Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Lightning strike / Ball lightning => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 03:29:42 AM

Title: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 03:29:42 AM
Regarding radioactivity the full text is bertter :-
But if the indigenous people killed everyone, then why were some of the clothes of the victims contaminated with radioactivity? A possible explanation can be found in the diaries. Lyuda wrote: ‘After breakfast, some of the lads, headed by Yuri Yudin, our well-known geologist, went to look for local minerals. They didn’t find anything except pyrite and quartz veins in the rock.’ Pyrite is a mineral regularly found in the Urals. But it isn’t only pyrite, gold and silver that are found in these mountains. There is also uranium ore, which gives off radioactivity, and which most likely fouled the hikers’ trousers and sweaters with radioactive dust.  In the notebooks of journalist Grygoriev, who took part in the rescue operation, there is the following entry: All the backpacks have bits and pieces of rocks … Vishnevsky told me that they were for striking fire in case their matches got damp. I disagreed because I saw that they were rocks taken from the 2nd Severny camp.

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 206-207). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 06:11:06 AM
 The articles of clothing that were contaminated belonged to individuals that worked with and handled radioactive substances for a living.   Mystery solved.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 07, 2018, 06:17:30 AM
So sorry, but sloppy. See thread here on radioactivity
Quote
When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles . Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.
Uranium is alpha emitter. Uranium not present.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 06:38:06 AM
Uranium is alpha emitter. Uranium not present.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14
Interesting that high energy radiation (cosmic rays) and lightning can produce it.  Hmmm
Title: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 06:41:34 AM
The radiation on the clothing was determined to be beta.

and carbon 14 occurs naturally by exposing nitrogen (most common element in air) to high energy radiation (cosmic rays) and electricity (lightning bolts).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 06:44:05 AM
Of course it is quite possible that the contamination came from some of the members occupations.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 07, 2018, 06:49:03 AM
We have no idea what substances these two individuals were working with, and I would presume it wouldn't be limited to uranium alone. 

If I recall, the levels detected were BARELY above normal environment levels.  No?
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 07:17:10 AM
We have no idea what substances these two individuals were working with, and I would presume it wouldn't be limited to uranium alone. 

If I recall, the levels detected were BARELY above normal environment levels.  No?
The individuals would have probably encountered strontium - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_beta_emitters
The issue with the radiation is the water test that could be interpreted as showing that the initial levels (before being in immersed in flowing meltwater for some time) were very high.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 07, 2018, 08:44:04 AM
Physics asks how much as well as what is.
Quote
Carbon-14 may also be produced by lightning bolts but in the amounts negligible compared to cosmic rays.
Humans have 4,000 Bq beta decay from body potassium, and 3,700 from 14C. The amounts of radiation on clothing was less than 10,000 Bq, less than twice what each person's body created.
Potassium-rich meltwater running over minerals could explain all.
Strontium-90 is product nuclear reactor's or weapons. Why there in Urals?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
Carbon-14 may also be produced by lightning bolts but in the amounts negligible compared to cosmic rays.
Yes but what if some unusual high energy electro magnetic phenomena is occurring at ground level?
 
Potassium-rich meltwater running over minerals could explain all.
Agreed :-
The materials examined contained radioactive traces within normal limits of the natural content for the potassium 40 isotope.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 104). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.

Strontium-90 is product nuclear reactor's or weapons. Why there in Urals?
Because some of the group worked at nuclear sites or had done recently.

Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 07, 2018, 11:16:56 AM
Sorry, no chance. Magical thinking.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on November 07, 2018, 11:21:45 AM
Well it would help if we had some of those mineral samples to test, but unfortunately along with so many other things, they are missing. How can we know if those samples were in any way radioactive  !  ? 
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 12:21:06 PM
Sorry, no chance. Magical thinking.
Someone's written a paper that might be magical. - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278349012_Carbon-14_synthesis_using_microwaves
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 12:47:37 PM
and here's the wand (perhaps :) - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2003/0026375.html
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 07, 2018, 05:39:16 PM
Magical thinking. A thousand trillion magical new atoms of Carbon 14 is the same as background radiation.
Imagine it was the Black knight of the Vaviarga.. Better magic
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 08, 2018, 01:31:22 AM

Google's magic doesn't extend to explaining the Black knight of the Vaviarga, but it told me about carbon14 synthesis... kewl1

Good point wrt sloppy thinking.

Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 08, 2018, 05:40:23 PM
Magical thinking. Your "paper" is in an UN-reviewed scientific latrine of a journal auth no citations, no references to it - and no available text!!  Explain what this nonsense claims, ok?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 08, 2018, 06:20:23 PM
Also patent is sheer lunacy by crock who does not understand the slightest bit of quantum physics. Microwave? Nonsense. No wonder nobody can solve anything in case. The nuts barge in and muss up everything.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 08, 2018, 06:52:28 PM
Nigel, Don't you have a degree in physics?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 02:35:27 AM
Yes. But 40 years ago. I've been a software developer ever since.
So i have more understanding than authority :)
 dance1 dance1 dance1
 whacky1 whacky1 whacky1
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Jacques-Emile on November 09, 2018, 04:26:01 AM
So 14N transmutation to 14C and the opposite take place by specific events. What are those called?
If you become entranced by falsehood, and that makes you believe in your own falsehoods, why is anyone else expected to take you seriously?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 05:05:43 AM
So 14N transmutation to 14C and the opposite take place by specific events. What are those called?
If you become entranced by falsehood, and that makes you believe in your own falsehoods, why is anyone else expected to take you seriously?

I've applied for the above paper which hasn't arrived yet and you may well be correct in your (low) opinion of it.

It's my opinion that it is probable that a full understanding of these phenomena belongs to the science of the future and that the "journey to full understanding" will leave a lot of falsehoods in it's wake. But i like the microwave soliton theory and Wu's relativistic electrons particularly wrt rollers which would seem to explain the strong mechanical energy. Rollers are my favourite guess at the cause of the DPI. If one came close enough to break a ski pole they would exit very rapidly and that's what the mysterious photos are of.

So to answer your question, i don't know (and if i did i might be a candidate for a Nobel prize? :).
But i do know that a small percentage of cosmic rays are high energy photons and it is now understood that lightning bolts produce positrons that annihilate with X rays, so there would seem to be a plausible path there to carbon14 production in some quantity. As to explaining the required scale well maybe that belongs to the science of the future (or not).

As we don't know the isotope(s) involved in the DPI and as you say potassium would offer an explanation anyway then this discussion isn't very important wrt understanding the DPI. But it's an interesting spin off.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on November 09, 2018, 10:45:10 AM
Shall we just say that there were RADIATION levels found at the Dyatlov Pass area that were considered relevant to the investigation, but no more came of it.  And no more came of it because the investigation was abruptly brought to an end.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 10:58:18 AM
Shall we just say that there were RADIATION levels found at the Dyatlov Pass area that were considered relevant to the investigation, but no more came of it.  And no more came of it because the investigation was abruptly brought to an end.
The radiation levels on the clothing can be explained as being of natural origin. Any attempt to look beyond this is of academic interest only.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Star man on February 25, 2019, 04:01:13 PM
So sorry, but sloppy. See thread here on radioactivity
Quote
When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles . Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.
Uranium is alpha emitter. Uranium not present.

Hmm are you sure that no gamma radiation was detected along with the beta?  Because Strontium 90 , by-product of fission reactions is a specific beta emitter only and decays with little to no gamma radiation.  Did they analyses for any isotopes?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on February 25, 2019, 04:07:04 PM
Sounds very much like strontium 90 to me.  Ifmonly we could analyse those tree rings for it.
Title: Re: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on February 25, 2019, 05:16:15 PM
So sorry, but sloppy. See thread here on radioactivity
Quote
When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles . Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.
Uranium is alpha emitter. Uranium not present.

Hmm are you sure that no gamma radiation was detected along with the beta?  Because Strontium 90 , by-product of fission reactions is a specific beta emitter only and decays with little to no gamma radiation.  Did they analyses for any isotopes?

Thats a good point. I guess only the Authorities can answer that type of question though. And they havnt done so far as far as I know.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Monika on February 26, 2019, 12:01:31 AM
The whole issue with radioactive contamination is strange.
- If it was the result of workplace contamination of two members of Dyatlovs, I would expect it to be on other parts of their clothing, also on their hair and body. And not just on their trousers.
- And I doubt that when working with radioactive material (even at a low concentration), they would wear a pair of hiking pants and jacket at the workplace. If they worked with even a weak radioactive material, they had to change into work clothes.
- Also, the contaminations in the air directly at the place of the Dyatlov pass incident I would expect whole body to be contaminated.
- And as has been said, the radiation level was low, but after several months in water flow in ravine it was washed way. This indicates that the original concentration had to be very high. But why just on the trousers???
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 26, 2019, 12:47:04 AM
- And as has been said, the radiation level was low, but after several months in water flow in ravine it was washed way. This indicates that the original concentration had to be very high.
Or it was just always low....
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on February 26, 2019, 03:07:07 PM
I suppose there is only one way that we will ever find out and that is if someone analyses tree ring samples and soil core samples for strontium 90.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on February 26, 2019, 04:15:01 PM
I suppose there is only one way that we will ever find out and that is if someone analyses tree ring samples and soil core samples for strontium 90.

But if this particular theory was even remotely considered by the Authorities then we should have expected them to have done that a long time ago  !  ? 
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on February 26, 2019, 08:55:58 PM
While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html (http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html). They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 27, 2019, 01:44:58 AM
While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html (http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html). They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.
Hi there, would you know if potassium 40 emits hard beta and hence would be detected by this equipment?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on February 27, 2019, 03:53:36 AM
While Carbon 14 is a beta emitter, it emits very low energy (soft) betas. These typically cannot penetrate the metal walls of most Geiger tubes. The lab report in the case files on pages 371-377 mentioned use of what I believe are Soviet STS-6 Geiger tubes. A description of them is available at http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html (http://www.sovtube.com/x-ray-and-geiger-tubes/747-sts-6-1.html). They are listed as sensitive to gamma and hard beta. I don't believe soft beta from Carbon 14 could be counted with them.

I know what you are getting at. I bought a Geiger counter a few years ago, the sort that was still being used at the Chernobyl Site. I was going to get an old Soviet Geiger Counter as well, but this one I have serves multiple purposes. The old Soviet ones were specifically designed for the event of a Nuclear War.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on February 27, 2019, 07:27:54 PM
Hi there, would you know if potassium 40 emits hard beta and hence would be detected by this equipment?

K-40 emits both beta and gamma. 89% of the time, it emits a beta. While the energy of the beta emitted during each decay is variable, it's very likely it will be a hard beta that could be detected by a Geiger tube. The other 11% of the time, K-40 will emit a 1.46 MeV gamma.

K-40 can be detected by the instruments used by the dosimetry lab. The report mentions that the counter used to measure the clothing samples had 4 STS-6 Geiger tubes. These can detect hard beta.

The samples from the hikers' bodies were measured with a "BFA-25 meter". I don't know what kind of detector that is. However, the lab burned to ash several tissue and bone samples from the 4 hikers found in the ravine, and while many of these were radioactive above background, the report concluded that this was due to K-40. They performed the same test on a person who died in a motor vehicle accident in Sverdlovsk, and the results were similar. So the parts of the hikers that they tested were about as radioactive as the average human. This also demonstrates that this "BFA-25" detector was indeed sensitive to K-40.

(Of note: The lab report showed no results from any of the hikers' lungs, so we do not know if they breathed in contaminated dust before their deaths.)

I'm curious why you are asking about K-40?

I recently saw a website identifying the isotope contaminating the hikers as K-40, but the website did not cite a source, and I'm guessing it was an error. Someone could have read the lab report, saw that it mentioned K-40, and jumped to the wrong conclusion. The lab report is clear that they did not determine the isotope(s) contaminating the hikers' clothing.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 28, 2019, 02:44:23 AM

I'm curious why you are asking about K-40?
Because it can explain some of the results as normal.


Here's the report  :-

The four subjects were given numbers: No. 1: Kolevatov No. 2: Zolotariov No. 3: Tibeaux No. 4: Dubinina The results of the radiological investigation, recorded in the criminal case report, were as follows: Clothes examined: Brown sweater taken from body No. 4: 9900 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Lowest part of the long johns: 5000 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Part of the sweater from body No. 1: 5600 decay per minute from 150 square centimetres. Upon rinsing the clothes, it was shown that contamination could be decreased by between thirty and sixty percent. The rinse was conducted in a standard test using cold running water for three hours. Conclusions: The materials examined contained radioactive traces within normal limits of the natural content for the potassium 40 isotope. Examined separately, samples of the clothes contained several higher than normal quantities of radioactive compounds that are beta emitters. It was confirmed, from tests involving rinsing with water, that the radioactive substances found displayed a tendency to be reduced by such a test. Thus their presence proves that they were not caused by a neutron stream or by the incidence of induced radioactivity, but by the contamination of radioactive beta particles. Additional questions the investigator asked Levashov were as follows: Question: Could the clothes be contaminated above the normal level by normal circumstances without having been in the presence of a radioactive-contaminated place? Answer: No Question: Were the samples examined by you contaminated? Answer: As mentioned in the conclusion, there is contamination by a radioactive substance or substances. Beta emitters were found on certain separately-sampled areas from the samples I received. For example, the sample from body no. 4 (brown sweater), at the moment of examination, had a decay rate of 9900 beta particles per minute for 150 square centimetres. After rinsing, it displayed 5200 decays of beta particles per minute from 150 sq cm. Normally, contamination of beta particles from 150 sq cm should not exceed 5000 before rinsing. After rinsing it would be expected to find a normal level equivalent to the natural base level, which is provided by natural cosmic radiation for all people in a particular place. This is the normal rule for those who work with radioactive materials. From body No. 1, the sweater yielded a display of 5600 particles per minute before rinsing, falling to 2700 particles per minute after rinsing. In your data it’s indicated that, before they were sent to us, all of these objects had been in running water for quite some time, which means they had already been rinsed. Question: Can we conclude that the clothes were contaminated by radioactive dust? Answer: Yes. Contaminated by radioactive dust which fell down from the atmosphere, or these clothes were contaminated while working with radioactive substances, or via contact. This particular contamination exceeds the normal level for people who work with radioactive substances. Question: What was the real degree of contamination of some objects considering that they were in running water for about 15 days? Answer: One can guess the contamination of some parts of the clothes was many times more. But we must also consider that the clothes could have been washed with differing degrees of intensity. May 29, 1959

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 103- 106). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

It occurs to me, could the clothing and running water combine to increase the decay level? The clothing acting as net capturing and concentrating the background level? E.g. water flowing perpendicular to the clothing would lower the level but water flowing in the direction of the weave / across folds increase it?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on February 28, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.


 
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on February 28, 2019, 03:05:45 PM
The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on February 28, 2019, 06:56:10 PM
So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

This is a common misconception I've seen about the report.

In the report, beta contamination on surfaces is measured as decays per minute per 150 square centimeters. The 5000 number is NOT the background. It is a maximum occupational contamination limit. In other words, if you worked at a Soviet nuclear facility, and at the end of the day your clothes had 6000 decays per min per 150 cm^2, that would be considered an unacceptable problem.

But that does NOT mean that, say, ending your shift with 4000 on your clothes is in any way normal! It still means your clothing is contaminated. The contamination is just not at a level that would be unacceptable for a nuclear worker. Also, that nuclear worker will not be wearing clothing contaminated at that level home! If there is a potential of contamination, then they're going to change into different clothing for their shift.

But we're talking about hikers in the woods, not workers at a nuclear facility. Numbers substantially >0 but <5000 still mean contamination has occurred, and it's highly unusual. The fact that it doesn't exceed the standards for a nuclear worker doesn't mean it should be considered normal, or that it should be considered background. (Background has already been subtracted, so anything >0 is above background.)

This means that all 9 clothing samples tested, with at least one sample per hiker found in the ravine, were contaminated. It is NOT just Kolevatov's pants, the waistband of his sweater, and Dubinina's sweater that were contaminated.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2019, 02:09:05 AM
So 5000 decays can be explained as background and 9900 as abnormal?

This is a common misconception I've seen about the report.

In the report, beta contamination on surfaces is measured as decays per minute per 150 square centimeters. The 5000 number is NOT the background. It is a maximum occupational contamination limit. In other words, if you worked at a Soviet nuclear facility, and at the end of the day your clothes had 6000 decays per min per 150 cm^2, that would be considered an unacceptable problem.

But that does NOT mean that, say, ending your shift with 4000 on your clothes is in any way normal! It still means your clothing is contaminated. The contamination is just not at a level that would be unacceptable for a nuclear worker. Also, that nuclear worker will not be wearing clothing contaminated at that level home! If there is a potential of contamination, then they're going to change into different clothing for their shift.

But we're talking about hikers in the woods, not workers at a nuclear facility. Numbers substantially >0 but <5000 still mean contamination has occurred, and it's highly unusual. The fact that it doesn't exceed the standards for a nuclear worker doesn't mean it should be considered normal, or that it should be considered background. (Background has already been subtracted, so anything >0 is above background.)

This means that all 9 clothing samples tested, with at least one sample per hiker found in the ravine, were contaminated. It is NOT just Kolevatov's pants, the waistband of his sweater, and Dubinina's sweater that were contaminated.
Thanks for your reply, it's good to have your informed input.
So playing devil's advocate let me argue the case for natural contamination and hence hear your thoughts.

The water test demonstrated that in three hours of rinsing the contamination could be (roughly) halved. So if flowing water can dilute by mechanical action can it not also concentrate? And wrt the ravine is this not a likely place for such concentration, in the silt collected from a much larger surface area of the mountain?
Looking around for some evidence i've found this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#Sea_and_river_silt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#Sea_and_river_silt)
"In one kilogram of soil, the potassium-40 amounts to an average 370 Bq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bq) of radiation, with a typical range of 100–700 Bq; the others each contribute some 25 Bq, with typical ranges of 10–50 Bq (7–50 Bq for the 232Th).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#cite_note-1) Some soils may vary greatly from these norms.".

So i would have to contest your point that the background level has already been subtracted. The background level of the ravine silt is unknown? Indeed i would argue that the results are inconclusive without also measuring the silt underneath the bodies in order to properly determine the background level.

Also wrt to C14 being too soft to register on their equipment, the interview seems to question this :- 


"After rinsing it would be expected to find a normal level equivalent to the natural base level, which is provided by natural cosmic radiation for all people in a particular place. This is the normal rule for those who work with radioactive materials. From body No. 1, the sweater yielded a display of 5600 particles per minute before rinsing, falling to 2700 particles per minute after rinsing. In your data it’s indicated that, before they were sent to us, all of these objects had been in running water for quite some time, which means they had already been rinsed. Question: Can we conclude that the clothes were contaminated by radioactive dust? Answer: Yes. Contaminated by radioactive dust which fell down from the atmosphere,".
  It seems that the responder to these questions is including C14?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on March 01, 2019, 07:47:11 AM
Nigel,

(Response 1/2)

Thanks for the compliment! I'm really enjoying this discussion and your responses.

First off, I think we're referring to different things when I mention background and background subtraction.

I'm talking about the naturally occurring radiation in the lab where the measurement was taken. The counts / min / 150 cm^2 number already has the naturally occurring background in the lab subtracted. Clean cloth would have a number equal to zero (with some small statistical variation.) Any radioactive silt (if it exists) from the ravine on the clothing is not considered background, it would not be subtracted, and it would elevate the number. But I'll talk about that in a future response.

All I'm saying is that any number substantially >0 is not normal, regardless of where it came from. I want to dispute the idea that 5000 is somehow background. It isn't. It is the upper end of an occupational exposure limit.

Regarding C-14, the interview questions do not directly answer it. The person is suggesting that radioactive dust in the air contaminated the clothing. Radioactive dust is typically what contaminates people in industrial environments.

But the report describes the hardware used to measure the contamination on the clothing: an array of four STS-6 Soviet Geiger tubes. I have found specifications for these. They are thin wall metal tubes. They are sensitive to hard (energetic) beta. An energetic electron generally can pass through the thin metal wall of the tube, ionize the gas inside, and produce a measured count.

C-14 produces soft betas. These are not going to penetrate the wall of the Geiger tube, so they won't register a count.

See http://www.upstate.edu/radiationsafety/procedures/c-14.php which says "A tiny drop of contamination from C-14 can be easily detected with a wipe test from a Liquid Scintillation Counter. Most Geiger Counters will not efficiently detect the presence of C-14.”

For further evidence, see http://lampes-et-tubes.info/rd/rd011.php?l=e which indicates that an STS-6 tube can detect beta radiation with Emax > 0.5 MeV. The site I linked above says the Emax of C-14 is 0.156 MeV. That's less than a third of the detection threshold stated in the tube specs.

So I'm fairly confident that C-14 is not the cause of the contamination on the clothing. The lab equipment they stated they used simply could not detect C-14.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 01, 2019, 08:47:00 AM
So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on March 01, 2019, 09:07:09 AM
Nigel,

(Response 2/2)

This reply is more speculative. I'm not a geologist, hydrologist, or have any particular knowledge about fluid dynamics.

Your suggestion that the water could concentrate radioactive contamination is interesting, but it doesn't feel right to me. Let me propose a thought experiment.

Let's assume 1 kg of soil naturally contains 370 Bq of K-40. 1 Bq = 1 disintegration per second.

First, K-40 is also a gamma emitter. 11% of the time, it decays with a fairly high energy gamma. So we would have to assume the lab failed to notice the gammas. For the sake of argument, let's make that assumption.

A 75 cm^2 sample of Dubinina's brown sweater measured 9900 disintegrations / minute / 150 cm^2. So that sample alone contains 9900 * (75/150) / 60 = 83 Bq of radiation.

At this point, one might conclude that the sample was only contaminated with the radiation that 223 g of soil naturally contains. So if 223 g of soil wash over that portion of her sweater and deposit all their K-40, the mystery is solved.

But that isn't really realistic. The 223g of soil contains a trace amount of K-40 and, well, almost 223g of soil. I see no reason for the K-40 to stick to the sweater but the rest of the soil to pass on by.

If we instead assume that K-40 and soil both deposit on the sweater in equal proportions, then that 75 cm^2 sample would need 223g of soil on the sweater as well. To put that in perspective, that much dirt has to be on an 8x8 cm piece of fabric. Or for us Americans, a half pound of dirt on a 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" piece of fabric. That's substantially more dirt than sweater!

Also, you said "Indeed i would argue that the results are inconclusive without also measuring the silt underneath the bodies in order to properly determine the background level."

There is something else interesting in the report. Table 2 item 1 lists "Soil from No 1" (Kolevatov). I am guessing that some soil came along with the clothing sample and may have been brushed off and placed in the detector. The radiation measurement was 96 counts per minute. Background for the instrument, measured at two different times, was 90 and 100. So this soil is not significantly higher than background radiation.

I caution against reading too much into that. We don't know where the sample came from, or how much soil was there. (Does the original Russian document have any clues?) Also, beta radiation is easily absorbed, so a clump of dirt can "self-shield", lowering the observed beta reading somewhat. But still, this soil clearly was not screaming hot.

My gut feeling is that I can't see any natural explanation for the radioactive contamination on the clothing. The examiner concludes the same in the interview. "Should there be (can it be) increased contamination of clothing with radioactive substances under normal conditions, i.e. without being in a radioactively contaminated environment or place? Answer: Definitely not."

I don't believe water will concentrate natural radiation. If anything, I think it will dilute contamination.

This doesn't mean the clothing must have been contaminated pre-mortem. I can see post-mortem options with contamination transported by water. But in that case, my gut feeling is that there would need to be a whole lot of artificial contamination dumped on that area, as only a small percent would deposit on the clothing and stay there, e.g. not get washed off.

Still, I think it would be easier to assume the clothing was contaminated at, before, or shortly after death than during the three months afterwards.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2019, 09:54:00 AM
Good that we're both enjoying the discussion! I wrote up the following without seeing your post @  05:07:09 PM. I'd omitted the 11% gamma from the calc but thought i'd just post it as we're clearly thinking along the same lines. The soil test is interesting.

So check out my math here. 1 Bequerel = 1 decay per sec.

Lets assume that the ravine silt is at the high end of normal given by the wikipedia entry below= 700 Bq per kg of K40 ignoring anything else = 42000 decays per min.
Now for the tough part. 150cm of clothing doesn't contain 1kg of silt!  kewl1
But could 150cm of fabric contain 100g of silt? I think it's possible, the fabric tested came from inner garments so you could argue that the outer garments acted as a trap retaining silt etc within and loading the tested items. You could argue otherwise of course but i'm arguing for natural contamination  grin1
So i make that 4200 decays per min.

Now the figure of 700Bq could be much higher of course. If you double it then you have explained the tests as local background radiation. It all depends on the ravine silt which is an unknown.
So the published tests are inconclusive? Much better would have been to test the first five and the tent area?

Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 01, 2019, 12:34:21 PM
The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.

And of course thats a good question you put regarding the Geiger Counters ; WHY DID THEY HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ?  Its possible that it was standard practice in those days for someone like Ivanov to be carrying a Geiger Counter during the search. Any one in Authority during those heady days of the so called COLD WAR would likely to have been issued with such equipment. It was in 1957 that the USSR launched the Worlds first ICBM. Things were hotting up. But there may be another reason why Ivanov was carrying a Geiger Counter  !  ?  Anyway he was, but the real question for me is ; WHEN EXACTLY DID THE SCIENTISTS ARRIVE WITH THEIR GEIGER COUNTERS  !  ? 
And of course thats a good question regarding hiking clothes ; Answer = THEY DIDNT WEAR THEIR HIKING CLOTHES AT WORK. Would we, I think not.
And of course thats a good question regarding contamination ; If the Authorities expect the general public to believe that they got contaminated at work and then carried the contamination home and on the expedition, then I would substitute the word unlikely for RIDICULOUS.
And yes if Ivanov was correct about the Geiger Counter going crazy we are talking serious RADIATION LEVELS, well above normal.

But what type of RADIATION  !  ? 
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 01, 2019, 03:35:56 PM
The following is taken from the Report ;

[[ Samples of solid biosubstrates and clothes combined in groups under Nos 1, 2, 3,4 were submitted to the radio-isotope laboratory of the Sverdlovsk sanitaryepidemic station and were analyzed for presence of radioactive materials.

The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy.

Recalculation was performed on the B-2 installation in a lead house with a cassette counter STS-6 in the number of 4 pieces.

Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out at the B-2 facility (№ 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter.

Is it possible to consider that this clothing is contaminated with radioactive dust?
Answer: Yes, clothes are contaminated or radioactive dust dropped from the atmosphere, or this garment has been exposed to contamination when working with radioactive substances, or on contact. This pollution exceeds, as I have already indicated, the norm for persons working with radioactive substances. ]]


And My comments ;

Apparently there is talk of several scientists who were brought in to assist the search parties and they carried GEIGER COUNTERS. Lev Ivanov claims to have used a Geiger Counter and that it went crazy around the campsite. But we have no information as to the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED, as far as I know. What is very interesting however is that higher than normal levels of BETA PARTICLES were detected during the Laboratory Tests. And by the time of those tests over 2 months had passed since the Incident and we know that washing of the bodies at the Ravine could wash away plenty of PARTICLES. But why no ALPHA or GAMMA PARTICLES  !  ?  If Ivanov was correct and his Geiger Counter went crazy are we to believe it was just because of BETA PARTICLES  But then again what type of Geiger Counter was he using. If it was a Military one then this is extremely important for the Investigation, because a Soviet Military Geiger Counter would have been designed to detect the strong signals of Radiation from a Nuclear Explosion.  The Authorities must know the answer to that.

Just a quicky regarding Geiger Counter construction, which applies to the present as well as the past. The main part is the TUBE. Different Tubes can be used for different situations.  Important because you wouldnt want a Tube to become fully saturated or even a bit saturated as this would give false readings. Thats why we need to know THE EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER used in the 1959 search.

Some very interesting points and info.

But even if we know what type of Geiger counter they had (which I agree is a good question) why did they have them in the first place?  Also, why would Yuris K and Kolevatov take their hiking clothes to work with them?  Did they get this contaminatin from their jobs, and then somehow carry it home and on to this expedition?  Unlikely.

Also the anecdotal evidence that Ivanov's Geiger counter went crazy at the camp site?  If this is true it did not come from their jobs.

And of course thats a good question you put regarding the Geiger Counters ; WHY DID THEY HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ?  Its possible that it was standard practice in those days for someone like Ivanov to be carrying a Geiger Counter during the search. Any one in Authority during those heady days of the so called COLD WAR would likely to have been issued with such equipment. It was in 1957 that the USSR launched the Worlds first ICBM. Things were hotting up. But there may be another reason why Ivanov was carrying a Geiger Counter  !  ?  Anyway he was, but the real question for me is ; WHEN EXACTLY DID THE SCIENTISTS ARRIVE WITH THEIR GEIGER COUNTERS  !  ? 
And of course thats a good question regarding hiking clothes ; Answer = THEY DIDNT WEAR THEIR HIKING CLOTHES AT WORK. Would we, I think not.
And of course thats a good question regarding contamination ; If the Authorities expect the general public to believe that they got contaminated at work and then carried the contamination home and on the expedition, then I would substitute the word unlikely for RIDICULOUS.
And yes if Ivanov was correct about the Geiger Counter going crazy we are talking serious RADIATION LEVELS, well above normal.

But what type of RADIATION  !  ?

Yes.  All good questions.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on March 01, 2019, 04:25:27 PM
So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.

Thanks!

Sr-90 is definitely possible. It is what I consider one of the more likely possibilities.

It is considered a pure beta emitter, so we don't have to assume the dosimetrist conducting the lab testing missed something.

It definitely is energetic enough to be counted by the STS-6 Geiger tubes used in the lab.

Any Geiger counter used in the field that is sensitive to beta should detect it. (Some Geiger counters are not beta sensitive, e.g. they are gamma only, so they won't sense it. Some have a beta shield that can be opened (measures beta + gamma) or closed (measures gamma only); Sr-90 can only be measured if the shield is open. In fact, the DP-5V includes a Sr-90 check source in the beta shield that can be positioned in front of the tube to test it.)

Sr-90 is also highly abundant. It is one of the most common fission products in spent nuclear fuel. The Soviets extracted this in bulk to create RTGs to power lighthouses, among other things.

The first five bodies were found, autopsied, and buried before Ivanov was put in charge, which was 1 1/2 months before the other four bodies were found. I have no idea if they were ever tested for radiation, or when Geiger counters were first brought into the investigation. The only report I've seen concerns the four bodies in the ravine.

Radiation is something that few understand and everyone fears, so concerns about it are easily exaggerated. I want to see quantitative data. Statements of Geiger counters going nuts are almost meaningless without actual numbers. Recently I watched some UrbEx in Fukushima. The Geiger counter supposedly going nuts was displaying about 5x normal background. It's definitely contaminated, but the external dose rate there is nothing at all to fear, especially considering that a typical commercial jet airplane flight is 7x higher in dose rate than the Geiger counter going nuts in Fukushima.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2019, 05:20:15 AM
Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Ryan on March 02, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Sorry about the confusion. I'm not well versed with the case material as a whole. I was relying on the timeline at https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786#timeline stating that on March 17, "Vladimir Korotaev is fired and Lev Ivanov is assigned as a lead investigator" and that the funerals for the first five found were held on March 9 and 10. Is this timeline in error?

Ivanov clearly knows the clothing of the four in the ravine is contaminated when he orders the testing on May 18. But the question of when and how contamination was first discovered is really interesting. I don't know.

So the morgue staff handling the first five bodies were taking radiation precautions? I'm really interested in the source for that.

I've not heard of using alcohol as part of an external decontamination protocol for radiation. Typically, radioactive contamination takes the form of dust, so anything you'd use to get dust and dirt off will work, e.g. washing hands with soap and water, and taking a shower after removing contaminated work clothes.

As for internal contamination, I've been told by multiple sources on my Chernobyl visits that consumption of vodka is necessary to wash out any radiation you may have absorbed. One worker told me about how a change to his social life caused him to drink a lot less. His next whole body radiation scan came up high. Then his social life changed again and he started drinking more; his next scan was lower! I'm not sure if people actually believe this.... grin1

Playing devil's advocate for a minute.... Alcohol is used for biological decontamination. Dead bodies can transmit disease. Mortuary staff likely take standard biological precautions after handling dead bodies. Could this vat of alcohol have been part of these standard precautions, and have nothing to do with radiation?

Also, people don't understand radiation at all. They think it can be spread from person to person like a contagious disease. After the last four bodies were confirmed to be contaminated with radioisotopes, could the mortuary staff handling the first five bodies have heard this and been spooked? They convinced themselves that they weren't contaminated because they washed their hands in alcohol. They told people this so they wouldn't be stigmatized for being radioactive. And that turned into a story about the mortuary obtaining a vat of alcohol to prevent radioactive contamination?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 12:35:38 PM
So Strontium 90 has an decay energy of just over 0.5 MeV.  Not sure if this is max or average tbh.  So should be detected by the instrument used?

Were there any tests done on the first bodies found?

I doubt very much that the clothes would act to concentrate the activity of potassium ifrom the stream.  Potassium compounds are usually soluble.  Strontium on the other hand is much less soluble.

Ryan’s input into this aspect might be fundamental to determine if there was nuclear involvement.

Thanks!

Sr-90 is definitely possible. It is what I consider one of the more likely possibilities.

It is considered a pure beta emitter, so we don't have to assume the dosimetrist conducting the lab testing missed something.

It definitely is energetic enough to be counted by the STS-6 Geiger tubes used in the lab.

Any Geiger counter used in the field that is sensitive to beta should detect it. (Some Geiger counters are not beta sensitive, e.g. they are gamma only, so they won't sense it. Some have a beta shield that can be opened (measures beta + gamma) or closed (measures gamma only); Sr-90 can only be measured if the shield is open. In fact, the DP-5V includes a Sr-90 check source in the beta shield that can be positioned in front of the tube to test it.)

Sr-90 is also highly abundant. It is one of the most common fission products in spent nuclear fuel. The Soviets extracted this in bulk to create RTGs to power lighthouses, among other things.

The first five bodies were found, autopsied, and buried before Ivanov was put in charge, which was 1 1/2 months before the other four bodies were found. I have no idea if they were ever tested for radiation, or when Geiger counters were first brought into the investigation. The only report I've seen concerns the four bodies in the ravine.

Radiation is something that few understand and everyone fears, so concerns about it are easily exaggerated. I want to see quantitative data. Statements of Geiger counters going nuts are almost meaningless without actual numbers. Recently I watched some UrbEx in Fukushima. The Geiger counter supposedly going nuts was displaying about 5x normal background. It's definitely contaminated, but the external dose rate there is nothing at all to fear, especially considering that a typical commercial jet airplane flight is 7x higher in dose rate than the Geiger counter going nuts in Fukushima.

It all really depends on what Instruments were used in the Field, so to speak. Without knowing the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER or COUNTERS used we really cant make any calculated judgments. The Field Tests would be of much more importance to us than the Lab Tests months after the EVENT.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 12:46:23 PM
Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Yes thats well spotted. And its easy to overlook. Because there is virtually NOTHING regarding the use of Geiger Counters at  the site or sites of the Incident. Nothing about the type of Geiger Counter or Counters used, or where they were used or when they were used or the READOUTS. When I go out in the field, so to speak, with My Metal Detectors or Geiger Counter I take READINGS, I dont just say oh that was a loud noise going off or wow the Digital Display went crazy, I would make notes of the READOUTS. The Dyatlov Incident was under Investigation as a possible Major Crime Scene, so WHY didnt any one take PROPER READOUTS ! ?  Or maybe they did  !  ?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Yes thats well spotted. And its easy to overlook. Because there is virtually NOTHING regarding the use of Geiger Counters at  the site or sites of the Incident. Nothing about the type of Geiger Counter or Counters used, or where they were used or when they were used or the READOUTS. When I go out in the field, so to speak, with My Metal Detectors or Geiger Counter I take READINGS, I dont just say oh that was a loud noise going off or wow the Digital Display went crazy, I would make notes of the READOUTS. The Dyatlov Incident was under Investigation as a possible Major Crime Scene, so WHY didnt any one take PROPER READOUTS ! ?  Or maybe they did  !  ?
They must have. Imo Ivanov was keeping inline with his oath to the state, so he's happy to explain there was a coverup but not prepared to divulge state secrets wrt the contents. That's why i put so much store in his "hints" - "fire orbs & directed heat rays".
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2019, 02:08:08 PM
Great to have Ryan onboard but a small correction. Ivanov replaced Tempalov within days, before the tent was moved and the first five were buried.
So this raises an interesting question, if the tent was checked for radiation the first five bodies must have also been but this (strongly?) suggests the results are part of the confiscation. Remember the tests we're discussing here were privately sponsored by Ivanov later on and although he (and his superior) were happy to discuss the the fact that the confiscation occurred they were very tight lipped about what material was removed. Ivanov could only have been discussing "fire orbs and directed heat rays" later because there was photographic evidence but he never actually states that. Ditto the morgue staff had a vat of alcohol to clean themselves of radioactive dust so they must have tested the first five but Ivanov doesn't discuss that (it's possible he didn't know of course).

Sorry about the confusion. I'm not well versed with the case material as a whole. I was relying on the timeline at https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786#timeline (https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786#timeline) stating that on March 17, "Vladimir Korotaev is fired and Lev Ivanov is assigned as a lead investigator" and that the funerals for the first five found were held on March 9 and 10. Is this timeline in error?
"For example, Lebedev, a member of the rescue team, stated in the criminal case file: ‘The next morning (that is, the morning of February 28) in the presence of comrade Ivanov, all of the items were taken out of the tent.’

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 84). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.


Ivanov clearly knows the clothing of the four in the ravine is contaminated when he orders the testing on May 18. But the question of when and how contamination was first discovered is really interesting. I don't know.

So the morgue staff handling the first five bodies were taking radiation precautions? I'm really interested in the source for that.
"One more interesting detail regarding May 1959 autopsy was provided by Vladimir Korotaev, at the time a recent law school graduate working for the Ivdel Prosecutor's Office. He was helping Vasily Tempalov for the first few days of the investigation. He claimed that he was present as a corpsman during the forensic examination of the last four bodies. According to Korotaev, "...there were two barrels with alcohol, and after every autopsy we, naked, plunged into them. It made me think: what was going on..." Korotaev's testimony looks somewhat doubtful: dipping naked into the barrel with alcohol, besides being a very painful experience, would not make any sense - other, more efficient and less traumatic decontaminating agents were available at the time.
Lobatcheva, Irina. Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret (p. 105). Parallel Worlds' Books. Kindle Edition. "
I've not heard of using alcohol as part of an external decontamination protocol for radiation. Typically, radioactive contamination takes the form of dust, so anything you'd use to get dust and dirt off will work, e.g. washing hands with soap and water, and taking a shower after removing contaminated work clothes.

As for internal contamination, I've been told by multiple sources on my Chernobyl visits that consumption of vodka is necessary to wash out any radiation you may have absorbed. One worker told me about how a change to his social life caused him to drink a lot less. His next whole body radiation scan came up high. Then his social life changed again and he started drinking more; his next scan was lower! I'm not sure if people actually believe this.... grin1 
Apparently Soviet submarines issued alcohol for washing as a precaution against radiation.... Maybe they didn't wash with it  kewl1

Playing devil's advocate for a minute.... Alcohol is used for biological decontamination. Dead bodies can transmit disease. Mortuary staff likely take standard biological precautions after handling dead bodies. Could this vat of alcohol have been part of these standard precautions, and have nothing to do with radiation?

Also, people don't understand radiation at all. They think it can be spread from person to person like a contagious disease. After the last four bodies were confirmed to be contaminated with radioisotopes, could the mortuary staff handling the first five bodies have heard this and been spooked? They convinced themselves that they weren't contaminated because they washed their hands in alcohol. They told people this so they wouldn't be stigmatized for being radioactive. And that turned into a story about the mortuary obtaining a vat of alcohol to prevent radioactive contamination?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2019, 02:23:20 PM
But, as it happened, it mattered little what Prosecutor Tempalov did that day. Once Tempalov returned to Ivdel, he wouldn’t get a chance even to initiate his case; and, within two days’ time, his services would no longer be required. In fact, after the first bodies had been found the day before, higher-ups in the regional prosecutor’s office were already arranging to have Tempalov replaced by a more powerful prosecutor. By March 1, they would settle on Lev Ivanov, a man who would come to personify the Dyatlov case for decades to come. Ivanov liked to tell people that his personal motto for success was “I am honest, not corrupt, and I sleep well.” By the end of the case, however, Ivanov would betray his motto on at least two of these counts.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 122-123). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 04:37:27 PM
But, as it happened, it mattered little what Prosecutor Tempalov did that day. Once Tempalov returned to Ivdel, he wouldn’t get a chance even to initiate his case; and, within two days’ time, his services would no longer be required. In fact, after the first bodies had been found the day before, higher-ups in the regional prosecutor’s office were already arranging to have Tempalov replaced by a more powerful prosecutor. By March 1, they would settle on Lev Ivanov, a man who would come to personify the Dyatlov case for decades to come. Ivanov liked to tell people that his personal motto for success was “I am honest, not corrupt, and I sleep well.” By the end of the case, however, Ivanov would betray his motto on at least two of these counts.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 122-123). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

Maybe Lev Ivanov is a person who needs a Post on his own in this Forum  !  ?  It seems like we can consider him a very important person regarding the Case overall. On the one hand he brings the Case to a rather abrupt end and on the other hand he starts talking about UFO's ETC ETC.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 03, 2019, 03:50:58 AM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 03, 2019, 05:29:06 AM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 03, 2019, 11:51:19 AM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

Even if the Geiger counter did go a bit crazy it indicates radiation at the tent when there should be none above background.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 03, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

Even if the Geiger counter did go a bit crazy it indicates radiation at the tent when there should be none above background.


As i've posted below, background is potentially highly variable. The tent could have been exposed to stream/river silt with high natural levels on their trip or previous ones. I don't think it's that simple.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 04, 2019, 12:08:06 PM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.


I was thinking along the lines of some kind of ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE. There are many stories of Electrical Interference Interfering with Instruments on such vehicles as Airplanes and Ships, and Motor Cars, etc. And one area of the World in particular is known to be a source of strange events possibly caused by some kind of Electrical Interference, 'The Bermuda Triangle'. Also such Electrical Interference is said to have occurred many times when near to UFO sightings.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 04, 2019, 02:12:33 PM
I was thinking along the lines of some kind of ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE. There are many stories of Electrical Interference Interfering with Instruments on such vehicles as Airplanes and Ships, and Motor Cars, etc. And one area of the World in particular is known to be a source of strange events possibly caused by some kind of Electrical Interference, 'The Bermuda Triangle'. Also such Electrical Interference is said to have occurred many times when near to UFO sightings.
Excellent point, if a geiger counter is just registering voltage pulses across a sensor using a few hundred volts, then what if there was ambient electro magnetic energy at sufficient strength?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 04, 2019, 03:30:06 PM
I was thinking along the lines of some kind of ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE. There are many stories of Electrical Interference Interfering with Instruments on such vehicles as Airplanes and Ships, and Motor Cars, etc. And one area of the World in particular is known to be a source of strange events possibly caused by some kind of Electrical Interference, 'The Bermuda Triangle'. Also such Electrical Interference is said to have occurred many times when near to UFO sightings.
Excellent point, if a geiger counter is just registering voltage pulses across a sensor using a few hundred volts, then what if there was ambient electro magnetic energy at sufficient strength?

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 04, 2019, 03:36:26 PM
Just a quickie on this Post. What if something else caused Ivanov's Geiger Counter to go crazy at the Tent Site  !  ?  I will put this question in the UFO section as well.

According to Ryan it would have to be a hard beta emitter which narrows down the "something elses" somewhat and pushes Carbon 14 off the list. But as Ryan says "go crazy" has little objective value.

Even if the Geiger counter did go a bit crazy it indicates radiation at the tent when there should be none above background.


As i've posted below, background is potentially highly variable. The tent could have been exposed to stream/river silt with high natural levels on their trip or previous ones. I don't think it's that simple.

Actually, it probably is that simple.  The conclusion of the tests in the investigation and from ryans's recent informed analysis is that the radiation levels were far from natural.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 04, 2019, 04:15:44 PM
I was thinking along the lines of some kind of ELECTRICAL INTERFERENCE. There are many stories of Electrical Interference Interfering with Instruments on such vehicles as Airplanes and Ships, and Motor Cars, etc. And one area of the World in particular is known to be a source of strange events possibly caused by some kind of Electrical Interference, 'The Bermuda Triangle'. Also such Electrical Interference is said to have occurred many times when near to UFO sightings.
Excellent point, if a geiger counter is just registering voltage pulses across a sensor using a few hundred volts, then what if there was ambient electro magnetic energy at sufficient strength?

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation

Yes, but dont forget, thats exactly how Geiger Counters work. They work because of Electrical Interference i e the ELECTRONS in the GEIGER TUBE are interfering with the normal state of the Geiger Tube. Thats why I have said before that the type of TUBE is very important in our investigation. And its the Electrons that are responsible for the READOUT. Therefore its possible that an external Electrical source could cause false readouts or and the Instrument going CRAZY as per Lev Ivanov's statement.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 05, 2019, 01:01:12 AM

Actually, it probably is that simple.  The conclusion of the tests in the investigation and from ryans's recent informed analysis is that the radiation levels were far from natural.
Or otherwise. That's my point. The radiation levels are probably unnatural but possibly just natural...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#Sea_and_river_silt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#Sea_and_river_silt)
"In one kilogram of soil, the potassium-40 amounts to an average 370 Bq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bq) of radiation, with a typical range of 100–700 Bq; the others each contribute some 25 Bq, with typical ranges of 10–50 Bq (7–50 Bq for the 232Th).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_radioactivity#cite_note-1) Some soils may vary greatly from these norms.".
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 05, 2019, 01:29:39 AM

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation
Yes i know how a geiger counter works. The ball lightning theory asserts that the locality experiences very high electro magnetic energies and :-
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 05, 2019, 08:41:53 AM

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation
Yes i know how a geiger counter works. The ball lightning theory asserts that the locality experiences very high electro magnetic energies and :-
  • We don't know what effect that could have on electronics operating on extremely modest amperages. We're talking about EMF that can make airplane instruments go haywire thousands of feet away.
  • A geiger counter counts ionisation cascades which in normal conditions can only be produced from ionising radiation but the BL theory asserts this locale is abnormal and demonstrates electrical phenomena that cannot be explained by our current science.

If the electromagnetic phenomenon was there during the investigation then it should have affected all types of electronic equipment especially things like radios but there were no other obvious issues.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 05, 2019, 10:59:32 AM

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation
Yes i know how a geiger counter works. The ball lightning theory asserts that the locality experiences very high electro magnetic energies and :-
  • We don't know what effect that could have on electronics operating on extremely modest amperages. We're talking about EMF that can make airplane instruments go haywire thousands of feet away.
  • A geiger counter counts ionisation cascades which in normal conditions can only be produced from ionising radiation but the BL theory asserts this locale is abnormal and demonstrates electrical phenomena that cannot be explained by our current science.

If the electromagnetic phenomenon was there during the investigation then it should have affected all types of electronic equipment especially things like radios but there were no other obvious issues.
No i'd have to disagree, it would all depend, the radio was at the rescue camp 400m from the labaz and behind a hill relative to the tent. We don't how it would have worked at the tent. I think it's a reasonable point that the delicate electronics of a hand held geiger counter could possibly have been affected at the top of the mountain and not lower.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 05, 2019, 11:15:03 AM

It's very unlikely that any readings on a geiger counter would be because of electrical interference.  These instruments measure ionisation of a gas in a tube.  Only something very energetic like radioactive particles or gamma rays are likely to cause that ionisation.  The instruments are designed to measure radiation.  So there are only two reasons why it would react:

1. There is ionising radiation present
2.  The instrument is faulty, but this would not be selective around the tent only.

Also, there is very real and definite radiation on the clothes samples, so if a Geiger counter also responded around the camp site why would you need to look for a different explanation other than radiation?  It doesn't make sense.  A more obvious question is where did the radiation come from and I think Ryan has offered another possible explanation
Yes i know how a geiger counter works. The ball lightning theory asserts that the locality experiences very high electro magnetic energies and :-
  • We don't know what effect that could have on electronics operating on extremely modest amperages. We're talking about EMF that can make airplane instruments go haywire thousands of feet away.
  • A geiger counter counts ionisation cascades which in normal conditions can only be produced from ionising radiation but the BL theory asserts this locale is abnormal and demonstrates electrical phenomena that cannot be explained by our current science.

If the electromagnetic phenomenon was there during the investigation then it should have affected all types of electronic equipment especially things like radios but there were no other obvious issues.

It doesnt have to be ELECTROMAGNETIC PHENOMENON. I use the word ELECTRICAL. Any way we dont  know if any other Instruments or electrical equipment were affected. As you know the original Investigation left a lot to be desired.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 06, 2019, 01:07:05 AM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 06, 2019, 08:21:50 AM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.

But what was a trained radiologist doing there?  It is even more mysterious than no results were made available.

And don’t forget the contaminated clothes.

It doesn’t seem like something that should be ignored or written off as unimportant especially given what Ryan has said about the tests.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 06, 2019, 01:21:15 PM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.

Nice one.  I forgot about that. So much to remember and take in.  Vladimir Askinadzi seems a reliable witness. It kind of reinforces the belief that The Authorities were not trying to cover any thing up in the first place. Its only after the finding of the 4 bodies at the Ravine when things CHANGE QUICKLY. Why ! ? Because if the Authorities were trying to cover things up to begin with then they would not have asked Vladimir Askinadzi to recruit a Group of Students to look for the Dyatlov Group. The Authorities would simply have closed off the area much earlier, bringing in their own people. As for the READOUTS from any Geiger Counters / Dosimeters, lets remember that there was no DIGITAL equipment in those days. So we are talking ANALOGUE Instruments. So they would not have the luxury that we have today where such equipment automatically LOGS the Readings, which can later be downloaded to a Computer. So if all those Analogue Instruments were going crazy then there wouldnt be much to record. That may explain why there as never been any talk of such READOUTS.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 06, 2019, 01:24:30 PM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.

But what was a trained radiologist doing there?  It is even more mysterious than no results were made available.

And don’t forget the contaminated clothes.

It doesn’t seem like something that should be ignored or written off as unimportant especially given what Ryan has said about the tests.

Maybe because Ivanovs Geiger Counter was going crazy so they brought in the experts with other equipment.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 06, 2019, 11:39:39 PM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.

Nice one.  I forgot about that. So much to remember and take in.  Vladimir Askinadzi seems a reliable witness. It kind of reinforces the belief that The Authorities were not trying to cover any thing up in the first place. Its only after the finding of the 4 bodies at the Ravine when things CHANGE QUICKLY. Why ! ? Because if the Authorities were trying to cover things up to begin with then they would not have asked Vladimir Askinadzi to recruit a Group of Students to look for the Dyatlov Group. The Authorities would simply have closed off the area much earlier, bringing in their own people. As for the READOUTS from any Geiger Counters / Dosimeters, lets remember that there was no DIGITAL equipment in those days. So we are talking ANALOGUE Instruments. So they would not have the luxury that we have today where such equipment automatically LOGS the Readings, which can later be downloaded to a Computer. So if all those Analogue Instruments were going crazy then there wouldnt be much to record. That may explain why there as never been any talk of such READOUTS.

So we know radiation checks were carried out earlier on but with no results included in the files.  Ivanov describes the Geiger counter going crazy near the tent.  So it’s important information!  Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!

Combining the above information with the findings of widespread contamination of the clothes makes it even more compelling.

Yes instrument may have not been as good as modern equipment but ivanov would not have said it went crazy around the tent unless there was something significant.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 07, 2019, 02:40:06 AM
Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!
Not so! (imo).  kewl1
Ivanov mentions the radiation in his interview but it's dominated by fire orbs and the radiation does have explanations - occupational and natural. Although the authorities investigated radiation levels they don't seem to have subjected the rescuers to radiation checks which surely would have been performed if dangerous levels were found. It's a great pity they didn't identify the isotope. If potassium then the whole discussion is null and void. If say strontium then the water test is very relevant and the original levels were much higher. But even then occupational is an explanation.

Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 07, 2019, 08:48:57 AM
Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!
Not so! (imo).  kewl1
Ivanov mentions the radiation in his interview but it's dominated by fire orbs and the radiation does have explanations - occupational and natural. Although the authorities investigated radiation levels they don't seem to have subjected the rescuers to radiation checks which surely would have been performed if dangerous levels were found. It's a great pity they didn't identify the isotope. If potassium then the whole discussion is null and void. If say strontium then the water test is very relevant and the original levels were much higher. But even then occupational is an explanation.

Unlikely to be occasional if you look at Ryan’s posts.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 07, 2019, 09:02:51 AM
Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!
Not so! (imo).  kewl1
Ivanov mentions the radiation in his interview but it's dominated by fire orbs and the radiation does have explanations - occupational and natural. Although the authorities investigated radiation levels they don't seem to have subjected the rescuers to radiation checks which surely would have been performed if dangerous levels were found. It's a great pity they didn't identify the isotope. If potassium then the whole discussion is null and void. If say strontium then the water test is very relevant and the original levels were much higher. But even then occupational is an explanation.

Unlikely to be occasional if you look at Ryan’s posts.

Ivanov then starts to expand on his UFO theory beginning with the radiation aspect;

Only the sky was left, with all its contents and an unfathomable energy that had turned out to be beyond human strength. With the assistance of scientists from the Urals Branch of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR I undertook extensive tests of clothes and some organs of the deceased for presence of “radiation”.

With red lights and warning signals all around this case, Ivanov would not have undertaken radiation tests on his own initiative as he implies here. The truth is that he was instructed to do so, as we will see. After the discussion of the tests for radioactivity, Ivanov makes the following statement which firmly takes the subject away from the military and into the realm of UFOs;
I discarded the version of nuclear weapon tests in that area. It was then that I came to deal directly with Fire Orbs.

He describes various witness sightings of orbs/ lights in the skies in the northern Urals, along with his interviews of the witnesses. Significantly he mentions the sighting of one of the orbs on the night the Dyatlov group died (1/ 2 February 1959) by the students of the Geography faculty of the Pedagogical Institute in Sverdlovsk and mentions witness Georgy Atamanaki seeing the orb. Atamanaki was to take part in the search.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 07, 2019, 12:46:09 PM
Just seen this from the Askinadzi interview http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0
"Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results."


So it's official. Measurements were taken by trained personnel but the only knowledge we have of them is that Ivanov made a comment about a geiger counter going crazy at the tent.

Nice one.  I forgot about that. So much to remember and take in.  Vladimir Askinadzi seems a reliable witness. It kind of reinforces the belief that The Authorities were not trying to cover any thing up in the first place. Its only after the finding of the 4 bodies at the Ravine when things CHANGE QUICKLY. Why ! ? Because if the Authorities were trying to cover things up to begin with then they would not have asked Vladimir Askinadzi to recruit a Group of Students to look for the Dyatlov Group. The Authorities would simply have closed off the area much earlier, bringing in their own people. As for the READOUTS from any Geiger Counters / Dosimeters, lets remember that there was no DIGITAL equipment in those days. So we are talking ANALOGUE Instruments. So they would not have the luxury that we have today where such equipment automatically LOGS the Readings, which can later be downloaded to a Computer. So if all those Analogue Instruments were going crazy then there wouldnt be much to record. That may explain why there as never been any talk of such READOUTS.

So we know radiation checks were carried out earlier on but with no results included in the files.  Ivanov describes the Geiger counter going crazy near the tent.  So it’s important information!  Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!

Combining the above information with the findings of widespread contamination of the clothes makes it even more compelling.

Yes instrument may have not been as good as modern equipment but ivanov would not have said it went crazy around the tent unless there was something significant.


Yes and that significant something could have been because the Geiger Counter went off the scale, literally. Meaning it wasnt possible to take READOUTS. And that may have been the case with the other Instruments brought in to the Investigation in the field. And that may help to explain the sudden ending of the Case ! ?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 07, 2019, 12:49:24 PM
Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!
Not so! (imo).  kewl1
Ivanov mentions the radiation in his interview but it's dominated by fire orbs and the radiation does have explanations - occupational and natural. Although the authorities investigated radiation levels they don't seem to have subjected the rescuers to radiation checks which surely would have been performed if dangerous levels were found. It's a great pity they didn't identify the isotope. If potassium then the whole discussion is null and void. If say strontium then the water test is very relevant and the original levels were much higher. But even then occupational is an explanation.

Well I hardly think natural or occupational Radiation would cause the Geiger Counters to go CRAZY. If it was indeed as a result of Radiation. It may still have been some other ELECTRICAL phenomenon.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 07, 2019, 02:14:40 PM
Just as important as what he said about fire orbs!
Not so! (imo).  kewl1
Ivanov mentions the radiation in his interview but it's dominated by fire orbs and the radiation does have explanations - occupational and natural. Although the authorities investigated radiation levels they don't seem to have subjected the rescuers to radiation checks which surely would have been performed if dangerous levels were found. It's a great pity they didn't identify the isotope. If potassium then the whole discussion is null and void. If say strontium then the water test is very relevant and the original levels were much higher. But even then occupational is an explanation.

Unlikely to be occasional if you look at Ryan’s posts.

Ivanov then starts to expand on his UFO theory beginning with the radiation aspect;

Only the sky was left, with all its contents and an unfathomable energy that had turned out to be beyond human strength. With the assistance of scientists from the Urals Branch of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR I undertook extensive tests of clothes and some organs of the deceased for presence of “radiation”.

With red lights and warning signals all around this case, Ivanov would not have undertaken radiation tests on his own initiative as he implies here. The truth is that he was instructed to do so, as we will see. After the discussion of the tests for radioactivity, Ivanov makes the following statement which firmly takes the subject away from the military and into the realm of UFOs;
I discarded the version of nuclear weapon tests in that area. It was then that I came to deal directly with Fire Orbs.

He describes various witness sightings of orbs/ lights in the skies in the northern Urals, along with his interviews of the witnesses. Significantly he mentions the sighting of one of the orbs on the night the Dyatlov group died (1/ 2 February 1959) by the students of the Geography faculty of the Pedagogical Institute in Sverdlovsk and mentions witness Georgy Atamanaki seeing the orb. Atamanaki was to take part in the search.


Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 07, 2019, 02:42:59 PM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 07, 2019, 03:42:53 PM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?

I don't know.  Why cover up after all this time.  It's a good question.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 07, 2019, 05:00:25 PM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?

I don't know.  Why cover up after all this time.  It's a good question.

Then we are back to the question ; What is he covering up  !  ?  What is it if it wasnt a Military accident of some kind that would need covering up  !  ? I dont think there is really enough to even suggest a Military cover up so, it must have been something else that was so UNUSUAL and DANGEROUS that the Investigation was brought to a sudden end and the area was SEALED OFF for several years.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 08, 2019, 01:08:00 AM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?

I don't know.  Why cover up after all this time.  It's a good question.

Then we are back to the question ; What is he covering up  !  ?  What is it if it wasnt a Military accident of some kind that would need covering up  !  ? I dont think there is really enough to even suggest a Military cover up so, it must have been something else that was so UNUSUAL and DANGEROUS that the Investigation was brought to a sudden end and the area was SEALED OFF for several years.


No, we're back to the question - "is he covering up or is he genuine about fire orbs?".


I vote for genuine.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 08, 2019, 04:14:29 AM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?

I don't know.  Why cover up after all this time.  It's a good question.

Then we are back to the question ; What is he covering up  !  ?  What is it if it wasnt a Military accident of some kind that would need covering up  !  ? I dont think there is really enough to even suggest a Military cover up so, it must have been something else that was so UNUSUAL and DANGEROUS that the Investigation was brought to a sudden end and the area was SEALED OFF for several years.


No, we're back to the question - "is he covering up or is he genuine about fire orbs?".


I vote for genuine.

I think he was still covering up.  He did not want to damage his own reputation and admit he was lying?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 08, 2019, 05:48:54 AM
Or, he is simply incompetent.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 08, 2019, 06:35:04 AM

Do you wonder whether the UFO implication by Ivanov is just a diversion to throw people off the truth?  It's kind of a classic technique that was use by the USA a lot when testing new hardware that they didn't want to become public knowledge.  When the authorities or people strongly linked to the authorities start talking about UFOs it usually means diversion?
Understood but he made this interview in 1990, 31 years later, after perestroika had eased things. He apologises for the coverup but makes it clear that he had no choice - "Beria was gone but his methods remained". So why cover up 31 years later?

I don't know.  Why cover up after all this time.  It's a good question.

Then we are back to the question ; What is he covering up  !  ?  What is it if it wasnt a Military accident of some kind that would need covering up  !  ? I dont think there is really enough to even suggest a Military cover up so, it must have been something else that was so UNUSUAL and DANGEROUS that the Investigation was brought to a sudden end and the area was SEALED OFF for several years.


No, we're back to the question - "is he covering up or is he genuine about fire orbs?".


I vote for genuine.

I think he was still covering up.  He did not want to damage his own reputation and admit he was lying?


He stated that he had been ordered to lie?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 08, 2019, 06:44:26 AM
Or, he is simply incompetent.


Or he was competent but the evidence of this has been confiscated....


All we have is his interview and a huge pile of ambiguities. He had all the evidence.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 08, 2019, 08:49:16 AM
Or, he is simply incompetent.

I wouldn’t rule that out either.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 08, 2019, 12:09:19 PM
LEV IVANOV. Competent or incompetent. Genuine or false. Cover up or no cover up. And this is just Lev Ivanov's part in this MYSTERY. Like I have said, he needs his own section in this Forum.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 06:07:13 AM
LEV IVANOV. Competent or incompetent. Genuine or false. Cover up or no cover up. And this is just Lev Ivanov's part in this MYSTERY. Like I have said, he needs his own section in this Forum.
Quite agree, we need less of "Gravity fluctuation / Teleportation - it's highly technical but possible" (rolls eyes) and more on Lev Ivanov's interview which imo is the key event to be considered.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 14, 2019, 05:15:59 AM
Aha!

The story so far...
Carbon 14 would be a good explanation for the detected radiation except for (as pointed out by Ryan), it is a weak emitter of beta below the threshold of the detectors.
But according to - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14 it can be detected if volumes are high enough. The G-M detectors probably operating at 3% efficiency.
If there was a lot of C14 there it could be an explanation for the tests.
So i hear you thinking, how does a peak in the Urals get much higher than normal levels of C14?
Because if a proportion of atmospheric C14 is ionised (somehow) and the peak has the reverse charge then it will collect.
Back to electro magnetism?

Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 14, 2019, 05:27:09 AM
Aha!

The story so far...
Carbon 14 would be a good explanation for the detected radiation except for (as pointed out by Ryan), it is a weak emitter of beta below the threshold of the detectors.
But according to - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14 it can be detected if volumes are high enough. The G-M detectors probably operating at 3% efficiency.
If there was a lot of C14 there it could be an explanation for the tests.
So i hear you thinking, how does a peak in the Urals get much higher than normal levels of C14?
Because if a proportion of atmospheric C14 is ionised (somehow) and the peak has the reverse charge then it will collect.
Back to electro magnetism?

If it was carbon 14 then it may be higher there because there is more cosmic radiation being closer to the pole and cosmic rays convert nitrogen into carbon 14.

Still doesn’t sound like a likely contaminant though.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 14, 2019, 06:05:17 AM
Aha!

The story so far...
Carbon 14 would be a good explanation for the detected radiation except for (as pointed out by Ryan), it is a weak emitter of beta below the threshold of the detectors.
But according to - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14) it can be detected if volumes are high enough. The G-M detectors probably operating at 3% efficiency.
If there was a lot of C14 there it could be an explanation for the tests.
So i hear you thinking, how does a peak in the Urals get much higher than normal levels of C14?
Because if a proportion of atmospheric C14 is ionised (somehow) and the peak has the reverse charge then it will collect.
Back to electro magnetism?

If it was carbon 14 then it may be higher there because there is more cosmic radiation being closer to the pole and cosmic rays convert nitrogen into carbon 14.

Still doesn’t sound like a likely contaminant though.
Well using the 3% efficiency figure you would need 30 times the number of decays of C14 compared to say strontium?

So some possible sources :-During the 50s and 60s the concentration of C14 doubled due to atomic tests most of them atmospheric. 1958 being the second biggest ever  - https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/nucleartesttally
Lightning produces gamma rays that could possibly imitate cosmic rays? One of the sources for the no2/nitric acid could have been electrical discharge. Semyon's photos are (asserted by me) to be of strong electro magnetic energy.
Snow storms create ionisation via mechanical collision. Some of this could be C14.


Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 14, 2019, 09:45:20 AM
Carbon 14 could be derived from Historical tests yes, but not from lightning.  You need neutrons rather than gamma rays.

Lightning could generate some NO2.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 14, 2019, 12:16:41 PM
Carbon 14 could be derived from Historical tests yes, but not from lightning.  You need neutrons rather than gamma rays.

Lightning could generate some NO2.

Regards
Star man
But where do the neutrons come from?  kewl1 https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/lightning-can-trigger-nuclear-reactions-creating-rare-atomic-isotopes
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 14, 2019, 01:18:55 PM
Carbon 14 could be derived from Historical tests yes, but not from lightning.  You need neutrons rather than gamma rays.

Lightning could generate some NO2.

Regards
Star man
But where do the neutrons come from?  kewl1 https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/lightning-can-trigger-nuclear-reactions-creating-rare-atomic-isotopes

Never heard of that before.  Interesting.  Still it's unlikely candidate for Dpi contamination, given what Ryan has said.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 14, 2019, 02:03:07 PM
Carbon 14 could be derived from Historical tests yes, but not from lightning.  You need neutrons rather than gamma rays.

Lightning could generate some NO2.

Regards
Star man
But where do the neutrons come from?  kewl1 https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/lightning-can-trigger-nuclear-reactions-creating-rare-atomic-isotopes (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/lightning-can-trigger-nuclear-reactions-creating-rare-atomic-isotopes)

Never heard of that before.  Interesting.  Still it's unlikely candidate for Dpi contamination, given what Ryan has said.


Yes but I'm challenging this in post #92? Particularly wrt ionised isotopes.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 14, 2019, 02:18:38 PM
Aha!

The story so far...
Carbon 14 would be a good explanation for the detected radiation except for (as pointed out by Ryan), it is a weak emitter of beta below the threshold of the detectors.
But according to - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14 it can be detected if volumes are high enough. The G-M detectors probably operating at 3% efficiency.
If there was a lot of C14 there it could be an explanation for the tests.
So i hear you thinking, how does a peak in the Urals get much higher than normal levels of C14?
Because if a proportion of atmospheric C14 is ionised (somehow) and the peak has the reverse charge then it will collect.
Back to electro magnetism?

Yes back to Electro Magnetism and therefore maybe an Electrical phenomenon for the reason that the Geiger Counters went crazy. 
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 14, 2019, 02:32:23 PM
Carbon 14 could be derived from Historical tests yes, but not from lightning.  You need neutrons rather than gamma rays.

Lightning could generate some NO2.

Regards
Star man
But where do the neutrons come from?  kewl1 https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/lightning-can-trigger-nuclear-reactions-creating-rare-atomic-isotopes

Never heard of that before.  Interesting.  Still it's unlikely candidate for Dpi contamination, given what Ryan has said.

Because its only scientists carrying out observations. And apparently the results of said observations didnt exactly set the scientific World alight so to speak, or even cause small ripples in the scientific community. Why ? Werent the observations finding that the Particles didnt exist for long ? And therefore how can that be of use to any investigation that we are concerned with !
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 14, 2019, 03:58:08 PM


Because its only scientists carrying out observations. And apparently the results of said observations didnt exactly set the scientific World alight so to speak, or even cause small ripples in the scientific community. Why ? Werent the observations finding that the Particles didnt exist for long ? And therefore how can that be of use to any investigation that we are concerned with !
C14 has a half life of several thousand years?
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: Star man on March 14, 2019, 04:16:53 PM


Because its only scientists carrying out observations. And apparently the results of said observations didnt exactly set the scientific World alight so to speak, or even cause small ripples in the scientific community. Why ? Werent the observations finding that the Particles didnt exist for long ? And therefore how can that be of use to any investigation that we are concerned with !
C14 has a half life of several thousand years?

Yes.  It's about 5700 years.
Title: Re: Carbon 14 is a beta emitter and occurs naturally
Post by: sarapuk on March 15, 2019, 01:00:27 PM


Because its only scientists carrying out observations. And apparently the results of said observations didnt exactly set the scientific World alight so to speak, or even cause small ripples in the scientific community. Why ? Werent the observations finding that the Particles didnt exist for long ? And therefore how can that be of use to any investigation that we are concerned with !
C14 has a half life of several thousand years?

Well the Particles I have seen mentioned were not around for more than a few seconds at most  !  ?  Some just Milliseconds.