Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Lightning strike / Ball lightning => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 10:11:53 AM

Title: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 10:11:53 AM
Fyi, this thread was created by Loose Cannon by copying several posts from another thread. So the thread title and the OP is not of my choosing.

Starts below :-

There's a good chance the solution is hidden in a secret archive and very few people have seen it's contents. One who did, Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 03, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
There's a good chance the solution is hidden in a secret archive and very few people have seen it's contents

Wild speculation


One who did, Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".

So, in the first sentence you make an assertion thats completely unsubstantiated, and in the second sentence you use it as a fact.  WEIRD!

The real problem is......  Your boy Ivanov was a crayon-eating window-licker that belonged on a short bus. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 04, 2018, 06:54:55 AM
Hey Loose Cannon me old sparring partner :-

"Wild speculation"
When I reported about my discoveries, the fire orbs and radioactivity, to A.F. Yeshtokin, he was very categorical in his orders: absolutely everything related to the must be made secret, classified, sealed, sent to special archives and forgotten. Am I to explain that orders had to be and were executed right off?

McCloskey, Keith. Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery (p. 144). Keith McCloskey. Kindle Edition.



"Ivanov a professional criminal investigator maintained that "it must have been the fire orbs".

It is not my purpose to find excuses for my actions on classifying information about the Fire Orbs phenomena and death of a big group of people. I asked the correspondent to publish my apologies to relatives of the deceased for perversion and concealment of the truth, and, because no room was found for these in four newspaper issues, I apologize in the present article to relatives of the deceased, particularly the families of Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotarev, for distortion of the truth. At the time I tried to do my best, but the situation in the country, as lawyers would define it, was one of an “overwhelming force”, and only on our days an opportunity has appeared to overcome this force. And, again, getting back to the Fire Orbs. They did and do exist. We only want to keep information of their sightings open, and try to understand and study their nature. The majority of onlookers note their peaceful behaviour, but, as you see, fatalities also occur. Something or someone had wanted to either frighten, or punish the people, or demonstrate their strength – and they did it, killing three people. I know the circumstances of the event in detail and can definitely assert that only those who piloted those orbs know all. But had there been “human beings” inside, and are they always present there, no one knows yet.

McCloskey, Keith. Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery (pp. 145-146). Keith McCloskey. Kindle Edition.




Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 04, 2018, 07:57:35 AM
Books are bias and Ivanov was a raging idiot.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 04, 2018, 08:38:02 AM
I'd have to complain about the editing here. You've yanked a series of posts out of one thread and put them in this one losing the context of the previous thread and creating a strange conversation, with a strange proposition here in this one. Not good. Copying these posts from the other thread is ok, but cutting them out is not.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 04, 2018, 08:46:35 AM
The "biased book" is reporting an interview Ivanov gave translated from Russian into English. His superior was interviewed at the age of 94 and confirmed that the case was covered up.

Barristers are many things but rarely idiots.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 04, 2018, 09:44:07 AM
From now on I will be more aggressive in regards to splitting off-topic posts. 

Enjoy
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 04, 2018, 09:51:26 AM
THIS POST HAS BEEN REMOVED

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^^^^^^^^^^^^   RED LINE  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


DO NOT ATTACK THE STAFF FOR SIMPLY DOING THEIR JOB..... 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 04, 2018, 10:46:15 PM
#1

This entire case was squirreled away and secret for many years. 

#2

When were the case files released exactly, and when was the interview given? 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 05, 2018, 02:16:33 AM
Just for the record this thread is listed as "Started by Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 10:11:53 AM "

This is not true, this thread was started by Loose Cannon.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 05, 2018, 04:35:05 AM
There is nothing personal about a split topic.  This is simply split from another thread.....   If you want a dif title,  edit the OP. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 05, 2018, 06:19:41 AM
Why don't you edit it as it's your thread?
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 05, 2018, 06:44:27 AM
Why don't you edit it as it's your thread?

Do what?

Its your topic of discussion.... your posts.  I didn't post under your name. If I did, you would see my edit details at the bottom.  Its called splitting a topic.  This isn't rocket science, nor is it worthwhile complaining about. 

Your getting off-topic...  again. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on November 05, 2018, 03:13:09 PM
So Ivanov believed in ORBS.  But he doesnt actually say BALL LIGHTNING.  Also, it seems that then as now there is no certainty that those things seen in the sky were Ball lightning.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 05, 2018, 03:45:51 PM
When I hear the name  'Ivanov', I think of THE person that is responsible for the worst investigation known to mankind.   Why am I not surprised his failure as an investigator and inability to conduct a proper and thorough investigation lead to him making excuses later in life?   It ranks up there with 'the dog ate my homework'. 

Its a canard.... a farce, made by a pathetic and otherwise incompetent pompus azz that couldn't solve his way out of a wet paper bag.

Its either that, or he was part of a cover-up in which I would have to select a different set of colorful characterizations for.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 05, 2018, 10:58:12 PM
"So Ivanov believed in ORBS.  But he doesnt actually say BALL LIGHTNING.  Also, it seems that then as now there is no certainty that those things seen in the sky were Ball lightning."
Correct, ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena is a good explanation for the orbs. It's clear in his interview that he considered them to be "piloted" hence he's thinking of human or non human involvement. However i prefer a natural explanation which is provided by historical reports, particularly wrt rollers.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 05, 2018, 10:59:59 PM
Okishev was Ivanov's superior :-

Proshkin: - How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
Okishev: - Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Proshkin: - Was he a good investigator?
Okishev: - I should say, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 06, 2018, 02:42:32 AM
.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 06, 2018, 02:44:14 AM
When I hear the name  'Ivanov', I think of THE person that is responsible for the worst investigation known to mankind.   Why am I not surprised his failure as an investigator and inability to conduct a proper and thorough investigation lead to him making excuses later in life?   It ranks up there with 'the dog ate my homework'. 
You're just not getting it, yes the official report details the worse investigation ever but that's not the real investigation is it? The official report is just lots of pointless stuff to try and placate the families with all the important details, photos etc removed.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 06, 2018, 05:58:05 AM
Quote
ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena

Last I looked, the best scientist in the world still do not know what exactly ball lightning is and ghere are hundreds of explanations.  Are you simply plucking out tue one that will best fit your hypothesis?


Quote
the official report details the worse investigation ever but that's not the real investigation is it? The official report is just lots of pointless stuff to try and placate the families with all the important details, photos etc removed
.

You know as well as anyone else, there is absolutely ZERO proof to backup any such claim.  I get the impression you would only have to rewrite the investigation if you need it to fit a particular narrative. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 06, 2018, 08:28:02 AM
Quote
Last I looked, the best scientist in the world still do not know what exactly ball lightning is and ghere are hundreds of explanations. 
Are you simply plucking out tue one that will best fit your hypothesis?
Just because a proper understanding of these phenomena belongs to the science of the future doesn't make them less real. We still don't properly understand conventional lightning but we all know it's real and can kill. The difference is in the frequency of these events. No one doubts lightning exists because they've experienced it. Still there are thousands of BL reports (going back in time). From memory 5000 or so.


Quote
You know as well as anyone else, there is absolutely ZERO proof to backup any such claim.  I get the impression you would only have to rewrite the investigation if you need it to fit a particular narrative.
Well it wouldn't be a very good coverup if there was proof of the coverup would it? Jeez. The only "proof" we have is the interviews with Ivanov and his boss and that the official report has been restitched.

You're just looking down the wrong end of the telescope. Whatever evidence there is for the cause of the DPI has been removed from the report. All we have is Ivanov's interview and he repeats the term "fire orbs". Where do you think he gets this from? A comic he read?
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on November 06, 2018, 01:12:54 PM
I think that due to the unusual nature of this Dyatlov Mystery, investigators can be excused if they change their mind or even make mistakes. It doesnt mean that they are incompetent. Same with us modern day investigators, we have the advanced technology but we dont have the benefit of the evidence available at the time of the event or events. So be it with the ORBS. Still no explanation from scientists either.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 06, 2018, 01:37:03 PM
Still no explanation from scientists either.

Not so, the problem is that there are multiple theories for BL but as yet no experimental proof.

This is a recent theory
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
Experiments are required to verify our theory. First, forming a microwave bubble in laboratory will need hundreds of gigawatt microwave, which is one order of magnitude higher than the manmade sources.

Just in case people aren't familiar with "order of magnitude" it means ten times as much. N.B. and that's for just creating a small one.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on November 07, 2018, 11:13:09 AM
Yes there are lots of THEORIES but still no ANSWER.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 02:34:00 PM
Yes there are lots of THEORIES but still no ANSWER.

Yes this guy describes it as the shame of physics - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ball-Lightning-Physics-electricity-required/dp/1511669640
I haven't read his book but i don't see how a theory of pure light can explain the mechanical energy of rollers...
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 05:41:15 PM
First you claim to categorically know exactly what ball lightning is.....

Quote
Correct, ball lightning or more correctly electro magnetic phenomena is a good explanation for the orbs.

Then you admit nobody knows what BL is......

Quote
We still don't properly understand conventional lightning but we all know it's real and can kill.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 05:48:33 PM
Quote
Just because a proper understanding of these phenomena belongs to the science of the future doesn't make them less real

I haven't seen anyone here deny the existence of BL.    dunno1




Quote
It's clear in his interview that he considered them to be "piloted"

Piloted orbs........   Your boy was dancing around his theory by not coming out and stating what he really wanted to say.  Perhaps afraid of looking like a baffoon. 


(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/grey-alien-creature-glowing-orb-21483050.jpg)
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 05:54:00 PM
Quote
You're just looking down the wrong end of the telescope
.

Am I?   Im not the one that explains EVERYTHING as caused by a fantastical entity.  I'm convinced that if one of the DP group farted in that tent that night, your explanation would be.......piloted fireball.  Lets talk about tunnel-vision.     nose1
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 06:25:54 PM
Quote
Whatever evidence there is for the cause of the DPI has been removed from the report.

More wild speculation you somehow portray as fact.    bang1


Quote
All we have is Ivanov's interview and he repeats the term "fire orbs". Where do you think he gets this from? A comic he read?

Actually....   he gets it from here, which after the case files were release was NO LONGER SECTRET INFORMATION.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-260?rbid=17743

Quote
Sheet 260

Prodanov, Vishnevskiy, 31.03.59, at 9.30 local time.
31.3 04oo Meshcheryakov who was on watch noticed in the southeast direction a large fire ring, which for 20 minutes moved towards us, hiding behind height 880.
Before hiding behind the horizon from the center of the ring appeared a star, which gradually increased to the size of the moon, began to fall down separating from the ring.
This unusual phenomenon was observed by all the personnel raised in alarm.
We ask you to explain this phenomenon and if it is safe, since under the circumstances it left us with anxiety.

Avenburg Potapov Sogrin


Which is likely why they felt compelled to say this in a radio transmission. 

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-136-198?rbid=17743

Quote
The reason could be some kind of extreme natural phenomenon or the flight of a meteorological rocket that was seen on 1/II in Ivdel and on 17/II by Karelin's group

 

Another witness.....

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-227?rbid=17743

Quote
PIGUZOVA REPORT
Dyatlov Pass: Document in RussianRussian
Sheet 227

17 III To Tempalov from K. Piguzov
16. III.59
To the Chief of the Ivdel Police Station 17. II. 59, 6 h. 50 m. local time in the sky appeared not unnatural phenomenon. Moving star with a tail. The tail looked like dense cirrus clouds. Then the star was freed from the tail, became brighter than the stars and flew away. It gradually began to swell, forming a large ball, enveloped in a haze. Then inside this ball the star caught fire, from which first a crescent was formed, then a small ball formed, not so bright. The big ball gradually began to fade, became like a blurry spot. At 7 h. 05 m. it disappeared altogether. A star moved from the south to the northeast
.


And may I remind everyone how stupid these guys that found the tent/bodies were....  more radio transmissions.


Quote
№1712 27/2

To Sulman

Urgent. Right after the descend we dug out and identified the four bodies found as Dyatlov Zolotaryov Krivanischenko Kolmogorova the deceast were thrown out of the tent by a hurricane, some without boots or pants jackets. The direction of the hurricane was northeast-east so all of them are on one line from the discovered tent the furthest approximately two kilometers from the tent. In the mouth of the creek which flows into the Lozva river we found remains of a fire with several charred logs. Nearest Kolmogorova has a broken head examination will continue tomorrow we will set up a camp in the valley of Auspiya river so we won't disturb the traces of the accident can't get in contact with Akselrod I think they have to join us.


Don't patronize me Nigel....  I didn't start looking at this incident yesterday. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 06:40:40 PM
One more thing...

Quote
Okishev was Ivanov's superior :-

Proshkin: - How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
Okishev: - Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Proshkin: - Was he a good investigator?
Okishev: - I should say, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.

What you think he would say???    "no, I like to have dumbasses below me because it makes me look like a stud"?

I have read numerous more recent reports from witnesses specific stating Ivanov was an empty vessel while at the scene.  As in, not interested, a city folk not fond of standing out in the cold wilderness away from his fireplace and vodka.  The lack of documentation both written and photography is a testimony to his incompetence. 
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 08, 2018, 01:15:31 AM
Loose Cannon - 5 posts in row of complete nonsense.
 bang1
 bang1
 bang1
 bang1
 bang1
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on November 08, 2018, 01:27:44 PM
Back to the BALL LIGHTNING, shall we just say that no one really knows exactly what it is and whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.  Because there are seemingly too many theories on BALL LIGHTNING and it would have to be any ones guess as to if any of those theories was the correct one. If the correct theory was found then it may be possible to apply that correct theory to the Dyatlov Mystery.  Guess its up to the Scientists to get cracking  !  ?
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 07:04:41 AM
shall we just say that no one really knows whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

No we can't ignore what Ivanov said. He was very clear that he believed it was fire orbs, possibly piloted, firing heat rays and he also said that the real evidence was covered up by an order from upon high (which you didn't disobey in the Soviet Union in 1959 -  "Beria was gone but his methods remained"). His superior independently confirmed the coverup. Remember who Ivanov was, a well regarded detective and lawyer who after his state career continued to practise as a barrister. Unless you discount all of that as "noise from idiots" then you have to accept that it's either :-
1. Military testing.
2. Ball lightning.
3. Aliens.
4, Angels and/or demons.

Imo 1 + 2 are plausible, 3 + 4 somewhat less so. The problem with 1 is that the authorities don't seem to have reacted with a coverup for about 3 months afterwards until the ravine 4 were found (and semyon's camera was processed?) and the 30 strong investigation team on site found no evidence at all in between or even evidence that anyone else had been there (this is proven by omission from Ivanov's interview).

Unless you think Ivanov was mad or at least highly delusional you have to explain the fire orbs. I choose ball lightning or more correctly naturally occurring electro magnetic phenomena that although rare is well documented and has attracted theories from highly regarded physicists.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 09, 2018, 08:29:42 AM
Getting to qoute myself....   priceless.


Quote
Ball Lightning is an atmospheric phenomenon seemingly with no explanation as to it's creation or existence.  A simple Google search will reveal there is no single explanation as to what its comprised of, how it forms, why it forms, or any other scientific proof as to whats going on inside of 'ball lightning'.  Modern science simply does not know what ball lightning is.

With that being said, here is the basic rundown of how this phenomenon is said to be the cause of death for the Dyatlov group in 1959.

#1.  Semyon Zolotaryov of 37 years old was attached to the group of students and recently graduated youngsters in the final moments before setting off on their trip. Given his military background, he is said to possibly be a KGB agent.  Not just any agent, but one that must embed himself into the group of boys/girls to do the impossible for the Kremlin... Go into the Ural mountains in disguise with a top-secret camera that nobody else must know about, and bring back pictures of Ball Lightning to study and possibly weaponize.  The Russian government has to do this covertly because (insert reason here).

#2. Upon securing himself on the trip Semyon managed to convince the group leader Igor Dyatlov to take a detour. To venture off the planned route submitted to the University for verification of level III status for a top secret Ball Lightning photoshoot.  Igor must be KGB also because he had to be in on it, or at least informed at some point.  Why else would he agree? 

#3.  It was decided the best vantage point to photograph BL would be on the ridge of a mountain, in the middle of the night, and in whiteout conditions with negative temperatures.  So the group followed SZs lead and dug in for a comfortable evening in the worst possible conditions imaginable. 

#4.  At some point during the night as if right on que and in the exact location among thousands of baron square kilometers, The BL showed up!  Not only did it show up, but it parked itself right next to the tent! 

#5.  This event sent the group into a mad frenzy slashing their way out of the tent in what must have been a horrific panic. After extracting themselves out of the tent and destroying it forever, the group calmly walked down the slope to get away from what was so terrifying.

#6. Once they made it to safety a full mile away at the treeline, they settled next to a tall cedar tree and started a fire.  The cedar tree was the ideal location for BL observation and its height offered a perfect view of the tent location in whiteout conditions as the BL hovered by the tent a mile away.

#7.  While watching the BL from the height of this cedar, the group would know two things.  When it was safe to risk their lives and go a mile back uphill to a destroyed tent when the BL has departed, and to watch their comrades progress in dying in an attempt to do so as Igor, Zina, and Rustem did not survive the trip. Its important to note, an attempt of returning to the tent was now possible because the BL had at some point left the vicinity of the tent as clearly seen in whiteout conditions from the top of the cedar.

#8.  To add insult to injury, the BL returns only to swoop down the side of the mountain and explode close to the cedar which tossed Yuri and Yuri out of it giving them burns and aortas three times the normal size for their age.  The BL has been selective in its pinpoint destruction as no signs of an explosion or burning (except Yuris leg) were recorded by anyone during the investigation. 

#9.  Leaving the remaining 4 members of the group alive and unharmed, they decide to salvage clothing and go further into the woods to build an improvised shelter (den) by digging several cubic yards of hard pack snow by bare hand into the side of a ravine snow bank.

#10.  Some time later, the remaining 4 sitting comfortably in their den, butts in all four corners sitting on clothing articles that would later be found above and behind where the den and bodies were found, were viciously attacked once again by the BL.  This time it selectively targeted them in the ravine and exploded causing their den to collapse crushing them. One injury in particular (smashed in skull) was made by snow falling... Not by being slammed against the boulder filled ravine/creek floor.   Once again BL leaving no other physical evidence as to its presence. 

Special notes:  Even though nobody knows exactly what BL is or what its comprised of, it is said to spicifically target your hands, and face in a fashion in which may appear to be hand/hand combat wounds. It can even make it look as if your side was whacked with a 'baton' and your ankles were tied up. All the bleeding of the noses and mouths are an obvious sign of ship rats feeding on frozen tissue.   Blunt force trauma is what BL does

Piloted.....
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 09:52:45 AM
Ball Lightning is an atmospheric phenomenon seemingly with no explanation as to it's creation or existence. Not so, the problem isn't a lack of explanations but no proofs.


A simple Google search will reveal there is no single explanation as to what its comprised of, how it forms, why it forms, or any other scientific proof as to whats going on inside of 'ball lightning'.  Modern science simply does not know what ball lightning is. But a lot of theories are based on microwaves producing plasmas, possibly spinning at relativistic speeds.

With that being said, here is the basic rundown of how this phenomenon is said to be the cause of death for the Dyatlov group in 1959.

#1.  Semyon Zolotaryov of 37 years old was attached to the group of students and recently graduated youngsters in the final moments before setting off on their trip. Given his military background, he is said to possibly be a KGB agent.  Not just any agent, but one that must embed himself into the group of boys/girls to do the impossible for the Kremlin... Go into the Ural mountains in disguise with a top-secret camera that nobody else must know about, and bring back pictures of Ball Lightning to study and possibly weaponize.  The Russian government has to do this covertly because (insert reason herethere's a Cold War going on).

#2. Upon securing himself on the trip Semyon managed to convince the group leader Igor Dyatlov to take a detour. To venture off the planned route submitted to the University for verification of level III status for a top secret Ball Lightning photoshoot.  Igor must be KGB also because he had to be in on it, or at least informed at some point.  Why else would he agreeIt doesn't follow that he had to be KGB, he was keen as mustard to qualify as a master alpinist, he just has to be given a hint that SZ has some authority. Anyway they wouldn't detour without discussing it with the rest imo.? 

#3.  It was decided the best vantage point to photograph BL would be on the ridge of a mountain, in the middle of the night, and in whiteout conditions with negative temperatures. the whiteout would be diminished at the top of the hill, worse lower down So the group followed SZs lead and dug in for a comfortable evening in the worst possible conditions imaginable.  It's only what they were going to do later on Mt Ortorten

#4.  At some point during the night as if right on que and in the exact location among thousands of baron square kilometers, Maybe they had seen some lights on approaching the pass in previous evenings Igor's last diary entry can be interpreted as reconsidering this plan.The BL showed up!  Not only did it show up, but it parked itself right next to the tent! No my favourite theory is rollers (fair to say they got more than they bargained for)

#5.  This event sent the group into a mad frenzy slashing their way out of the tent in what must have been a horrific panic. After extracting themselves out of the tent and destroying it forever, the group calmly walked down the slope to get away from what was so terrifying. if a roller broke the ski pole they would have felt the same force as a strong punch?... I'd get out pretty damn quick. The mysterious photos make sense as trying to catch rollers moving quickly down the mountain

#6. Once they made it to safety a full mile away at the treeline, they settled next to a tall cedar tree and started a fire.  The cedar tree was the ideal location for BL observation and its height offered a perfect view of the tent location in whiteout conditions as the BL hovered by the tent a mile away. The cedar branches offered the best firewood. Yuri D was probably in a bad way by then. You don't know what the snow conditions were at that point.

#7.  While watching the BL from the height of this cedar, the group would know two things.  When it was safe to risk their lives and go a mile back uphill to a destroyed tent when the BL has departed, and to watch their comrades progress in dying in an attempt to do so as Igor, Zina, and Rustem did not survive the trip. Its important to note, an attempt of returning to the tent was now possible because the BL had at some point left the vicinity of the tent as clearly seen in whiteout conditions from the top of the cedar. just speculation

#8.  To add insult to injury, the BL returns only to swoop down the side of the mountain and explode close to the cedar which tossed Yuri and Yuri out of it giving them burns and aortas three times the normal size for their age. the aortas probably due to NO2 poisoning which seems to have affected YuriD the worst The BL has been selective in its pinpoint destruction as no signs of an explosion or burning (except Yuris leg) were recorded by anyone during the investigation.  Not so, Ivanov talked of branches showing burn marks, presumably leading him to talk about "directed heat rays"

#9.  Leaving the remaining 4 members of the group alive and unharmed, they decide to salvage clothing and go further into the woods to build an improvised shelter (den) by digging several cubic yards of hard pack snow by bare hand into the side of a ravine snow bank. My timeline is different, first the 2 Yuris then the ravine 4 then the others.

#10.  Some time later, the remaining 4 sitting comfortably in their den, butts in all four corners sitting on clothing articles that would later be found above and behind where the den and bodies were found, were viciously attacked once again by the BL.  This time it selectively targeted them in the ravine there could have been a lot of them.and exploded causing their den to collapse crushing them. One injury in particular (smashed in skull) was made by snow falling... Not by being slammed against the boulder filled ravine/creek floor.   Once again BL leaving no other physical evidence as to its presence. I think i'd favour mechanical force (like impact from an automobile over an explosion but both possible. If it left any other presence it could have been found by a summer search that sadly didn't take place.

Special notes:  Even though nobody knows exactly what BL is or what its comprised of, it is said to spicifically target your hands, and face in a fashion in which may appear to be hand/hand combat wounds. It can even make it look as if your side was whacked with a 'baton' and your ankles were tied up. All the bleeding of the noses and mouths are an obvious sign of ship rats feeding on frozen tissue.   Blunt force trauma is what BL does[/quote]baton bruise and ankles can easily be explained by hauling the sled and bad ski boots in tough conditions, most of these "combat injuries" were described as "abrasions" by the pathologist. In my theory the remaining to survive dig out the ravine 4 with their bare hands and quickly else they would suffocate, no time to protect your hands. Nitric acid on the face might explain Zina's face


Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on November 09, 2018, 11:09:44 AM
shall we just say that no one really knows whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

No we can't ignore what Ivanov said. He was very clear that he believed it was fire orbs, possibly piloted, firing heat rays and he also said that the real evidence was covered up by an order from upon high (which you didn't disobey in the Soviet Union in 1959 -  "Beria was gone but his methods remained"). His superior independently confirmed the coverup. Remember who Ivanov was, a well regarded detective and lawyer who after his state career continued to practise as a barrister. Unless you discount all of that as "noise from idiots" then you have to accept that it's either :-
1. Military testing.
2. Ball lightning.
3. Aliens.
4, Angels and/or demons.

Imo 1 + 2 are plausible, 3 + 4 somewhat less so. The problem with 1 is that the authorities don't seem to have reacted with a coverup for about 3 months afterwards until the ravine 4 were found (and semyon's camera was processed?) and the 30 strong investigation team on site found no evidence at all in between or even evidence that anyone else had been there (this is proven by omission from Ivanov's interview).

Unless you think Ivanov was mad or at least highly delusional you have to explain the fire orbs. I choose ball lightning or more correctly naturally occurring electro magnetic phenomena that although rare is well documented and has attracted theories from highly regarded physicists.


Thats true, we can not ignore what Ivanov said, but we still havnt got enough to go on to prove that the ball lightning or orbs had anything to do with the demise of the Dyatlov Group. It might be a coincidence that the phenomena happened at the same time as the tragedy  !  ?  However, Ivanov does need to be taken seriously, even if some think he wasnt serious.  So, ORB's = UFO's.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 10, 2018, 04:02:18 AM
Thats true, we can not ignore what Ivanov said, but we still havnt got enough to go on to prove that the ball lightning or orbs had anything to do with the demise of the Dyatlov Group.
We only have Ivanov's interview and his conviction that they were involved. If proof exists it's hidden in an archive somewhere.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on February 16, 2019, 01:37:34 PM
shall we just say that no one really knows whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

No we can't ignore what Ivanov said. He was very clear that he believed it was fire orbs, possibly piloted, firing heat rays and he also said that the real evidence was covered up by an order from upon high (which you didn't disobey in the Soviet Union in 1959 -  "Beria was gone but his methods remained"). His superior independently confirmed the coverup. Remember who Ivanov was, a well regarded detective and lawyer who after his state career continued to practise as a barrister. Unless you discount all of that as "noise from idiots" then you have to accept that it's either :-
1. Military testing.
2. Ball lightning.
3. Aliens.
4, Angels and/or demons.

Imo 1 + 2 are plausible, 3 + 4 somewhat less so. The problem with 1 is that the authorities don't seem to have reacted with a coverup for about 3 months afterwards until the ravine 4 were found (and semyon's camera was processed?) and the 30 strong investigation team on site found no evidence at all in between or even evidence that anyone else had been there (this is proven by omission from Ivanov's interview).

Unless you think Ivanov was mad or at least highly delusional you have to explain the fire orbs. I choose ball lightning or more correctly naturally occurring electro magnetic phenomena that although rare is well documented and has attracted theories from highly regarded physicists.

This is one of your more interesting Posts. You have touched upon something regarding PLAUSIBILITY that needs to be a reminder to everyone occasionally. There could not have been a cover up early on because as you suggest the Authorities did not react or act until the finding of the bodies at the Ravine.  The bodies with the most MYSTERIOUS INJURIES. After those bodies were found then it is possible there may have been a cover up. And if so what were the Authorities covering up  !  ?  I think it was something more than just lights in the sky, and also maybe IVANOV was on the right track  !  ?
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 16, 2019, 02:48:46 PM
shall we just say that no one really knows whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

No we can't ignore what Ivanov said. He was very clear that he believed it was fire orbs, possibly piloted, firing heat rays and he also said that the real evidence was covered up by an order from upon high (which you didn't disobey in the Soviet Union in 1959 -  "Beria was gone but his methods remained"). His superior independently confirmed the coverup. Remember who Ivanov was, a well regarded detective and lawyer who after his state career continued to practise as a barrister. Unless you discount all of that as "noise from idiots" then you have to accept that it's either :-
1. Military testing.
2. Ball lightning.
3. Aliens.
4, Angels and/or demons.

Imo 1 + 2 are plausible, 3 + 4 somewhat less so. The problem with 1 is that the authorities don't seem to have reacted with a coverup for about 3 months afterwards until the ravine 4 were found (and semyon's camera was processed?) and the 30 strong investigation team on site found no evidence at all in between or even evidence that anyone else had been there (this is proven by omission from Ivanov's interview).

Unless you think Ivanov was mad or at least highly delusional you have to explain the fire orbs. I choose ball lightning or more correctly naturally occurring electro magnetic phenomena that although rare is well documented and has attracted theories from highly regarded physicists.
This is one of your more interesting Posts. You have touched upon something regarding PLAUSIBILITY that needs to be a reminder to everyone occasionally. There could not have been a cover up early on because as you suggest the Authorities did not react or act until the finding of the bodies at the Ravine.  The bodies with the most MYSTERIOUS INJURIES. After those bodies were found then it is possible there may have been a cover up. And if so what were the Authorities covering up  !  ?  I think it was something more than just lights in the sky, and also maybe IVANOV was on the right track  !  ?

Ah but i've subsequently read that Ivanov was summoned to Moscow in mid March. So if true state involvement is more plausible.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: sarapuk on February 17, 2019, 04:49:59 PM
shall we just say that no one really knows whether or not it played any part in the demise of the Dyatlov Group.

No we can't ignore what Ivanov said. He was very clear that he believed it was fire orbs, possibly piloted, firing heat rays and he also said that the real evidence was covered up by an order from upon high (which you didn't disobey in the Soviet Union in 1959 -  "Beria was gone but his methods remained"). His superior independently confirmed the coverup. Remember who Ivanov was, a well regarded detective and lawyer who after his state career continued to practise as a barrister. Unless you discount all of that as "noise from idiots" then you have to accept that it's either :-
1. Military testing.
2. Ball lightning.
3. Aliens.
4, Angels and/or demons.

Imo 1 + 2 are plausible, 3 + 4 somewhat less so. The problem with 1 is that the authorities don't seem to have reacted with a coverup for about 3 months afterwards until the ravine 4 were found (and semyon's camera was processed?) and the 30 strong investigation team on site found no evidence at all in between or even evidence that anyone else had been there (this is proven by omission from Ivanov's interview).

Unless you think Ivanov was mad or at least highly delusional you have to explain the fire orbs. I choose ball lightning or more correctly naturally occurring electro magnetic phenomena that although rare is well documented and has attracted theories from highly regarded physicists.
This is one of your more interesting Posts. You have touched upon something regarding PLAUSIBILITY that needs to be a reminder to everyone occasionally. There could not have been a cover up early on because as you suggest the Authorities did not react or act until the finding of the bodies at the Ravine.  The bodies with the most MYSTERIOUS INJURIES. After those bodies were found then it is possible there may have been a cover up. And if so what were the Authorities covering up  !  ?  I think it was something more than just lights in the sky, and also maybe IVANOV was on the right track  !  ?

Ah but i've subsequently read that Ivanov was summoned to Moscow in mid March. So if true state involvement is more plausible.

Well Ivanov was an important person regarding the search and rescue and investigation, so maybe the Authorities just wanted to be kept abreast of any developments.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: kikoorion on July 07, 2019, 09:25:40 AM

good to all, I would like to ask if someone could pass me or tell me where to locate the interview they did to Lev Ivanov, from November 22 to 24, 1990 about his theory called "the enigma of the fireballs", thank you very much and magnifies web for a disturbing amateur in this case, a greeting
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: Nigel Evans on July 07, 2019, 10:09:38 AM

good to all, I would like to ask if someone could pass me or tell me where to locate the interview they did to Lev Ivanov, from November 22 to 24, 1990 about his theory called "the enigma of the fireballs", thank you very much and magnifies web for a disturbing amateur in this case, a greeting
http://www.keithmccloskey.com/journey-to-dyatlov-pass/
The interview is translated in full into English in Chapter 10 as is Okishev's interview in Chapter 11.
It's a good book.
Title: Re: Ivanov Later Believed In Ball Lightning
Post by: kikoorion on July 08, 2019, 10:17:05 AM
thank you very much Nigel Evans, I am very grateful, greetings