Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Elk(s) attack => Topic started by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 10:56:24 AM

Title: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 10:56:24 AM
Hello,
my theory of Dyatlavov pass is following:

During 2011-2016 I served in military in reconaisance team as an older scout. In 2012 and 2014 I have been also deployed in Afghanistan. During my duty I was on 3 weeks dificult training in Savoi mountines, when at night were temperatures above -20 Celsium degrees. I mentioned this facts because I think that my minds could be a little bit similar like Zolotaryov`s.

The expedition has in tent quite aromatic food and was windy. If somebody spent longer time in nature, than his nose is much sensitive to any odeurs. If is windy and you are located 2-3 weeks in nature than is possible to spot by nose a person in 50m distance from you because of used deodorant.  Elks have a very good olfactory organs, much better than people. In my opinion they were tracked by food smell prints.

During the night or dark evening one of the person went to pie outside the tent. This person was relatively better dressed - he had a shoes and warm clothes. After the pie, (founded 0ml of urine in urine blader) he spotted elk/elks in very close distance of tent and panic started - chaotic footprints around the tent. He probably tried to hide behind the tent.  He noticed others in tent by voice. Elk/elks could hit the tent. This fact could forced the whole stress situation. So the others in tent started to rip the tent by knife to fast escape.

When they saw the whole panic situation they decided to establish "line formation". Line formation is a combat formation. This was probably Zolotaryov`s decission. In this "line formation" they tried to push out the elk/elks out of the tent teritorry. Adrenaline and stress situation caused imposibility of any time to dress up. They alternatively tried to push out the elk/elks. During the movement somebody threw the flashlight to elk/elks. The elk/elks probably started to be more and more agressive. During the pushing out probably occured first physical contacts between animal and Djatlavov members. Injured/scratched finger junctures. They probably fought by hand fight because they had any weapon. The whole fight culminated nearby the cedar. The elk critically wound Dubininova(critical chest wound) and her teammate(critical head wound). Doroshenko and his buddy started to escape in cedar crown. After the attack, the elk/elks escaped in forrest. Doroshenko and his buddy were not be able to get down from cedar crown. Adrenaline has already left. They probably fall down because of hypothermy.  Now started a very hard dilema. The whole group was wound by some type. Somebody critically, somebody less.

Zolotaryov decided to split the group for 2 teams. 1 three member team and second 6 member team (respective 3 member team) because Doroshenko with his cedar teammate were probably dead and Dubininova was dying. Both of teams tried to rescue Doroshenko and his cedar teammate by set up the fire. This is the reason of burns on their bodies and clothes. When they infered it has no sence, they took out their clothes. Dyatlavov members were still able to making decissions!

Dyatlavov, Zina and thirdone established team which was less wound and which was much movement available then others and they started to movement back to the tent for warm clothes, aid, maybe some food. Zolotaryov team tried to establish a new base nearby the cedar. He dragged dying Dubininova in a new base together with Brinogles. She was probably still alive because Doroshenko and his cedar friend were left under the cedar. (It has not sence to move them also).

Zolotaryov group vainly waited for Dyatlov team support. The reason of position manipulated with bodies mean that they moved in "column formation" - unfight formation. On the front tip of formation was the weakness member, second position was position of less weak member, third one was the strongest member. They gradually fell off during movement and person behind them checked by back turn them and tried to took some clothes. At this time they could be circa 1 hour out of the tent. They died because of hypothermy. In second team I paradoxically think that Dubinova died as a penultimate. Because I think she layed in the middle (second position form left) of four persons in snow burial. Later her body was torn down in stream by melting snow. The last buddy (second on right, died as the last) - maybe next day. The members in the middle tried to use dead bodies as an insulate.

On the pictures of Zina`s body we can see something what looks like the grass on her trousers, but I think that it is too short for grass - I think this is the elk/elks hair.
The elk`s footprints are in my opinion also spotted on the picture of photographed footprint in the snow.

Dubininova missed her tongue because of ownself beat which was caused by hypotermy. She bite just a bit (100ml of blood) in stomach. The residue of tongue was eaten by microorganisms or animal. Because of blood smell presence). It is also the reason why was founded in Doroshenko`s mouth the residues of his skin. He tried to avoid of tongue wound because of teeth grinding.

I think that military / nuclear theorys does not make sence. Every bomb test requires an observer or observation group, who is monitoring the drop zone because of effects evaluation. Any observators will not give a green light to bomb drop in case of 9 people in drop zone area. Also was the night. Half of 20.th century with absence of night vision items - such an attempt would not make sense. If you test something - you want to see the effect. Not dark night.

Also why should goverment kill own citizens? (9, young, loyal engineers - the future and elite of Soviet union)...?

This theory could be proved or disproved by simply DNA test from Zina`s trousers. However this is probably unreal after 60 years.



Sending greetings from Czech!
   


 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 11:15:55 AM
Also about blood presence in Dubininova stomach...

If she had a critically chest wound - she probably had closed pneumothorax, so she coughed the blood and then she swallowed it.
I think there was a combination of herself (teeth) wound and pneumothorax.

My opinion :)

Have a nice day.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 08, 2019, 01:14:17 PM
It was never described as blood  - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743
"The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass."
If the group left footprints wouldn't animals?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 01:51:06 PM
Hello,
thank you for your point.

I saw many animal footprints in my life.
I was trained to recognize according the footprints many informations. (Weigh of person, if he is carring a bergen, if he is fagued, etc..) all this small informations could tell me who can be my enemy. (Special operations long range distance group, or just some infantryman, etc..) Footprints are not just a footprints. Footprints are very good informations for someone who can read it.

The first picture is from Dyatlavov case evidence and I see there a many animal footprints. And I think this are the elks footprints.
Secondone is the elk footprint.

The  dark brown consistence in Dubininova stomach probably was the blood - refer the closed pneumothorax effects. If the broken rib ripped the cor wall - then the broken ribs should defect also the lung. 

But its just my opinion.

(https://i.ibb.co/0m3ZR0w/34563633-829896427202120-3814558273181319168-n.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

nine sided die (https://freeonlinedice.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/sbm9XCY/elk.gif) (https://imgbb.com/)


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 08, 2019, 01:56:47 PM
Interesting theory. We have had many animal theories and this is one more variation on the theme. Always good to see new ways of looking at the mystery.  Elks are big animals and their presence would have left many traces. HOOF PRINTS, HAIR, SCAT, come to mind.
I just cant see how such a big animal probably running around all over the place would escape without leaving plenty of evidence ! ?   
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: cz on April 08, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Interesting idea.

Are there any known instances of similar elk attacks?

The lack of traces is a problem for all the animal theories. I think I see what you mean on the image (although I cannot say whether it is an elk). What puzzles me is that the Mansi searchers have not have identified such traces. They should have been highly qualified, and the result would have relieved their people of any suspicion.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 03:03:28 PM
Check this video (for example).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P2tbsFTbPo
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 03:12:56 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 08, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
According Mansis skills with tracking - yes I think I know what you mean.

The problem is that they did not know all the informations which we know today after 60 years. They did not know the body dissect reports, etc. They were in terain and they just saw a dressed frozen bodies. They "just" saw the scenarary. They probalby had not time to analyze their recognitions with official investigators.

I also doubt that some of investigate officiers take not them seriously. In my opinion the investigators considered  Mansijs as some crazy bushers.

Mansijs probably are very good scouts, but this is a little bit more than tracking. Its about informations and personal inteligence. Im sure they could recognize elks footprints at place, or any place, but a lot of people will say that it can be printed week ago, 5 days ago, 4 days ago....

To recognize the footprints older than 48 hours you will have to lead a notes of weather for each day till you need to recognize. Because after 48 hours a lot of peaople cannot remeber what was the weather later.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Monika on April 09, 2019, 12:12:35 AM
Hello,

Here is my point of view. Against this theory (and any animals) says

- the lack of animal traces in the snow, on the tent and on the bodies
- chocolate and a large piece of pork have remained intact in the tent.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 12:34:48 AM
Hello Monika,
thank you for your point.

How can we see, some animal footrprints are spotted. It depends what they though by term “lack” of steps...

The elks are herbs eaters-they dont eat a meat or chocolate so it can be the reason why it stayed in tent.



Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 12:44:29 AM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 01:35:51 AM
According this facts I think there is no reason to "cover something" during the autopsyies by coroners..No - they just had not informations :)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:19:35 PM
Interesting idea.

Are there any known instances of similar elk attacks?

The lack of traces is a problem for all the animal theories. I think I see what you mean on the image (although I cannot say whether it is an elk). What puzzles me is that the Mansi searchers have not have identified such traces. They should have been highly qualified, and the result would have relieved their people of any suspicion.

There was no traces of any animals let alone a big animal like an ELK.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:25:11 PM
According Mansis skills with tracking - yes I think I know what you mean.

The problem is that they did not know all the informations which we know today after 60 years. They did not know the body dissect reports, etc. They were in terain and they just saw a dressed frozen bodies. They "just" saw the scenarary. They probalby had not time to analyze their recognitions with official investigators.

I also doubt that some of investigate officiers take not them seriously. In my opinion the investigators considered  Mansijs as some crazy bushers.

Mansijs probably are very good scouts, but this is a little bit more than tracking. Its about informations and personal inteligence. Im sure they could recognize elks footprints at place, or any place, but a lot of people will say that it can be printed week ago, 5 days ago, 4 days ago....

To recognize the footprints older than 48 hours you will have to lead a notes of weather for each day till you need to recognize. Because after 48 hours a lot of peaople cannot remeber what was the weather later.
[/quote


The Investigators were only to willing to let the Mansi help them in their search for the Dyatlov bodies. Therefore why would they have thought of them as crazy bushers ! ?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 02:10:29 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 02:33:36 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 02:38:09 PM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 

(https://i.ibb.co/Khpy2Zz/zina.jpg)



Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 02:51:34 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 03:01:46 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.

Because is not spotted the right human footprint in the picture view area circa (40cm) than it looks like running footprint - long distance between left footprint and right footprint, also the direction is straight (backs to animal footprints). According my opinion this human has been hit in running to the back right side of body. (Maybe Zinas trousers polution of elk hairs....?)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 03:49:55 PM
In the picture we can see a Zinas injuries.

She has wound on the right back side - kidneys. The place which is polluted by "grass" (elks hairs).
The analyzated print in picture is according my opinion also Zinas.

Radim

(https://i.ibb.co/PzC5Vbs/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-autopsy-report.png)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 03:55:17 PM
The face injuries (brushes) and injured fingers are probably act of covering the face front elks hoof.

Check the video of old man deadly attacked by elk - the same situation:
He is trying to escape, when the elk hit him from back side, the man is turning from belly side to back side and the elk is repeatedly stomping at him.
This guy also tries to fight by hand fight with elk.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
I think we have just solved a substantial part of this mystery.

ELK, ELK, ELK
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 09, 2019, 04:20:25 PM
Lets continue in our elk/elks theory.

Zina was relatively OK after attack than others - she was able to movement according the autopsy picture. She has any injuries which could block her walk.
In my opinion it is the reason of movement to tent for clothes, aid, maybe food with Djatlov and other guy. (2nd Support group - refer the first article in elk/elks theory).

Tommorow I will try to analyze the injuries of Dyatlavov and next guy in slope. If they will be movent able to - than it can forced our theory.

"99" (Good night)

Radim
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 08:25:59 PM
 bang1
I wonder how people jump so fast on conclusions when they are new to the case... I remember how when I first read about this case in wikipedia i was like - oh this is so clear it is a bear...  Reading more and more if you are a clever person you stop repeating bear,bear,bear or in your case - elk,elk,elk... There is a guy with a wolverine too. And all the people married to a theory can fit the "evidences" to work for their theory.. Because the case miss crucial files due to unprofessionals or intended secrecy. With this case you can "fit" the photos and present facts even with a theory about shark attack, believe me. I just don't have the time to write you an example.
Those things in your blue circles are just deformations in the snow that happen on every wind blown slope, usually from small hard pieces of icy snow blown from the wind hitting the surface and leaving a slightly visible hole. How could a person of 60 kg leave such a deep track, but 400kg elk will only scratch the surface of the snow sooo slightly almost invisible???
Photos from the case are so poor quality that nobody could say what it is in the small details. Some people  are seeing Mansis in the bushes,others claim to see UFOs or grey aliens... I could say that things on zinas pants are bread crusts from the tent and will be equal wrong as you with your hairs.
Don't get me wrong, i don't want to sound rude  but i do believe that smart people are not hard sure , but are always doubtful and perceptive ,especially discussing this case. People with professional knowledge from nowadays like pathologists , investigators , physicians, etc,etc  are looking for years in this case and have no firm answer, only hypothesis ,so you and me can't solve it from several fast conclusions. Hope you got what I mean and I mean it in a friendly manner🖤
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 03:38:41 AM
Hello Ethnisba,
thank you for your point. According your answer you dont have to feel rude  wink1 .
Because you spent a time with large, logical answer.
However, very smart people have one vices. They are looking for complexities in vain and it is the reason why they are often unable to make decisions efficiently.

In 2015 during 3 weeks - intensive MPSO training I have led the lessons of Multinational military students in area of "Ground signs awarenes" ( I will try to add in attachement one of powerpoint lesson).

I remember my first lesson with my students, when I prepared before lesson a square area of 10 x 10meters where I put different types of ground signs. (Snow, mud, grass footprints without bergen, footprints with 40 kgs bergen on backs, print of bergen again in snow, grass, mud. Broken boughs, left smoked cigarette, snow flattening of body who lay 10 seconds in snow, 15 minutes in snow, weapon snow flattening running footprints in snow, mud, grass, etc, etc, etc..

When the students firstly stand in front of my miniature 10*10m training ground I asked my students: " What do you see?" They just baldly answered to me: "Footprints..."   After 3 weeks of training for example they were available to find a burried command wire of explosives or camouflaged hand granade inside the root of tree. As you know they never could to see a burried wire or granade by eyes. They found it because of ground signs. Somebody had to go there, to install the items there. Somebody who makes it everytime left some activity signs. You need to take in mind every detail. Your eyes must scanning the scenary from left side to right side, not contra...etc, etc. It is very long time issue.

However to read the footprints is the eliminary base of every recco scout and the snowprints are the easiest basics. If you cannot read a footprints in snow, than probaly you will never be able to find a burried command wire in summer grass. If you will not find a burried command wire in Afghanistan during patrol, then you and your teammates will be probably wound or die because of initialized explosive device. Without any high-tech equipment, just by sences and skills.

Yet it all, in 2012 we missed some ground awarness signs during the patrol nearby the Puli-Alam and my vehicle has been blowed by IED. We just made a mistake because we overlooked some signs. After iincident we made analyzation of are and the signs were very very noticeable and visible.  we overlooked even though we were careful and we were masters in IED searching.

I think I'm not some deranged guy with screams in this forum. My theory is based on visuals and materials which are available.
If somebody will try to say me  that the marks in blue borders are not animals, than I have to say NO! and my reasoning is based on my experiences.
If somebody will try to say me that the pollution on Zinas trousers are from grass, than I have to say no (unless she sit on cactus).

When I started to think about Dyatlavov  expedition pass, I started from one factor - Zolotaryev. My starting mind were: "How could an Sovie elite soldier who survived WWII with probably very good skills in bushcraft died for hypotermy in mountines together with other 8 hikers??". His minds could be quite similar like mine. In my opinion they dont wanted to push the elk/els for whole 1500m to cedar. No, they probably wanted to push him out of the tent max. 500 meters of close tent range. Then go back to tent. But the elk could broken their line formation and started to push them to cedar. The situation could turned.

According your point of prints - lay flattenings of fight could not be spotted by searchers because of thin flattening snow print. All lay body snow prints were earased by wind and by "time". Dyatlov, Zina and thirdone in slope were covered by snow and they were not visible for first time. However the weather was stable, the lay flattenings (fighting flattening prints) were already covered by snow.
Stayed just deep prints - footprints. Elks and humans.

Elk has 4 hooves.
Circa 500/4= 125 kgs per feet. Standing (calm position)
Elks movement = 500/3  = 166 kgs per feet.

Human has 2 feets.
Circa 90/2 = 45 kgs per feet.  Standing (calm position)
Human movement 90/1  - = 90 kgs per feet. A little less because of shear friction)
Human run movement 90/1 + something = could be circa 100 and above kgs per feet because of higher step high.
 
It can explain why the prints in picture above has a similar deepness.

So after that I tried to understand their movement from tent to cedar. Confused "line formation = combat formation" If we were under fire during exercises, and situation allowed to dominate our team force, than at the most of situations we used a line formation. If the enemy was stronger than our team, than we just tried to push out of enemy.
You will never lead your team in "column formation" in case of front treat. This shard uncovered me another, another, and another. I did not know at first that it was caused by elk/elks. No.

Elk is just a summary of my equation. On my mind this "mystery" is a set of 2 equations of one unknown and I think that the "x" has been calculated. The rest are just maths procedures. - they just frozen.
This "mathematic" process is very difucult because of inaccurate assignment. (very poor inspection and documenting of crime scene by searching teams - students, some milicioners, etc..)
Nowaday this "mystery" will be probably solved very fastly by presence of professional criminals technics.

I think Im open to spread all other theories of UFO, Military tests, Gulag killers, Infrasounds, and etc shits.  Including professional scientific rhetoricians by 1 short question for each other theory.

 
I just say that it was elk/elks. (My opinion).


The attachement in powerpoint is not possible to add. In case of interest I can send via mail.



Radim
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Clacon on April 10, 2019, 12:49:28 PM
I was reading up on elk, but unfortunately, most of the info is pertaining to North American elk.

They say attacks generally occur during mating season by males or by females with calves. Mating season in North America occurs Aug - Oct I think....do you know what months they mate in Russia?? I am hoping its around about Jan/Feb - March/April for obvious reasons.

I don't know....this could be a pretty good explanation - maybe for the Ravine 4 deaths (although I would expect to see more bruising) or for what spooked them out of the tent that night??
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Hello Clacon,
I confirm your elks mating season. (Aug-Oct).
But, In January/February they could have 6-9 month old broods.

I think it is not much important fact, because every animal can attack everytime. - not only in mating season.
So it is hard to say.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 10, 2019, 01:21:47 PM
Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 01:49:15 PM
Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.

Very very good point Ehtnisba.
The problem with elks (globally deer animals)  and human footprints is that the human footprint is continual with larger surface. Especially in boots, especially with tears of fabric rounded on feets....(what is more probably than boots in our case) Elk has splited  footprint for two horns. It can caused a different decomposion by "time". Diferent light.
 Also take in mind the bad quality of photo.

However the width of elks print fits.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Clacon on April 10, 2019, 01:54:13 PM
Hi Radim,

I think it's important bc I don't usually think of animals that are prey - vegetarian grazers - going on the rampage and charging trampling and kicking humans minding their own business in a tent, often.

They should technically only do it when territorial (mating season - the males attack) or when they think their young may be under threat (the females), and this corresponds to times of year.

I think if it was an elk attack, it was likely by females protecting their young.

As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 10, 2019, 02:00:21 PM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 

(https://i.ibb.co/Khpy2Zz/zina.jpg)


We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 10, 2019, 02:02:58 PM
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.

So what arent we seeing dozens of such 'Animal Prints' in the Snow  !  ? 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 10, 2019, 02:05:17 PM
I think we have just solved a substantial part of this mystery.

ELK, ELK, ELK

I think not. This is pure speculation, and no proof whatsoever that there are Elk Hairs or Prints.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 10, 2019, 02:09:14 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
Hi Radim,
Your explanation is very interesting. Only that for footprints what I wanted to ask is not that human and elk are similar depth,but that elk's are much more lighter than human's. In this photo,the tracks you have circles as elk are really shallow compared.to the human one that is way deeper.

Very very good point Ehtnisba.
The problem with elks (globally deer animals)  and human footprints is that the human footprint is continual with larger surface. Especially in boots, especially with tears of fabric rounded on feets....(what is more probably than boots in our case) Elk has splited  footprint for two horns. It can caused a different decomposion by "time". Diferent light.
 Also take in mind the bad quality of photo.

However the width of elks print fits.

Also také in mind unpredictable refraction of light on Picture.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:15:51 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.

Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:22:47 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.



Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

When I was in military and we have to made the psychologist tests, we also made a "rorszach" test everytime.
Military psychologist recognized besides according "Rorszach test" our maturity, rationality and retreats. (Maybe other things). Who criticaly failed this test then he usually was not admitted in recco team.

Try to see at this pictures and tell me what do you see...



I will try to describe the pictures according my
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:28:37 PM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 
(https://i.ibb.co/Khpy2Zz/zina.jpg)


We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.

In autopsy there are any known points of clothes recognization of any Dyatlavov pass member. I think this job is for criminalist technic. (Who was not presented at place).
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
Hi Radim,

I think it's important bc I don't usually think of animals that are prey - vegetarian grazers - going on the rampage and charging trampling and kicking humans minding their own business in a tent, often.

They should technically only do it when territorial (mating season - the males attack) or when they think their young may be under threat (the females), and this corresponds to times of year.

I think if it was an elk attack, it was likely by females protecting their young.

As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.

Every animal can attack everytime in case of treat fell.
Check the video on first page. (I dont suppose the mating season because of snow presence). This elk in video just got between people and started to be agressive..because of treat fell (My opinion)

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 02:53:08 PM


As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.
[/quote]

I dont know - Im not coroner.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 03:58:27 PM
Ok, I have made an analyze of pictures.
However I would like to know your opinion before I confirm my "theory".
Because this probably will be the revolution view of Dyatlavov pass  bang1



Are you ready ?

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
….because the scenario of pictures is very very scared…..
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 04:05:01 PM
and the guy who made this pictures had a very very strong will…..
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 05:38:39 PM
Picture
Cameraman is also flashlight holder.


no 1) Flashlight is heading front to camera. Visible lens scratches. Three fingers down of photo. (black objects) - Just a panic photo.

no 2) Laying person on his/her right side.Scrumbled possition. Face is well visibled. Face is looking to cameraman. Distance from cameraman - circa 4,5m

no 3) Scrumbled person turned to left side from very close distance of cameraman. On the picture we can see a backs of person. Distance from cameraman - circa 1,5m.

no 4) Two person - Standing and layed .Standing body is inclined to laying body. Coat overlap on standing body is presented. Diagonal line from 1/3 left to 1/3 right corner presented - footprinted path. Around this bodies are spotted next 3 white dots - probably hikers or very deep prints. Well presented a fingerprint on camera len.

no 5) NO idea

no 6) Flashlight is shinig to 2 moving persons heading to cameraman. The shining black object in right down corner is a flat shape flashlight. One person is carring in arms another person. Wound person is holding rescuers kneck or the wounded is carring on rescuers backs. Diagonal edge (snow footprint path) is still presented. Persons from picture no 4.


no 7) Panic photo - same situation like picture no 1)

no 8) Elks left horn circa 1m from cameraman. Fingertprint on lent again presented. High grass presented.


no 9) Picture returned to 180 degrees. Flashlight is shining to air. Flashlight is laying on hard ice surface. Light scattering effect on ice surface. Bushes or high grass presented.

no 10) Two people. One is trying to lift second one to A/B position (refer the A/B transport position). Diagonal edge is not presented. Probably was the photo catched from kontra side than no 4 and 6.


no 11) NO idea.

(https://i.ibb.co/9sBfSLN/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J58bg4K)

(https://i.ibb.co/s1SJpt0/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/f4JpvKc/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FgpwVfP)

(https://i.ibb.co/VqFkcGB/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3CxP9bh)

(https://i.ibb.co/QjzrtqJ/5.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/JRpdFmv/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXmx75t)

(https://i.ibb.co/MnNdNNK/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XXJHJJ6)

(https://i.ibb.co/HDSSJ0m/8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hR66qkp)

(https://i.ibb.co/cYrJfyd/9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sWVjxgr)

(https://i.ibb.co/hf2Gbp6/10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jR3Cm7N)

(https://i.ibb.co/pxNZn2P/11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9NB2Gnv)

dice web (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 05:44:30 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/5jC12f1/vyprostovani.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 05:48:58 PM
just a very quick analyze.

"99" - Good night
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 10, 2019, 05:59:59 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/VS5Qz8j/image108.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)


No  6
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 12:43:44 AM
If there is an interest in racional explanation of Dyatlovov pass, then I would like to give a talk with official russians (nowaday) investigators who are working on it at this time. I have some tips to be recognized...
Especially I would like to talk with forensis technics and Dyatlavov comunity representative who is carring their founded things.

My phone:
+420777117200

Have a nice day.

Radim
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 01:56:27 AM
Correction of photo 7 (panic photo)

Visible black dark edges of elks body whitch is moving by side movement. Distance from cameraman - max. 2meters.
Cameraman has outstretched hand with flashlight. Hand is heading to elk.

The flashlight is heading partly in air, partly in way to cameraman.


Somebody who can, make the inversions of this photos!
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:24:32 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/prTwP00/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/41qmWnG/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bb0W1MZ)

(https://i.ibb.co/k0y2Dh0/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HY2TPrY)

(https://i.ibb.co/VgPgyDs/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ycqc98x)

(https://i.ibb.co/W0WQrXP/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXb9Q10)

(https://i.ibb.co/TgtCRWr/8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/71K9Vkb)

(https://i.ibb.co/mFJmDj9/9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6JY2nMH)

upload (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/mFJmDj9/9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6JY2nMH)

(https://i.ibb.co/kBLZ5FC/10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nmXp6SJ)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:25:28 AM
very fast sketch
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Morski on April 11, 2019, 02:49:27 AM
That is tons of imagination, Radim  vroom1
What bothers me, elks or no elks, is why would someone just take the time to make photos in the middle of the night, in what seems to be a dire situation?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Teddy on April 11, 2019, 03:05:54 AM
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov), besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-02.png)   (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-06.png)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:11:16 AM
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov), besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.



(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-02.png)   (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-06.png)

Teddy,
sorry to say that, but your point is absolutely out of point. If you will make a picture from 100 m distance of Eifel tower, than you will try to say me that it is 1 cm width??

Im sorry to say again. But I will not reply for silly points.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 11, 2019, 03:12:20 AM
The thing you have circled as a flashlight is the side square hole in the film . These photos are fragments which are only very small piece from the whole photo, the holes of the film are given for comparison. So said photos are actually 4-5mm as size. Your flashlight is one if those small holes, and two persons are less than 1mm ,which means very far, and if so far how come the light of the flashlight reached them...

(https://i.ibb.co/yyR4gGd/FILM-PH-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsnJmX7)



(https://i.ibb.co/TwvdWmf/6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S6sGfRj)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 11, 2019, 03:20:22 AM
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:24:02 AM
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Yes, I see...you have a true.
This is not flashlight but the hole in film negative.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:29:31 AM
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Is possible that the visibility of objects is caused by invert color agains the backround?
How will look a photo at night, if somebody will be polluted by snow and will be flash by flashlight from any distance..?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:34:00 AM
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Is possible that the visibility of objects is caused by invert color agains the backround?
How will look a photo at night, if somebody will be polluted by snow and will be flash by flashlight from any distance..?


I guess you are photogrraph so it is the reason why I ask you.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:37:27 AM
Can be also possible that this pictures are already editored? Or you think this pictures are originals?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:53:49 AM
That is tons of imagination, Radim  vroom1
What bothers me, elks or no elks, is why would someone just take the time to make photos in the middle of the night, in what seems to be a dire situation?

Hard to say, every human is different, im not a psychologist.
People are able to makes photos during dire situations also.

maybe?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Qj9K_eJJE
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Morski on April 11, 2019, 04:27:27 AM
It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time. 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 04:34:52 AM
It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time.

thank you for your point.
 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 05:54:31 AM
Correction of 11) no idea:

In left part and right part I see a print, behind the white scratch is some pile.

It can disprove previous pictures with white scratches..
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 06:03:43 AM
Corection of No 6)
Dark object behind the white scratch.

White light points will really be just a scratches on film negative
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 11, 2019, 07:17:20 AM
Oh, no i am not at all a photographer. Only saying that objects are really really small and thus must be very far in distance. What I wonder is ,is it possible a flashlight to reach an object that is too far in the distance. Usually normal flashlights don't reach very far . So if anyone know lets say.
Those photos were examined by Yakimenko ,I think, and he supposes those are lightening objects in the sky,emitting their own light and very far from the spectacular .
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 07:58:25 AM
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Thank you for your point.
I quite like your thought processes...

Do you think if the film negative face for longer time to humidity, can it make "some" edge surface which could highlight some certain shapes  which could normally stay overshadowed?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 11, 2019, 08:37:03 AM
Photos turned in negatives:

(https://i.ibb.co/V9TSQRy/IMG-20190411-183444.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XLts31B)

(https://i.ibb.co/zbg3wk5/IMG-20190411-183433.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TRGQ5CT)

(https://i.ibb.co/tb72jR3/IMG-20190411-183422.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ytzdngb)

(https://i.ibb.co/ZL5v1YL/IMG-20190411-183404.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tmgnPxm)

(https://i.ibb.co/3CR5Nzj/IMG-20190411-183332.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1mzYq6P)

(https://i.ibb.co/4N7tB6m/IMG-20190411-183321.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mzGTQLD)

(https://i.ibb.co/M6Q2fzH/IMG-20190411-183309.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/0mQvMQw/IMG-20190411-183254.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8NXt5Xh)

(https://i.ibb.co/Xs2Bsns/IMG-20190411-183242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jM6KMCM)

(https://i.ibb.co/dQk0PYj/IMG-20190411-183229.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/vqggfZ7/IMG-20190411-183210.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0TTq4C)

random coin flip generator (https://freeonlinedice.com/)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 09:00:04 AM
Photos turned in negatives:


Thank you very very much. I very appreciate.


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/NNjkw8m/Bez-n-zvu.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gWTXs5P)

This is picture no 7)

Sorry for bad quality - I cannot work with Corell draw so efectively.

However, I changed just some fades, buzz, etc.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 10:46:45 AM
maybe Im a little bit mental destroyed :)
But I see there elk.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 10:54:27 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/6ZpCvy7/elk.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zTmgSd)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 11:16:44 AM
Question:
Had Zolotaryov front or especially right part of torso wounds? Why right? Because of following picture of horn
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.

Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

What is that supposed to mean  ! ?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.



Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

When I was in military and we have to made the psychologist tests, we also made a "rorszach" test everytime.
Military psychologist recognized besides according "Rorszach test" our maturity, rationality and retreats. (Maybe other things). Who criticaly failed this test then he usually was not admitted in recco team.

Try to see at this pictures and tell me what do you see...



I will try to describe the pictures according my

I see photos that have been ENLARGED.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:43:27 PM
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 
(https://i.ibb.co/Khpy2Zz/zina.jpg)


We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.

In autopsy there are any known points of clothes recognization of any Dyatlavov pass member. I think this job is for criminalist technic. (Who was not presented at place).
 


Not sure what you mean here  !  ?  I put it that if an Elk caused such internal injuries we would also see plenty of external injuries on the same bodies, ie, broken skin and muscle damage.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:45:39 PM


As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.

I dont know - Im not coroner.
[/quote]

I find it difficult to believe that there was no skin or muscle damage after an alleged attack by an ELK.  !  ? 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:48:48 PM
Picture
Cameraman is also flashlight holder.


no 1) Flashlight is heading front to camera. Visible lens scratches. Three fingers down of photo. (black objects) - Just a panic photo.

no 2) Laying person on his/her right side.Scrumbled possition. Face is well visibled. Face is looking to cameraman. Distance from cameraman - circa 4,5m

no 3) Scrumbled person turned to left side from very close distance of cameraman. On the picture we can see a backs of person. Distance from cameraman - circa 1,5m.

no 4) Two person - Standing and layed .Standing body is inclined to laying body. Coat overlap on standing body is presented. Diagonal line from 1/3 left to 1/3 right corner presented - footprinted path. Around this bodies are spotted next 3 white dots - probably hikers or very deep prints. Well presented a fingerprint on camera len.

no 5) NO idea

no 6) Flashlight is shinig to 2 moving persons heading to cameraman. The shining black object in right down corner is a flat shape flashlight. One person is carring in arms another person. Wound person is holding rescuers kneck or the wounded is carring on rescuers backs. Diagonal edge (snow footprint path) is still presented. Persons from picture no 4.


no 7) Panic photo - same situation like picture no 1)

no 8) Elks left horn circa 1m from cameraman. Fingertprint on lent again presented. High grass presented.


no 9) Picture returned to 180 degrees. Flashlight is shining to air. Flashlight is laying on hard ice surface. Light scattering effect on ice surface. Bushes or high grass presented.

no 10) Two people. One is trying to lift second one to A/B position (refer the A/B transport position). Diagonal edge is not presented. Probably was the photo catched from kontra side than no 4 and 6.


no 11) NO idea.

A very vivid imagination.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:50:51 PM




Even more vivid imagination.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov), besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.



(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-02.png)   (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Zolotaryov-camera-06.png)

Teddy,
sorry to say that, but your point is absolutely out of point. If you will make a picture from 100 m distance of Eifel tower, than you will try to say me that it is 1 cm width??

Im sorry to say again. But I will not reply for silly points.


Teddy has made a very sensible statement.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:55:01 PM
It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time.

Definitely more likely to be damage to film caused in whatever way.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 12:57:43 PM
maybe Im a little bit mental destroyed :)
But I see there elk.

Extremely vivid imagination. I dont see any thing out of the ordinary. I see potential film damage.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 01:34:54 PM
O:)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 01:36:07 PM
Sarapuk - Lost time for me.

Nextone
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:06:42 PM
In all of posts there are only three people who were acquisition for me.
Ehtnisba and hardheaded Teddy, because of their disprove point of flashlight in one of our pictures.
And Морски  who told us that was 42% of Moon visibility - good light conditions. Based on Морски point I decided to edit the photos in Corell draw.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:12:01 PM
Question:
Had Zolotaryov front or especially right part of torso wounds? Why right? Because of following picture of horn

I will make ownanswer because nobody is probably to make the answer:
Yes I think the running elk who was hit him from front side, could caused thease wounds according Zolotaryov pictures..

Or not?
Go and break this point.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:13:04 PM

[/quote]
(https://i.ibb.co/MN5NzPb/Semyon-Zolotaryov-autopsy-report.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:37:21 PM
Sarapuk,
do you know what is this from the crime scene area?
(https://i.ibb.co/ftzS1Tt/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6b7Znqb)

I will rather give ownanswer.
.......the elks horns  dunno1
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 11, 2019, 04:06:54 PM
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=399.0
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 04:15:15 PM
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Yes, from this topic I took the picture.
Im concered to "rorszach test" for Sarapuk - maybe he see only the branches and he probably dont see the horns.

Maybe the psychologist could replace the "rorszach test" by "dyatlavov test" (Which is in my opinion much easier than "Rorszachs")
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 03:02:07 AM
Picture no3 correction (laying body)

(https://i.ibb.co/WG8hL6D/Bez-n-zvu-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7jMfqXg)


(https://i.ibb.co/PxBWmCF/Bez-n-zvu-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b1pvWdQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/qN1Zt8x/Bez-n-zvu-22.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jy4pcYH)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 03:03:56 AM
original:

(https://i.ibb.co/pRZf3fw/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Nmp9L9C)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 12, 2019, 03:51:00 AM


Nobody says there are no elks in Urals.... There are bears, foxes, deer, mice ,wolverines too.. But what the animal kingdom has to do with the tragedy?
This is a mansi chum, it is explained what it is in the topic under the photo if you read it. This is a place where reindeer is killed or sacrifised . Mansi build those chums including the antlers of the killed deer. And the antlers used in the said chum are moose antlers, not elks by the way:


upload images (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Morski on April 12, 2019, 03:59:43 AM
In all of posts there are only three people who were acquisition for me.
Ehtnisba and hardheaded Teddy, because of their disprove point of flashlight in one of our pictures.
And Морски  who told us that was 42% of Moon visibility - good light conditions. Based on Морски point I decided to edit the photos in Corell draw.

Hi again, Radim.
Both Teddy (why hardheaded, she just explained a fact?!) and Ehtnisba stressed on that same fact, that you are looking at a very small fractions of the entire frame. You know, that your interpretation of the strange lines and shapes do not represent a whole frame, and so - not a whole photo. That is the reason why we can question your interpretation of seeing elks or bodies.
As for my argument about the moon, I mean that it was relatively dark, of course not so dark, that Dyatlovs group was not able to see, because they can get used to the darkness, but too dark to make photos with the Zorky camera without a good additional source of light. If we stick to the elk theory, and the possibility that someone was actually photoing the animals, that means that he must have used flashlight to focus on the animals or bodies, which I find hard to imagine given the context.
And so I think that most of the photos are the result of damaged film. On the other hand, your theory about surprising attack sounds plausible, but we can argue if it was performed by animals or humans :)

Regards 
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 04:48:19 AM
On the pictures there is something. They were taken. It is not just a damaged film. And I cannot see any reason why one person can make pictures and make pictures in one time.

I see there an elk and I would like to know if somebody will say what he see at this pictures something. Everybody has some imagination and must be able to describe something what see.
If I will want to make photo of criminal I doubt he will not let me immortalize him in photo when I will mark him by flashlight. And after all he will let the camera at place... HOwever some criminals has freezing inteligence status so it is also possible.

Im open if somebody will give me a facts which make sence to say: "Ok, It could be a Gulag killer, or UFO" But my problem is, that every, and every mentioned theory I can break in a minute.
Just not the elks.


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 04:54:51 AM
And you can trust me, if you will say that on the picture is a man carring a gun and I will recognize it from pictures, than I will not say: "No, it is elk!"
No...

I will just say "Ok, I see also, lets go and think about new theory"
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: gypsy on April 12, 2019, 05:20:55 AM
And you can trust me, if you will say that on the picture is a man carring a gun and I will recognize it from pictures, than I will not say: "No, it is elk!"
No...

I will just say "Ok, I see also, lets go and think about new theory"

The picture you are referring to is a small part of frame on the side so completely out of focus. It is not anything the person with camera was looking at directly. I am afraid it is impossible to say sure without original negatives considering the relatively poor quality of the pictures. Still the Elk attack is possible along with other possibilities.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Morski on April 12, 2019, 05:23:11 AM
There is something, that is obvious, and that is the defected film. I fail to understand why are you still referring to a tiny fragment of a very small frame of a film from a 1950s camera, and how can this prove anything? Especially if we only use imagination to see anything from those frames. People tend to see what fits their perceptions and ideas. That makes me think, that imagination is not enough from a practical point of view. Even the Yeti photo looks more convincing (im joking of course). And saying, that you can break all other theories in a minute is a bald statement, especially when your own theory is based on a few badly visible hoofs in the snow on just one photo, and some dirty pants, where you claim to see hairs from elk. Everything else is pure speculation, which we see more or less in any other theory.
I don`t see how yours is more relevant by any means. But anyway. Good luck, Radim!
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 07:52:14 AM
You've probably only captured text and initial thought from that theory.


The primary point of my interest in this matter was not the death of a nine-member group. I'll be honest with you, but those students are not interesting for me. I was interested since begin in Zolotaryev ... Analysis of what he did or didn't do right.

Now I'll be a little open to you. Maybe it will help someone to understand this theory better.

Zolotaryov was an SOF scaut, just like me who fought in the war, just like me. And he survived war, just like me. Of course, Zolotaryov fought in a much more challenging and difficult war than Afghanistan and he had to be much more experienced than any modern SOF scout or me.

SOF scouts are a bit different people, but I don't want to demonize them. But be honest with yourself.

SOF Scouts are people who are selected by a specific personality and psychological profile. In most cases, these guys are unreadable introverts. But very friendly and decent/polite. On the other hand, they are people who can change their personality and aggression very quickly according the situation. They are very adaptable people. "From angel can became a killing machine".

They are people who have to be able to adapt very quickly and evaluate the situation. They are people who must be highly intelligent.
Its based on fact of working in small groups of 2-4 people for a long time without any logistical or combat security. They must rely solely on themselves. They are people who are usually not afraid of nature and natural phenomena, nor are they afraid of people.

They are people who must be able to quickly break out of contact or destroy an enemy in the event of a combat contact with a mechanized platoon (about 20-30 soldiers). Yes 2-4 soldiers against 20-30 ordinary soldiers. SOF Scouts are the elite of every ground army, and their activity for the enemy always means concern. Because to eliminate SOF scaut is always a little bit difficult than eliminate common combat soldier especially of common-civilian people.

In history, such small groups were able to destroy entire mechanized companies by ambush in a very short time. It is due to their profile from which everything unfolds.

SOF Scouts are very bright and attentive people, as information collection is their mission. Sometimes I think that life-mission. They are simply inquisitive and therefore, in my opinion, Zolotaryov has taken pictures during the accident. And I admit that although I would never want to suffer the situation like him, and I would have the chance, then I would probably also take pictures. Since his personality profile is likely to be similar to mine.

SOF Scouts are people who perceive death situations and wounds situations differently than ordinary - civilian people. Because they even saw that death. And Zolotaryov must have seen death in the past. And probably he also caused death to somebody - to German soldier. SOF scouts are specific to their humor (especially black humor).

It is not important if you are a scout from the USA, Russia, Bulgaria or Germany, you will always have a very similar psychological profile. In other words, you will think similarly if not the same way. Does not matter if you are a Scout in 1940 or a modern scout. The basis of SOF scout is hidden movement in nature with information collecting combat tasks. And nature has not changed in the last few thousand years.

Being a SOF Scout means going through a tough psychological selection. The score in our army was often 2: 207, and it was still from already combat soldier pre-selection. This means that the chance that a civilian will become a SOF Scout only by a psychological profile is about 1: 600. Maybe (circa). And that's not to mention the hellish physical selection process. Then I can say that Scout will became every 1: 700-800 civilian. If someone goes through the psychological profile of the SOF Scout, then it is more probably that his mind power will force him to overcome the physical pain in the selection process. That is why ithe score is higher. That's why I mentioned also the Rorszach test here and my arrogant allusions to Sarapuk.

Zolotaryov in my opinion really photographed elk and freeze as the last. Zolotaryov was the one who decided and built the base nearby the cedar. He pulled down 75m deeper into the forest for just because of safety. - typical scout decision - never stay at the edge of the forest. Hide yourself! A normal man would settle down and burrow near the cedar, especially when they were already spreading fire. Zolotaryev was the best dressed! Just because of his calm in this situation. Zolotaryov thougs were racional like an every SOF scout.

I come to my theory only by analyzing Zolotaryov's behavior, which, as I say, was very similar to my or other SOF scout.

I will not call it as "Dyatlavov expedition", but "Zolotaryevs expedion" . Zolotaryov was the strongest and most experienced article of the whole expedition, who gave orders at a critical moments. Dyatlavov was just a 23? years old guy with any life experiences, the same like other students.

On the first picture is me (modern scout), on the second scout from 1940 :)
Btw. the baby in the photo is not mine: D

You can see on pictures that for 70 years is everything the same.   loco1 bat1
(https://i.ibb.co/5FbRf8P/11400994-10203887740022113-6701409727785653018-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3zgCLNn)

(https://i.ibb.co/5FbRf8P/11400994-10203887740022113-6701409727785653018-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3zgCLNn)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: gypsy on April 12, 2019, 08:03:57 AM

Zolotaryov in my opinion really photographed elk and freeze as the last. Zolotaryov was the one who decided and built the base nearby the cedar. He pulled down 75m deeper into the forest for just because of safety. - typical scout decision - never stay at the edge of the forest. Hide yourself! A normal man would settle down and burrow near the cedar, especially when they were already spreading fire. Zolotaryev was the best dressed! Just because of his calm in this situation. Zolotaryov thougs were racional like an every SOF scout.


If Semyon indeed photographed an elk, wouldn't it be in the middle of the picture rather than on the edge of the photo film, out of focus and not in the place of direct light from the lens?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:24:39 AM

Zolotaryov in my opinion really photographed elk and freeze as the last. Zolotaryov was the one who decided and built the base nearby the cedar. He pulled down 75m deeper into the forest for just because of safety. - typical scout decision - never stay at the edge of the forest. Hide yourself! A normal man would settle down and burrow near the cedar, especially when they were already spreading fire. Zolotaryev was the best dressed! Just because of his calm in this situation. Zolotaryov thougs were racional like an every SOF scout.


If Semyon indeed photographed an elk, wouldn't it be in the middle of the picture rather than on the edge of the photo film, out of focus and not in the place of direct light from the lens?

It is hard to say. You can be lucky and you can catch the object directly in the middle. Also of running or flying object.
It is not important point for me.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:31:16 AM
Do you really all of you think that picture no 8) "Horn"
is just a destroyed film negative?

You really dont see there anything suspicious?

Please tell me at least somebody you see there something. (UFO, grenade, train, aircraft, building, etc, does not matter, but something)
damn!
but dont tell me that it is just a destroyed film negative without any scenario.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:34:19 AM
Watch for all the things as a global. Not as a part.
Also in your life, not only in Dyatlavov topics.


Use your inteligence. Use your minds.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:37:57 AM
On two pictures are repeated diagonal shapes.

It is very unlikely that this is caused by film damage.

You really dont understand the objects connections?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 08:44:05 AM
I really start to think that I will not continue in this theory, because we are not on the "same way".

Will be better, when I'll leave this theory to myself. Just in my minds.

I uncrypt the rest of those photos and put together the axis of their move.
But it makes no sense to publish it, especially here.

It would be better if you stayed in your locked thoughts.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 09:04:20 AM
By the way, have you catched some similar face body parts between modern scout and Soviet 1940 scout?
.....the same shapes of nose  lol2

probably also bodies constitutions will be similar :D  thumb1
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 10:29:38 AM
Maybe one of my last post on this theory, but I'll try to describe how I would probably react in this situation as a SOF scout.
Although I neglect one important input factor and that is hypothermia. On the other hand, I've experienced a lot. I have successfully completed the most dificult course in the army - KOMANDO course,  where you suffer  states while you are walking and sleeping at one time. And when you have to make decisions incondition. I know how it feels to tie for 15 minutes the ties of shoe when the weather is - 27 Celsius degree.

"I take a rest in a tent, this day was quite shitty." We are chatting about Yeti, etc, etc. "Zina is making notes in their adolescent magazine, JESUS! " A spooky atmosphere is present. One of us go to pie. Ouch! From outside we listen "Fuck!Fuck! Fuck there is something!  Something stomped on my tent and everyone starts to panic ... I'll wait in the tent before the others left out of the tent. Meanwhile, I'm putting on my shoes, putting on some clothes, if I don't, I'll take it with me. Where is my flashlight? I left the tent out  probably the last because if there is something, than I have a better chance to survive, because it will take a care firstly with my "friends".  It gives me some time for risk evaluation. "Ohh... I dont want to say my friends, we just met couple days ago."

I left the tent and I analyze the quite chaotic scenario. I see 8 jumping students around the tent and standing elk. Elk is standing and watching. "Hmmm it is not good" I will try to calm the resulting confusion. I will begin to guide the 20-year-old confused students. "Make a line!", "go there, you go there, you stand here, go closer to each other". I will try to form a line combat formation, which I think could be effective for this situation. The elk is standing, watching us and looks he dont want to leave. I will turn around I start to think where to cover.

I see anything, just down of the hill I see the forrest and I know that there is a forest. As soon as I succeed in short time, I will challenge the students with the voice "We'll push him out, let's go."This will probably go on just for some time. I am thinking of pushing him away from the tent close are just till he leave, then going back and visually control the elk from the tent, because ""Those kids are not dressed!"" So we're pushing elk. Since I believe the elk will also be surprised, it goes some time. . And we are moving and moving. Elk continuosly run, stops, watching us....

"It is enough! Lets go back" But the elk suddenly stops and run into our line formation.  "Fuck, ****, ****!" I did not suppose.  He disrupts the line, runs through the lineup, and suddenly he pushes us down to (cedar). The cards has quickly changed.

I am still relatively probably warm, because I was best dressed. I have a camera on my neck, take off my glove and start taking pictures. Because I have never seen this huge elk with horns before. But elk starts to attack me as well. I throw to him what I can - "aaahhh a flashlight!" Probably not the camera, because I have it hanged to my neck. He knocks me down, breaks my ribs. It's not exactly OK for me. I will stand.

Elk treads the others in the lineup and starts the massacre. 2 boys start running and climbing the tree while others face repeated attacks on moose. But he probably only attacked me once. Because "Im SOF scaut and Im always lucky - creed" However I start to realize the risk. It's not "fun" anymore.

The elk runs into the forest after a few-minute attack. (To his natural safety). Two boys on the tree freeze up and put their hands in their mouths in order not to bite their tongues with chattering teeth. They are not able to climb from a height of 5 meters. All looks OK now. This crazy elk left. Adrenaline is gone.

"Jurij! Go down, the elk has left"
The boys are freezing on the tree and falling down. I'll evaluate the situation. How many are wounded and how much. I'll start thinking where to move, because I don't want to stay in the incident place. We will go back to the crowd and start to solve the situation all together as follows: "

"You and you can walk, go for the wood, try to warm the cedar boys". It doesn't work, they are dead. Dubina is dying. No more time to take care of cedar dead bodies. "Lets take their clothes off!"
"You and you and you are relatively in good shape, you can walk, go back to the tent, get your clothes, first aid kit for Dubinina. Go in the column formation.
I and the rest of group will pull down 70m in this direction, where we will build a base. When you go, let us know by voice. "Here we go! Good luck! Willy ho!!

I drag with my friend Dubinins dying body to the tiped place and everyone except Dubinina starts burrowing the shelter. When we dig it out, we stretch out some branches and create isolation. "
Where the hell the Igor is?"
We are still waitting for Igor to get the stuff. Then we make consultation what to do next. I will check the camera and make 1-2 pictures. ***** /////////read this point very well///////

So we wait and wait, Im starting to be tired every step hurts because of bumped ribs...... " Im trying to call the Igor, but with not effect. "The boy next to me is sleeping, he is dying, This blondie is leaving to heaven also...What about camera? Should I try to make some picture?" "Dammit it is real cold! I will try to go to cedar to check where are they." I cannot move well, because of my ribs. Im not able to make up scramble. My pain start to be paralyzing.

"How I could make this mistake I cannot get from ravine..."
"I forgot that Igor and other students are not strong like me, I overestimated their strenght.. I fall a sleep because Im tired of whole expedition movement and my ribs hurts....

"Mission failed"


This is my story.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
Just one point:

Also could happend that they choosed a bad place (stream area) because of night. And they digged quite deep.  They could just lie there but they were burried by snow.
But the initialization was: ELK(s) !

bye bye
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 12, 2019, 02:09:33 PM
Sarapuk,
do you know what is this from the crime scene area?
(https://i.ibb.co/ftzS1Tt/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6b7Znqb)

I will rather give ownanswer.
.......the elks horns  dunno1

Well they look like horns belonging to some animal, but it doesnt go any way to proving that such an animal was responsible for the demise of the Dyatlov Group.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Star man on April 12, 2019, 02:15:14 PM
But there were 9 hikers who had hatchets, ice axes and knives?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 02:21:18 PM
But there were 9 hikers who had hatchets, ice axes and knives?

Now you are too much clever on me..

Im not sure what do you mean...? Explain, please.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 02:23:02 PM
Sarapuk,
do you know what is this from the crime scene area?
(https://i.ibb.co/ftzS1Tt/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6b7Znqb)

I will rather give ownanswer.
.......the elks horns  dunno1


Well they look like horns belonging to some animal, but it doesnt go any way to proving that such an animal was responsible for the demise of the Dyatlov Group.


Good point Sarapuk, good point
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 12, 2019, 02:23:48 PM
Do you really all of you think that picture no 8) "Horn"
is just a destroyed film negative?

You really dont see there anything suspicious?

Please tell me at least somebody you see there something. (UFO, grenade, train, aircraft, building, etc, does not matter, but something)
damn!
but dont tell me that it is just a destroyed film negative without any scenario.

I know where you are coming from regarding this analysis. Thats fine, we need to look at all angles in this great Dyatlov Mystery. But we also need to be careful that just because we dont have much evidence to go on we start making things up. We start clutching at straws so to speak. Having used old black and white film and cameras from the 1950's and 1960's and also having developed and processed such film myself, I know what type of things can happen to such film. A lot of what I see in those photos reminds me of damaged or contaminated film etc.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 02:58:11 PM
Do you really all of you think that picture no 8) "Horn"
is just a destroyed film negative?


You really dont see there anything suspicious?

Please tell me at least somebody you see there something. (UFO, grenade, train, aircraft, building, etc, does not matter, but something)
damn!
but dont tell me that it is just a destroyed film negative without any scenario.

I know where you are coming from regarding this analysis. Thats fine, we need to look at all angles in this great Dyatlov Mystery. But we also need to be careful that just because we dont have much evidence to go on we start making things up. We start clutching at straws so to speak. Having used old black and white film and cameras from the 1950's and 1960's and also having developed and processed such film myself, I know what type of things can happen to such film. A lot of what I see in those photos reminds me of damaged or contaminated film etc.

Ok.. No problem.

Sarapuk - Idont know if somebody knows the Kuciak’s and his fioncee murdered case in Slovakia year and half month ago...
My theory since the beginning was that it had to make a soldier with quite good skills with weapons. But not perfect kills.
My theory based on wrong manipulation with pistol during gun jam.. I saw just saw an animations from scene, not real pictures.

That theory was of pistol jam which was equiped by silencer and the murder shoted the victim from very close distance to down side of head. Because of outlet pistol gas couldnt left the pistol effectively (because of victim skin) then he had a jam and murder started to fix the jam - presence of rounds at place.. etc, etc.. finally my decision was that it made some elite soldier or cop in retirement.. If I said to somebody.. everybody loughs to me :) “Radim you are crazy, it made a mafia” :) one year had to work international investigators work on it, then they confirmed theory...if somebody will listen me year ago, then the murder could be captured in weeks..

I feel that this “mystery” is the same.

Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 03:00:43 PM
Sorry to write like an idiot, but it is caused by iphone :)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 12, 2019, 03:12:37 PM
Because also the pistol with silencer is like 15 years old nice girl: “Sometimes she gives her body, sometines no” :)

99
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Star man on April 12, 2019, 05:41:24 PM
But there were 9 hikers who had hatchets, ice axes and knives?

Now you are too much clever on me..

Im not sure what do you mean...? Explain, please.

What I am saying is that an Elk is a big animal and capable of taking out people.  But in the tent there are axes and other items that could have been used as weapons to defend themselves against an animal attack.  The axes were just left in the tent.  Even if an elk was attacking one of them, the others could have grabbed a weapon and fought back.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 12, 2019, 10:43:13 PM


SOF Scouts are people who are selected by a specific personality and psychological profile. In most cases, these guys are unreadable introverts. But very friendly and decent/polite. On the other hand, they are people who can change their personality and aggression very quickly according the situation. They are very adaptable people. "From angel can became a killing machine".

From this description I must be a SOF scout too :))) joke aside




But why you keep referring to these " photos"   ,these are not photos but milimeters from a photo . How could a body or animal fit in 2mm of a frame. It could but would be 5 km away. We are not saying that Zolotaryov didn't make photos. Probably he did. I would too.
But you fail to understand that here you are not looking at actual photo. Let me try explain it with pictures:


(https://i.ibb.co/tPkmQKW/IMG-20190413-084046.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

This is the tiny fragment near the edge of the film you are looking at in these pictures. How could and animal ot body be visible there and why would anybody photographing something put it there out of focus and near the edge and so tiny???
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 12, 2019, 10:49:25 PM
Do you really all of you think that picture no 8) "Horn"
is just a destroyed film negative?

You really dont see there anything suspicious?

Please tell me at least somebody you see there something. (UFO, grenade, train, aircraft, building, etc, does not matter, but something)
damn!
but dont tell me that it is just a destroyed film negative without any scenario.

It is microscopic element , the guy that investigated those films used a MICROSCOPE  to find those tiny elements. So having in mind this horn is an object of 0.5 mm from the whole frame I can only imagine it is a lightening from a storm that is happening 100 km away from the photographer. But yeah only film damage is reasonable.
If we play a game of imagination I can say shark jaws,or teeth ,or bat wing ,or demon,or even batman ....
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 12, 2019, 10:55:00 PM
By the way, have you catched some similar face body parts between modern scout and Soviet 1940 scout?
.....the same shapes of nose  lol2

probably also bodies constitutions will be similar :D  thumb1

Reincarnation?
I have similar face features with Olga of Kiev ,so what? People face types are not so many , not more than 10 in the caucasian race ...I may say this as an artist been through 1000s of faces ... So what?
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 03:09:51 AM
But there were 9 hikers who had hatchets, ice axes and knives?

Now you are too much clever on me..

Im not sure what do you mean...? Explain, please.

What I am saying is that an Elk is a big animal and capable of taking out people.  But in the tent there are axes and other items that could have been used as weapons to defend themselves against an animal attack.  The axes were just left in the tent.  Even if an elk was attacking one of them, the others could have grabbed a weapon and fought back.

Regards

Star man

Hello Starman,
good point, I though about it also.

It is hard to say.. I think they jumped from tent, they probably very very scared because also of Yetti chatting before in tent.
To a certain point they probably could be very paralyzed by stress. I think that thay maybe wanted, but they were noticed by Zolotaryov to do not take.

I try to say that there probably were a very unstabile changes in fear and calm situations.

If I will meet in nature a dangerous animal (s), than I will never try to escalate a force to him or make attack on him also in critic area.. No... I will try to fight with him only in very critical situation. But, circa 500 kgs weigh animal, how you imagine you will kill him? By axe or knife? I dont think so.

Somewhere I will try to find a video, when I was attacked by wild pig in 2013. (I made a basics of my house, when the pig come from the forrest by very calm movement to me). It was just a maybe 150 kgs weigh pig. Around me were everywhere some "weapons". (shovel, pickaxe, etc..) I did not use any of it, and I didn't even think of it. It only occurred to me when the pig ran away.

The pigs behaviour was very weird.
The pig very changed his mood. Firstly it just leaned on me his feets, so I started to play with him like with dog, I take my phone and start to make a video because I though this pig was very friendly and his behaviour was uncommon.  But he became to be more and more crazy. I had to run away to pile of ravel. There it stops and pig run away.

Yes I could to hit him by shovel, but Im sure then it will be kill me because of his angry.
However Im sure, if I will carry a gun, I will start to shot him immediatelly of his agression escalation.

So are an effective weapons which can stop escalating force in a second and then are the uneffective weapons which can help you or increase the escalation force effect.

This elk(s) in our story did not have to behave since the beggining agressive. It is the animal, it is also curiously like every human. But during a 1500m of movement there could became a lot of stimulus why to make a finally attack.


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 03:15:30 AM
By the way, have you catched some similar face body parts between modern scout and Soviet 1940 scout?
.....the same shapes of nose  lol2

probably also bodies constitutions will be similar :D  thumb1

Reincarnation?
I have similar face features with Olga of Kiev ,so what? People face types are not so many , not more than 10 in the caucasian race ...I may say this as an artist been through 1000s of faces ... So what?

Ethnisba..
I just tried your attentions...
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 07:32:15 AM
I do look at faces a lot and look in details. That is why my imagination could go wild about blurry images in photos. For example some people claim to see human figures in some photos, stalking the hikers. I will post them in my next post for you to see ,do you see figures in these photos?
The whole story sounds a lot probable . The only thing is what happened next... Why so many secrecies? Pilot and nurse report more than 9 bodies. Radiograms from the day the pilot reported are missing. Tent found on 24th by two searchers  but they didn't report too. Pilots of helicopters refusing to take the bodies if they are not in zinc coffins. Authorities trying to bury the hikers in Ivdel ,hundred km away from their city in order to avoid publicity. Sappers with mine detectors present in the pass while searching. Radioactivity testing ,and more and more..... All of this and nobody noticed animal hairs on Zinas pants???
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 07:38:00 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/581Hykt/FB-IMG-1555166044717.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bB69ZFq)

(https://i.ibb.co/m9hCNy5/FB-IMG-1555166062743.jpg) (https://ibb.co/StVXfmw)

(https://i.ibb.co/CWGzZ6C/FB-IMG-1555166051180.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V34tZxn)

(https://i.ibb.co/vd846td/FB-IMG-1555166081379.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GMjQ4hM)

(https://i.ibb.co/QCHjGt8/FB-IMG-1555166058320.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8dx4Vtz)

(https://i.ibb.co/pPBCFZN/FB-IMG-1555166077835.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPX476B)

(https://i.ibb.co/47W2Lp2/FB-IMG-1555166067424.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MsnfH7f)

(https://i.ibb.co/m9hCNy5/FB-IMG-1555166062743.jpg) (https://ibb.co/StVXfmw)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Star man on April 13, 2019, 09:31:17 AM
I do look at faces a lot and look in details. That is why my imagination could go wild about blurry images in photos. For example some people claim to see human figures in some photos, stalking the hikers. I will post them in my next post for you to see ,do you see figures in these photos?
The whole story sounds a lot probable . The only thing is what happened next... Why so many secrecies? Pilot and nurse report more than 9 bodies. Radiograms from the day the pilot reported are missing. Tent found on 24th by two searchers  but they didn't report too. Pilots of helicopters refusing to take the bodies if they are not in zinc coffins. Authorities trying to bury the hikers in Ivdel ,hundred km away from their city in order to avoid publicity. Sappers with mine detectors present in the pass while searching. Radioactivity testing ,and more and more..... All of this and nobody noticed animal hairs on Zinas pants???

Radioactive elks???  Genetically modified by the military as assassins?

 whist1
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 09:54:01 AM
I do look at faces a lot and look in details. That is why my imagination could go wild about blurry images in photos. For example some people claim to see human figures in some photos, stalking the hikers. I will post them in my next post for you to see ,do you see figures in these photos?
The whole story sounds a lot probable . The only thing is what happened next... Why so many secrecies? Pilot and nurse report more than 9 bodies. Radiograms from the day the pilot reported are missing. Tent found on 24th by two searchers  but they didn't report too. Pilots of helicopters refusing to take the bodies if they are not in zinc coffins. Authorities trying to bury the hikers in Ivdel ,hundred km away from their city in order to avoid publicity. Sappers with mine detectors present in the pass while searching. Radioactivity testing ,and more and more..... All of this and nobody noticed animal hairs on Zinas pants???

Before I send my opinion of pictures, I will reply to your post.
How could nurse and pilot saw 9 bodies, when the dead bodies were found in 2 etages...? More than 2 moths ago.

Always if somebody makes a mistake, than he usualy triy to cover his mistake. It is normal human skill. And there were a lot of mistakes of capturing the evidence in "accident scene" I think there was the interest for explaination of their dead from the highest goverment positions. So everybody who made some mistake at this day nearby this area, tried to cover. Because of fear from Moskva. And this is in my opinion the reason of create the questions which lead to demonize and conspirations.

If military or goverment will know about just something, than Im more than sure they will send own investigators from the tip of goverment, ministry of defence or KGB, but not some local comisars with students. They will be at place as the first. Also trust me if goverment will want, than the bodies will be never found....

Pilot is just a human. Take in mind that somebody will place at his chopper a human beeings without eyes, etc. He was scared from non-secured and visual of decomposing bodies.
If somebody will want to give me in my car 4 decomposting bodies, some without eyes, then I will not want to take them in my car also. You not?
I will take them only in case of their secure. Secure them from movement, secure them from visual - anybody want to be scattered by this visual scene. Only that you would be mentally perverse.



Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 10:27:06 AM
At the first zoomed picture I see an SS skull which floats as a cloud. (Psychologist will be happy of me)  shock1
(https://i.ibb.co/QdwpJh4/FB-IMG-1555166044717-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cLnkyRj)

at the second picture I see a big penguin.
(https://i.ibb.co/bH7GTjq/FB-IMG-1555166062743.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8zXQqnT)

At the third picture (after zoom) I see a small cute teddy bear with the dominant black beam.
(https://i.ibb.co/pdXjxYr/FB-IMG-1555166051180-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x65qDx8)

At fourth picture I see a standing human who is watching my direction. And his position looks he is aiming on me (probably rifle). This person has a typical russia winter cap with ears covers. (ušanka)
(https://i.ibb.co/BTn1vMC/FB-IMG-1555166058320.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KVK1Bvr)

At the fifth picture I see a face of Yetty or some KINGKONG.
(https://i.ibb.co/6XD5Q5H/FB-IMG-1555166067424.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y4gJ2J6)

I know my imagination is now suitable for conspirations.
But it means nothing...

Have you seen, I firstly did not see an ELK?  excuseme
Radim


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 12:51:41 PM
I do look at faces a lot and look in details. That is why my imagination could go wild about blurry images in photos. For example some people claim to see human figures in some photos, stalking the hikers. I will post them in my next post for you to see ,do you see figures in these photos?
The whole story sounds a lot probable . The only thing is what happened next... Why so many secrecies? Pilot and nurse report more than 9 bodies. Radiograms from the day the pilot reported are missing. Tent found on 24th by two searchers  but they didn't report too. Pilots of helicopters refusing to take the bodies if they are not in zinc coffins. Authorities trying to bury the hikers in Ivdel ,hundred km away from their city in order to avoid publicity. Sappers with mine detectors present in the pass while searching. Radioactivity testing ,and more and more..... All of this and nobody noticed animal hairs on Zinas pants???

Radioactive elks???  Genetically modified by the military as assassins?

 whist1

I knew it, aliens waking up the yeti was too simple a solution ;)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 01:07:31 PM
Ethnisba,
please could you make this picture as black and white? And add some “lens defects”?


(https://i.ibb.co/fFgrbgh/94-BF1-B7-E-1-B94-48-E3-A456-77-C455-FA4886.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bm0Nx0S)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Others of you can write us, where Im heading..
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 01:23:49 PM
For the people who are reading this topic.. I will be glad if you also add in our disscusion.

Just please dont add any bullshits.

Thank you
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 01:38:05 PM

No , i didn't ask about an elk, but exactly about humans. Where you see penguin and a teddy bear ,people are saying human figures are visible. I see what you see as a penguin ,but right side of the penguin looks like a person holding a binocal and looking right.
First - the skull is supposed to be a mansi face in bushes
The aiming guy, nobody saw him,but only the 2 figures under him who look like two people sitting on a bench.
Last one seems like ape to me too, but again they claim there is a human somewhere ,,,i fail to see it.

Yeah nobody wants decomposing bodies in his trunk, but these helicopter pilots knew they are sent there  to take the bodies,and bodies were in black bags, so no visual contact .... I am wondering how searchers were touching and moving out of the water wet decaying corpses with bare hands. There are photos of them dragging the wet corpses with hands and then uphill to the helikopter... They look bad on black and white photos ,what comes for a full color and real...
There is a pilot who on 25th February reported that he sees 2 bodies in front of the tent! And in the case files we have radiograms from the search from each day,no missing. And surprisingly only 25th is blank ???
Testing for radioactivity ? What possible mistake Ivanov - the lead investigator-  tries to cover by making such a test on the last 4 bodies?

Have you read about Korovina group? There are many similarities and alive survivor to tell the story. You can use google translate for english.
Part 1
https://m.balkans.kp.ru/daily/26858/3901230/

Part2
https://m.balkans.kp.ru/daily/26859/3901807/

Other article part1
https://m.balkans.kp.ru/daily/26948.1/4000080/

Other article part 2
https://m.balkans.kp.ru/daily/26949.7/4000642/


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 01:49:14 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/2NzNQZc/1555188487828.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ySzS14g)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 01:51:40 PM
 I need photoshop for proper lens defects similar to Zolotarev ones, now i am using my phone only and it is not a great tool . Tomorrow may try on my laptop
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 02:49:10 PM
I need photoshop for proper lens defects similar to Zolotarev ones, now i am using my phone only and it is not a great tool . Tomorrow may try on my laptop

Ethnisba,
Thank you so much for edit. This picture enoghs. You dont have to make next edit of this picture. Good job.

Is known is this film negative new? I mean if it is separate film negative contra other pictures which Zolotaryov made during expedition? I mean reloaded film negative?

(Important information for me)


Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 03:22:24 PM


SOF Scouts are people who are selected by a specific personality and psychological profile. In most cases, these guys are unreadable introverts. But very friendly and decent/polite. On the other hand, they are people who can change their personality and aggression very quickly according the situation. They are very adaptable people. "From angel can became a killing machine".

From this description I must be a SOF scout too :))) joke aside




But why you keep referring to these " photos"   ,these are not photos but milimeters from a photo . How could a body or animal fit in 2mm of a frame. It could but would be 5 km away. We are not saying that Zolotaryov didn't make photos. Probably he did. I would too.
But you fail to understand that here you are not looking at actual photo. Let me try explain it with pictures:


(https://i.ibb.co/tPkmQKW/IMG-20190413-084046.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

This is the tiny fragment near the edge of the film you are looking at in these pictures. How could and animal ot body be visible there and why would anybody photographing something put it there out of focus and near the edge and so tiny???

This is an answer of your points:


(https://i.ibb.co/RYVBvqp/10822463-1059602040733779-194952094-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vVKQwSx)

2012 cayman s 0 60 (https://statewideinventory.org/porsche-0-60-times)
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Radim on April 13, 2019, 03:46:36 PM
I will be open to all of you..
It is just 7 days when I started to interest in this accident, I dont have a time to read all analyzes, so it is the reason why I ask.

But Im sure by one thing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQlxjSm0qU0

It was just an elk(s) and this whole topic will prove it…

99
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 05:52:32 PM
You should read the case files here, radiograms, witnesses, autopsies....if really have an interest. These documents will open new thoughts
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on April 15, 2019, 01:27:16 PM
I will be open to all of you..
It is just 7 days when I started to interest in this accident, I dont have a time to read all analyzes, so it is the reason why I ask.

But Im sure by one thing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQlxjSm0qU0

It was just an elk(s) and this whole topic will prove it…

99

If you are serious about this Dyatlov Case then you must at least go over all the main points, so check out www.dyatlovpass.com
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: jarrfan on August 11, 2019, 06:57:27 PM
I believe there is a possibility of an elk herd attack, not really an attack but a herd running frantic and running over the tent with the people in it. I was in a tent sleeping and we heard galloping. Thinking it was a herd of deer, we turned onto our faces in the fetal position. Did not attempt any weapons of any kind. It turned out it was a bunch of dogs that had gotten loose in the camping area and were running amuck. But, a herd of elk in the night, prompted by smells of humans, may have jumped onto the tent causing the inflicted injuries. After they knew they were gone, the hikers could only cut their way out because of the condition of the tent and their injuries. An elk jumping on someone could surely crush a skull and ribs. Perhaps Lyudia was screaming and her tongue was cut by her teeth.

In addition, the search  party said there were no foot prints around the tent, they had all been covered by snow. If those foot prints of the hikers were covered by snow, so would the foot prints of the elk be covered.

The only footprints found were 30 meters down the hill according to the search report.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: sarapuk on August 12, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
I believe there is a possibility of an elk herd attack, not really an attack but a herd running frantic and running over the tent with the people in it. I was in a tent sleeping and we heard galloping. Thinking it was a herd of deer, we turned onto our faces in the fetal position. Did not attempt any weapons of any kind. It turned out it was a bunch of dogs that had gotten loose in the camping area and were running amuck. But, a herd of elk in the night, prompted by smells of humans, may have jumped onto the tent causing the inflicted injuries. After they knew they were gone, the hikers could only cut their way out because of the condition of the tent and their injuries. An elk jumping on someone could surely crush a skull and ribs. Perhaps Lyudia was screaming and her tongue was cut by her teeth.

In addition, the search  party said there were no foot prints around the tent, they had all been covered by snow. If those foot prints of the hikers were covered by snow, so would the foot prints of the elk be covered.

The only footprints found were 30 meters down the hill according to the search report.

There is No Evidence to suggest an Elk attack. The Tent Site would have shown Evidence of such an attack. The Bodies also would have shown Evidence of an Elk attack. The injuries were of such a nature to rule out  an Elk or Herd Of Elks attack.
Title: Re: Elk(s) attack
Post by: BottledBrunette on September 02, 2019, 12:55:22 PM
Very interesting theory.  Would have never thought of that one.  And you are correct, elk could probably attack them, because deer have been known to attack people.  I think I saw a case where a woman was found dead, murder was suspected, but, a deer attack was mentioned as probable cause, because some hikers said they had been attacked for no reason by deers on the same path the woman was found dead, some were injured if I remember correctly, so you could be on to something with the elk attack.