never was any ground for supposing that the nine students cut their tent, and that there is absolutely nothing to indicate that they left the tent through these cuts.

That is an important step along the way.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Mash on June 05, 2018, 06:46:17 AM
If you look at both pictures I've posted, you'll get an explanation for themselves. But well, I'll explain it:

Introducion/prolog:

These are 3 pictures from the original expertise (tent): https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-303-304?rbid=17743

(https://image.ibb.co/mOWaA8/Dyatlov_pass_case_files_Churkina_photo_01_en.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://image.ibb.co/ktrE3T/Dyatlov_pass_case_files_Churkina_photo_03_en.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
This photo needs to be opened to see it completely

(https://image.ibb.co/eOmgiT/Dyatlov_pass_case_files_Churkina_photo_04_en.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

We also have an original photo from 1959. The tent is set up after the rescue. Probably everyone has seen it before: https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search#the-tent

(https://preview.ibb.co/i6c1Ho/Dyatlov_pass_tent_02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iUmvco)

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Mash on June 05, 2018, 08:51:18 AM

Number 1 (drawing, excerpt from the original report):

(https://image.ibb.co/jbipno/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

This sketch is not detailed and it is very faulty. On the first view.., okay, let`s say at the second view that`s obvious. Something is wrong here. Here was drawn too inaccurate:

1. Do you agree with me if I say cut 2 looks twice as long as cut 1? But then the measurements do not agree 89 cm and 31 cm! (which are correct, I'll come to that later). The proportions of the lengths are therefore not drawn correctly.



2. The tent has a total length of 433 cm. In addition, the tent in reality is much flatter and longer than on the sketch (Also look at the original picture from 1959)

3. The sections 1 and 2 which are drawn are too close to the entrance (I'll come to that later). Compare it with the photo from 1959.

4. It has already been pointed out that this drawing is very flawed: "g. Churkina's drawing is not only overly schematic but also the positioning, sizes and number of cuts are not accurate" https://dyatlovpass.com/1959-search#the-tent



Number 2 (original picture from 1959 and additional measures): http://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=5623.0

(https://preview.ibb.co/nq0zL8/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iNfzL8)

We have the following facts: "The total length of the tent /by the top seam/ is 4m.33 cm" and "Damage # 1 is shaped in the form of a broken straight line, its total length is 32 cm. Above it there is a small puncture of the tissue in 2 cm. The corners of the hole are torn. /see photo №4 /. Damage # 2 and 3 have a non-uniform arcuate shape. The approximate length of these lesions is 89 cm and 42 cm. from the right edge of damage # 2 and from both edges of damage # 3 there are no cloth flaps and it is possible that they had their continuation further." (act of Criminalistic expertise/tent) https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-303-304?rbid=17743

The producer of this photo was oriented at the center of the tent. You can see the middle very well. It's the metal ring on the roof. A pole was inserted vertically in the tent for stability. He indicates the length to the middle with about 200 cm (ca. 200 cm). He has even more clues for the dimensions of the tent, but listing all is really too much now! The producer added the other measurements and also inserted the photos from sections 1 and 3 correctly.


Number 3 (it's a sketch of number 2 to show it better!  I`ve "pulled" this original sketch so it`s even more clearer):

(https://preview.ibb.co/cZEMk8/Zelt_Schnitte_Wladimir_P_3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jcubJT)

It shows the most important measures of length and the cuts 1, 2 and 3 in the approximate correct position. It`s probably the cut 2 and 3 have met and there is a total large cut with the length of about 165 cm (89 cm + ca. 35 cm (destroyed) + 42 cm = 166 cm).

@CalzagheChick
The figure on drawing number 3 is less important. It has also become much wider because of the "pulling" of the picture. The figure is just an example how the person lies in the tent and made the cuts lying on his back.

Most important is photo number 2, the collage!

Sketch number 3 is a summary of number 1 and number 2!


 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 05, 2018, 11:00:18 AM
Love your work Mash. Hope to see so much more from you in other threads!!!
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 05, 2018, 02:34:57 PM

Most important is photo number 2, the collage!

Sketch number 3 is a summary of number 1 and number 2!


Yes, that is all very interesting, Mash.

What conclusions, if any, do you feel able to draw from the material presented?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on June 05, 2018, 06:37:44 PM
My only issue is that the curvature of #3 has been completely flipped the opposite direction.  Regardless as to how you feel about its accuracy,  you cannot simply manipulatee the original case files to fit your theory. 
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 06, 2018, 12:02:41 AM
I'm not so sure that #3 was flipped... there are 2 edges from the slash, top flap then bottom flap. The top edge is curved one way, verifiable by collage photo #2 and the bottom edge is a little more subtle but it's curved according to the collage photo #2 as well. Of course it took a few minutes to verify that, but it's there. Or I'm just an idiot and see something that's not there. It can go either way on the conclusion.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 06, 2018, 01:36:02 AM
A realistic judgment of the whole sequence of events should tell us that there is nothing that could make the nine hikers leave their tent without proper clothing and expose themselves to the Siberian winter in that condition, unless they were forced at gunpoint to leave.

It would seem that way, but I hate going the conspiracy route.

Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen
The mistaken assumption that they cut their own tent made it it seem probable that the students left the tent voluntarily from their own free will, and thus the attention was diverted away from the really relevant question of what could have made them leave when there was no avalanches, no physical problems with the tent, no fire and no indications of mental confusion.

Right, if those other things can be reasonably ruled out then, the human element becomes more plausible. I just don't know why it would be important enough to kill 9 hikers out in the wilderness in the middle of the winter.

Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen
This only sensible conclusion also follows from the bodily damage they sustained, and from the evident attempts at concealment by governmental agencies.

I'm not sure about the bodily damage, but the authorities did act as if they had something to conceal. What that means, I don't know. Could be they just didn't like leaving an unsolved mystery hanging, and 1959 Soviet Russia was supposed to be some sort of ideal state.

Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on June 06, 2018, 03:50:29 AM
I'd like to see the recent picture #3 superimposed onto #2 The Collage so that we may possibly verify that these photos are giving us the full picture or a better picture per se everthing is Kosher and at least somewhat paints a correct picture!  okey1
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 06, 2018, 06:28:59 AM
A realistic judgment of the whole sequence of events should tell us that there is nothing that could make the nine hikers leave their tent without proper clothing and expose themselves to the Siberian winter in that condition, unless they were forced at gunpoint to leave.

It would seem that way, but I hate going the conspiracy route.

Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen
The mistaken assumption that they cut their own tent made it it seem probable that the students left the tent voluntarily from their own free will, and thus the attention was diverted away from the really relevant question of what could have made them leave when there was no avalanches, no physical problems with the tent, no fire and no indications of mental confusion.

Right, if those other things can be reasonably ruled out then, the human element becomes more plausible. I just don't know why it would be important enough to kill 9 hikers out in the wilderness in the middle of the winter.

Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen
This only sensible conclusion also follows from the bodily damage they sustained, and from the evident attempts at concealment by governmental agencies.

I'm not sure about the bodily damage, but the authorities did act as if they had something to conceal. What that means, I don't know. Could be they just didn't like leaving an unsolved mystery hanging, and 1959 Soviet Russia was supposed to be some sort of ideal state.


1. I do not mean to be rude in any way, but what exactly do you mean by writing "It would seem that way, but I hate going the conspiracy route."?

Please explain precisely why you use that age-old manipulative technique.

I have every reason to believe that you did not have any evil or manipulative intention, but why think in terms of "conspiracy route" and the suggestion of conspiracy thinking? Should we just state that "Nine bodies were found, but we cannot understand why anyone would want to kill them, so therefore they were probably not murdered and every suggestion that they might have been murdered is conspiracy thinking"?

The world history is replete with homicides concealed as "suicides", "accidents" and "natural deaths."

The situation is that nine bodies were found, and it should be imperative to ask what was the cause of their death. When nine people are found dead, it seems strange to call it a "conspiracy route" when it is pointed out that many if not all the pieces of evidence we have would indicate that the nine hikers perished as a result of a criminal act. If we take a calm look at this, we should see that suggestions that "we are on a conspiracy route if we find it possible or probable that this was murder" just serve to put people in a bad light and stop discussion. It is salutary to bear in mind that this is a manipulative technique used by authoritarian and totalitarian governments all over the world in order to try to deprive critics of their credibility: "He/She is a conspirationist, don't listen to him/her." That is unworthy, it is improper behavior and prevents an open discussion.

2. "I just don't know why it would be important enough to kill 9 hikers out in the wilderness in the middle of the winter."

The truth is that we cannot know.

To know the motive behind a murder is often impossible to know, unless a murderer has been caught in the act. We can speculate, but in cases where no murderer is caught we have to first accept that we cannot know precisely why the murder took place. We can theorize, but any theorizing about motive must be speculative until we know with certainty. That does not imply it cannot be murder.

If we find a dead person, or several dead persons, what should we do then?

- If there is no obvious motive behind a murder, should we think that if there is no obvious motive it cannot be homicide?

- Or, should we rather try to find out what actually caused the death or deaths?

All the murderers and all the totalitarian and dictatorial governments in the world would certainly be happy if we were to chose the first mode of reasoning.

3. "I'm not sure about the bodily damage, but the authorities did act as if they had something to conceal. What that means, I don't know. Could be they just didn't like leaving an unsolved mystery hanging, and 1959 Soviet Russia was supposed to be some sort of ideal state."

I do not want to argue about the first point there, just encourage you to take a look at the individuals' injuries in isolation and then view all the injuries in the context. A good place to start is here: https://dyatlovpass.com/death

The second point is also interesting. Many things could be the case. The challenge and the question is to find out what is more likely.

When nine people die with the injuries described in the document above and no natural phenomena can obviously fit in as cause of the deaths, we must ask ourselves why we are prone to ruling out the possibility of murder - when that possibility can explain incomparably much more.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 06, 2018, 07:18:46 AM
My only issue is that the curvature of #3 has been completely flipped the opposite direction.  Regardless as to how you feel about its accuracy,  you cannot simply manipulatee the original case files to fit your theory.

I see an even bigger problem here. A much bigger problem.

Look at the original picture from 1959. It shows a very damaged tent.

However, there is the problem.

I will quote from Svetlans Oss' "Don't go there":

"A more detailed account of the cuts and tears of the tent can be found in the chapter devoted to the criminal case file, but at this point it should be noted that Sharavin later said that he also made a hole on the ridge of the tent with an ice pick and then tore the tent horizontally. Because the rescue team was in shock and hadn't even considered that their fellow students were dead, they didn't treat the crime scene with proper care, nor did they preserve all the evidence for the investigation."

Sharavin confirmed that he made a hole in the tent and then tore and destroyed it even more. That is fully consistent with the damage that can be seen in the picture from 1959. Thus, the information above suggests the very real possibility that the greatest damage to the tent might have been done by the rescue team. We must therefore conclude that it is not possible to use the cuts in the tent to prove any of the possible theories. This simply because the rescuers damaged the tent severely, and there is no way to tell what the tent looked like before that happened.

The precise extent of the damage done by the rescuers cannot be established, but it is quite probable that the rescuers did the greatest damage - and made the hole in the tent which has subsequently been used to argue that the nine students cut their way out of the tent.

We can safely conclude this:

- There is no evidence that the Dyatlov group cut their tent.

- There is no evidence that the Dyatlov group left the tent through the cuts.

So, why would we assume these things then?

Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Marchesk on June 06, 2018, 07:53:14 AM
Please explain precisely why you use that age-old manipulative technique.

I have every reason to believe that you did not have any evil or manipulative intention, but why think in terms of "conspiracy route" and the suggestion of conspiracy thinking? Should we just state that "Nine bodies were found, but we cannot understand why anyone would want to kill them, so therefore they were probably not murdered and every suggestion that they might have been murdered is conspiracy thinking"?

Because we don't have evidence of anyone else being on the mountain that night. It appears they died of the elements. As for their injuries, I'm not qualified to determine whether they could have happened from falling out of trees and collapsing snow dens, or from something else. Also, it was in the wilderness in the middle of winter involving a group of people whose goal was to achieve an advanced hiking rating. That's hardly a reason to go out of your way in those conditions to murder them.

Possibly the Mansi were incensed at having women camping on their mountain which they lied about not being sacred, or the loggers were insulted enough to go to such lengths, or the KGB thought some CIA meet up was happing. But I'm not aware of evidence for this. Same with the group stumbling across something they weren't supposed to see. So what was it that would have gotten them killed? They were by all accounts good soviets.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 06, 2018, 09:58:26 AM
Please explain precisely why you use that age-old manipulative technique.

I have every reason to believe that you did not have any evil or manipulative intention, but why think in terms of "conspiracy route" and the suggestion of conspiracy thinking? Should we just state that "Nine bodies were found, but we cannot understand why anyone would want to kill them, so therefore they were probably not murdered and every suggestion that they might have been murdered is conspiracy thinking"?

Because we don't have evidence of anyone else being on the mountain that night. It appears they died of the elements. As for their injuries, I'm not qualified to determine whether they could have happened from falling out of trees and collapsing snow dens, or from something else. Also, it was in the wilderness in the middle of winter involving a group of people whose goal was to achieve an advanced hiking rating. That's hardly a reason to go out of your way in those conditions to murder them.

Possibly the Mansi were incensed at having women camping on their mountain which they lied about not being sacred, or the loggers were insulted enough to go to such lengths, or the KGB thought some CIA meet up was happing. But I'm not aware of evidence for this. Same with the group stumbling across something they weren't supposed to see. So what was it that would have gotten them killed? They were by all accounts good soviets.

Thank you for your answer. It is a basis for further reasoning for us all.

Also, everybody is encouraged to go through this page, read in analytically, and try to decide for yourself whether it is probable that the nine died of the works of the natural elements:

https://dyatlovpass.com/death

Then we go to the core of the matter here:

"Because we don't have evidence of anyone else being on the mountain that night."

We do not have evidence of anyone else being on the mountain that night. We can all agree about that.

- But does that imply that we should dismiss the possibility that the nine Dyatlov hikers became victims of murder?

- Realistically, given the circumstances we could hardly expect there to be any decisive evidence of anyone else having been there. From February 2 to February 26 when the tent was found, no less than 24 days passed. If there were other people there who killed the Dyatlov group, these people would either have been locals from the area or they were resourceful professionals who knew what to do. They would know how to camouflage their mission in such a way that it would appear that the nine who perished died as a result of exposure and some unfortunate accidents. Significantly, that was also the conclusion that the Soviet government wanted. Moscow dictated to the investigator Ivanov that the investigation be closed with the conclusion as mentioned above with the added suggestion that Igor Dyatlov made some "mistakes." 

If there indeed was a group on a deadly mission there, that group of resourceful and trained people would be careful not to leave any obvious evidence. But it would be difficult to avoid leaving footprints around the tent. Alas, footprints around the tent were not analyzed because the first rescuers who came to the Dyatlov pass on February 26 did not think of the area as a crime scene. If we think rationally about this, we quickly realize that the chances of finding any intact footprints after 24 days would be slim. Most of the traces made by the Dyatlov group were evidently gone. Few if any other footprints than the relatively well protected ones they made when they left the tent on their very last night in life were clearly visible. We can reasonably assume that if the murder theory is correct, the group of murderers would only leave footprints at the camp site. And these footprints, if they were at all distinguishable from those of the Dyatlov group, must have been largely destroyed by the first rescue team members who did not expect anything criminal.

When the killer squad approached the tent and when they later hunted down the students to make sure that all were dead, they would in all probability have used mountain skies. The trails made by such broad mountain skies are erased much faster in the landscape than are footprints, and also faster than the common narrower skis used by most tourists. Even granted that there were such evidence of the presence of another group, it stands to reason that such evidence would almost certainly have disappeared by February 26. Based on these observations, I find it rash and unfounded - and above all irresponsible towards those who died and their families - if we conclude that no crime was committed because there is no evidence of the presence of killers. Given the situation and the area combined with the time passed, the most unmistakable evidence would be irretrievably gone. The significant evidence we still have are the bodies and the autopsy reports, and bodies do not lie. Therefore it seems wise to concentrate our attention upon the bodies and what we can find out from them.

Are we to interpret the many severe and lethal injuries, the objectively strong indications of having been attacked by other humans, and the nine deaths as a result of non-criminal series of accidents (as the Soviet government wanted and dictated) because we have not caught the murderers in the act or found definitive evidence of their having been there?

My answer is "no." Others are free to think otherwise. I cannot and do not want to dictate conclusions, but let us remember that there were those who did just that in 1959.

As for theorizing around the precise identity of the murderers: If we were to cast suspicion on specific ones, we run the risk of condemning innocent people. In the absence of proof of a precise identity of the murderers, I prefer to refrain from stating who I may think were responsible. But I think we can take for granted that they were not loggers.

And after all the identity of the killers may not be the most important thing here. Those who decided to take the nine lives and those who accomplished their mission would now likely be long gone. But personally I would like to see an end to the denial of murder, and a more realistic approach to all the unsubstantiated theories of highly unlikely series of accidents, unproven effects of natural forces, yetis, UFOs, infrasound, ball lighting and fighting among the students themselves.

The theory of murder can explain the injuries and the deaths. No other theory can do that with a high degree of probability.

We are obliged towards the deceased nine students, their families and their friends, to carefully consider the most likely but also worst and most unpleasant possibility.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: sarapuk on October 04, 2018, 02:36:18 PM
This Topic starts of well but then gradually drifts of course, ie, we move into other Topics territory unnecessarily. Obviously the Tent is very important to the Dyatlov Mystery. It was their base and by all accounts they all left their base totally unequipped for the conditions outside. Rips or cuts were found in the Tent by the searchers. Most of the Dyatlov equipment including clothing was found in the Tent. Thats it, other than that we have nothing, no clues as to why they left the Tent the way they did. We cant do forensics now because the Tent which is very important evidence is MISSING.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Star man on December 12, 2018, 11:27:29 PM
LC you make a convincing argument about the amount of damage to the tent that could well have been caused during its recovery  thumb1.

It still seems to me though that the Dyatlov group either left the camp site in a hurry leaving their essential cold weather gear or they were forced.

What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: CalzagheChick on July 17, 2019, 12:50:52 PM
This is still by far my favorite thread in the forum because LC did such an amazing job of putting all evidence in one spot and supporting his ideas with the evidence.

I'm quite sure that his ultimate goal is to convince us that the tent is NOT admissible in the DPI mystery because of its sketchy collection and sketchy history thereafter. It's just not a reliable source of information when you're considering the possibility of capital murder. Would anybody in the forum put another human being's LIFE on the line based upon what we know about the tent as of today?

I will go ahead and be the first to say, I could not. I couldn't smear any good name or watch someone's life go on trial based upon the "evidence" presented by the remains of the tent.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 04:24:01 PM
This is still by far my favorite thread in the forum because LC did such an amazing job of putting all evidence in one spot and supporting his ideas with the evidence.

I'm quite sure that his ultimate goal is to convince us that the tent is NOT admissible in the DPI mystery because of its sketchy collection and sketchy history thereafter. It's just not a reliable source of information when you're considering the possibility of capital murder. Would anybody in the forum put another human being's LIFE on the line based upon what we know about the tent as of today?

I will go ahead and be the first to say, I could not. I couldn't smear any good name or watch someone's life go on trial based upon the "evidence" presented by the remains of the tent.

All evidence must be admissible if a proper investigation is under way. The TENT stands out as an important piece of evidence. Its disappearance allegedly down to some kind of damage caused to it while in storage. Sounds a bit iffy to Me.  !  ?
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 06:43:58 PM
I think there is a lot more then the tent that "disappeared".

Quote
The TENT stands out as an important piece of evidence

Perhaps re-read the original post?     dunno1
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: sarapuk on July 24, 2019, 02:25:24 PM
I think there is a lot more then the tent that "disappeared".

Quote
The TENT stands out as an important piece of evidence

Perhaps re-read the original post?     dunno1

All the main Evidence disappeared. The Bodies were soon buried after an Autopsy that fell short of the standards one might expect from such an Investigation.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 03, 2019, 12:30:48 PM
All evidence must be admissible if a proper investigation is under way. The TENT stands out as an important piece of evidence. Its disappearance allegedly down to some kind of damage caused to it while in storage. Sounds a bit iffy to Me.  !  ?

Since the Dyatlov group's tent is no longer available, it is impossible to say whether it could yield any important evidence.

Still, there are some significant details about that tent.

It is not possible to find out who made the cuts in the tent, or whether it was simply destroyed during the search or transportation.

We know that a seamstress is said to have stated that the tent was cut from the inside. But, that statement was never substantiated or confirmed by any kind of scientific analysis. So, we really do not know.

What we know, is that at the first stages of the investigation the local Mansi people in the area were said to be suspected in the case. We also know that the statement that the tent was cut from the inside, immediately prompted the suspicion of the Mansi to be lifted. This is very interesting, because there is no scientifically acceptable evidence recorded to demonstrate that the tent was cut from the inside.

The Mansi were said to be suspected, but then a dubious conclusion from a single seamstress was used to lift the suspicion. What could that possibly mean?

It may be that the Mansi were given a powerful message, and then let off the hook. It is not certain that this is the case, but it is not unreasonable to be open to that possibility.

There is no evidence that the Mansi were the killers, although it is still remotely possible.

We do however know that the Mansi lived in the area. That means, even if the Mansi were not responsible for the death of the Dyatlov group, they likely were aware of what happened. For example, it would be difficult to land a helicopter in the area without some of the Mansi observing it. If the Mansi observed something and knew that the nine students had been killed, their lives would be cheap if they told anyone what they knew. They certainly understood that themselves. But in order to drive home the message, some of the Mansi were brought in to interrogation. After a short time, the statement about the tent was announced, and the Mansi were suddenly let free.

That may have been a stern message to the Mansi: "We let you off the hook now, but be aware if you ever tell anyone what you have seen we will quickly produce new conclusions."

I do not say this is what actually happened, it is a theory. It may well be that the tent and the statement about the cuts is all pure sloppiness.

However, it should be considered that the local Mansi people may have been told to keep quiet in a very effective way, and if this happened it would explain the curious lack of any scientific examination of the tent.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: jarrfan on October 03, 2019, 05:43:28 PM
I read the Sharavin 2007-2008 report:

The representative indicates he believes the group were doused with rocket fuel and died from exposure to this toxic substance. The scene and bodies do not appear to have been nuked by rocket fuel.

First of all, rocket fuel is very flammable, if they had toxic fuel over their bodies, the last thing they would want to do is build a fire. The rocket fuel would have been on the tent and the smell and toxicity would have prevented the rescue team from handling it and not having a reaction. The fuel would have been all over the area, not just the tent. There might be dead birds, tree death, etc.

There was suggestion of an avalanche that the group tore out of their tent to escape from because of the birch tree bark sloughed off. Even if that happened, the group could have gone outside, surveyed the situation, and dug themselves out but still had the tent for safety. If there had been an avalanche, it could have been before the timing of their trip or after. Regardless, the tent was seen from the sky and on the ground the ice picket was stuck in the snow, so that tells me there was no avalanche.

Sharavin admits to making large cuts in the tent to look inside to see if someone were there. So how can he identify the cuts made by the group? So in realilty, we cannot confirm his cuts from that of the group?

Still nothing firm to consider the truth behind the mystery...
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 10, 2019, 07:09:17 PM
Sharavin admits to making large cuts in the tent to look inside to see if someone were there. So how can he identify the cuts made by the group? So in realilty, we cannot confirm his cuts from that of the group?


Exactly.

The cuts in themselves were invalid as evidence.
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: jarrfan on October 10, 2019, 10:27:30 PM
Not sure how they are invalid as evidence? The group had to exit the tent someway, if the cuts were made from the inside as has been attested to, they were in great fear for their life. If they walked out of the tent door, maybe not in such a rush....
Title: Re: Testimonies Regarding the Tent
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:28:09 PM
Quote
First of all, rocket fuel is very flammable, if they had toxic fuel over their bodies, the last thing they would want to do is build a fire

Or methanol....

If their clothing were saturated, it would make sense as to why Yuri had burned legs and the fire was a short lived idea.