Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Clacon on April 25, 2019, 02:02:29 PM

Title: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Clacon on April 25, 2019, 02:02:29 PM
Was just reading pathway: "Dyatlov Pass Forum→ Factual Information→ Materials Modern→ Video / Photography" posts and am not very clear if WAB answered Loose Cannon's question?

Was the Cedar inbetween the Tent and the Ravine?

Or was the Ravine inbetween the Cedar and the Tent?

Thanks





Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Star man on April 25, 2019, 11:32:33 PM
Was just reading pathway: "Dyatlov Pass Forum→ Factual Information→ Materials Modern→ Video / Photography" posts and am not very clear if WAB answered Loose Cannon's question?

Was the Cedar inbetween the Tent and the Ravine?

Or was the Ravine inbetween the Cedar and the Tent?

Thanks

My understanding (although could be wrong) is that the ravine was about 90 degrees angle between line from tent to cedar.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 26, 2019, 03:12:30 AM
See reply #28 - http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=146.0
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on April 26, 2019, 01:45:20 PM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on April 26, 2019, 09:43:13 PM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Probably because of too much tiredness and the darkening of the air ...... because they made a few hours before lapaz and are tired. And they might have stayed there to see Oterten Mountain in the morning ... ...And that was not a very important mistake for them ... because it was not an avalanche and they had good heaters to warm up.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Marchesk on April 26, 2019, 10:08:21 PM
And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?

I don't know that we can be absolutely certain that the campsite wasn't moved for staging purposes. But that probably requires one to think the footprints were staged, which is a bit much for me. Still, who really knows in this case. The reason given for why they camped on the mountain side is that Igor either didn't want to lose ground for the next day since they didn't get very far and were probably behind schedule, or he wanted to use it as an opportunity to camp in difficult conditions.

Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 26, 2019, 10:28:38 PM
If you are standing at the cedar and looking towards the tent, the ravine is to your right and back a bit.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 27, 2019, 04:57:41 AM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Because that was the plan as stated by Igor in the group diary on the previous day. - "It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements."
As for the reasons, they weren't well equipped for ascending in tougher snow conditions, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So i think they decided to abandon the plan to ascend into the pass and then descend into the forest, shed some unnecessary load (55kg) at the labaz and then having gained altitude, retain it by camping above the treeline else they would struggle to keep to the itinerary.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on April 29, 2019, 09:44:48 AM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Probably because of too much tiredness and the darkening of the air ...... because they made a few hours before lapaz and are tired. And they might have stayed there to see Oterten Mountain in the morning ... ...And that was not a very important mistake for them ... because it was not an avalanche and they had good heaters to warm up.

But if they were tired then thats all the more reason to want to camp lower down near the Tree Line  !  ?  Weather was bad so I dont think they had on their minds seeing the Mount in the morning  !  ?
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on April 29, 2019, 09:48:50 AM
And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?

I don't know that we can be absolutely certain that the campsite wasn't moved for staging purposes. But that probably requires one to think the footprints were staged, which is a bit much for me. Still, who really knows in this case. The reason given for why they camped on the mountain side is that Igor either didn't want to lose ground for the next day since they didn't get very far and were probably behind schedule, or he wanted to use it as an opportunity to camp in difficult conditions.

Thats 2 of the many reasons given. But surely a kilometre or mile isnt going to make much difference  !  ?   And would they really be bothered about seeking an opportunity to camp in worse conditions than was really necessary  !  ? 
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on April 29, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Because that was the plan as stated by Igor in the group diary on the previous day. - "It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements."
As for the reasons, they weren't well equipped for ascending in tougher snow conditions, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So i think they decided to abandon the plan to ascend into the pass and then descend into the forest, shed some unnecessary load (55kg) at the labaz and then having gained altitude, retain it by camping above the treeline else they would struggle to keep to the itinerary.

But does that diary entry really tell us the whole story or is it just a passing thought  !  ?  And it seems to me irrelevant whether or not they camped a mile this way or that regarding keeping to an itinerary, because they are still going to have to travel the same distance, either earlier or the next day  !  ? 
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 29, 2019, 11:00:45 AM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Because that was the plan as stated by Igor in the group diary on the previous day. - "It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements."
As for the reasons, they weren't well equipped for ascending in tougher snow conditions, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So i think they decided to abandon the plan to ascend into the pass and then descend into the forest, shed some unnecessary load (55kg) at the labaz and then having gained altitude, retain it by camping above the treeline else they would struggle to keep to the itinerary.

But does that diary entry really tell us the whole story or is it just a passing thought  !  ? 
Err, it indicates the intention?

And it seems to me irrelevant whether or not they camped a mile this way or that regarding keeping to an itinerary, because they are still going to have to travel the same distance, either earlier or the next day  !  ?
No i think the forest would have been slower and they had lost a day, so a good reason for changing the plan.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 29, 2019, 07:20:57 PM
There is ample evidence from their diaries that tracking through the forest is MUCH more difficult as apposed to open terrain such as a frozen river or treeless hillside.  There was an incentive to avoid the actual pass and ravine ridden woods thereafter by climbing to the west and skiing uninhibited around the side of the mountain.   That was a smart move, however camping on the side of the slope for level 3 certification brownie points was not.   
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on April 30, 2019, 12:36:17 PM
The group was very tired after storage. And they found it easier to move on the mountain slope than go to the forest. That's why they camped on the mountain slope. And they thought of going along the slope in the morning. There was no danger of avalanches. And they were providing enough heat. Therefore, they could have preferred the mountainside instead of the forest. Normally the mountain slope is not suitable for camping .... But sometimes there are exceptions. That was an exception. But that was exactly what Superman wanted. Maybe Superman can have the power to affect people's thoughts. Because it is very likely that such a powerful person will dominate or at least direct it in thought. So he wanted the whole thing to happen exactly as he wanted. And that's exactly what he wanted.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on April 30, 2019, 01:14:31 PM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Because that was the plan as stated by Igor in the group diary on the previous day. - "It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements."
As for the reasons, they weren't well equipped for ascending in tougher snow conditions, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So i think they decided to abandon the plan to ascend into the pass and then descend into the forest, shed some unnecessary load (55kg) at the labaz and then having gained altitude, retain it by camping above the treeline else they would struggle to keep to the itinerary.

But does that diary entry really tell us the whole story or is it just a passing thought  !  ? 
Err, it indicates the intention?

And it seems to me irrelevant whether or not they camped a mile this way or that regarding keeping to an itinerary, because they are still going to have to travel the same distance, either earlier or the next day  !  ?
No i think the forest would have been slower and they had lost a day, so a good reason for changing the plan.

But just an indication, thats all. Changing the Plan to camp on an exposed location in very bad weather doesnt sound like a good Plan to Me.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 30, 2019, 01:42:49 PM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Because that was the plan as stated by Igor in the group diary on the previous day. - "It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements."
As for the reasons, they weren't well equipped for ascending in tougher snow conditions, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So i think they decided to abandon the plan to ascend into the pass and then descend into the forest, shed some unnecessary load (55kg) at the labaz and then having gained altitude, retain it by camping above the treeline else they would struggle to keep to the itinerary.

But does that diary entry really tell us the whole story or is it just a passing thought  !  ? 
Err, it indicates the intention?

And it seems to me irrelevant whether or not they camped a mile this way or that regarding keeping to an itinerary, because they are still going to have to travel the same distance, either earlier or the next day  !  ?
No i think the forest would have been slower and they had lost a day, so a good reason for changing the plan.

But just an indication, thats all. Changing the Plan to camp on an exposed location in very bad weather doesnt sound like a good Plan to Me.
Yes, if you read the diary entry you'll notice that Igor wondered whether it was a good plan......  bang1
But surely the point is that's the plan they decided on?

Btw, they weren't a "mile or so" from the treeline. More like 800m.

 (https://i.ibb.co/ygX0VRJ/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bNP173n)
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 30, 2019, 06:11:44 PM
Nigel.

Far left indicates 1500m.  There is 1609m in a mile.   whist1
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 01, 2019, 12:16:39 AM
Nigel.

Far left indicates 1500m.  There is 1609m in a mile.   whist1
Yes 1500m to the cedar, 800m to the treeline (it's the dashed line in a big loop).  declare1
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 01, 2019, 06:01:06 AM
Ah, you say treeline eh.

Well, thats subjective as the woods/treeline begin and continue for a considerable distance as very thin saplings and other small vegetation.  I guess it would depend on ones definition of a wooded treeline. 
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 01, 2019, 06:21:35 AM
Ah, you say treeline eh.

Well, thats subjective as the woods/treeline begin and continue for a considerable distance as very thin saplings and other small vegetation.  I guess it would depend on ones definition of a wooded treeline.
Here's a photo to help you with your subjective definitions :-


 (https://i.ibb.co/YQHYKYT/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1QFhphJ)
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Clacon on May 01, 2019, 07:17:06 AM
Hi Nigel - would it be a big bother to put the Ravine, Den and the Rav4's bodies onto that map?


Also - how treacherous would those "ridges 1-3" have been to navigate thru?? Enough to inflict the superficial injuries to Zina, Rustem and Igor?
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 01, 2019, 07:26:27 AM
Hi Nigel - would it be a big bother to put the Ravine, Den and the Rav4's bodies onto that map?It's not my map, it's from the main site. It's my guess that the rav4 were found at the rhs of the "<---- 70 ---->" arrows. WAB has posted a much more detailed map?


Also - how treacherous would those "ridges 1-3" have been to navigate thru?? Enough to inflict the superficial injuries to Zina, Rustem and Igor?WAB posted a video of his colleague coming down in his socks in similar conditions? Seemed a bit slippy and that was in broad daylight. A good case for them picking up abrasions in the dark.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on May 01, 2019, 11:24:04 AM
Nigel.

Far left indicates 1500m.  There is 1609m in a mile.   whist1
Yes 1500m to the cedar, 800m to the treeline (it's the dashed line in a big loop).  declare1

I think many Investigators see about a mile as the distance that the Dyatlov Group travelled towards the Cedar or Tree Line.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: sarapuk on May 01, 2019, 11:26:42 AM
Hi Nigel - would it be a big bother to put the Ravine, Den and the Rav4's bodies onto that map?It's not my map, it's from the main site. It's my guess that the rav4 were found at the rhs of the "<---- 70 ---->" arrows. WAB has posted a much more detailed map?


Also - how treacherous would those "ridges 1-3" have been to navigate thru?? Enough to inflict the superficial injuries to Zina, Rustem and Igor?WAB posted a video of his colleague coming down in his socks in similar conditions? Seemed a bit slippy and that was in broad daylight. A good case for them picking up abrasions in the dark.

Yes thats a good location for someone picking up abrasions in the dark, but not the very serious and unusual injuries found on some of the bodies.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on May 01, 2019, 04:23:26 PM
Ah, you say treeline eh.
 
Well, thats subjective as the woods/treeline begin and continue for a considerable distance as very thin saplings and other small vegetation.  I guess it would depend on ones definition of a wooded treeline.
Here's a photo to help you with your subjective definitions :-


 (https://i.ibb.co/YQHYKYT/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1QFhphJ)

Wow.....    never seen that one before.    rolleyes1
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on May 01, 2019, 11:25:59 PM
Looking at these photos and maps and drawings of the area I can not but keep thinking ; WHY ON EARTH DID THEY CAMP ON AN EXPOSED HILLSIDE  !  ?  Why did they not Camp at the Tree - Line !  ?  I would have done so and Iam sure most outdoors people would have done so.  So was there something that caused them to Camp a mile or so from the Tree - Line  !  ?  And can we be absolutely certain that there was not an attempt to set up a Camp at the Tree - Line near the Cedar Tree before they Camped on the Hillside  !  ?
Probably because of too much tiredness and the darkening of the air ...... because they made a few hours before lapaz and are tired. And they might have stayed there to see Oterten Mountain in the morning ... ...And that was not a very important mistake for them ... because it was not an avalanche and they had good heaters to warm up.

But if they were tired then thats all the more reason to want to camp lower down near the Tree Line  !  ?  Weather was bad so I dont think they had on their minds seeing the Mount in the morning  !  ?
No, because they were tired, they didn't want to go from the woods to the mountain slopes. I think the Urals have stormy weather in the evenings, but in the morning the weather is calm.
They didn't want to go into the forest because they were tired. They wanted to reach the mountain slopes of Otertene. So, after observing the mountain Otertan in the morning, they wanted to reach the Otertene by following the mountain slope. So they would never land in the forest. Is it possible to reach the mountain of Oterten by following the mountain slopes? I do not know that
[/b]
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on May 01, 2019, 11:51:33 PM
As far as I can see from the map, 3/5 of the section from Khola Mountain to Oterten Mountain is suitable for the slope. And it's getting a little shorter on the way. Thus, the young people were too tired to see the mountain slope was suitable for progress. That's why they didn't want to land in the forest. Because they wanted to reach Oterten Mountain in the morning by following the mountain slope. Young people did not want to go to the forest to camp and return to the slope again..
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on May 02, 2019, 01:38:05 AM

I'm guessing the two Yuris come out of the tent with their inner clothes. Because two blankets were scattered. maybe he was asleep. As far as I can see, Yuri is the most tired and sleepy teenager. So two of the young people prepared before the event (Semyon and Tibo) and the other 2 (2 Yuri) was asleep and caught off guard. And the other 5 young people were awake but did not prepare. 2 Yurinin clothes on the sedan no one did not remove the clothes, but the location could have found the previous Mansions. Because the 25-day period is too long. In other words, the hunters of the Mansi are very likely to find 2 Yuris. As far as I know, it was the Mansans who also found the tent.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: cennetkusu on May 02, 2019, 02:11:50 AM
There is a distance of 2-2.5 km between the tent and the previous camp site. The young people planned to make stock tent and reach the slope of the mountain Khola. For example, they got up at 9:00. They served breakfast until 10:00. Then they moved a little bit and set the place for the stock tent. They must have spent at least 3 hours for the stock tent. They must have done it between 10:30 and 13:30. Then at 13:30 they walked towards the mountain of Khola. 2-2.5 km in difficult weather conditions this distance takes about 2 hours. So they came to the slopes between 13: 30-15: 30. I think the weather should be 17:00(?) Young people decided to set up the camp there. Because they didn't have time to go down to the jungle and look for campsites. And they had decided to leave the mountain slopes to reach the mountain of Otertan. Because they were very tired. Mountain weather and bad weather conditions had exhausted them.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 02, 2019, 03:58:40 AM
Ah, you say treeline eh.
 
Well, thats subjective as the woods/treeline begin and continue for a considerable distance as very thin saplings and other small vegetation.  I guess it would depend on ones definition of a wooded treeline.
Here's a photo to help you with your subjective definitions :-


 (https://i.ibb.co/YQHYKYT/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1QFhphJ)

Wow.....    never seen that one before.    rolleyes1
Anytime.  kewl1
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Clacon on May 03, 2019, 08:08:28 AM
I'm just trying to establish if they would have been going between the Cedar and the Ravine? Also, do you think all 6 of them were at the Cedar together??

Its my understanding - if we're looking at the map Nigel posted from the website, that the den was to the right of the "70 metres" line, but down (south) a little(?)

Was it on the same side of the river as the Cedar or across the river on the other side?

If they were crossing the river on snow and ice on top of it, this could lend credence to the weak spot and fall theory.

Also - Star Man - do you think that traversing the icy and rocky ridges on the way to the Cedar could account for the 3's "fist fight" and facial injuries?

I'll repost question under simplest possible credible explanation too if you think its more appropriate there.
Title: Re: Tent, cedar, ravine
Post by: Star man on May 03, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
I'm just trying to establish if they would have been going between the Cedar and the Ravine? Also, do you think all 6 of them were at the Cedar together??

Its my understanding - if we're looking at the map Nigel posted from the website, that the den was to the right of the "70 metres" line, but down (south) a little(?)

Was it on the same side of the river as the Cedar or across the river on the other side?

If they were crossing the river on snow and ice on top of it, this could lend credence to the weak spot and fall theory.

Also - Star Man - do you think that traversing the icy and rocky ridges on the way to the Cedar could account for the 3's "fist fight" and facial injuries?

I'll repost question under simplest possible credible explanation too if you think its more appropriate there.

Possibly.  It's difficult to say if, and where there was a fist fight.  The autopsy reports seem to have some good supporting evidence that there was a fist fight.  If it wasn't the cause of the dpi then the stress of the situation could easily have resulted in a fight.

I wanted to have a look at WABs video of the descent of the mountain but haven't yet.

Regards

Star man