Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Yeti / Snowman => Topic started by: Star man on July 07, 2019, 11:46:40 PM

Title: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 07, 2019, 11:46:40 PM
The Yeti theory is definitely one that is controversial.  There are many skeptics out there (including myself) but there are also many people who are convinced that they are real.

It is true that there is currently no objective scientific evidence to support their existence.  But it is also common for well established scientific beliefs to be proven wrong also.  In the study and exploration of the solar system almost every heavenly body has revealed surprises that were unexpected or difficult to explain.  Sometimes it is those who are prepared to challenge common understanding that push the frontier of science and knowledge forward.

I want to use this topic to explore the yeti theory in an objective way.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 08, 2019, 08:10:06 AM
If we take objective view, my problem with yeti theory is that it requires a proof of its existence, let alone presence at the specific place and time, which multiplies the denominator of probability by a large margin and pushes it far from any 'realistic' theory.

To put it bluntly, compared do military or murder theory, there is one more level of proof needed. I don't need to prove the existence of Soviet soldiers or people with violent intent when we discuss the latter. Their presence remains to be proved or dismissed though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 08, 2019, 03:44:33 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 10:53:54 PM
If we take objective view, my problem with yeti theory is that it requires a proof of its existence, let alone presence at the specific place and time, which multiplies the denominator of probability by a large margin and pushes it far from any 'realistic' theory.

To put it bluntly, compared do military or murder theory, there is one more level of proof needed. I don't need to prove the existence of Soviet soldiers or people with violent intent when we discuss the latter. Their presence remains to be proved or dismissed though.

Hi Gypsy,

I understand the problem that you outline.  But the denominator might not be significantly greater than the other theories when comparing the motives.  Yes the military and or the potential for murderes "definitely exist".  But thie pass is an extremely remote area, and the weather was really bad.  Apart from the signs of the Mansi and a hunter the group did not see any other people on their trek, even in good weather and daylight.  What is the probability that the military or murderes new where they were AND that the probability that they would take the opportunity to attack them at night in severe weather?  Also, what is the probability that said killers would allow the group to wander off down the slope, (some with shoes and relatively warm clothing)?  What is the probability that the killers would allow some of the group to take knives and matches and flashlights with them?  What would the motive be for such an attack?

On the other hand how would a Yeti know they were there - smell, noise.
What would a Yeti be doing there - it's natural habitat
Why would a Yeti attack them - curiosity and territorial protection.
If they did cut their way through the side of the tent why would they do this to evade humans?  It would be pointless.

The group left the camp site in a hurry - Rustem left before he finished putting his boots on.
There appears to have been a significant and immediate threat to life that night.  Something scary enough to force them all away from their life boat the tent.

Yes - all of the above is subject to question too.  I am simply suggesting that the probabilities might not  be as far away as expected.

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 10:55:44 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 08, 2019, 11:43:37 PM
It might be worth trying to put some context into this thread.

Scientific discovery can be a slow and sometimes embarrassing process. Especially for the scientific community who have their reputation to keep.

It was difficult for them to accept that the world wasn’t flat after all.  Maps had to be re-drawn and trade routes thought through again because our shipping was no longer going to fall off the edge.

Oh and by the way the earth isn’t the centre of the universe.  That was a bit embarrassing - sorry Galileo.

Wow women can actually learn to read.  That was a bit of a revelation for some.

Say what - you can actually travel faster than 30 mph without suffocating?  Thanks for that one Stevenson.

Oh pants - you can’t actually turn base metals into gold.  I’ll have to buy a lottery ticket now.

Ah - the universe is actually bigger than we thought and it is still getting bigger.  Thanks Edwin.  What would we have done without you.  I don’t need my cosmological constant after all - or do I?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 04:47:13 AM
Hi.  Just a bit more context

There are now many examples of animals that were previously thought to be myth, legend or extinct that we have recently been discovered to be still around.

The Megamouth Shark thought to be extinct for millions of years turned up in 1976.  Only 100 have ever been seen since.

The Coelacanth thought to be extinct since the Cretaceous found alive in 1938.

What about the ancient mariners tales of giant sea serpents and squid.  Utter nonsense - at least until the 1860s when an actual specimen was found and it became a part of main stream science.

Also several tribes of human have been discovered during the 20th century some living a Stone Age existence. Tribes that have had no contact with modern civilisation for thousands of years.

What about Big Foot or Yetis - utter garbage right?  To think that a potentially very intelligent humanoid creature could evade the true awesomeness of mankinds powers of discovery.

Regards

Star man



Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 04:00:59 PM
Possible Clues:

The Evening Otorten - satirical pamphlet with each entry humorously relaying real events of the trip.  So what about the Science entry and the "snow man"?  Did one of the group see something and relay this to the group only to be ridiculed and later prompt the entry in the pamphlet?  Why say anything about a snow man in the pamphlet?  The pamphlets certainly doesn't say anything about military personnel or KGB or any other humans.

Why camp where they did in an exposed place in potentially bad weather conditions away from the planned route?  Did they think it would give them a better vantage point to observe anything approaching the tent? 

Why did Semyon have his camera around his neck - had he seen something that he wanted to photograph?  Did he fear for his life and thought that taking a photo of his killer would at least inform the world about what had happened.  Did he have a piece of paper in hand when he was found and if so what was he trying to write?

What could scare 9 fit tourists so much that they would cut their way out of a tent and leave it's safety for sub zero temperatures without adequate clothing and shoes?  Cutting your way out of a tent is unlikely to be a realistic means of escape from humans.  It is more likely to be the panicked actions of people who are terrified of something in or at the entrance to the tent.

How do two of the tourists receive similar flail chest injuries on the same night?  While another receives a significant head injury?



Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 09, 2019, 11:44:22 PM
If there was a Yeti, why would it approach the group?  Probably just curiosity.  Maybe they were in its territory.

Of the many reported sightings of such creatures very few describe any sort of aggressive behaviour.  In most cases it would appear that both the creature and the human are taken by surprise with said creature making a swift and controlled retreat.  Other types of encounter describe the creature as curious- following the people but keeping their distance.  As if they are keeping a watchful eye on them to ensure they don’t present a threat to others in the creatures family.

Most description of aggression is in the form of growls and thrown objects such as stones and logs.  The creatures keeping a cautious distance.

So at the tent it is possible that the creature simply wanted them out of its territory in case they were a threat .

This is a simple motive is it not?

Regards

Star man


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 10, 2019, 08:46:18 AM
Why did the group leave the tent?  Given the remote location, the time of day and the poor weather conditions it is extremely unlikely that there were any other people there.  If there was a rocket or some other military threat from the air then it left no obvious trace on the tent and if it left no obvious trace on the tent then it could not have been significant enough to cause them harm - unless a large amount of gas was involved that later blew away.  And is it realistic to think that one moment they bahaved completely irrationally and then completely rationally again in their attempt to survive?

Is it more likely that on the slope that night there was a very real and significant threat?  A threat that was relatively quite at home in that environment?  A threat that scared them so much that they left their only safe refuge with insufficient clothing and footwear knowing that their chances of survival were slim.  Why cut the tent if it is your life boat?  Surely you would only do this out of shear panic, where your flight or flight response over ruled your logical thinking.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 11, 2019, 04:03:00 PM
Was looking at the photographs of the raised foot prints closely today and noticed something odd near the set of prints highlighted in green and numbered as 4.  I'm not going to say what it is though.  If anyone else sees something odd let me know.  Might be nothing, or something.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 10:27:10 AM
Régular and curved sweeping marks in the snow, like a zen garden? Or an erasement....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Régular and curved sweeping marks in the snow, like a zen garden? Or an erasement....

Yeah, there is definitely regularity there.  Even symmetry.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 11:46:03 AM
Someone with a metal detector «  combing » along the traces?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 12:43:57 PM
Below is a witness statement from slobtsov.  I find it interesting for several reasons:

He says we followed these prints from the tent in the direction of the spreading cedar.  Does that mean that the tourists could see the cedar on the landscape in the distance or is this just a coincidence?

If they could see it how? Wasn't it suppose to be night and bad weather?

If they decided to head for the cedar does that mean they were able to make their own decisions on where they went and what action they took.  In other words they were making their own decisions rather being frogged marched down the slope?

Why head for cedar?  What advantage did they see in this action if any?

Regards

Star man

Slobtsov

”There were footprints of bare feet, but in socks. Some were from valenki, and occasionally we could make out the tread of a ski boot. All of these prints were raised higher than the actual wind-scoured surface of the slope. We followed these prints from the tent in the direction of a spreading cedar, which was clearly prominent on the hill. First we lost, and then we found, the tracks again. They appeared again in the birch-tree undergrowth, and then they went down along the ravine which led to the Lozva River.”

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 12, 2019, 01:54:07 PM
but... dear Star Man, are looking at the same picture?
i was considering the ripples on this one, that somehow look on second thought like damage on a film...
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-011.jpg
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 12, 2019, 04:09:37 PM
but... dear Star Man, are looking at the same picture?
i was considering the ripples on this one, that somehow look on second thought like damage on a film...
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-011.jpg

Ah right.  I was looking at this one.  Centre right and down a little.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-015.jpg

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 03:53:06 PM
Let's talk a little bit about the more significant injuries.

Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo.

I have done a fair bit of research into the flail chest injuries and from my investigation I have concluded that both Lyuda and Semyon's flail chests appear to have been caused by a single very large impact - applying a force in the region of 2.5 tonnes.  This is far beyond any force that a human being can deliver in a single impact.  A fall could explain such an injury -say from about 4 to 5 metres onto a flatish surface.  A vehicle impact could also explain it - but I doubt very much there were any vehicles there.  Thibo's head injury could also be explained by a fall, and hitting his head on a rock.  Problem solved right?  -  not quite.  In a previous theory I wrote on " Low yield nuke" I speculated that the injuries were caused by the three falling from the cedar, after suffering from hypoxia.  This was one way of explaining how they didn't sustain any coincident injuries to limbs.

In most fall injuries of a conscious person a large proportion of them also result in broken ankles and wrists, due to the conscious person attempting to break their fall.  But here we have three significant injuries occurring without any similar injuries to limbs?  Why?  If they all fell and they were conscious when it happened then at least one of them should have sustained a significant injury to arms or ankle.  It's also interesting that two of them sustain very similar rib injuries, each of which require a very similar amount of force.  Kind of like the source of of both injuries was the same.  Could it have been a shock waves from an explosion?  If this was the case why no shrapnel wounds and no shrapnel also?  No scorch marks or burns on the clothing?  Also a shock wave capable of causing those injuries would throw the person a fair distance resulting in additional significant secondary injuries.  But there aren't any.

So what is the likihood of three of the Rav 4 falling on the same night and receiving significant and similar injuries?  The case files suggest there were 8 or 9 sets of tracks leading away from the tent down the slope in the same direction?  But only three of the tourists have significant head and chest Injuries, and it just so happens that those three were all found in the same group in the ravine. 

The chest injuries could also have been caused by a large crushing force applied like a bear hug, or from being physically picked up and thrown.  It would take something very powerful to do this.  Something much more powerful than any human.  Thibo's head injury could also have been cause the same way, or possibly from a thrown rock.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 03:59:03 PM
pasted-image.jpg

Not sure if this image post worked.  Anyway was lookingnatnthis image and noticed some regualr symmetrical discolouration of the snow/ice.  Have a look at the original to see if you can see it also.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 14, 2019, 04:00:18 PM
Ah it didn't work. -  no matter

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 04:06:18 AM
Building on the investigation into the injuries. Another possible explanation for the broken ribs and head injuries is that they could have been caused by a large bolder being lifted and dropped onto them. This would result in similar injuries.  The size of the bolder required to cause such injuries I have estimated to be between 150kg to 300kg depending on the height it is dropped from 1 to 2 metres.  This could potentially have been the murder weapon.  If this was used and the bodies were not subsequently moved then such a weapon could still be there today. An examination of the damaged ribs might reveal further information on what caused the breaks.

Another question is could a normal human lift such a bolder?  Or possibly two people working together?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 06:17:26 AM
Just some further thoughts on the above.  The bodies look like they have been moved.  Probably by Kolevatov.  If this is the case then it is unlikely that they would have been moved very far.  So if a bolder was used then it might not be in the immediate vicinity of where the bodies were found.  But it would probably be relatively near by.  Given the lack of tissue damage it is likely to have been a reasonabley smooth bolder.  It would also be likely that there are signs that the bolder had been moved and dropped- scratches, chunks missing etc.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 15, 2019, 01:34:37 PM
It might be worth trying to put some context into this thread.

Scientific discovery can be a slow and sometimes embarrassing process. Especially for the scientific community who have their reputation to keep.

It was difficult for them to accept that the world wasn’t flat after all.  Maps had to be re-drawn and trade routes thought through again because our shipping was no longer going to fall off the edge.

Oh and by the way the earth isn’t the centre of the universe.  That was a bit embarrassing - sorry Galileo.

Wow women can actually learn to read.  That was a bit of a revelation for some.

Say what - you can actually travel faster than 30 mph without suffocating?  Thanks for that one Stevenson.

Oh pants - you can’t actually turn base metals into gold.  I’ll have to buy a lottery ticket now.

Ah - the universe is actually bigger than we thought and it is still getting bigger.  Thanks Edwin.  What would we have done without you.  I don’t need my cosmological constant after all - or do I?

Regards

Star man

And lets not forget a biggy from Albert, nothing travels faster than the speed of light. Well actually something does.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 15, 2019, 01:49:28 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man

Well I have read many books and articles over the years and with the Internet getting better all the time more information is coming to light. I think a good idea would be to look at SIMILARITIES, obviously its unlikely we will come across an exact event. So similar instances where there have been reports of such creatures and any injuries to animals including Humans. Also any reports of UFO's in the vicinity of such sightings or events. Now I know about a famous story from ALASKA from the 1930's mostly, and here is an interesting link to get that particular ball rolling. https://www.alaskamagazine.com/articles/somethings-afoot-in-port-chatham-century-old-rumors-persist-of-a-terror-in-the-mountains/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 15, 2019, 03:24:10 PM
We can explore the YETI THEORY. It may take time though. We dont have much to go on regarding the Dyatlov Incident. We could use Incidents from the past to compare Events. Stories of strange creatures and legends and reports of witnesses sightings etc.

Hi Srarpuk,

Past eye witness accounts and stories would be useful.  Do you know of any?  Of course it will take time thrash this one out.

Regards

Star man

Well I have read many books and articles over the years and with the Internet getting better all the time more information is coming to light. I think a good idea would be to look at SIMILARITIES, obviously its unlikely we will come across an exact event. So similar instances where there have been reports of such creatures and any injuries to animals including Humans. Also any reports of UFO's in the vicinity of such sightings or events. Now I know about a famous story from ALASKA from the 1930's mostly, and here is an interesting link to get that particular ball rolling. https://www.alaskamagazine.com/articles/somethings-afoot-in-port-chatham-century-old-rumors-persist-of-a-terror-in-the-mountains/

It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 16, 2019, 02:35:20 PM


It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

Well so many things are coming to light since the fall of the The Soviet Union and also the beginning of The World Wide Web. I havnt seen that You Tube story that you mention but I have seen many many articles in the last few years that point to something unusual going on and has been going on for a very long time. Strange Creatures and UFO's and other unusual activity. Now an interesting one this, EVIDENCE. Evidence can take many forms. An eye witness account of something can be called EVIDENCE. How many Crimes have been solved with just an EYE WITNESS. Something to think about. Regarding those Dyatlov Bodies you mention, the AUTOPSY REPORTS did not seem very thorough to Me  !  ?  Like some things were omitted ! ? Not very detailed Autopsy Reports considering the IMPORTANCE of this EVENT.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 16, 2019, 03:30:40 PM


It is an interesting story.  So many disappearances and eye witness sightings.  I have read stories where the creature is very cautious, keeping its distance from humans.  And other stories where the creatures gain confidence slowly approaching and becoming progressively more aggressive.  Kind of like testing the water to understand if the humans are a threat. 

It's interesting that there are so many stories from a varied array of people and yet no evidence.   Have you seen the you tube video about Dr Mathew Johnsons encounter at the Oregon caves?  It's in two parts.  Whether he saw a big foot or now he certainly believes that he saw one.  Worth a watch.  He suffers post traumatic stress from his experience and re-lives the fear each time he tells the tale.  Difficult to fake those emotions.

Wrt to the Dyatlov case I am looking for objective evidence or at least clues as to where to look.  Could there still be evidence today?

Given modern forensic science I think the bodies of Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo may hold significant clues to what happened.  Could do with some "cold case" investigators on the DPI.  The bones could reveal a lot of information:

Were the injuries caused by:

A fall (possible)

Applied slow pressure and crushing (unlikely) given the double fracture lines but not impossible

An impact from a melee attack ( again unlikely even from a yeti). I think even an 8 to 10 foot hominid would struggle to generate 2.5 tonnes of force from a hand

A large round smoothish 150 to 300 kg bolder dropped from about 1 to 2 metres - actually this one may be credible for the legendary Yeti.  Probably even 2 humans.  I'm not sure how much discussion there has been on heavy bolders falling onto them?

Regards

Star man

Well so many things are coming to light since the fall of the The Soviet Union and also the beginning of The World Wide Web. I havnt seen that You Tube story that you mention but I have seen many many articles in the last few years that point to something unusual going on and has been going on for a very long time. Strange Creatures and UFO's and other unusual activity. Now an interesting one this, EVIDENCE. Evidence can take many forms. An eye witness account of something can be called EVIDENCE. How many Crimes have been solved with just an EYE WITNESS. Something to think about. Regarding those Dyatlov Bodies you mention, the AUTOPSY REPORTS did not seem very thorough to Me  !  ?  Like some things were omitted ! ? Not very detailed Autopsy Reports considering the IMPORTANCE of this EVENT.
[/quote]

The autopsy reports don't seem to dig deep enough.  It's almost as if they had already decided what had happened to them before they started.

Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?  Semyon and Thibo were dressed with shoes on.  They were probably on duty that night.  If there wasmsomethingnoutside the tent then these two would have most likely been the first to hear it or become aware of it.  What would they do?  Grab a flashlight and go outside carefully checking to look for wild animals?  If they saw a Yeti what would they do?  Make a lot of noise I imagine using some colourful language.  Maybe they would run, the flight response triggered.  The commotion would certainly wake those in the tent if they were sleeping.  The people in the tent are less well dressed.  Rustem attempts to put his boots on but escapes the tent before he can grab his second boot.  They make their way down the slope.  Could they run given that they have no shoes, the slope is steep and slippery, it's dark and the snow is fairly deep?  Probably difficult to run.  This doesn't mean that they don't hurry as fast they can?

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 17, 2019, 08:51:55 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 19, 2019, 05:48:56 AM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 19, 2019, 05:53:48 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 08:35:58 AM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.
[/quote]

True but could do with evidence that they left in haste .  The clothes is a good indicator but it doesn’t rule out that they could have been forced to leave without clothes?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 08:42:57 AM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.

Agree that we should not assume that the alleged Yeti was involved.  This needs to be an objective analysis of the theory allowing the suspension of disbelief. 

I am just looking for better evidence either for or against.

I may suggest controversial claims for the sake of the argument though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 09:04:02 AM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 19, 2019, 04:23:30 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 20, 2019, 01:57:55 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 20, 2019, 05:04:52 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 21, 2019, 11:46:45 PM
Some further thoughts on Thibo’s head injury:

The shape of the injury is quite clear with a distinct rounded perimeter. Slightly elliptical in shape.  If the depression of the injury ranges from 1cm to 3cm then it would mean that the radius of curvature at the point where the injury occurred would be between 6cm and 13cm.  So what could have credibly caused the injury:

1. A fall onto a Rock - Yes
2. Hit with a rock - yes
3. Rock dropped onto head - yes
4. Hit with blunt object - yes
5. Hit with rounded weapon - yes
6. Skull crushed between hands - only by something immensely strong.

Unfortunately there is nothing that can be completely ruled out just looking at the head injury alone.

If you consider the comments from the autopsy the lack of soft tissue damage is interesting. This combined with the lack of injuries to hands, wrists might lower the possibility of a fall.  But Thibo had 2 thick hats on.  Another key point is that Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon all had serious injuries which would significantly increase the likelihood of a violent attack,

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:17:01 AM
Have made a minor amendment to the above post. I had written the diameter rather than the radius. Now corrected.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:48:17 AM
Thibo’s head injury taken in isolation doesn’t reveal anything astonishing.  However when considered holistically with the rav 4.  There are some interesting observations:

1. At least one of the rav four had a knife. This was used to remove clothing from their dead friends at the cedar.

2. The autopsy reports mentions nothing about rope marks on their ankles and wrists, indicating that they were not tied up or restrained.

3. Three of the group had significant injuries.  Any one of which could be explained by a significant fall.  But all three together and with no damage to wrists or ankles is very unlikely (unless they were all unconscious) which is even more unlikely.  This would point to an act of violence by someone or something.

4.  Although Thibo’s head injury could have been caused by another person using a blunt instrument, Semyon and Lyuda’s injuries would have taken a force beyond that which any human could muster.  I think is safe to exclude explosions too as there would be cuts from small pieces of debris and possibly scorch marks. There is no evidence of any explosion.

5. If they were not constrained and had a knife why would their attackers use primitive methods of attack?  The rav four were not stabbed, shot. Or cut by any blade.

It would seem to me that if they were attacked, then whatever/whoever attacked them was also the same thing that drove them from the tent.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:55:31 AM
Lets have another quick look at the cedar.  The two Yuris climbed the tree. Given the injuries to the hands and bruises and abrasions to their bodies and the fact that skin was found on the bark of the tree, does that sound like they were climbing to look for fire wood? Or to make a lookout? Or to find safety?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 06:12:16 AM
No idea....   The skin may have been deposited on the way down leaving any number of reasons to have gone up.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 09:11:29 AM
No idea....   The skin may have been deposited on the way down leaving any number of reasons to have gone up.

True. It’s a good point.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 11:46:38 AM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 02:59:03 PM


Looking for evidence is interesting.  There are key facts, but multiple possibilities that could fit those facts making it difficult to solve.  Also, space and time.  There is no time stamp on the events so apart from one or two sequences it's difficult to know exactly what happened and when.  Do they all leave the tent together or in groups?  Who went where and with who.  It's complicated.

One aspect I have been thinking about is evidence of "haste", and the placing this into context for the Yeti theory:

Did they leave the tent in haste?    I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

Is there any other indication of haste?

Regards

Star man

The Evidence problem is a very difficult one. May be one day more Evidence will come to light. As for Evidence of HASTE, well it looks like they left the Tent in a fair hurry, because of the indications re clothing and all the stuff they left behind in the Tent. Well I suppose in those weather conditions if you leave a Tent you are exposing yourself to a greater danger. We dont know the EXACT weather conditions when they left the Tent. By all accounts the weather can change dramatically in those regions in a very short time.

True but could do with evidence that they left in haste .  The clothes is a good indicator but it doesn’t rule out that they could have been forced to leave without clothes?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

Well HASTE means leaving in a hurry, getting a move on as opposed to going slowly.  We dont know why they left in a hurry. They could have been forced or they could have been scared. In that respect we have no evidence.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:10:23 PM
Some more thoughts on Thibo’s head Injuries.

The large rain drop shaped skull crush injury is accompanied by the longer fracture around to the front of the skull.  Given that a typical head weighs about 5 to 6 kg, it would probably take a significant fall to cause that level of damage.  Probably a fall greater than that which could be credible on the pass.  Looking at the injury more closely it appears as if whatever caused the rain drop shaped crush also continued to apply continued force to right side of the skull initiating and propagating the long fracture.  Is such an injury more consistent with a large heavy rock being dropped on his head thus allowing the continued application of force to the head between the rock and the ground?

Regards

Star man

I think some of the injuries could easily have been caused by a BEAR. But Iam not saying that a BEAR caused those injuries. Also on the subject of strange creatures like the alleged YETI, then I would have thought such a creature could also have caused those injuries. And again Iam not saying that a YETI caused those injuries.

Agree that we should not assume that the alleged Yeti was involved.  This needs to be an objective analysis of the theory allowing the suspension of disbelief. 

I am just looking for better evidence either for or against.

I may suggest controversial claims for the sake of the argument though.

Regards

Star man

Well its going to be difficult regarding evidence for the Yeti Theory. All we have is sightings and experiences from other places and other times. We cant do DNA tests because we have no TENT or CLOTHES from any of the Dyatlov Group. And we have no other OBJECTS as far as I know  !  ? What happened to all the EQUIPMENT  !  ?  In any case of potential MURDER or unusual circumstances the Authorities of any Country would be likely to keep some OBJECTS for the future in case of progress in FORENSICS. But not it appears the Russian Authorities dealing with the Dyatlov Case.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:16:42 PM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man

That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:31:32 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man

Interesting. I think we need to look at other injuries on other Dyatlov Bodies to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in those injuries. I post this link again for food for thought.   https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:34:07 PM
Thibo’s head injury taken in isolation doesn’t reveal anything astonishing.  However when considered holistically with the rav 4.  There are some interesting observations:

1. At least one of the rav four had a knife. This was used to remove clothing from their dead friends at the cedar.

2. The autopsy reports mentions nothing about rope marks on their ankles and wrists, indicating that they were not tied up or restrained.

3. Three of the group had significant injuries.  Any one of which could be explained by a significant fall.  But all three together and with no damage to wrists or ankles is very unlikely (unless they were all unconscious) which is even more unlikely.  This would point to an act of violence by someone or something.

4.  Although Thibo’s head injury could have been caused by another person using a blunt instrument, Semyon and Lyuda’s injuries would have taken a force beyond that which any human could muster.  I think is safe to exclude explosions too as there would be cuts from small pieces of debris and possibly scorch marks. There is no evidence of any explosion.

5. If they were not constrained and had a knife why would their attackers use primitive methods of attack?  The rav four were not stabbed, shot. Or cut by any blade.

It would seem to me that if they were attacked, then whatever/whoever attacked them was also the same thing that drove them from the tent.

Regards
Star man

Yes we need to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in the whole Dyatlov Case.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:37:32 PM
Lets have another quick look at the cedar.  The two Yuris climbed the tree. Given the injuries to the hands and bruises and abrasions to their bodies and the fact that skin was found on the bark of the tree, does that sound like they were climbing to look for fire wood? Or to make a lookout? Or to find safety?

Regards
Star man

I would say it looks like they were trying to get away from something. A last desperate attempt to escape from some ENTITY.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 22, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101.

But why choose that particular tree to climb when there were other SIBERIAN PINE TREES all around, and easier to get at as far as getting the branches suitable for burning   !  ?  Why choose a tall tree like that ! ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 04:28:40 PM
In my opinion, they may have simply needed dry firewood.  In these conditions, everything on the ground is water-logged and subsequently frozen.  It makes more sense to collect dry dead branches still attached to a tree.   After you have a good bed of hot coals, it's possible to thaw and dry wood from the ground, but they didn't get that far.  No, they HAD to have dry wood still attached to a tree to have any chance of getting a fire going.

This is like camping 101.

It is possible that they could have scrambled up the tree in desperation even to get fire wood.  If they were freezing to death and the only dry fire wood was on the cedar then the wood becomes a matter of life and death?

I think the cedar is worth considering in more detail to understand it objectively in the context of this particular theory.

Here is something to think about and worth discussing:

Would you agree that there is a fair amount of evidence that Yuris D climbed the cedar? - moss and pine needles in his hair, cuts, bruises and abrasions on his body and particularly around arm pits.  It's unlikely that he got those abrasions and bruises in those locations while descending the slope?

Now, we don't know exactly who was at the cedar and when.  Yuris D and Yuris K were there.  Some of the other group members may have been there earlier on, or not until later when the clothes were removed.

What we do know however, is that not everybody would "need" to climb the tree to collect the dry wood.  It would only take one person to climb, and break down the branches and throw them to the ground.

We also know from the autopsy reports that Yuris D had severe frost bite on his fingers and toes.  So much so that it is said that if he had survived he would have needed his toes and fingers amputated.

So the first question: did Yuris D sustain the severe frost bite before or after the fire was lit?

Probably before?  If the fire was lit before the frost bite then he shouldn't really have gotten the frost bite.

But if he had severe frost bite before the fire was lit then he probably wasn't the best choice of person to collect fire wood from the cedar.  So why would he climb the tree?

If he and Yuris K were the only ones at the cedar then Yuri K would be better placed to climb the tree and pull the dry wood down?  If there were other members of the group there then most of them would be more capable of climbing and collecting the wood.  But for some reason Yuri D still climbed the tree with frost bitten fingers and toes so severe that they would require amputation?

Or was there another reason for climbing the tree with severely frost bitten fingers and toes?

Are there any other explanations?

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 07:00:40 PM
I think you lose feeling in your fingers long before you actually get the frostbite, so I wouldn't imagine him 'not' being able to climb the cedar just prior to frostbite. The fire seems very insufficient and likely unable to do much, especially with a fair wind.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 22, 2019, 11:27:57 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 22, 2019, 11:31:44 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 22, 2019, 11:41:52 PM
I think you lose feeling in your fingers long before you actually get the frostbite, so I wouldn't imagine him 'not' being able to climb the cedar just prior to frostbite. The fire seems very insufficient and likely unable to do much, especially with a fair wind.

If he had lost the feeling (and strength) in his fingers.  It would be difficult for him to climb the cedar tree without help.  So if he was in the cedar it is possible he was hauled up it by his friends which would explain all the abrasions?  I think the two Yuris had already lost too much body heat before the fire was lit. Or maybe they were forced to wait in the cedar frightened to climb down?

Either way it is odd that Yuri D both had severe frost bite and climbed the tree.
Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on July 22, 2019, 11:56:47 PM
Part of the mystery...  But I like the way you think.    thumb1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 23, 2019, 04:07:11 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

Pressure of 450kg sounds like a lot, but the test was performed with almost no acceleration which requires much more force compared to a direct impact with blunt object. The other thing ist the area of impact (smaller area of impact is more likely to cause the fracture). It is possible to inflict such injury with human powers as it happened before in combat sports or even football.

Chelsea goalkeeper sustained a similar fracture some years ago by being hit by the knee or shinguard of the opposition player.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2300976/Champions-League-final-Graphic-MRI-scans-of-Petr-Cechs-head-injury-published.html

The 450kg would be the static force yes.  I would say there will be some variability - possibly +/- 100kg,.  Will vary from person to person.  Also dynamic loads/forces such as being hit with a blunt object or blunt weapon, or falling and hitting head against something hard would not require something with a mass of 450 kg.  I am looking into some Of these possibilities.

Yes it probably is possible for a human to inflict this kind of injury.  Some of the worlds strongest men could probably do it by crushing the skill with their bare hands even.  But applying dynamic loads would be easier.

When I have some more data I'll post it.

Regards

Star man

Interesting. I think we need to look at other injuries on other Dyatlov Bodies to build up a picture of NON HUMAN involvement in those injuries. I post this link again for food for thought.   https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Yes I am kind of looking into the injuries to assess how they could have happened.

The link you provided seems to support my calculations on the skull crush injury.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 23, 2019, 04:17:33 AM
Part of the mystery...  But I like the way you think.    thumb1

There is some potential for irrational decision making given the circumstances on the pass. I suppose there might not be a logical explanation for everything but we can only dig and speculate.

I have a couple of other potentially  interesting and controversial thoughts in relation to this topic but I will keep hold of them for now and do a bit more research before discussing them.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 24, 2019, 08:51:22 AM
Ok this is just an observation and it is definitely a little controversial.

First I want you to think about holding a football in your hands with one hand either side. Now imagine yourself trying to squeeze the football as hard as you can.  You could actually try it but be careful not to do yourself an injury.  Which part of your hands do you use to ensure you can apply the most pressure?

Now look at the shape of that part of your hand.  Are you looking at the ball of your thumb? Now look at the shape of the crush injury on Thibeaux-Brignolle’s skull.

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.

Of course there could be other things that could cause a skull fracture shape like that which I am investigating.

Regards

Star man

Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 24, 2019, 01:54:08 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 24, 2019, 01:56:20 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 24, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
Have been looking at Rustems head injury in a bit more detail:

In the autopsy report it explains that there are diffuse haemorrhages into "both" temporal muscles.  Now Rustem's fracture looks like it begins from the left temporal region, but he also has a very similar injury on the opposite side of his head.  Now Thibo's autopsy report clearly mentions the haemorrhage on the same side of the crush injury, but nothing about the other side of his head.  Is this because there is nothing to report, or is it because the report focuses more specifically on the obvious significant injury?  I would have thought that for an autopsy report that everything is important to catalogue?  But the reports for the Dyatlov group do seem to be lacking in some respects.

It is possible that Rustem slowly succumbs to the cold and repeatedly falls hitting his head and resulting in the fracutre.  He has lots of minor abrasions on his face that would point to this.  It is also possible that he has sustained blows to both sides of his head.  What I find odd though is that both these injuries are almost directly opposite each other.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 02:07:58 AM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 02:09:36 AM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 04:47:39 AM
Further thoughts on Rustem skull fracture and a pattern that is becoming more clear with the injuries of the rav 4:

Rustem injury to his head could have been caused by him first being knocked to the floor and subsequently receiving a heavy blow to the right hand side of his head in the temporal region.  If his head was slightly raised then the blow would knock the right side of his head against the floor thus sustaining both the fracture on the left and diffuse bleeding in the right temporal muscle.  The scratches on his face are consistent with being dragged by his leg.

Now let’s look at Lyuda.  Significant soft tissue damage to face and eye lids, lips and tissue loss .  Again this is consistent with being dragged around violently by her leg.  The rib fractures could have been caused by two significant blows to the thorax.  Each fracture would have required 800kg of force and possibly even a bit more.  Saying that Lyuda May have suffered many more less powerful blows but probably not.

Semyon shows the same pattern of tissue loss around eye brows a significant laceration on his head and the heavy blow to the ribs causing a flail chest.

Thibo- as well as the ball of the thumb being the same shape as his crush injury- so is bottom of the side of hand (at base of little finger.

There appears to a pattern there.  It looks like they were first knocked to the ground. Worried or dragged- some more than others and beaten by someone or something very very powerful - using more force than any normal human being could generate.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 04:59:37 AM
The puzzle at the tent:

Why did the tourists frantically leave the tent- not stopping to collect essential clothing shoes and equipment- and then calmly walk down the slope?  It doesn’t make sense.  Yet the foot prints suggest this is what happened?

So let me ask you a question:

The group are disturbed by something outside the tent.  Something very unusual and realise there is some kind of dangerous creature outside.  In fear they leave the tent and are confronted by this very dangerous creature.  Now here is the question.  Do you:

A - run away down the slope screaming as you go?
B - move away slowly and quietly away from the creature and down the slope?

No need to actually answer- just think about it.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 05:49:59 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 08:31:46 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 08:36:48 AM
The camera and the knife:

The rav four must have had a knife? To cut the clothes off their dead friends and cut the branches for the den.  So what happened to the knife.  Did it just walk off by itself?

Semyon camera - found still hanging around his neck.  Why would human murders just leave it?  And where are the 9 missing frames?

Of course if the murderer was a Yeti I doubt it would be interested in a camera?

Regards
Star man



Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 25, 2019, 12:07:13 PM


Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 25, 2019, 03:32:49 PM


Hi Gypsy,

Yes I the injuries could be caused by the same weapon too, but could it not have been a very large powerful hand?

Zina was only swiped.  The others were beaten to death?

Regards
Star man

I don't mean to be specific about the "weapon". It could be anything. It is just natural to assume that people who found their demise at the same place and time have a common cause of death.

I will ask a question. Do you thing that the injuries were intentional or accidential?
I'm not looking for a straight answer, I'd rather hear what speaks for or against one or another.

Hi Gypsy,

It depends on the context of the question.  I believ the whole thing was unintentional.  But the specific injuries were intentional, but not with intelligent malign.

I believe that I now know what happened on the pass.  And I will present my views in a new topic under general discussion called

"what really happened on the pass"

Regards

Star man
I now believe that the injuries were intentional.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 27, 2019, 04:48:05 PM
When I started this thread I didn't actually think that I would discover anything of interest, but I wanted to do this topic justice and approach it in an objective way.  I was a skeptic of the Yeti theory.  But I am no where near as skeptical now as when I started this thread.

I think there is clear evidence that the Dyatlov group were attacked by an ape(s) or an ape like creature.  The feedback I have received on whether a normal ape would be capable of overwhelming 9 fit healthy tourists is reasonable.  Given that there were axes, ice picks, knives and 9 physically fit and strong people why could they not have killed or at least driven a normal ape away?  Also why would a normal ape be on Kholat Syakhl in a storm in the middle of nowhere?  Yet the injuries sustained by at least some of the group are consistent with an attack from an ape,like creature.  A creature capable of inflicting immensely powerful blows.  A creature that had hands.

In previous posts ai have made some calculations around the hands of this creature.  Thibo's head injury shape is consistent with shape of the pads of the hand.  Either the ball of the thumb, or the pad on the side of the hand where the little finger is.  The radius of curvature of the injury on Thibo's head is consistent with the radius of curvature of the pad of the hand.  The force required to cause Thibo's head injury is beyon that which a human being can muster with their bare hands.

The pattern of injuries on Lyuda and Semyon is consistent with some kind of ape attack.  The blows required to inflict those injuries would need to be in excess of 800kg force.  The pattern of damage to the head and face and loss of soft tissue is consistent with being dragged around the ground violently.  And yes Luda's eyes, tongue and Semyon's eyes could well have been ripped out by this creature, either during the assault or later after they had died.

With regard to the Yeti - what could be a myth is the size of their feet, and whether they are entirely bipedal or partly quadrupeds.  If they are partly quadrupeds then their feet would not require to be that large as their weight would also be taken up by their hands as they moved about.  However, the shape of their feet may be very close to humans.

Rustems head injury is also consistent with the same type of attack but to a lesser severity.

It seems zina and Dyatlov avoided a fatal confrontation with this creature, but died of hypothermia.

Yuris D definitely climbed the cedar in desperation to find safety.  He probably clanged onto this tree for some time as his fingers and toes were so frost bitten by the time the fire was lit that hemwouldnhave had to have them amputated.

The witness statements say that when the group were descending the slope, some of the group members split off for a while and then came back to join the main group.  This is odd.  Why would they do that?  Unless those that split off were not group members, or even human.  Instead is it possible that they were ape like creatures, stalking the terrified group as they descended the slope, while periodically moving toward them and attacking them as descended? Initially, the group would have been strong and maybe capable of defending themselves, but as time went by the cold played its part, and slowly the group became weaker until they could not longer fend off any attacks?

When I examine a theory I like to find evidence to support it.  Some the evidence is presented in previous posts on this thread.  But there is something else that could be done:

1.  I would suggest that an expert Primatologist examines any available photographs of the foot prints.  Also, an expert Primatologist consider the pattern of injuries and the power required to inflict them.

For Lyuda's injury I have estimated a force in excess of 800kgs.  I don't even think a Chimpanzee can inflict such sever injury or generate such force.  A mountain Gorilla maybe, but even this would probably be at the limit of what it could do.  Also chimps and Gorillas are normally gentle creatures unless deliberately provoked.  So what was on the pass that night?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: NkZ on July 28, 2019, 05:17:53 AM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 28, 2019, 10:02:26 AM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

I am a lot more receptive to it than I was.  I would like to know if a normal great ape could cause those injuries?

Thanks for the links.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 30, 2019, 05:57:14 AM
The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:52:16 PM
Some further digging on Thibo's skull crush injury:

I found the following paper online:

http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc13/pdf_files/54.pdf

I can't testify to the authenticity of the above paper but it appears credible as a technical reference.

Based on the findings of this paper Thibo's crush injury would have taken a static force in the region of 450kg.  Possibly even higher than this given the multiple fracture pattern and fragmentation and also the propagated fractures.

Regards

Star man

In other words no Human hands could have crushed the Skull.

https://www.sciencealert.com/game-of-thrones-exposed-the-science-of-skull-crushing

Actually, quite the opposite. Static force vs. dynamic force. I provided the example that completely dismisses above claim about "no human hands could have crushed the skull". As it happened before even unintentionally, it is possible.

I think you will find plenty of evidence that suggests that NO HUMAN HANDS could crush another Humans Skull.

It is enough to find ONE piece of evidence that it is possible to prove that wrong. I provided an article along with X.ray scans of similar fracture caused by kicking with a knee.

Here we have some more, it is about time to retract your statement, use google to find even more examples: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/mma/bellator-158-evangelista-cyborg-santos-video-fractured-skull-michael-venom-page-flying-knee-knockout-a7142211.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952091/Teenager-fractured-19-year-old-s-skull-single-punch-victim-asked-light-McDonald-s-SPARED-prison.html

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/10831229_Punched_With_A_Fist_The_Etiology_of_a_Fatal_Depressed_Cranial_Fracture

One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:54:48 PM
That sounds interesting. Same hands or hands attached to arms that could have crushed Dubinina's chest maybe. No human could cause those type of Chest injuries.

That is a very bold statement with no factual basis. Rib fractures are often inflicted y manual resuscitation so I see no reason that even 8-9 ribs could have been broken by for example stomping on person's chest while lying down on the floor. The force equals attaker weight multiplied by acceleration. This is very basic medical knowledge.

https://www.primemedicaltraining.com/does-cpr-break-ribs/

No suggestion of Human Involvement in those Injuries in the original Investigation and Autopsy  !  ?

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no cause mentioned at all which leaves all technically plausible options on the table.

You contradict yourself then. All the possible causes must be relevant even if not proved.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 12:57:32 PM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on July 30, 2019, 01:16:05 PM
I've always been sentimental on the possibility of Yeti, even if demographic statistics are not in favor!
There is indeed a long history of sightings in the area : http://www.alamas.ru/eng/publicat/Tracks_near_Ob_e.htm
http://www.stgr-primates.de/news.html
So many legends might have a little real ground?

Well done digging up this information.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 30, 2019, 11:41:44 PM
The Dyatlov pass incident is  a complicated mystery. For certain whatever happened that night was unusual.

Identifying the single common denominator that could help explain the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, and the ravine along with the strange injuries may go some way to help solve the mystery.

I now believe that the single common denominator could well be the involvement of an ape or ape like creature.  I have presented my thoughts on this below:

The Tent
Whatever made the group leave the tent without adequate clothing or shoes the way they did must have been terrifying and a significant threat to their lives.  The tent appears to have been cut from inside (at least for three of the cuts). Page 303 of the case files provides good evidence of this.  I suspect that much of the damage though was done during the recovery of the tent.

So what happened at the tent?  Semyon grabs his camera.  If he had seen something strange like an ape on Kholat Syakhl that would be a reasonable reason to grab a camera and try to take a photo.  Maybe he or the others did not realise the danger at first. But then whatever it was became aggressive and attacked them.

I suspect that some of them ran back into the tent and were followed by this creature which now blocked their only means of escape. Kolevatov may have pulled his knife from its sheath outside and then retreated into the tent.  Those in the tent then attempted to cut the fabric to make a new exit while others tried to fend off the attacker.  There is evidence that the group engaged in some kind of fight with their hands.  Why the axes or ice pick were left at the entrance is difficult to explain but could simply be because of the level of panic.

After leaving the now damaged tent the group cautiously retreat down the slope.  Note that the foot prints of an ape are similar to that of a human but the big toe is more thumb like and would be shorter.

The slope

There is evidence that while they descended the slope they were attacked again.  The flash light 400m from the tent was dropped but not picked back up indicating confusion, haste, or fear of returning to where the flash light was dropped.  The group had items of equipment that other humans would unlikely allow them to take with them if their attackers had been human - knife, flashlight, camera, matches.  The whole scene indicates that they were under duress but not from any human foe.


Rustem probably didn’t make it to the cedar.  It appears that he was attacked and fought back.  His injuries are consistent with a fist fight and receiving a heavy blow to the head while he was on the ground. The diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles is an indicator of this.

When the group get to the cedar there is clear evidence that they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The scrapes, minor lacerations around arm pits is an indicator of this plus the skin found on the bark.  But the main clue is Yuri D who’s fingers and toes were so badly frost bitten that he would have needed to have them amputated if he had survived.  This must have happened before the fire was lit indicating that Yuri D was clinging to the tree for a while along with Yuri K who had bit a piece of skin off the back of his hand.

The fire was probably lit to keep warm and also to keep something away.  But whenever it was lit it was too late for Yuri D and Yuri K.

The ravine

Thibo’s head injury is the same shape as the pad of a hand.  The force required to cause that injury would be in excess of 450kg.  No human could do that with their bare hands.  The lack of soft tissue damage is also supported by an impact From something soft  like the pad of a hand but with tremendous force.  Thibo’s head injury if happened in isolation could be explained by a fall, but combined with Lyuda and Semyon it indicates something more sinister and akin to them being attacked and beaten by something with super human strength.  Lyuda and Semyon injuries could also be explained by a fall.  The force required to cause Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries from a single impact would be 2500 kg, but the lack of injuries to limbs, ankles and wrists is unusual.  Together there is a clear pattern that they have been attacked, knocked to the ground dragged around violently and beaten severely again with super human force.

The signs of hand to hand combat combined with these injuries is clear evidence of confrontation with something very powerful.

Another key indicator of a confrontation with some kind of powerful animal is the fact that although the group had at least one knife the attacker has used primitive methods (ie beaten them to death). 

Regards
Star man

There is something missing from the above picture.  When apes attack quite often they bite.  Chimpanzees in particular like to bite off the fingers of their foe (charming).  Gorillas also bite.  Yet there is no evidence of any bite injuries on any of the Dyatlov group.  Or at least none reported.  Chimpanzees also have a fondness of mutilating the face of their victims. 

The other issue is the level of aggression.  Chimpanzees form so called war parties in the wild and go on the rampage attacking other chimp groups or hunting monkeys.

However the level of aggression on the pass if normal apes were involved is somewhat odd.

Could the attacker have been more intelligent than a normal ape?  More research is required on this I think.

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on July 31, 2019, 03:30:25 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on July 31, 2019, 11:46:41 PM
In the case files it talks about a blanket being placed over the two Yuris?  Any idea how this blanket got there?  Or why it was placed on the Yuris given it would have been useful resource for keeping warm?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on August 01, 2019, 01:47:24 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 01, 2019, 04:24:11 PM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on August 02, 2019, 12:22:22 PM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 03, 2019, 02:10:31 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

Hi Gypsy,

I think it is possible to fracture the skull with a fist/punch but from what I have read it is right at the limit of what is possible for a professional heavy weight boxer.  A boxer can generate up to 500kg of force with a punch.  I have calculated the force to cause Thibo's skull fracture which was at least 450kg +\- variance.  This is backed up by other data on the net.  I am less sure about such an injury being caused by a knee.  I haven't done exhaustive research on this.

What is interesting to me though is the distinctive shape of Thibo's skull fracture and the lack of soft tissue damage.  Thibo's skull crush injury is kind of rain drop shaped.  I don't think that this would correspond very well with being hit with a first and irregular knuckles.  But I might be wrong.  Also not sure about the shape a knee would make.  However, what I do know is:

The shape of Thibo's fracture is pretty much "identical" to the shape of the pad of the ball of a thumb.

I made some measurements myself by making a thumb print with the ball of my own thumb and measuring the dimensions.  Now the shape my thumb print made was the same.  The shape is more or less an ellipse.  I measured the major and minor axis of my own print and took the ratio of major/minor axis ratio ( I.e length over width) and got the following results:

My thumb print = 1.25
Thibo's injury = 1.28

Try it yourself.  Will be interested in your result.

The difference is the size of the imprint/injury on Thibo's skull is much bigger.  I scaled it up based on my own hand and got a hand 30cm long and 15ish wide.  Obviously if Thibo's injury was caused by the application of static pressure by squeezing then that would also explain the lack of soft riddle damage.  A high speed impact, especially with a hard blunt object you might expect some soft tissue damage.

I also measured the pad of my own hand at the side under the little finger to see if that was the same shape.  The shape looked very similar but was more elongated, with major/minor axis ratio of 1.75. So not the same shape.

Thibo's head injury - if it happened in isolation might draw one to conclude that it could have been a fall.  And this is true.  But, the other injuries of Lyuda and Semyon are equally as astonishing in terms of the pattern and force.  A hand 30cm long impacting the ribs with a force in excess of 800kg could have caused those injuries.  It takes between 270 and 330 kg of force to break a single rib.  But to create a clean fracture line rough multiple ribs requires a single blow of very high force - beyond that which a human could deliver.  Note a human could break ribs, but the breaks would be irregular.  Have a look at them and think about it.

What is odd is the lack of any bite marks.  If the attack was animalistic in nature then there should be bite marks too - but nothing obvious.

Regards

Star man

Are these measurements for static o dynamic force? In case of the latter, the force should be divided by acceleration which gives us more "human" results.

I agree that the most common cause of the flail chest or multiple rib fracture is a sudden deceleration or impact (such as car crash) or a fall. However, it is possible it is possible to "achieve" the same result with CPR / cardio-pulmonary resuscitation by applying repetitive pressure so the bone "wears out" until it breaks. Most of the cases include older patients of people with thinner bones like females or children or with lower mineral content of the bone tissue. We do not have enough forensic data from the victims so cannot calculate the exact force needed to break specific bones, I can only provide the examples of the documented cases and none of them include other than human involvement or one of the most common causes already mentioned.

As for the shape of the injuries, yes it fits the shape of a rather enlarged areas of the hand you described and I see nothing wrong at all to explore that option (among others). But do you think if there was a fight, no matter if between humans and/or apes, that would be the kind of area that does the most damage upon impact? I mean there are better ways to do do it such as punching, hitting with a knee or elbow, the ape would probably bite. I am not an expert on that, I would be happy to hear an opinion of somebody who knows how the chimpanzees or related species fight.

Am I wrong or Tibo was wearing two hats at the time of death? That would prevent the bruises for some time and spread the force a little so the area of impact would appear larger than it really was. Also the cold would suppress the creation of a bruise. There can be hardly any bruise in case a smooth-surface weapon, such as baseball bat, is used on the area of head covered by winter hat.

https://dergipark.org.tr/download/article-file/733978

Fractures of ribs 3, 4, 5, 6 caused only by CPR which is hardly 800kg of force, doctors and nurses do it every day and they are no bodybuilders or Anthony Joshuas: http://jtd.amegroups.com/article/viewFile/26057/pdf

The forces are just those required to cause the fractures.  They could be generated by either static or dynamic processes.  High static force is more difficult to generate than high dynamic force. So for instance the 500 kg force produced by a boxers punch is dynamic force.  I doubt a boxer could generate 500 kg of static force.  Hope that makes sense? 

For the flail chest injuries I am not familiar with CPR examples.  Lyuda and Semyon were young and fit though so are there examples of the same injuries for young fit people?  The other question I have on this is can CPR or repative application of force create the double fracture lines?  I'm not an expert on the medical side.

The shape of Thibo's skull fracture is interesting though.  I suppose it could just be a coincidence but there aren't many data points to compare things with.

I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:40:18 AM

Scaling up those dimensions in terms of a typical human hand would give you a hand 12 inches long and about 6 inches wide.


Just another observation relevant to the above post:

Zina long bruise.  29 cm long or about 12 inches.  Coincidence?

Regards
Star man

I think it's highly plausible that the same 'weapon' inflicted the injuries to the people in the same area. However, it is hard to determine what that was from evidence we have. In case of Tibo, the cap probably prevented soft tissue damage and even on other bodies we cannot see the hemorrhage developed properly due to cold conditions.

Just from observation, I think it would be much easier to inflict that kind of damage by foot (especially the rib fractures) rather than hands. Seems too inefficient to do that with hands as long as easier way exists.

And yet the original Investigation suggests injuries likened to a CAR CRASH. Hardly the work of someones foot then.

That is an example, not a conclusion. Not to mention there is no data such as speed, mechanism of impact or anything.

Well exactly. Its not a conclusion because the Authorities intimate that the Dyatlov Group were overcome by an unknown force. So it that respect its any ones  guess.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:44:37 AM


One injury was due to a KNEE. The other was due to an old injury made worse by the blow to the head with a FIST. Nothing about Heads being crushed by Human HANDS  !  ?

In other words it is possible under specific circumstances. "Bare hands" narrative is irrelevant as there are simple ways to do it otherwise /knee, elbow, tactical gloves, blunt object etc. which means a (powerful enough) human can cause a skull fracture and no entities of questionable existence are needed to explain the injuries at all.

PS. Fist=bare hands, no difference there

The injuries to Dubinina's Chest Ribs are highly unlikely to have been caused by another Human. And its highly unlikely that other injuries were caused by another Human.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 03, 2019, 10:51:23 AM
Re Starman ; I think the key question in terms of this discussion is whether what happened was a result of humans or some kind of ape or ape like creature - dare I say the legendary Yeti?  I think the overall context of the events is just as important as the specific clues.

What are the indicators that they were attacked by humans vs some other odd creature in terms of:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine


Regards

Star man
Regards

Yes exactly. We have to take all the separate PARTS that make up the one big EVENT. The big EVENT being that the Dyatlov Group died under very mysterious circumstances     by an overwhelming and unknown force.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 05, 2019, 05:14:11 PM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 09, 2019, 05:15:18 PM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 10, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man

Good points about FOOTPRINTS. Why no more photos of such vital evidence  !  ?  Unless of course there are more photos, but not for public consumption. After all what if someone had taken photos of extremely large un Human FOOTPRINTS.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 10, 2019, 11:53:13 AM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man

I also agree that Non Human Force was used. Question is what was the Force from  !  ?  Yeti ? Bear ? Alien ? Some other unknown physical Force ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
Have recently been reading the  Potyazhenko interview.  Was interested in one of the described radiograms which said that particular attention should be given to the foot prints on the pass.  So where is all the evidence?  There are photographs in the case files but for something that was specifically requetsed to be "particularly important" I would expect more photographs?  Close up shots of the prints? There are witness testimonies too but these are not really of great forensic value.  Where are the measurements of foot sizes so that they can be compared with "known" foot sizes of the Dyatlov group?  The witness statements describe the prints crossing patches of deep snow and then disappearing over rocky stretches thn reappearing again.  Are there any more photographs of the foot prints?

As a side note I have made a few checks on the hands of gorillas.  The reference I found measured the tip of the middle finger to the base of the palm of the hand as 30cm.  They do have very big hands.  This means that Gorillas meet the criteria for the injuries in terms of power and hand size.  Obviously it doesn't rule out the legendary Yeti.  Just means that the Yeti has some competition.

Another side note:  walked past someone on the street today - "human". Although he would have passed for a Yeti.  He was approaching 8 foot tall and had hands the size of shovels.  His foot prints would certainly be mistaken for "big foot".

Regards

Star man

Good points about FOOTPRINTS. Why no more photos of such vital evidence  !  ?  Unless of course there are more photos, but not for public consumption. After all what if someone had taken photos of extremely large un Human FOOTPRINTS.

It doesn't make sense that given specific instructions to focus on the prints that there is so little in the case files?  Why would anyone exclude the details of the prints?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 12:02:52 PM
Just a thought on whether the injuries of the rav 4 could have been inflicted by other humans.  I agree with the autopsy reports that the forces required to inflict those injuries are beyond any human, but even so was thinking about the way the bodies were layer out close together with Kolevatov embracing Semyon.  At face value, it would appear that Kolevatov being the least injured arranged his friends in this way.  If he was the last one of them to die as indicated by his embrace why would any human attackers not finish him off in the same way?  Maybe he was hiding?  Just seems unlikely any human attackers would have missed him and not killed him. 

Regards

Star man



I also agree that Non Human Force was used. Question is what was the Force from  !  ?  Yeti ? Bear ? Alien ? Some other unknown physical Force ?

Extremely unlikely to have been a bear given no bite marks or claw marks on victims. The others are still an option.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 10, 2019, 05:41:27 PM
As strange as it may seem (even to myself) there appears to be a Pattern of events supported by some of the finer details that suggests that the group may have been attacked by a large powerful ape like creature.  The only known species of ape powerful enough to inflict the injuries (as far as I can tell) is a Gorilla.  But if it was a Gorilla then what was it doing on Kholat Syakhl in the middle of the winter?  The other possibility is some unknown creature.

The tent

I think there is clear evidence of panic at the tent.  The scene is chaotic, disorganised.  Students flee without proper outdoor clothing and most without footwear.  There are cuts in the tent made from inside with a knife?  There is a jacket and sneakers left several meters from the tent as if someone grabbed them during their escape only to drop them again shortly afterwards.  There is Kolevatov's knife sheath outside the tent, while his knife is found inside the tent.  Semyon wears a camera around his neck when he leaves the tent, as if something has caught his interest and that something is worthy of a photograph.  Let's not forget the "evening "otorton". Was it planted or does it reflect that one or more of the group had seen something that may have been a Yeti?

The pattern of events at the tent does not lend itself to human involvement.  The students leave in a disorganised way.  Some have boots, some do not, some carry knives which they later use, as well as a flashlight and matches.  Some are better dressed than others.  Nothing is taken from the tent, not even money.  There are no obvious foot prints of any other humans there.  If they had been forced from the tent and sent to their deaths it is unlikely that they would be allowed to leave with knives, flash lights, matches, cameras etc.  it is far more likely that there was something that terrified the students and presented an immediate threat to their lives.  Hence the level of chaos and disarray at the scene.

The slope

The foot prints by all accounts show an orderly decent of the slope.  But why would a group of students leave a tent in a state of panic and then calmly walk down the slop?  Well, if you presented with the threat of a dangerous creature be it a large ape or a Yeti running away is not a sensible thing to do as this would trigger a response in the creature to attack.  Far better to calmly walk away watching your back keeping your head low and trying not to make direct eye contact.  And by the way apes have similar bare foot prints to humans, but also tent to knuckle walk unless it was a bipedal Yeti?  On the slope there is evidence that they were attacked - the dropped flashlight which was important enough to take with them but not important enough to pick up again after it was dropped?  As far as I am aware the flash light was found to be working later during the investigation.  I suspect that during these attacks the students fought off their attacker(s), hence the evidence of brawling, punching and kicking maybe to keep their attacker at distance.  It is possible that they also split up before they got to the cedar, maybe scattered by the attacker or a deliberate act to prevent the attacker being able to follow all of them together.  There is not a lot of evidence either way on this though I think.  Rustem may have been severely beaten by the attacker on the slop.  His head injury coupled with the fact that he had diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles suggest that he took a powerful blow to the head while he was on the ground.  The blow knocked his head to the ground thus he received injuries on opposite sides of the temporal bone, but more severely on the left I believe.  He obviously fought off the attacker as best he could.

The cedar

The two Yuris climbed the cedar, possibly there were others but Yuris D climbed the cedar even though his fingers and toes were frost bitten.  I believe he did this to evade the attacker(s).  If the tree was climbed simply to collect fire wood then others better dressed and with no frost bite (even Yuris K)  could have climbed the tree to collect fire wood.  The skin embedded in the bark of the tree suggests that they did not just climb the tree they scrambled up the tree for safety.  The case files suggest that branches were cleared to make a look out and these branches were not used for the fire.  By the time the fire was lit the two Yuris who were poorly dressed had probably already lost too much body heat and died of hypothermia.  if any of the skin was collected from the tree bark then it may be possible even today to undertake DNA analysis of this to determine who was on the tree.  The removal of the clothing from the Yuris is evidence of a logical and normal will to survive, but the use of the clothing ( not all for insulating their bodies) and the unzipped jackets etc suggests that the cold was not the only major threat or concern. 

The ravine

The main consideration at the ravine are the injuries of the rav 4 and in particular Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon.  Kolevatov who was less seriously injured (apart from his deformed neck?) appears to have been the last one alive, judging by his embrace of Kolevatov.  He probably arranged the injured students lying them beside each other before he himself died of hypothermia.  It strange that if humans had been involved they would leave Kolevatov to live after killing the others?  There violent deaths on the face of it don't seem to be logical. They appear more like random violent attacks which is more consistent with some wild creature that is not looking to particularly kill everyone.  The attacks are more akin to a large ape affirming its dominance and territory.

The injuries themselves are the most interesting.

Thibo's skull injury just happens to be the exact same shape of the pad of the ball of thumb - a very large thumb on a hand that is 30 cm long.  The same size as a large Gorilla or ape hand.  The force required to crush a skull between the hands is over 450kg.  Very very humans are capable of that.  A crush injury using the hands would also explain the lack of any soft tissue damage.  The impact of the head from a fall or a blunt instrument would likely result in some soft tissue damage, but Thibo was wearing two hats.  Thibo had no other major injuries on his body that you might also expect from a fall.   Thibo's injury combined with both Lyuda and Semyon's are very suspicious indeed.  Lyuda flail just, with clean straight fracture lines suggest an impact of tremendous force.  Probably greater tha 800kg and most likely even in excess of that.  But also the damage to facial tissues suggest that Kyuda was dragged violently around on the ground.  The same is true for Senyon but to a slightly lesser extent.  It is extremely unlikely that Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon all fell at the same time sustaining their injuries with no other injuries to handls, wrists, ankles or limbs as these are common injuries when people fall and attempt to break their fall with hands and legs as they hit the ground.  What are the odds of them all falling together and none of them sustaining any injuries to limbs?  Also, if humans had been involved how did they deliver such massive blows which are clearly beyond human capability.  And if therer were humans there why would they use primitive methods to kill them.  No stab wounds, no gun shots etc?

An ape or ape like creature on the hand has a clear pattern to their aggression.  When they attack they knock their foes to the ground, drag them around violently and beat them with powerful blows to the body.  This is exactly what we see with these injuries.  The only thing that is missing however are ape type bite marks.  Apes do bite, but not always.

Rustems head injury and scratches to the forehead are also consistent with this type of attack, but again not as severe.  Maybe he was able to fend off the attack to some extent.

I he thus kind of summarises my thoughts on this theory so far.

Regards

Star man


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 11, 2019, 06:24:00 AM
There is ample argument against the idea they cut the tent in a panic to begin with. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 09:13:12 AM
There is ample argument against the idea they cut the tent in a panic to begin with.

I think there are other arguments but again the question is around context and whether those other arguments can provide the single common denominator that links all the other events together in a logical and convincing way?  The potential presence of a large ape or ape like creature I believe does this.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 10:18:20 AM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 11:46:43 AM
Maybe this?    whacky1

https://youtu.be/G03bNA-gpXE
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 12, 2019, 12:01:45 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 12:02:05 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

I agree that proving it was a Yeti would be a difficult challenge indeed.  At the moment I am concentrating on the idea of large ape or ape like creature.  Saying that I will keep looking to see if there could be any objective evidence.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 12:09:57 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

Very true.  And science is full of examples where people have fluffed it up.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 12, 2019, 12:30:01 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

No...  That's comparing apples to oranges and the orange is simply a 'wag' on what they 'think' is happening. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 12, 2019, 11:44:28 PM
The Evening Otorten - an important clue . Why make reference to a Yeti?  It’s actually very suspicious given the events that followed?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 04:23:26 AM
How could Thibo have sustained his skull fracture with no other significant injuries and no damage to the soft tissue around the temporal region?

Fall- unlikely
Blunt instrument-unlikely
Explosion- unlikely

Skull crushed Either between two large powerful hands or between one large powerful hand and the ground-  this is what the injuries more closely resembles.

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 04:27:12 AM
Another question about Thibo - why was he wearing two watches? 

Was the time important to him for some reason?

Did he have two watches to ensure they were both synchronised?  So that he did not get the time wrong for some important event?

Did he just like watches?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 13, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
I think in order to blame the incident on Yeti, you first have to prove Yeti exists.   

Otherwise it doesn't hold any more water then the tooth fairy theory.   If someone were to drag a dead Yeti out of the Brake, I would consider the possibility much more seriously.

We dont know if the HIGGS BOSON exists. All we have is TRACE EVIDENCE of a PARTICLE that comes into existence and leaves existence all within a fraction of a second. And there have been many SIGHTINGS of YETI like creatures over Time.

No...  That's comparing apples to oranges and the orange is simply a 'wag' on what they 'think' is happening.

Not really. After all everything is made up of MATTER. The question then becomes; What is Matter  ?  What makes an Apple different from an Orange ? Therefore when Scientists claim to see Evidence for the existence of an Higgs Boson they can be no more certain than when people see Evidence for the existence of a Yeti like Creature, by a SIGHTING.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 13, 2019, 02:51:51 PM
The Evening Otorten - an important clue . Why make reference to a Yeti?  It’s actually very suspicious given the events that followed?

Regards
Star man

And now with the revelation that a WITNESS saw the Newspaper fixed in a PROMINENT position in the Tent and appearing to have been HASTILY written, it becomes even more suspicious.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 13, 2019, 05:37:36 PM
That's what's wrong with scientists.....  They make crap up to explain what they don't understand.   tongue2
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 13, 2019, 11:45:10 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 14, 2019, 11:36:23 AM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 14, 2019, 11:39:53 AM
That's what's wrong with scientists.....  They make crap up to explain what they don't understand.   tongue2

Hardly applies to all Scientists. Some Scientists certainly have Galactic EGO's, which can affect their work. But most Scientists are merely doing their jobs best they can under the circumstances.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 14, 2019, 04:00:33 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 15, 2019, 01:19:35 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man

It may be that eventually more Evidence comes to light regarding the Evening Otorten Paperwork. Meanwhile we can continue Investigating possibilities regarding the YETI Theory.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 15, 2019, 03:55:53 PM
The Evening Otorten is also described in Maslennikov’s note book with descriptions of the entries.  Given that their injuries are consistent with some kind of large ape like creature can it just be a coincidence?  Is it possible that some of the entries were written in humour and the snow man written in haste to leave a record if they didn’t make it?  Maybe.

Regards
Star man

Well unless we have the original paperwork we can not know. Or unless we have other Evidence, maybe another Witness or a Photo of the original paperwork.

I very much doubt we will ever see the original document.  Although saying that.  The Evening Otorten is an important piece of evidence irrespective of whether it was actually in the tent or later planted.  Why - because if it was in the tent then The Yeti entry is odd and probably important considering the events that followed AND if it was planted then someone who may believe that the evidence points in a particular direction is trying to plant a suggestion to try and alter that direction.  My personal view is that the document was in the tent with those comments written on it.

Another option is that the investigators after reviewing all the evidence may have thought it did point towards an attack by a large Yeti type animal, but rather than risk their reputations and become. a laughing stock, concluded their investigation with compelling unknown force and planted the Otorten in an attempt to relay their true thoughts about what happened.  It's probably unlikely though.

Regards

Star man

Regards

Star man

It may be that eventually more Evidence comes to light regarding the Evening Otorten Paperwork. Meanwhile we can continue Investigating possibilities regarding the YETI Theory.

Yeah we need to continue with the research.  It will take time though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 15, 2019, 10:53:19 PM
Thought that this was interesting in the context of this thread.  It might have absolutely no bearing, but it might be an eye brow raiser for those who think they have their feet firmly planted on the ground.

In the early 20th century Russian scientist were experimenting with trying to hybridise apes and humans.  Breeding apes and humans to create a hybrid.  The work was authorised and funded by the government.  As far as we know it never worked.  But is there something we don't know?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanovich_Ivanov

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 04:53:06 AM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 08:39:45 AM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 08:42:39 AM
This a quote from the main site in relation to Thibo’s skull injury:

Vozrozhdenny, who undertook the autopsy, excluded accidental fall on the rock as a possible cause for such a massive and unusual fracture

Thibo’ fracture is decribed as “massive and unusual “. Interesting.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

I thought about the rifle butt as a possible explanation.  It’s not the same shape though.  If it hit his head at an angle the bottom of the injury should be flatter and one part of the injury would be much deeper than the other. 

Out of interest measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width to see what result you get and let me know.  That might be interesting.

One other thing- the fracture that runs from the depression is near the top.  If a gun butt was used then the maximum force applied would be at the bottom of Thibo’s injury and the shape should be flatter.

Good idea though.  Let us know the length/width ratio.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 08:55:13 AM
Case closed?

How much are you willing to rely on one persons opinion that quite possibly had little to no experience with this type of injury.   nea1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:01:02 AM
Quote
I thought about the rifle butt as a possible explanation.  It’s not the same shape though.  If it hit his head at an angle the bottom of the injury should be flatter and one part of the injury would be much deeper than the other. 

Out of interest measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width to see what result you get and let me know.  That might be interesting.

One other thing- the fracture that runs from the depression is near the top.  If a gun butt was used then the maximum force applied would be at the bottom of Thibo’s injury and the shape should be flatter.

Good idea though.  Let us know the length/width ratio.

Regards

Star man


Quote
measure the width of the butt and then divide 9cm by the width

Do what?  the butts taper to a radius.


Which gun?  I have several of all three.   wink1

Also, I would imagine alot would depend on the angle in which the strike happened.  Also, I would imagine there to be some 'give' to the skill when hit, and then some spring back from swelling etc.  I doubt the injury would resemble the object perfectly, especially if he had on a hat and or hood.   Lots of variables here.....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
Not sure abut the exact measurement scale, but knowing the length of these buttplates... pretty close Im sure. 


(https://i.ibb.co/d4wRSdc/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/0yRxkgX)


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:39:10 AM
Actually a bit big....  lemme measure and try again
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 09:47:48 AM
Ok... this should be closer to scale.  I put a line across the Plate showing where I measured from.... at that location its 38mm across.  Thats about half the main impact area.  Once centered you can see the radius has a striking resemblance to the injury. 

This is the SKS.  Civilians wouldn't have these in 1959. 


(https://i.ibb.co/XVz2dMh/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/rvZ7LNC)



(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-wpb0dq6yc5/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/12315/19396/jY7w3xe6SI2WTvpQIjn5_sks__04894.1543432606.jpg?c=2)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 10:14:30 AM
Ah.... the Marine Corps days.    wink1

"well over 550 pounds of force" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg0CsUlisBE

 
Shatter a cheekbone.   whacky1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhz3P86d-Ko&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=28
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 10:15:21 AM
Impact = 450 pounds.   shock1

"break ribs and damage internal organs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB-afURlP9w&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=6
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:43:49 PM
Thought that this was interesting in the context of this thread.  It might have absolutely no bearing, but it might be an eye brow raiser for those who think they have their feet firmly planted on the ground.

In the early 20th century Russian scientist were experimenting with trying to hybridise apes and humans.  Breeding apes and humans to create a hybrid.  The work was authorised and funded by the government.  As far as we know it never worked.  But is there something we don't know?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ivanovich_Ivanov

Regards

Star man

Interesting. The name IVANOV obviously a coincidence. I think there are many cases of such experimentation. The NAZIS did such work as well. No Evidence that any of it succeded though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:52:36 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 01:55:35 PM
This a quote from the main site in relation to Thibo’s skull injury:

Vozrozhdenny, who undertook the autopsy, excluded accidental fall on the rock as a possible cause for such a massive and unusual fracture

Thibo’ fracture is decribed as “massive and unusual “. Interesting.

Regards

Star man

Very interesting, yet there are still those who suggest a fall was responsible. I have never believed that a fall caused those injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:04:00 PM
Well....... could be a rock/boulder.    thanky1      Even Big rocks have sharper edges and rounded points etc.


Then again, this is the butt plate of a Mosin Nagant rifle.  The Mosin Nagant was developed in the late 1800s and was about the only rifle around through to the 1970s.  There isn't a big civilian market for firearms, because unlike the US it requires special circumstances to permit one.  The semi auto SKS was developed in the 1950s, but civilians wouldnt have them. In 1959 there would have really only been TWO rifle types walking around.  The Mosin Nagant, and if military..... the SKS. 

Here is the Butt Plate of a Mosin Nagant.  I own plenty of both and can tell you the radius resemblance is striking... pun intended. 

(http://www.ltwerner.com/wwii/images/mosin-butt.gif)



Here is the Butt Plate of an SKS.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7300/10615476053_9408d6fdef_b.jpg)




Then of course you have the grip butt of a Nagant pistol....  Like the rifle, it was about the only thing around for a crazy long time. 

(https://www.ai4fr.com/main/img_1209917334_16935_1393278344.jpg)

But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:05:16 PM
Case closed?

How much are you willing to rely on one persons opinion that quite possibly had little to no experience with this type of injury.   nea1

One persons opinion  !  ?  Evidence says otherwise.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:09:35 PM
Ok... this should be closer to scale.  I put a line across the Plate showing where I measured from.... at that location its 38mm across.  Thats about half the main impact area.  Once centered you can see the radius has a striking resemblance to the injury. 

This is the SKS.  Civilians wouldn't have these in 1959. 


(https://i.ibb.co/XVz2dMh/ccfxgjydxj.png) (https://ibb.co/rvZ7LNC)

Being hit by one of those things would be a bit like being hit by a Rock. And therefore we would expect to see more Evidence of that on the Skull. But there was no such Evidence of that type of hit.



(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-wpb0dq6yc5/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/12315/19396/jY7w3xe6SI2WTvpQIjn5_sks__04894.1543432606.jpg?c=2)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 16, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
Impact = 450 pounds.   shock1

"break ribs and damage internal organs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB-afURlP9w&list=PLFCC3A771CF7E0073&index=6

The injuries to Dubinina do not appear to have been the result of someone kicking her.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 03:08:35 PM
Quote
But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.

Says who?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 16, 2019, 04:59:40 PM
Ok.  This is getting interesting.  Given Thibo's two hats it is impossible that the impact injury may be slightly different from whatever made it.  If it was an impact that it.

However, it seems obvious when you put the two Diagrams together above that Thibo's injury is clearly a different shape.  It's much wider, it has a rounded bottom and rounded top which is slightly more pointed, just like the top of the ball of the thumb where it joined the thumb itself.  If the gun butt hit Thibo's head at an angle then the bottom of the fracture would only see the flat part of the butt.  I can't see how it would be so rounded. 

A more likely shape would be the handle of a pistol, but the size of the injury would mean the handle would be very large 9cm x 7cm.  I don't know if there were any pistol handles that matched those proportions?  One other thing if it was a pistol handle then it would need to deliver about 450kg of force.

Also, could it just be a coincidence that  the injury identically resembles the proportions of the ball of a thumb?

I know it's weird but there it is.

Lyuda chest injuries were created by massive blows.  A single blow that cleanly fractured all the ribs on one side in a straight line.  Over 800kg of force, at least.  Individual ribs could be broken with much less force, but then there wouldn't be a straight fracture line running through all the ribs.  The ribs would be broken randomly.

Same for Semyon's ribs - the same level of force and one massive blow.  If they fell then given differences in weight you would probably expect a slightly different pattern. 

Let's consider a fall just for interest:

Thibo falls and hits his head "only" on a rock resulting in a massive injury that exactly resembles the proportions of the ball,of the thumb.

Lyuda also falls and lands on her chest "only" on a rock that causes massive damage fracturing both sides.  Only sustains minor injuries elsewhere.

Semyon also falls on his chest "only" on a rock that causes massive damage fracturing one side of his chest.  Only sustains minor injuries elsewhere.

Now let's look at a human cause:

Someone hits Thibo with a rock to his head that just happens to create a fracture with the exact proportions of a ball of the thumb.

Then they pick up 150kg to 300 kg rock and drop it on Lyuda and Semyon, but they leave Kolevatov alive.

Regards

Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 16, 2019, 06:59:45 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on August 16, 2019, 08:32:17 PM
I don't find the Yeti theory plausible. Even if they were attacked by a Yeti what accounts for the missing eyeballs of the three in the  ravine? Was this caused by animals or fish? A blow to the chest enough to cause broken ribs would not cause someone's eyes to leave their eye sockets. So is it considered that the eyes were not affected by the damaging blows and by animals?

If there were a force, such as a ball lightening, electric force that broke their ribs, their eye sockets would have been damaged all around the eye area i.e., burns, acid, etc.

If the conclusion is that the eyes were lost during the months long period they lay in the river is the plausible theory.

If a Yeti or even a bear attack, there should be amounts of flesh ripped and it would  be visible on most bodies. The three exposed and found first don't speak to an attack by an animal.


The possibility of elk or reindeer stampede is still possible and would incapacitate the hikers and make them leave the tent in order to assess their wounds and make plans to try and survive.

I do have a question, why in March was a Mansi member at the site? Especially knowing there would be bodies there and not all of the hikers had been found? Was he just passing by, or was he investigating on his own? I cannot think of any reason that he should  have been there knowing it was a devastating event. I wonder about this. If the Mansi are telling hikers not to go there, what was he doing there?

The foot prints don't give too much detail and the site was not secured.

If the Dyatlov Pass investigation team were to monitor the site during the winter with cameras like the hunters use might give up the details. Some type of sonic monitoring for electrical activity and sound wave monitoring should give info about the site being a place of supernatural events. Geiger counter monitoring for a few months.

I have to go back to the 1993 incident where the hikers died in August and during the day, the first one became ill, bled from his nose and died. Then another hiker began banging her head on rocks. Even though it did not happen in the same spot, it was definitely some kind of supernatural event either electric, sound, breathing poison gases, etc., that caused that melee. it was described quite well by the person who survived. So this tells me no Yeti, no bear, no elk, no military, no poison eaten, perehaps poison gases exposure.

Keep up the fight. Jarrfan


Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 02:15:36 AM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 02:25:00 AM
I don't find the Yeti theory plausible. Even if they were attacked by a Yeti what accounts for the missing eyeballs of the three in the  ravine? Was this caused by animals or fish? A blow to the chest enough to cause broken ribs would not cause someone's eyes to leave their eye sockets. So is it considered that the eyes were not affected by the damaging blows and by animals?

If there were a force, such as a ball lightening, electric force that broke their ribs, their eye sockets would have been damaged all around the eye area i.e., burns, acid, etc.

If the conclusion is that the eyes were lost during the months long period they lay in the river is the plausible theory.

If a Yeti or even a bear attack, there should be amounts of flesh ripped and it would  be visible on most bodies. The three exposed and found first don't speak to an attack by an animal.


The possibility of elk or reindeer stampede is still possible and would incapacitate the hikers and make them leave the tent in order to assess their wounds and make plans to try and survive.

I do have a question, why in March was a Mansi member at the site? Especially knowing there would be bodies there and not all of the hikers had been found? Was he just passing by, or was he investigating on his own? I cannot think of any reason that he should  have been there knowing it was a devastating event. I wonder about this. If the Mansi are telling hikers not to go there, what was he doing there?

The foot prints don't give too much detail and the site was not secured.

If the Dyatlov Pass investigation team were to monitor the site during the winter with cameras like the hunters use might give up the details. Some type of sonic monitoring for electrical activity and sound wave monitoring should give info about the site being a place of supernatural events. Geiger counter monitoring for a few months.

I have to go back to the 1993 incident where the hikers died in August and during the day, the first one became ill, bled from his nose and died. Then another hiker began banging her head on rocks. Even though it did not happen in the same spot, it was definitely some kind of supernatural event either electric, sound, breathing poison gases, etc., that caused that melee. it was described quite well by the person who survived. So this tells me no Yeti, no bear, no elk, no military, no poison eaten, perehaps poison gases exposure.

Keep up the fight. Jarrfan

You make an interesting point about the eyes and facial injuries.  Let's add some further info to these:

When apes attack they often attack the body and the face.  Mutilating the face is actually quite common in normal ape attacks.  Who knows what a Yeti would do?

But ask yourself this - the two people who have the worst facial injuries and missing eyes are also the two who have the worst chest injuries, consistent with them having being mauled to the worst extent.  It is actually a shame that they were Ian stream bed because if they were not then it would me more clear that there is something odd about the facial injuries.  Lyuda's face is the worst - missing tissue around lips, skull, smashed nose cartilage, missing eyes and tongue.  En there is Semyon missing eyes, tissue missing around eye brows large laceration around the back of the head.  In known ape attacks it is quite common for the ape to drag the victim around.

So, I don't think that the eyes would pop out due to the blows.  The attack on the face would be specific.

One other thing if an ape like creature was attacking one of the group, then I doubt the others would just stand by and watch, they attack it too, punching kicking etc.  they did have a knife which was never found.  An attack with a knife would interrupt the ape attack, and make it less severe.  Also it might eventually drive it away.  So if Koleveatov had the knife, he might have stabbed it several times and eventually drove it away.  The knife may have been le in the beast.  Hence it was never found.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 05:17:36 AM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: cennetkusu on August 17, 2019, 09:03:04 AM
Yeti can exist in the world. This is possible. But as far as I know, he has never had any attacks on people. And there's no reason to attack. Yeti could not have attacked young people, even if they were close to them. I mean, I think he was somewhere close by. And it seemed as if he had predicted what was going to happen in the photo. So if Yeti has no extraordinary power, Yeti cannot be responsible for these deaths
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on August 17, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
This is the sad story of Charlotte Nash whose face was destroyed, eyes ripped out, so even though this was a chimp and not an ape, they are in the same line. He bit off both of her  hands.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/victim-chimp-attack-shows-destroyed-face-oprah/story?id=9053544

I cannot say if this proves or disproves a Yeti was involved.

Regards. Jarrfan
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 10:48:00 AM
The only one that was bitten was Yuri, and he did it to himself.   wink1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:08:19 PM
Quote
But the Evidence suggests that the injuries were not caused by a fall on rocks or of a rock or similar hard object hitting the Skull.

Says who?

Well there is stuff in The Dyatlov Pass Website. We have the Autopsy stuff.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:15:53 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 17, 2019, 12:22:59 PM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.

Well thats assuming that the hypothetical YETI is an animal that eats and breeds like Apes or Humans.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:24:50 PM
Welp...  All you have to do is produce a Yeti.  A big animal with a thumb like that would consume a late of food, and it has to reproduce.  Should be easy.

Yeaaaaaeeehh!!!!!  Will have to work on that one but you're right.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:27:24 PM
This is the sad story of Charlotte Nash whose face was destroyed, eyes ripped out, so even though this was a chimp and not an ape, they are in the same line. He bit off both of her  hands.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/victim-chimp-attack-shows-destroyed-face-oprah/story?id=9053544

I cannot say if this proves or disproves a Yeti was involved.

Regards. Jarrfan

Yes this was a very severe attack.  I think the chimp was not stopped for some time so the injuries are even more severe.  But you can see the type and pattern of an ape attack. 

There are not many example of ape human attacks documented.  Apes are normally peaceful creatures, especially gorillas.  But interesting none the less.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:32:01 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeah I think the pattern of events points to some kind of large ape involvement.  But what sort of ape and why would it be there on Kholat Syakhl in the middle of winter.  A Yeti in its natural habitat or something else?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 17, 2019, 12:35:06 PM
The only one that was bitten was Yuri, and he did it to himself.   wink1

Why aren't there any bite marks.  Good question

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 17, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeti thumb shaped injury brings Bigfoot to the forefront of all theories as THE undisputable explanation of the DP incident.     

What a headline, and what a claim.   bang1

Definitive claims based on bias and total disregard for common sense, reality, and facts is running a muck something fierce.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: cennetkusu on August 18, 2019, 02:05:19 AM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 18, 2019, 06:23:34 AM
Because it 'had' to be from the THUMB of a Yeti.    He one handedly popped his head like a grape.    whacky1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 18, 2019, 10:56:06 PM
It might be worth summarising the evidence in favour of a large ape type creature again at this point:

1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.

The injuries are by far the more interesting though

Rustems head injury is inconsistent with falling and hitting your head.  His fractured skull is in the temporal region with diffuse feeding into the temporal muscle.  Falling is more likely to result in injuries to the front and back of the skull.  Rustem also had diffuse bleeding in the other temporal muscle which makes it appear that he received a blow to the head while probably lying on the ground.

Many of the group had injuries to their hands and legs consistent with punching and kicking.  It is unlikely they fighting each other but it does appear that they were attacking something.  Maybe fighting off the creature as it attacked their friends.

Thibo's head injury is identical to the shape of a thumb, but this thumb scaled up would be part of a hand that is about 30cm long and capable of delivering over 450kg of force.   The same length as the bruise on Zina's side.  Thibo has no other significant injuries.

Lyuda and Semyon have chest injuries that would require massive blows beyond that which any human could deliver.  They also have facial injuries similar to that found in ape attacks.

Kolevatov is left alive.

Dyatlov, zina die of hypothermia.  Rustem also eventually dies of hypothermia but complicated by his head injury.

One other piece of evidence which I think may also be important given the above - The Eveneing Otorten which has an entry about a Yeti.  Had one of the group seen something before the attack?

What's missing:

1.  Obviously an ape creature or Yeti
2. Foot prints
3.  Bite marks on the victims
4. The knife of the rav 4

Post edit:  oh yes the radiation- what is that all about?

Regards

Star man






Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 18, 2019, 11:34:36 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.

Not a bad thought.  I have already considered this.  My conclusion is that the only martial artist capable of inflicting all of the injuries is the type that has very bad dubbing and can jump 50 foot up into the sky. 

But who knows when comparing the probability of a 50 foot jumping ninja with a Yeti.

Still- there was nothing in the Evening Otorten about 50 foot jumping super ninjas.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 06:06:56 AM
Quote
1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.


Hmmmm....   I like your enthusiasm and theories Star-Man,  but I think you may be reaching really far now.  Literally everything you list is most definitely not 'evidence' contributed to Yeti or a "large primate" dropped on the pass for some super secret experiment. 

Evidence in favor of what you propose would look more like.....

Yeti hairs
Yeti DNA
Yeti footprints
Yeti den
Yeti fingerprints
Yeti sleeping in their tent. <<. Roflmao

I think you get the idea.  Everything you list and the injuries you allocate can be contributed to.....  Anything.  It can all be an indication of goblins, trolls, mothman, and unicorn farts if you really wanna go down that road. 

Just sayin

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 06:16:27 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 08:47:26 AM
Of course.  Many of the individual pieces of evidence I have presented can be put down to a number of possible explanations.  What I have tried to do is present a picture that can be consistently pieced together and supported with some key claims that is believable or at least should raise the suspicion that some kind of large ape like creature could have been involved.

There is of course no concrete evidence yet.

I agree that what is required to complete this scenario would be exactly the sort of things you have listed LC.  The evidence currently available is unlikely to supply that. 

To progress this theory further would require new evidence.  Maybe some semi fossilised Yeti poo?  You never know there still might be some left on the pass today.

I’ll keep thinking.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 09:30:21 AM
I think a Yeti theory would go a lot further it someone popped one and drug it into town. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:06:24 PM
Welp, this is the Yeti thread so debating the injuries are not from a Yeti is futile. 

Leaving thought.   Why would the skull wound not taper out into an overall larger area?  When a rock hits a windshield, does it only affect the contact point?   This is common sense stuff thats not worth arguing about.   nea1

So the point of talking about the injuries in terms of them not being made by a yeti is show/demonstrate the unlikely conditions that would be required for the injuries to have been caused by either an accident or human intervention.

I don't know about the likelihood of the injuries tapering wrt impacts on a skull.  I suppose it must be possible for some tapering, but the outline of the injury as shown in the diagram is very distinct.

Naturally I wouldn't expect anyone to be totally convinced by the information presented that it was a Yeti instead of an accident or human attack.

The point that should be more clear is that there is something very odd about these injuries when considering them all together.

Regards

Star man

Well said and well said about your analysis re the Head injury. You have basically laid a fairly clear path towards it not being the result of another Human or even Rock Fall or Hit by a Rock. Along with the Autopsy Findings etc we may be looking at some kind of completely Unknown Quantity. So that brings the YETI THEORY nicely into the Equation, or Equations.

Yeti thumb shaped injury brings Bigfoot to the forefront of all theories as THE undisputable explanation of the DP incident.     

What a headline, and what a claim.   bang1

Definitive claims based on bias and total disregard for common sense, reality, and facts is running a muck something fierce.

I wouldnt say DEFINITIVE CLAIMS. I would say just another THEORY albeit an unusual one. But nevertheless worth looking at. All OPTIONS must be open.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:11:45 PM
Just another observation on Thibo’s skull fracture:

If you orient the ball of the thumb to line up with Thibo’s depressed fracture then the Index finger lines up with the elongated fracture that runs around to the frontal bone and the base of the hand corresponds to the fracture that runs underneath through the saddle.  Try it. 

Regards

Star man

Interesting. Obviously it wouldnt have been a Human Hand because a Human Hand would not have been powerful enough.
Why not? There are many powerful martial artists in the world. It is strong enough to break the skull with a stroke. But you can make this kick with one hand which is powerful and skillful. That's what happened to Tibo. A man of extraordinary power did not want to deal with Tibo much, took pity on him and killed him with a single shot. The others were very angry and broke his eyes and ribs in anger.

I think we may be looking at injuries that were caused by some kind of CRUSHING as opposed to hitting. And as far as I know there is no Evidence of any Human being being able to CRUSH someones SKULL with their hand or to CRUSH someones CHEST with their hand or hands in the way that DUBININA was apparently CRUSHED.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:17:05 PM
Quote
1. Something scary enough to drive them away from the tent without adequate clothing or equipment
2. A careful decent of the slope which would be consistent with calmly walking away from a dangerous animal
3. Dropping the flash light and not stopping to retrieve it
4. The group heads for a tall cedar and climb the tree clearing branches to look back up the slope.
5. Yuri D receives scratches bruises climbing the tree his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  It does  not appear that he climbed the tree to collect firewood.
6. Fragments of skin found in the tree bark
7. Yuri D and Yuris K die of hypothermia.  The fire is lit too late to save their lives.


Hmmmm....   I like your enthusiasm and theories Star-Man,  but I think you may be reaching really far now.  Literally everything you list is most definitely not 'evidence' contributed to Yeti or a "large primate" dropped on the pass for some super secret experiment. 

Evidence in favor of what you propose would look more like.....

Yeti hairs
Yeti DNA
Yeti footprints
Yeti den
Yeti fingerprints
Yeti sleeping in their tent. <<. Roflmao

I think you get the idea.  Everything you list and the injuries you allocate can be contributed to.....  Anything.  It can all be an indication of goblins, trolls, mothman, and unicorn farts if you really wanna go down that road. 

Just sayin

The same could be said of most of the THEORIES, ie, where is the real Evidence. The YETI Theory is worth looking at. Plenty of Sightings and experiences by people over the decades.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 19, 2019, 12:19:26 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 12:19:43 PM
I guess you missed this.

https://youtu.be/RB-afURlP9w
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 19, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
I think it's fair to say that the theory presented fits the sequence of events but like all the other theories here it is not definitive as DB states.  Again as with all other theories the thing that is missing is irrefutable forensic evidence.  For a large ape like creature or Yeti DNA would probably be required.  The remains of such an animal if ever discovered may provide this and would probably be a scientific sensation.

For the DPI it might be difficult to tease out any further evidence.

However, there are some possibilities. For instance if Kolevatov stabbed the beast and drove it away it's possible that the knife went with it.  The knife may still be there somewhere and it might even still be with the remains of the beast.  For instance the beast may have crawled off itself and died some distance from the ravine.  Finding the knife might mean finding the remains of the beast.  Or the knife may have tissue on it skin, or hair that has survIved and may be used for DNA analysis.  It's a long shot, but it's an example of how further information could come to light.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 19, 2019, 11:39:05 PM
Just another thought on evidence and where it could be found.  When the DPI happened Francis Crick had not discovered DNA so it’s unlikely that the bodies were examined for DNA evidence.  Quite often skin and hair of an attacker can be found under the finger nails. 

I would not advocate exhuming the bodies to look for such evidence though as I think they should be left to rest in peace.

If there was some kind of large ape being used in a military test that somehow managed to attack the group (note that apes were used across the world for such tests years ago) then there may be records of the movement and sales of such apes still in existence that could be traced.  Who knows.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 20, 2019, 01:17:30 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 20, 2019, 01:20:17 PM
Just another thought on evidence and where it could be found.  When the DPI happened Francis Crick had not discovered DNA so it’s unlikely that the bodies were examined for DNA evidence.  Quite often skin and hair of an attacker can be found under the finger nails. 

I would not advocate exhuming the bodies to look for such evidence though as I think they should be left to rest in peace.

If there was some kind of large ape being used in a military test that somehow managed to attack the group (note that apes were used across the world for such tests years ago) then there may be records of the movement and sales of such apes still in existence that could be traced.  Who knows.

Regards
Star man

Many Bodies are exhumed if there is a good reason. I have no problem with that and maybe some of the relatives would be ok with that if it helped to resolve this mystery.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 20, 2019, 04:24:26 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 20, 2019, 10:52:31 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Even if the families were supportive of exhumation for further forensic examination, I think there would need to be more compelling reason that just the possibility of DNA samples under the nails.  One thing that may be interesting though is the radiation.  If the bodies clothing was removed and they were washed then any external radiation would have been at least mostly removed.  But if they had been exposed to some radiation on the pass itself then it is likely that they breathed in some of this.  So unless all of their lungs had been removed during autopsy then there will still be evidence of the radiation in the lungs, or at least the remains of the lungs.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 20, 2019, 11:38:05 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/dB9WQbR/2-DD37014-2-BDB-44-DB-A669-08-F1-CB660-C72.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

In terms of forensic evidence I think that the foot prints may be important.  Although there is a suprising lack of detail in the case files. 

I found the above photo interesting.  Although it may be nothing towards the middle right of the photo there are two large symmetrical Foot shaped dark patches in the snow.  I haven’t been able to highlight them but see if you can see them.

There is also another foot print reported as two overlapping prints that looks similar in shape to the foot of an ape.  Again it could be nothing but who knows.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
This is an ape foot for comparison with the above post.  Note the rounded shape and the big toe slightly displaced across and slightly lower than the other toes.


(https://i.ibb.co/BVYp6rP/A8376-CC1-41-D0-49-C3-97-FF-50-F2-B1-DE6-C07.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 21, 2019, 09:45:57 AM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 21, 2019, 01:03:15 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 21, 2019, 02:35:30 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 10:51:07 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 21, 2019, 11:34:30 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/HXF7YZW/DF9-AD782-DBD9-42-A7-BA21-98-C9-F3-ECA8-FA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)



The above photo is quite interesting.  If you look carefully there appears to be a bare foot print on top of what seems to be a boot print. 

What is interesting though is the rounded shape of the bare foot print and the big toe is behind the other toes.  Normally a human big toe is the furthest forward but not for an ape. 

Would be interested to know what people think?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 21, 2019, 11:51:27 PM
It's a velenki print, and I don't see an ape print. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 22, 2019, 03:08:03 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 22, 2019, 03:14:50 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man

Yes its a shame that that programme got a bit carried away with some parts and it certainly did become a bit sensational. I think that the interview with those 2 original searchers and what they said needs to be considered as TRUE. Why would they want to lie ?  They must have had respect and still have respect for the Dyatlov Group that met its demise in such an unusual way.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 22, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:05:06 PM
I would imagine someone part of the search and investigation would notice drastically different footprints then a humans.   I don't see anything in that pic except human packed prints that the surrounding unpacked snow has blown away from.

Yeah, there is definitely a lack of detail on the foot prints in the file. 

Now the Discovery channel documentary - which I Would agree is sensationalised trash for the most part does include an interview with two of the original search party.  In the interview, according to the programme they do state that they noticed strange large foot prints that were not mentioned in the case files.  Is this also sensationalised trash?  I don't know.

Regards

Star man

Yes its a shame that that programme got a bit carried away with some parts and it certainly did become a bit sensational. I think that the interview with those 2 original searchers and what they said needs to be considered as TRUE. Why would they want to lie ?  They must have had respect and still have respect for the Dyatlov Group that met its demise in such an unusual way.

Maybe they were telling the truth but I think they would need to come forward independently as the discovery channel programme can't be considered credible?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:11:59 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 22, 2019, 11:32:50 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/fxm95vV/1-FC1-D4-A5-8-BC7-4-E1-E-8026-3-C15-D143-B2-FD.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

The above photo should be marked up with the areas I found interesting.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 23, 2019, 04:07:18 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 23, 2019, 11:26:38 AM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my great on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man

Just one of the many questions in this Dyatlov Case. Scarcity of Information and Evidence. There must surely have been the opportunity to take many photos of all the Footprints in the area. We do not appear to have that many photos  !  ?  Also there is not much written about the Footprints. Once again, surely in a potential Criminal Investigation that is just the sort of Evidence you would be looking for.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 23, 2019, 11:30:51 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 23, 2019, 02:15:54 PM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.

The potential is there pretty much every time you have a dead body, not to mention nine, I agree.

But what does this have to do with the autopsy report not mentioning animals and bacteria? if the group died in a hotel room - fine, no rodents or predators. But the circumstances are different. In the wilderness you have animals, and whatever the environment, you have bacteria. And, I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

They just state facts - broken bones, missing body parts, and eventually the cause of death. Relation between assumptions and facts is highly problematic. Think about Thibo`s skull. Rifle butt, fall onto a rock, or Yeti`s hand grab? I see no need to go chase the wild, while you can have the tame.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 23, 2019, 02:45:09 PM
Quote
I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

Bingo.   okey1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 23, 2019, 04:52:44 PM
Maybe we can write to the authorities in Russia and demand they enter it as fact in the original case files.

I wouldn't hold my great on that one.

The case files are lacking in a number of areas and the foot prints are one of these areas.

In a criminal investigation surely it would be expected that the bare feet and boot prints are matched to the hikers?  There are 8 to 9 sets of tracks reported and 9 hikers.  If they found a set of tracks with a foot size that didn't match anyone in the group, or say two people with size 10 shoes and there is only 1 hiker with this foot size its a massive clue.   You get what I mean.  But there's nothing like that.

Regards

Star man

Just one of the many questions in this Dyatlov Case. Scarcity of Information and Evidence. There must surely have been the opportunity to take many photos of all the Footprints in the area. We do not appear to have that many photos  !  ?  Also there is not much written about the Footprints. Once again, surely in a potential Criminal Investigation that is just the sort of Evidence you would be looking for.

Exactly.  Very odd particularly considering the search party was asked to pay particular attention to the foot prints.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 24, 2019, 11:53:09 AM
And who said anything about a ninja that can jump 50 feet in the air? 

I have been witness on TWO occasions where someone was punched with a bare fist resulting in a crushed eye socket that was worse then Tibs injury. The eye socket is the most robust part of the human skull, and one guy lost an eyeball..... for good.  Anyone that thinks humans cannot inflict these types of injuries especially when utilizing weapons is flat out not in touch with reality.  Same goes for falling out of a tree, into a deep boulder filled ravine etc.

Did they remove the persons TONGUE as well  !  ?  And did they leave TRACES of RADIATION on the person  !  ?

Decomposition is a real thing you know.  Seriously.....  Google it.   grin1

Radiation levels were low, and apparently brought to the site on the cloths of Yuri K.   wink1

And neither is evidence to the prior.

No Evidence of any animals or Organisms that could have caused Decomposition were presented. Radiation or something caused Ivanov great concern. And no Evidence that Radiation was brought to the site on any clothing.

Sure there is....  They were found FOUR MONTHS LATER half submerged in a creek.  It does not take a rocket scientist to establish common sense.  The autopsy reports clearly state 'missing', no mention of torn flesh, cut flesh..... Nothing.  It's called decomposition..... Period.  No need for some fantastical cryptozoology or unrealistic conspiracies.   

Radiation....  Sure there is.  It was only found on very specific articles of clothing which just happen to belong to members of the group that were involved in a RADIATION CLEANUP just prior to the DP trip, and the other worked in refining it.  Again.....  Common sense no brainier.

There is no Evidence of ordinary ANIMALS having had a part in the demise and decomposition of the Dyatlov group. No SIGNS of animal activity at or near the Dead Bodies. No SIGNS of BACTERIA, etc, were reported in the Autopsy. And the Radiation reports leave much to be desired. And this radiation question crops up elsewhere in the Forum.

So, just because Vozrojdenniy did not specifically mentioned wild animals and bacteria - the most obvious natural explanation when dealing with dead bodies rotting for months in the wilderness, we can literally cross them out of the story? Well, I guess that really leaves us with only the Yeti to blame. Or the fireballs, piloted by extraterrestrial astronauts, yes?
NO. The Autopsies were carried out by people who were aware of the unusual circumstances of this Case. IE A potential CRIME. Therefore it would be logical to assume that they would have mentioned any likely hood of animal or bacterial involvement. YES.

Logical to assume? So they should have mentioned any form of deliberate injury or "mutilation"... And we have none of that.
 
Instead, eyes and tongue are simply "missing", not ripped, nor cut. Or someone/something made them dissapear?
 
How about natural decay and animal activity which exist, instead of cryptochupacabras for who we have only legends and not even one material evidence?

Well it was a potential Criminal Investigation. We are talking about the possible Murder of 9 people. When the Authorities started searching in earnest in the area of concern they were searching with the knowledge that a Crime may have been committed.

The potential is there pretty much every time you have a dead body, not to mention nine, I agree.

But what does this have to do with the autopsy report not mentioning animals and bacteria? if the group died in a hotel room - fine, no rodents or predators. But the circumstances are different. In the wilderness you have animals, and whatever the environment, you have bacteria. And, I don`t think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body, especially in the specific conditions of the Pass. it is common sense. You don`t explain why you get wet during a rain storm.

They just state facts - broken bones, missing body parts, and eventually the cause of death. Relation between assumptions and facts is highly problematic. Think about Thibo`s skull. Rifle butt, fall onto a rock, or Yeti`s hand grab? I see no need to go chase the wild, while you can have the tame.

You seem to miss the point. And also rodents can be found in Hotels. And then you seem to contradict yourself by saying that whatever the environment you have bacteria. And then you say you dont think coroners should explain the very process of decomposition of the human body. But thats precisely what is needed in a potential Criminal Investigation, an EXPLANATION if at all possible.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 24, 2019, 12:21:53 PM
You have bacteria living in your gut, skin etc.... even in a perfectly sterile environment, they take over in death.  Fact

Wonder whats swimming around in creeks.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 24, 2019, 02:02:27 PM
Why am I missing the point?

You say, that because Vozrojdeniy did not specifically mentioned animals and/or bacteria, there is no evidence of them being present, hence we need other explanation for the missing body parts of the decomposing for months in the wilderness bodies... Nice, what is your guess then?

I see no contradiction in my words. Ok, you may have rodents in your hotel room, but you can have bacteria everywhere. So it is absurd to eliminate their role in demaging and decomposition of the body, especially in the specific environment of the Pass.

Now, the process of decomposition and the cause of death are two separate things. Obviously, no specific relation was stated. They died because of their traumas, and they decay, because that is what happens when we die. That is probably way too obvious for a coroner, so no need to explain how and why they rot.

Dont get me wrong, but I think you are missing the point, while trying to exclude all reasonable facts, and looking for a sensational cause.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 24, 2019, 05:02:16 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 24, 2019, 06:20:01 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 01:39:03 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement?

I don't know.  But it could be an important piece of evidence about the tongue.  I can certainly understand it could be damaged if it was forcefully ripped out, but I don't know enough to say if it could be loosened by decomposition.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:23:21 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 04:31:46 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

I dunno but analyzing every word from a google chosen translation......  meh
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on August 25, 2019, 05:52:57 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Probably the "usual" movement is when the whole thing is still there, while "unusual" is when the muscles and tissue holding it, are not there anymore.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 06:51:22 AM
Is it easier to pull a bone out of a living fish, or a 4 month dead rotten fish? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 07:11:14 AM
Does it take cryptozoology or aliens to do this slippage?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFJrow7yaec/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 25, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
How about those eyes....  did Yeti suck out those eyeballs? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:32:03 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

I dunno but analyzing every word from a google chosen translation......  meh

That's just it.  I don't know either.  I'm just relaying what I read. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 25, 2019, 04:39:57 PM
I have no idea what happened to that person.  I doubt that we will conclude anything from considering what was meant in the reports by specific terms.  My interpretation is that skin slippage or tissue slippage is different from epidermis is absent.  But it depends on how specific the wording of the report was meant to be.  Terms can often be thrown around that sometimes need clarification.

Again I have no idea what happened to the above persons eyes?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 04:52:30 AM
The extract below describes the sorts of injuries expected from different types of fall.  It is also documented that the type of force required to cause the flail chest injuries of Lyudmila and Semyon is the same order as a car crash or a fall from significant height.

Have a look at the extract and ask yourself whether you would expect to see additional head injuries, lower and upper extremity injuries and or spinal injuries?  Also ask yourself how you think a human might have inflicted those flail chest injuries?

This is the extract below.  Note SLF means same level fall.

Extremity skeletal injuries (ranging from 20% in SLFs [33] to 77% in high falls [9] where hip and upper extremity (UE) injuries predominate in SLFs and other lower extremity (LE) injuries are more common in high falls.

Spine injuries are very common (ranging from 13% in mixed falls [9] to 36% in high falls [4,6]. Lumbar spine injuries are completely predominating. Spine injuries are not confined to high falls, but can happen from even below 2 m [6].

Head injuries are more common in children, likely due to them having relatively larger heads, shifting the center of gravity cranially. Jumpers more often land on their feet than fallers and thus injuries to the lower extremities are more common, but the higher the fall, the greater is the chance of landing on the head. 20-45% of falls from 2-10 m resulted in head injury. Several studies have detailed reports on head injuries with ranges of 0.7-5.8% of epidural hematoma, 0.9-6.0% of subdural hematoma, 1.5-7.0% of subarachnoid hematoma and 0.4-3.7% of intracerebral hem

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 05:40:43 AM
Did they slide head first down an embankment?  Can a person be dragged 50m of snow downhill from the cedar? 

yes
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 08:34:45 AM
I think sliding down the embankment is another scenario that should be considered.  Given the significant flail chest injuries though and the force required to cause them I think the readers should still consider the likelihood of them receiving other injuries to head, limbs, spine etc.  I am asking people to make their own judgments.  Also to look up other reference information on falls, sliding down steep slopes.  I don’t know if any research has been done on that.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:42:21 AM
You have bacteria living in your gut, skin etc.... even in a perfectly sterile environment, they take over in death.  Fact

Wonder whats swimming around in creeks.

There wasnt a Creek at Dyatlov Pass  or any where near, just a little Stream. Yes Bacteria are everywhere. But I dont recall any one specifically stating that they had seen DECOMPOSITION on the Bodies of the Dyatlov Group  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
Why am I missing the point?

You say, that because Vozrojdeniy did not specifically mentioned animals and/or bacteria, there is no evidence of them being present, hence we need other explanation for the missing body parts of the decomposing for months in the wilderness bodies... Nice, what is your guess then?

I see no contradiction in my words. Ok, you may have rodents in your hotel room, but you can have bacteria everywhere. So it is absurd to eliminate their role in demaging and decomposition of the body, especially in the specific environment of the Pass.

Now, the process of decomposition and the cause of death are two separate things. Obviously, no specific relation was stated. They died because of their traumas, and they decay, because that is what happens when we die. That is probably way too obvious for a coroner, so no need to explain how and why they rot.

Dont get me wrong, but I think you are missing the point, while trying to exclude all reasonable facts, and looking for a sensational cause.

Well Iam definitely not looking for a sensational Cause.  Iam merely trying to look at this in the way a DETECTIVE may look at a potential MURDER CASE. Iam not eliminating Bacteria, Iam merely asking for PROOF as to its possible role in any so called DECOMPOSITION. Bear in mind that some Human bodies are found many years after death in very cold conditions and they are well preserved because of the cold. Bacteria love warm environments.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 11:51:49 AM
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The fall scenario makes perfect sense for the pattern of chest wall injuries and scapula. I do not see that pattern as due to multiple blows (but not impossible  of course).

The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

 My favourite and I have had plenty to say about that particular Bone in other parts of this Forum. There is no proof that Bacteria or Rodents caused that damage.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:55:10 AM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

If the entire area is decomposed, is it a wonder it has movement?

In that case why didnt the Report State that the damage was definitely duy to DECOMPOSITION  !  ?  Answer may be simple.  Because the damage wasnt  due to Decomposition.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:58:15 AM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 11:59:19 AM
Who the hell said anything about "damage"?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 11:59:49 AM
Is it easier to pull a bone out of a living fish, or a 4 month dead rotten fish?

There were not any living  or dead fish at the Dyatlov Pass Incident.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 27, 2019, 12:00:51 PM
Extract from the www:

Hyoid bone, U-shaped bone situated at the root of the tongue in the front of the neck and between the lower jaw and the largest cartilage of the larynx, or voice box. The primary function of the hyoid bone is to serve as an anchoring structure for the tongue.


In Lyuda's autopsy report the "unusual movement of the hyoid bone is mentioned".

Bacterial or rodent damage?

Regards

Star man

 My favourite and I have had plenty to say about that particular Bone in other parts of this Forum. There is no proof that Bacteria or Rodents caused that damage.

I suppose a question that we could ask is - are there any other examples for the hyoid bone becoming loose due to decomposition or bacteria etc?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 27, 2019, 12:01:01 PM
Does it take cryptozoology or aliens to do this slippage?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFJrow7yaec/maxresdefault.jpg)

What does this mean  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:01:10 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ?

Prolly because when your alive or recently deceased, its not like that.  The rotted state in of itself created the unusual movement.  This isn't rocket science. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:06:02 PM
Is it REALLY a wonder having the tongue rotten, that the cartilage associated with it had movement?   Seriously......
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:25:59 PM
Getting to quote myself from another thread....  priceless. 

Also from the autopsy report.      whist1


Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
 

Pretty sure the head encompasses everything within said head.   

 quiet1


 grin1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 27, 2019, 12:27:16 PM
^^^^^^^   literally.....  end of atory  ^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 28, 2019, 12:45:12 PM
Just another quick thought on the hyoid bone.  The autopsy report mentions "unusual" movement of the bone.  If it is normal for the bone to loosen due to decomposition why would the autopsy describe it as "usual"

Regards

Star man

Thats right, and by the way you meant Unusual not usual, ie, Why would the Autopsy describe  it as Unusual Movement  !  ?

Prolly because when your alive or recently deceased, its not like that.  The rotted state in of itself created the unusual movement.  This isn't rocket science.

We know its not Rocket Science, thats for sure. But it doesnt make sense to put that Statement in the Autopsy Report if its common knowledge. I mean, the Autopsy person doesnt need to say specifically that such a body part is displaying unusual movement if that is what would normally be expected of that body part. Surely you must agree with what I have said  ! ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 28, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
^^^^^^^   literally.....  end of atory  ^^^^^^^^^

Actually its the end of nothing because nothing as been proved.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 28, 2019, 01:11:23 PM
Whats been proven is whats in the autopsy.

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 28, 2019, 10:59:25 PM
I think with the proper expert advice it should be easy to conclude whether the loose hyoid bone loosening is usual or unusual.  Unfortunately I am not an expert on this, but maybe someone who reads this thread may know more. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:49:38 AM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 04:08:06 AM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?

I suspect that google translate will have its limitations.

Saying that there will be someone out there who has the right expertise who will know whether the movement of the hyoid bone is a normal part of decomposition.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 29, 2019, 12:05:45 PM
Whats been proven is whats in the autopsy.

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Not sure what you mean by that.  The Autopsy Report is all that we have regarding the Autopsy, there was no other Examination done as far as I know. And also there appear to be questions about the Autopsy Report being thorough enough. The Autopsy Report alone does not provide the proof needed to establish the exact cause of all the Deaths.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 29, 2019, 12:09:35 PM
How accurate was google in its word choosing?

I suspect that google translate will have its limitations.

Saying that there will be someone out there who has the right expertise who will know whether the movement of the hyoid bone is a normal part of decomposition.

Regards
Star man

But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:13:00 PM
I agree, which is why concluding anything was ripped or cut out when it only states 'missing' is an extreme stretch in my opinion. Especially when the report specifically states.....

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

There is ample evidence this was caused by decomposition, and we have nothing to suggest it was anything else such as but not limited to ripped ot cut out. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:19:42 PM
Quote
But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.

The decomposition is what makes it "not normal".....   She was found with her head and neck slumped over a boulder. Is it not possible for the weight of her body and the rotten nature of the area to cause movement in cartilage that has movement to begin with?   Again, is it easier to wiggle a bone loose from a thawed dead rotten fish, or a freshly dead and frozen fish?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 12:27:09 PM
Ask yourself this....

Why would it be a Yeti, and not for instance a giant purple penguin?  This theory requires a big non human animal....  Why not a flying Mothman or a shapeshifting Chupacabra?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 01:28:44 PM
I think I would say that there appears to have been something large and powerful with potentially 30cm long hands.  I don't actually know that it was a Yeti or if they exist.  There seems to have been some strange hapenings though.  It definitely wasn't a penguin - no hands.  I don't think it was unicorns farting either. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 29, 2019, 06:36:01 PM
 bigjoke

fair enough.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 29, 2019, 11:44:58 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:41:49 PM
I agree, which is why concluding anything was ripped or cut out when it only states 'missing' is an extreme stretch in my opinion. Especially when the report specifically states.....

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

There is ample evidence this was caused by decomposition, and we have nothing to suggest it was anything else such as but not limited to ripped ot cut out.

Ample Evidence  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:46:15 PM
Quote
But surely if the movement of the Hyoid Bone is normal due to Decomposition then why bother to mention this in the Autopsy Report  !  ?   It appears to have been mentioned because its not a normal thing to happen.

The decomposition is what makes it "not normal".....   She was found with her head and neck slumped over a boulder. Is it not possible for the weight of her body and the rotten nature of the area to cause movement in cartilage that has movement to begin with?   Again, is it easier to wiggle a bone loose from a thawed dead rotten fish, or a freshly dead and frozen fish?

But why does the Autopsy Report report the Unusual Movement ! ? You are saying that Decomposition is normal in this particular case  !  ?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
Ask yourself this....

Why would it be a Yeti, and not for instance a giant purple penguin?  This theory requires a big non human animal....  Why not a flying Mothman or a shapeshifting Chupacabra?

Giant Purple Penguin  !  ?  But people have been reporting large Ape like Creatures for hundreds of years right up to present times. I dont see or hear of any reports of GIANT PURPLE PENGUINS though.  Flying Creatures have been reported and also Shapeshifters. And Chupacabra.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on August 31, 2019, 12:56:32 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on August 31, 2019, 05:31:23 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.

I think it's important to have an open mind on these things.  It is equally important to have the devils advocate who challenges the strange and weird ideas.  LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?  All ideas, theories and evidence needs to be tested.

One thing though.  Like all criminal cases the dpi requires evidence.  How do we get this evidence:

Existing case files
People visiting the area and investigating themselves ( take hat off to you)
Converting existing ambiguous evidence into solid evidence through analytical techniques and expertise.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 31, 2019, 05:39:27 PM
Quote
LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?

I would guess there is a certain percentage of more modest and verbally conservative then myself.   lol4
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: track hunter on August 31, 2019, 10:59:35 PM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man
I recommend to read http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org/index.html, And this is our Russian site. Enough evidence http://alamas.ru/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 01, 2019, 04:35:32 AM
The Patterson hoax is the main picture....  I don't care who you are, thats funny right there.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
Would just like to go back to the Lyuda's hyoid bone and it's "unusual" movement.  The autopsy reports of all three of the other rav 4 report that the hyoid bone is intact.  Curious.  If the unusual movement of the hyoid bone were due to decomposition and is normal, why aren't the hyoid bones of the other three moving unusually?  They have been there for just as long in the stream bed?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2019, 06:44:54 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:42:33 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:46:03 PM
Where are the forensic details on the foot prints?  Does anyone here think that the case files reflect an adequate  investigation of the foot prints?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Morski on September 02, 2019, 10:50:55 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man

If I remember correctly, she was slumped over the rock, face down, and water was running through her open mouth. So...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:57:13 PM
There is a lot of information available in the case files on the clothing.  We know what they were wearing, whether it was torn, cut or burned.  We not whether it was shabby or not.  But another question for me is where is the analysis of the biological samples - blood stains - although DNA analysis was nt available in 1959 blood groups were easily discernible and the difference between human and non human blood types could be resolved.  Again in a criminal investigation would you not look for blood groups that did not match the hikers?  These are just some peculiarities.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
Because she was slumped over a rock.

Why would being slumped over a rock make any difference?

Regards

Star man

If I remember correctly, she was slumped over the rock, face down, and water was running through her open mouth. So...

I was wondering the same thing.  So did any of the others in the stream bed have their heads in water?  I'll have to look into that.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 02, 2019, 11:45:09 PM
Quote from the main website:

The bodies of the men cannot be identified without removing them from the water.

This suggests that the men in the ravine had their faces in the water too?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 05:52:30 AM
Welp....   the three males were on their side with their mouths facing down stream. Think about sticking your head out of a car window at speed.... is there a difference between facing the airstream vs the back of your head towards the airstream?  In addition, the female had the weight of her upper body slumped of a rock applying pressure in odd areas, most likely the neck.  In addition, if the tongue was rotten, and the mouth open facing the incoming water stream, it would flop around in the mouth.  The hyoid bone is connected to the tongue just below the jaw and controls movement of the tongue particularly when swallowing.... what you you think will happen to a bone that controls the tongue in a facing the water stream plopping around while rotten will do to the hyoid bone?   Perhaps give it some "unusual" movement?    Remember, if the tongue was missing from decomposition but the hyoid bone remains without the flesh that it connects to..... would it have movement?   Again, if you lay out a dead fish to decompose and the flesh is rotten and even missing around the ribs..... would the ribs have movement?   

This is common sense stuff that shouldn't have to be explained in detail. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 08:49:49 AM
Ok.  Some good points.  We should probably expect a faster rate of decay given that Lyuda face and open mouth was directly in the flow of the water.  But the mention of “unusual “ movement of the hyoid in Lyuda autopsy report is still suspicious, especially as the autopsy reports of the others specifically mention that they are intact.  Why differentiate between those with intact hyoid bone and those with “unusual “ movement?

The autopsy reports do not mention any other type of intact bones.  He didn’t say ankle bones were in intact for instance.  Why specifically mention the hyoid bone?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 09:30:58 AM
I dunno...  perhaps they were secretly trying to hide that Yeti is a double agent for the KGB and has a weird fetish for hyoid bone necklaces.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 03, 2019, 12:41:54 PM
The Yeti theory is still in the hat. The problem I have with it is there is no ripping, tearing, shredding of skin that would occur (I would think) with an animal so big and with claws like a bear. Also biting. If it had been any kind of an animal the marks and wounds would show this type of pattern. What I see is kicking, hitting with fists, etc.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 04:21:18 PM
I dunno...  perhaps they were secretly trying to hide that Yeti is a double agent for the KGB and has a weird fetish for hyoid bone necklaces.

Putting Yetis aside - when I first started looking at the dpi I thought that the missing eyes and tongue could easily be explained by small animal predation and natural decay processes.  But closer examination of the injuries points to something more sinister in my opinion, and this raises the question about the other reported body damage including  Lyuda's tongue and other facial injuries and Semyon's eyes and facial injuries.  The two people with  the more significant flail chest injuries both also have missing eyes and other facial damage.  The unusual movement of Lyuda's hyoid bone may be an important clue.  It should also be noted that Lyuda had 100 cc of red mucous mass in her stomach which is likely to be blood.  This would point towards the tongue being removed before she died.  If this is the case then I doubt that the tongue was removed by small animal predator or decay.  I Think the hyoid bone and it's state as reported in the autopsy could really do with expert comment.  Unfortunately I am not an expert in this field.

The hyoid bone combined with coagulated blood in the stomach of Lyuda points towards the tongue being forcibly removed.  If this is the case then I suspect her and Semyon's eyes may also have been forcibly removed, but still may be the result of small animal and birds.  I think these clues are important for any theory that proposes a violent end for the dpi group.

Regards

star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 04:30:44 PM
The Yeti theory is still in the hat. The problem I have with it is there is no ripping, tearing, shredding of skin that would occur (I would think) with an animal so big and with claws like a bear. Also biting. If it had been any kind of an animal the marks and wounds would show this type of pattern. What I see is kicking, hitting with fists, etc.

I don't think that we should assume that a Yeti has razor sharp claws like a bear.  Nevertheless, you make a very good point.  Where are the bite marks?  A Gorilla with its human like nails is still actually capable of disembowelling a human.  Is it possible that whatever attacked them did not have time to utilise all of its natural weapons because it too was under attack, by the people who were attempting to defend their friends?  The knife is still missing.  What happened to it.  Was it used in defence of those who were mauled?  Was it plunged into something that limped away with a knife stuck in its hide?  I don't know.  But a very good question.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 07:23:24 PM
In addition, the forums autopsy reports need to be updated/copied from the parent site.  Until we get around to doing that, I would suggest using the translated version on dyatlovpass.com as Teddy herself translated the report and would be MUCH more accurate then what google translate does. 

The correct translation 'extraordinary'

Quote
there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.


There happens to be THREE definition uses for the word extraordinary.

Extraordinary
EXTRAOR'DINARY, adjective extror'dinary. [Latin extraordinarius; extra and ordinarius, usual, from ordo, order.]

1. Beyond or out of the common order or method; not in the usual, customary or regular course; not ordinary. extraordinary evils require extraordinary remedies.

2. Exceeding the common degree or measure; hence, remarkable; uncommon; rare; wonderful; as the extraordinary talents of Shakespeare; the extraordinary powers of Newton; an edifice of extraordinary grandeur.

3. Special; particular; sent for a special purpose, or on a particular occasion; as an extraordinary courier or messenger; an embassador extraordinary; a gazette extraordinary



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 03, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
Now, if I broke my leg and the doctor said there is extraordinary movement of the bones....  does this warrant a bigfoot investigation?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 10:53:51 PM
Now, if I broke my leg and the doctor said there is extraordinary movement of the bones....  does this warrant a bigfoot investigation?

It would not be first line of investigation.  But then it was not my first line of investigation of the dpi either.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 03, 2019, 11:03:13 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color

Well the independent pathologist report does confirm my own assumption that the chest injuries were unlikely to have been caused by multiple blows from a human.  Large surface area impact such as fall or car crash.  There are no tyre tracks.  Have already discussed toughts on possibility of fall.  Although he says the eyes and tongue "could" have been caused by decomposition and predation he refers back the the opinion of the original pathologist who doesn't say a lot about it.  I'll have to have another look at that.

Regards

Star man

Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone. 

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:01:15 AM
Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone

can only mean.....


(https://i2.wp.com/awesci.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yeti.jpg?resize=672%2C372)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:06:15 AM
Quote
who doesn't say a lot about it

 shock1   holy crap....  its all over the place.  Slipping that, rotten this, greenish that.  1/3rd of the conclusion at the bottom points out the body and particularly the head is rotten and decayed.   What do you call it when organisms feed on flesh? 


I can't even grab ahold of my own tongue....  how Yeti with hands big enough to pop a head like a grape do it? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 06:19:38 AM
It wasn't all blood in the stomach, but still....  she had massive internal bleeding.   Whats the point?  Are you suggesting that blood in the stomach can ONLY be a result of yeti ripping out the tongue?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
Missing tongue + blood in stomach + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone

can only mean.....


(https://i2.wp.com/awesci.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/yeti.jpg?resize=672%2C372)

Nice picture.  Not quite what I was imagining though. 

Obviously the hyoid bone , tongue and blood would not in itself lead one to the conclusion in the attached picture.  And yes Lyuda was decomposing in the stream (God bless her).  I am merely pointing out that there are three pieces of information that point towards a conclusion and that is not necessarily a white one eyed cyclops yeti or any other yeti.   

If something looks like a duck and walks like a duck then it probably is a duck.

Brown + soft/sticky + smells like poo = chocolate ice cream?

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 08:56:41 AM
It wasn't all blood in the stomach, but still....  she had massive internal bleeding.   Whats the point?  Are you suggesting that blood in the stomach can ONLY be a result of yeti ripping out the tongue?

How else could the blood have gotten into her stomach?  Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 09:08:51 AM
Quote
Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Says who?

Ever had a nose bleed?  You don't know whether or not she had a busted lip, or bit her own tongue prior to dying and subsequently it rotting away.    whist1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 10:13:38 AM
How does Bigfoot cause them to have aortas three times the size they should be? 

The tonge....  please perform an experiment.  Put on a  catchers mitt and attempt an extraction on a family member? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 04, 2019, 10:15:33 AM
Quote
Unlikely from internal bleeding into plural cavity.

Says who?

Ever had a nose bleed?  You don't know whether or not she had a busted lip, or bit her own tongue prior to dying and subsequently it rotting away.    whist1

Yeah, could have been a nose bleed or bleeding mouth.

So being objective:

No tongue + unusual hyoid bone + blood could be a result of:

Natural decay
Or
Predation
Or
Violent attack

Any other options?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2019, 10:29:13 AM
Quote
No tongue + extraordinary movement of the hyoid bone + blood could be a result of:

fixed it for ya. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:01:56 AM
Where do I currently stand on this?

As I said above I am not claiming that the dpi was caused by a Yeti.  We don’t know if they exist.  However if you laid out all of the current theories in a circle and placed a indicative evidence compass in the middle I would say that to me it seems to be pointing strongly at the possibility of some kind of large powerful ape like creature and slightly towards the military test.  The only known species of ape I think is capable of causing those injury patterns is a Gorilla.  So I still think the compass is pointing towards the military test using some kind of ape as a test subject:

Ape + radiation + cover up =?

But if it wasn’t something like that then it seems to me that we are left with the really bizarre possibilities of a Yeti or some other weird thing.

Regards

Star man

We are moving towards the unknown. When I first came upon this Dyatlov Mystery My first thoughts was that it was some kind of Creature, whether of this World or whatever. Then I became interested in the UFO reports. And then the Radiation reports. ETC ETC.

I think it's important to have an open mind on these things.  It is equally important to have the devils advocate who challenges the strange and weird ideas.  LC does a good job at this but I am surprised that there are not more?  All ideas, theories and evidence needs to be tested.

One thing though.  Like all criminal cases the dpi requires evidence.  How do we get this evidence:

Existing case files
People visiting the area and investigating themselves ( take hat off to you)
Converting existing ambiguous evidence into solid evidence through analytical techniques and expertise.

Regards

Star man

Yes we certainly need this sort of cross examination etc. Despite the fact that this Dyatlov Incident is now 60 years old its only in more recent times that proper Investigating as been done. Well as far as we know. Because we do not know whether or not the Authorities have been doing anything in secret. There is certainly a lot of MISSING EVIDENCE.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:07:33 AM
There is a lot of information available in the case files on the clothing.  We know what they were wearing, whether it was torn, cut or burned.  We not whether it was shabby or not.  But another question for me is where is the analysis of the biological samples - blood stains - although DNA analysis was nt available in 1959 blood groups were easily discernible and the difference between human and non human blood types could be resolved.  Again in a criminal investigation would you not look for blood groups that did not match the hikers?  These are just some peculiarities.

Regards

Star man

Maybe the Authorities did check up on that. And maybe they found something interesting. And maybe with the other factors it led them to IMMEDIATELY close the Case and seal off the area in question for several years.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:17:42 AM
Welp....   the three males were on their side with their mouths facing down stream. Think about sticking your head out of a car window at speed.... is there a difference between facing the airstream vs the back of your head towards the airstream?  In addition, the female had the weight of her upper body slumped of a rock applying pressure in odd areas, most likely the neck.  In addition, if the tongue was rotten, and the mouth open facing the incoming water stream, it would flop around in the mouth.  The hyoid bone is connected to the tongue just below the jaw and controls movement of the tongue particularly when swallowing.... what you you think will happen to a bone that controls the tongue in a facing the water stream plopping around while rotten will do to the hyoid bone?   Perhaps give it some "unusual" movement?    Remember, if the tongue was missing from decomposition but the hyoid bone remains without the flesh that it connects to..... would it have movement?   Again, if you lay out a dead fish to decompose and the flesh is rotten and even missing around the ribs..... would the ribs have movement?   

This is common sense stuff that shouldn't have to be explained in detail.

Its a shame that the Autopsy Reports were not more SPECIFIC. So many factors in The Dyatlov Case point to something not quite right.  Also in the Autopsy Report were there is the possibility of a Crime having been committed you would have thought that there would have been some kind of explanation regarding the Unusual Movement of the Hyoid Bone. Any Medical Experts out there  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:21:47 AM
Ok.  Some good points.  We should probably expect a faster rate of decay given that Lyuda face and open mouth was directly in the flow of the water.  But the mention of “unusual “ movement of the hyoid in Lyuda autopsy report is still suspicious, especially as the autopsy reports of the others specifically mention that they are intact.  Why differentiate between those with intact hyoid bone and those with “unusual “ movement?

The autopsy reports do not mention any other type of intact bones.  He didn’t say ankle bones were in intact for instance.  Why specifically mention the hyoid bone?

Regards

Star man

Probably because like so many other aspects of this Dyatlov Case something is not quite right. Any Autopsy Report were there is the possibility of Criminal Action having taken place, will be more SPECIFIC.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 05, 2019, 05:38:29 AM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ? 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 09, 2019, 07:58:40 AM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 09, 2019, 09:20:44 PM
My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 09, 2019, 11:47:17 PM
My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....

My own personal thoughts on the missing tongue is that yes, it could have been from insects/fish but why was the tongue exposed in the first place? It appears from the autopsy Lyudia had red substance in her stomach, which could have been blood. I don't know what else it could have been. If the tongue was cut/bitten and there was blood in the mouth, that would signal insects/fish to that area of her body. I can only assume the eyes were the result of insects/fish/decay. But the tongue very well may have been bitten half off which would draw predatory insects.

How far into the water was her body and for how long? total of 3 months or only wet for 1 month  or even 2 weeks? This  info would factor into the tongue being eaten by insects as otherwise she was frozen completely until starting to defrost. Dyatlov was frozen but pretty much exposed and his eyes were not missing. So, it is a question and a mystery.

That is my thought on the tongue being missing....

The red substance in the stomach probably was blood.  The question is where was it from.  There are several plausible explanations including:

Bleeding from the nose.  Lyuda’s nose cartilage was flattened, possibly by some kind of impact/blow.  It could have been blood from this.  It could have been from bleedingl lips, gums etc or it could be because her tongue was bitten off or ripped out. 

You make a good point about the partial damage biting of the tongue and subsequent acceleration of decay.  I think it is a good question about how long the body was in the water.

I don’t think we will be able to answer all these questions with any certainty without additional forensic evidence though.

Sometimes though, the absence of evidence is almost as striking as the evidence itself imo.  A kind of smoking gun as the saying goes.  An example of this imp is the absence of detailed forensic information about the foot prints. 

Everything leaves a trace.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 15, 2019, 04:06:34 PM
Was the door to the tent fully open, partially open or closed that night on the pass?  Was just reading Akselrod's statement again and he states that only some of the toggles were open.  He also states that the back of the tent is pulled tight and therefore it would be difficult for someone to crawl out.  Is there any other evidence or information on whether the door was found open or closed?  Or is Akselrod simply relaying what he thinks may have happened? This information may be important.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 16, 2019, 01:44:06 PM
There are conflicting statements within the case files.... WAB says the opening had the lower section unbuttoned and it is possible for humans to enter/exit in that configuration. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 16, 2019, 02:07:58 PM
There are conflicting statements within the case files.... WAB says the opening had the lower section unbuttoned and it is possible for humans to enter/exit in that configuration.

WAB's statement would align with Akselrod's then.  Probably wouldn't need much of an opening to crawl in or out.  Slobstov found the tent, but haven't seen any statements he made about whether the toggles were fastened or not.  I'll continue to peruse the files.  Thanks.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 17, 2019, 11:48:03 PM
Have been wondering again what the relationship is between the cedar and the den.    A question for me is:

 Did the two Yuris and the ravine 4 arrive at the cedar together or did the rav 4 find the cedar later? 

My impression from the information in the files is that they arrived together.  There are statements about there being more work completed than two people could achieve etc.  There is also the half burned women’s handkerchief.  We know the rav 4 were there at some point as they took the clothing and used it.  Also thinking about Akselrod’s statement the wind was not too strong as Rustems hat would likely be blown off.  But common sense might be a better guide given the above information and the fact that the den was only about 75m from the cedar.  If both the Yuris and the rav 4 were at these locations at the same time then I think they would be able to hear each other and smell the smoke from the fire.  Also unless they were compelled to separate they would know that their chance of surviving would be better if they stayed together.  So there is enough evidence to support this.

So if the above is true, then why was there no fire at the den site?  You would think that they would build a den and a fire if they could.

Is it possible that they were in the process of moving from the cedar to the den and had not had time to light a fire yet?  Is it also possible that if they were attacked at the den by whatever/whoever that Kolevatov was at the cedar collecting clothing and anything else that may have been useful and therefore he was not at the den when the attack happened!

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 18, 2019, 06:59:19 PM
Yeah...  I dunno.  Lots of variables and possibilities.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 19, 2019, 11:08:19 PM
Just some more searching questions about the three cuts that appear to have been made from the inside of the tent.  There were two small cuts and one cut just under 90cm.  There were also some scratch marks as if other attempts had been made with a knife but they didn’t penetrate the fabric.

We don’t know for sure who made these cuts but for argument sake if we assume that the Dyatlov group made them then what circumstances would they have needed to cut the tent?

The three main reasons that come to my mind are:

The main entrance was somehow not available.  However from my understanding I think the cuts were fairly close to the entrance.

They were trying to slash at someone or something outside the tent

The tent had collapsed in the middle and the hikers being in distress for some reason decided to cut the tent to get out.

Any other possibilities?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 21, 2019, 12:30:33 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Well put. This is the way to carry out any kind of proper investigation, which means that the Russian or should I say Soviet Government clearly did not carry out a proper investigation FOR SOME REASON.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 21, 2019, 03:59:43 PM
Your in luck.   

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

Quote
The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Quote
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Quote
When palpating the neck, there is extraordinary mobility of the thyrohyal and thyroid cartilages.

Quote
Diaphragm of mouth and tongue absent. The upper margin of the hyoid bone is exposed.

Quote
There is no tongue in the oral cavity. Mucous cavities of the mouth are gray-greenish in color



Interesting.   Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

The death of Dubinina is through violence.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenny)

So if Dubininas body was underwater then we should have expected more ROT and DECAY  !  ?  So why wasnt more of the Body Soft Tissues MISSING etc. Why just those at the Head part of the Body  !  ?

The dpi is a complicated mystery made up of different components:

The tent
The slope
The cedar
The ravine

Each of the above components has sub components. 

Each of the components and sub components may have different possible explanations and taken in isolation they may seem justified.  The problem comes when you try to explain each of the explanations of the various components in a logical and sensible way.  If it doesn’t fit together holistically the narrative soon unravels.

For example the facial injuries and the tongue could very well have been the result of decay and predation, but we are still left with three bodies each with major trauma that is uncharacteristic of them all falling and which requires forced beyond normal human capabilities.  The autopsy reports their deaths as violent.  So then you ask yourself is it likely or unlikely that the facial injuries and tongue are natural decay and predation? 

Just to illustrate this principle using an analogy:

If you discovered a body on the beach with a severed leg lying next to it, and several metres away there was also a beached dead great white shark, how would you conclude the persons leg was severed?  It could have been a result of a boating accident?  It could have been severed by jagged rocks? Both are possible.  Or would you think there was a good chance that the shark had something to do with it?

Regards

Star man

Well put. This is the way to carry out any kind of proper investigation, which means that the Russian or should I say Soviet Government clearly did not carry out a proper investigation FOR SOME REASON.

Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 24, 2019, 08:40:29 AM
If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:

9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on September 30, 2019, 11:32:15 AM
Quoted from Star Man

[[  Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?  ]]

 [[  If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:
9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?  ]]


Yes I know what you mean. I mention the obvious first and that is that it must surely be clear to most Investigators that the Authorities did not carry out a proper Investigation for one reason or another.
And the more any Investigator looks into this mystery the more they will suspect that something is ODD. But we dont have any real evidence that the Dyatlov Group was attacked and killed by a MENK  !  ?  But yes if that was the case then Iam sure that most Investigators would conclude that the Case was quickly closed in the Interests of The Public so as not to cause ALARM etc. Much like we still get plenty of UFO sightings and experiences and the Authorities which ever Country they may be in are quick to close such reports down and pass them off as natural phenomenon or whatever. Anything bar the TRUTH. Whatever the TRUTH may be.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 01:53:21 PM
Quoted from Star Man

[[  Or, do you mean they did carry out a proper investigation but the proper investigation is not what is presented in the available files?  ]]

 [[  If you are one of those who believe that there is something odd about the investigation and that there is evidence of a cover up  let me ask you this question:
9 hikers die in the wilderness and there is evidence that they were attacked and killed by a Menk.  Why would the authorities try to withhold such evidence and cover up the case?  What possible motive could they have?  ]]


Yes I know what you mean. I mention the obvious first and that is that it must surely be clear to most Investigators that the Authorities did not carry out a proper Investigation for one reason or another.
And the more any Investigator looks into this mystery the more they will suspect that something is ODD. But we dont have any real evidence that the Dyatlov Group was attacked and killed by a MENK  !  ?  But yes if that was the case then Iam sure that most Investigators would conclude that the Case was quickly closed in the Interests of The Public so as not to cause ALARM etc. Much like we still get plenty of UFO sightings and experiences and the Authorities which ever Country they may be in are quick to close such reports down and pass them off as natural phenomenon or whatever. Anything bar the TRUTH. Whatever the TRUTH may be.

Well I think one thing is fairly clear and that is that the dpi was not caused by some natural event such as an avalanche or weather as any of these events would not warrant any kind of cover up.  Why would you cover up a strong wind?  That leaves weirdness, man made accidents, or murder.  But I still think Thibo's head injury and the shape of the depressed fracture being identical to the ball of a very large thumb is difficult to explain away and what are the chances of this simply being a coincidence?  Then when you consider that the thumb would need to have belonged to a hand the size of an A4 sheet of paper we are into the weird.  But then when you look at the rib fractures and the forces required to inflict them, a 30cm long hand makes perfect sense. 

Regards

Star mam
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on September 30, 2019, 04:30:39 PM
Starman: When you say the depression in his head was like a huge thumb, I have trouble imagining any beast hitting someone's head with their thumb. If the hiker's head was grabbed by the beast's hand, and the thumb was pressed into the side of his head making this fracture, then the other side of his head or neck should also show trauma if his head was indeed "squeezed" by a huge hand....
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 11:37:23 PM
Starman: When you say the depression in his head was like a huge thumb, I have trouble imagining any beast hitting someone's head with their thumb. If the hiker's head was grabbed by the beast's hand, and the thumb was pressed into the side of his head making this fracture, then the other side of his head or neck should also show trauma if his head was indeed "squeezed" by a huge hand....

When I say thumb I am talking about the ball of the thumb at the base.  Imagine Thibo is on the ground on his side.  His head is on the snow.  Now imagine this hand coming down really fast and hard and continuing to push with full force and weight behind it.  The base of the hand and ball of the thumb is where maximum force is applied.

Does that make it any clearer?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on September 30, 2019, 11:41:30 PM
Jarrfan.  Thinking about what you said about Thibo’s head injury being on both sides.  Have a look at Rustem head injuries.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 01, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
Some thoughts on the sequence of events based on the idea that they were attacked by something at the tent:

If something attacked them then it was probably terrifying and dangerous enough to cause them to leave their only safe means of survival with insufficient clothing to survive the cold weather for any significant length of time .  They move down the slope towards the tree line and spot a tall cedar that is prominent on the landscape.  They move towards and climb the cedar to escape the threat on the ground.  They cling to the cedar for some time until they believe the threat has moved away.  By this time the two Yuris are in a bad way and the group desperately try to light a fire.  When the fire is lit it is already too late for the two Yuris who have lost too much body heat.  They or their friends try to warm their numb limbs and bodies, burning their skin in the process.  The Yuris die.

The cedar - even with the fire is too exposed and not the best place for a shelter so they scout around for a better place to hide and shelter themselves.  They decide to build a shelter in the nearby ravine and begin setting it up and moving branches and clothing across to the ravine.  They cut the clothing off the Yuris and use some themselves and other pieces to insulate them from the ground.  Before the shelter is complete and a fire is lit the threat returns and attacks those in the ravine.  Kolevatov is at the cedar.  He hears the screams, drops the clothing he is carrying and tries to get back to his friends but it is too late.  Maybe Kolevatov fights off the attacker with the knife and sticks it into the attacker.   There is now not much Kolevatov can do other than try to comfort his dying friends, eventually dying himself.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 01, 2019, 11:19:35 AM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 01, 2019, 02:44:41 PM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.

Thibo's depressed fracture would have taken a force in the region of 450kg but without any soft tissue damage.  The two linear fractures extent under and through the saddle of the skull and around the front to the occipital region.  The linear fractures alone would require a significant force, so the full force of this injury would have been significant and beyond any human capability using bare hands.  Slobodin's skull fracture is less significant but follows a similar pattern.  The flail chests and fractured ribs would also require forces in excess of a normal human.  Yet, the injuries are very specific.  For accidental falls there is a 25 to 70% chance of receiving other injuries to ankles, wrists, arms and legs etc, but there are no such injuries.  Now the chances of all three falling and not sustaining the other types of injuries to extremities is remote.  Now combine the above with the fact that Thibo's head injury is pretty much identical in shape to the pad of the ball of a thumb and it starts getting pretty weird. 

I tried comparing the ratio of major and minor axis of Thibo's elliptical depressed fracture with my own thumb:

Thibo's fracture = 1.25
My thumb = 1.27

I think I got that the right way round.

That's is pretty much the same shape.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 02, 2019, 10:09:11 AM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 02, 2019, 02:27:45 PM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 07, 2019, 02:37:56 PM
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man

Just another thought on the above - in the autopsy reports there are many reports of bruises on the bodies, so I doubt that the skin colour and mottling would have hidden any bruising around the major injuries of the rav 4.  Another possibility is that the injuries occurred after they had died, but there is also evidence that they were still alive when they received the injuries such as bleeding from the heart into the plural cavity.

Another option is that the injuries were caused by powerful blows but with softer pads of a hand?  As previously explored maybe a very large hand?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on October 08, 2019, 12:42:33 PM
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.

Thibo's depressed fracture would have taken a force in the region of 450kg but without any soft tissue damage.  The two linear fractures extent under and through the saddle of the skull and around the front to the occipital region.  The linear fractures alone would require a significant force, so the full force of this injury would have been significant and beyond any human capability using bare hands.  Slobodin's skull fracture is less significant but follows a similar pattern.  The flail chests and fractured ribs would also require forces in excess of a normal human.  Yet, the injuries are very specific.  For accidental falls there is a 25 to 70% chance of receiving other injuries to ankles, wrists, arms and legs etc, but there are no such injuries.  Now the chances of all three falling and not sustaining the other types of injuries to extremities is remote.  Now combine the above with the fact that Thibo's head injury is pretty much identical in shape to the pad of the ball of a thumb and it starts getting pretty weird. 

I tried comparing the ratio of major and minor axis of Thibo's elliptical depressed fracture with my own thumb:

Thibo's fracture = 1.25
My thumb = 1.27

I think I got that the right way round.

That's is pretty much the same shape.

Regards

Star man

Well I have to say that you are providing good food for thought in your detailed descriptions.  It certainly goes against the grain of any of the usual official lines which tend to suggest the simplest explanations like FALLS or run of the mill fist FIGHTS etc. And there is a reason why that is the case because the AUTHORITIES covered up this case as quick as they could because something extraordinary and probably unearthly happened.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 08, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Thanks.  It does seem to appear that something very strange happened to the hikers.  Maybe one more key piece of evidence might be enough to remove any doubt?  The problem is finding it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 10, 2019, 06:57:13 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 10, 2019, 11:55:19 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 11, 2019, 05:15:23 PM
Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 12, 2019, 03:26:20 PM
Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.

The interesting thing about Slobodin's head injuries is that they are directly opposite each other in the temporal region.  Such injuries are unlikely to be the result of a fall, and more like a blow of some kind. 

Maybe the soft tissue damage is a red herring as it is not always obvious.  But the pathologists seam to puzzle over the lack of soft tissue damage on Thibo and I am simply reflecting their analysis.

The injuries of the rav 4 and the way in which they were inflicted are key to understanding what happened IMO.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:22:13 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.   
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:25:07 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 12, 2019, 05:29:08 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:31:29 PM


Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:33:58 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

Hit by something (piece of wood or ice?) while being held against something (another person or a tree?) ? Lying on the floor with his head on one side while being hit from above?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:39:55 PM
Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other.  My theory of choice is that the bloody snot froze in his nose leaving no room for expansion when his brain froze.  Why do you think water pipes crack in freezing temps?  Don't be distracted by the bruising that may have happened prior and by something different. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 05:46:21 PM
Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other. 

There was a fracture on one side and hemorrhage on both sides (just checked the illustration on the website). To me it looks like from pressing his head against the tree or ground and then hitting or crushing the head with a heavy piece of something.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Several of them had bruising to various places on the skull including the temples.  In my opinion, the bruise in question 'may' have nothing to do with the fracture. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7c64/b8236bb6e3be19ffaadce1be3db75a7f1809.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJoZ-FgpjlAhVE5awKHeapDV4QFjAOegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1m7upnILv8JhtF1pEESUnE&cshid=1570927902831
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 12, 2019, 06:06:17 PM
Several of them had bruising to various places on the skull including the temples.  In my opinion, the bruise in question 'may' have nothing to do with the fracture. 

Just on the first sight, looks like a different type of fracture. My logic is that inner pressure of liquid as a result of refrigeration would have caused a fracture at the weakest point which does not seem to be the place on Slobodin's head. That is why I lean towards a blow of a blunt object here. I cannot rule out one or another without expert opinion, though.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 12, 2019, 06:25:21 PM
Variables and conditions....

I would imagine the brain areas near the thin portions of the skull would start to freeze first, thus further reinforcing those areas.  It would seem to be the base of the skiskullll that cracks first, but what happens when your face down in snow with the back/base of the skull exposed to negative temps?   I can imagine a brain freezing under these circumstances from rear to front. 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 02:11:02 PM
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 02:13:19 PM
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

He could have received this blow while on the ground.  A blow to one side and his head hits the ground on the other.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 13, 2019, 03:45:12 PM


Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...

The blows to the chest of Semyon and Lyuda happened while they were on the ground.  if they had been hit while they were standing then the force would have propelled them horizontally quite some distance in the same way a body would be propelled if hit by a vehicle.  We should expect to see other significant injuries if this were the case but we don't see any.  So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows. 

A very heavy flat or smooth rock between 150kg and 300kg dropped between 1 to 2 metres would be required to cause similar injuries.  It would be difficult to recreate those injuries with a log or piece of ice.  Yes blows from a piece of wood will break ribs but not 6 ribs at a time in a vertical straight line .  A single rib can take a force of about 270kg before it breaks and will absorb a lot of energy in the process.  The combined strength of 6 ribs would need a force in the region of 1.6 tonnes. Lyuda had 6 to 7 rib fractures on either side of her chest.  It's possible that the fractures could have been the result of two blows of similar force - one on each side.

For a log to create those injuries it would need to be heavy or moving very fast, but more interestingly it would need to make contact with all of the ribs that were broken which means it would have to hit the body at a very flat angle and in a vertical direction.  A person swinging a log or baton etc would not be able to hit the body at such a flat angle if they were standing over them or if the victim was standing up.   To recreate that angle with a log or baton they would have to be kneeling kind of over their feet or above their head and hit them flat on their chest.  It would require a very specific set of circumstances and a significant force, which I may need to do some calculations on.  But to be honest why would anyone kill three of the rav 4 with log or baton, spare Kolevatov the same fate and leave Semyon with a camera?  Why not just shoot them?  I suppose there is the option that Kolevatov himself used a log and killed them as an act of mercy to spare them from a slow death of freezing?  I don't think this is likely though.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 13, 2019, 04:30:47 PM

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 13, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
Regarding the camera, perhaps it was not visible at the time of the injuries, hidden by his clothing?
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 14, 2019, 03:14:38 PM
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.

A fall could create the injuries, but there should be other injuries to limbs from a fall which are absent.  It very unlikely that all three would have no limb injuries.

A log or baton to Thibo's head is possible though.  But the other injuries would also need to be explained and this is not so easy.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 14, 2019, 04:02:16 PM

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.

I agree that we should not rule out a particular theory until we have conclusive evidence to the contrary.  I don't think that it is possible to rule out human attack yet, but the available evidence and pattern of events doesn't point very strongly in that direction IMO.  That doesn't mean there is no indirect human involvement either.

One thing that I will say is that thanks to your questioning approach to the injuries you may have helped provide me with another piece of evidence, or at least to exclude some options as more unlikely:

I have been looking at the injuries and the suggestion that they may have been caused by a person hitting them with a log or a club etc.  I have made some calculations around this type of attack to help put it into perspective.  If we take Lyuda's chest injuries for example.   Each or possibly even both sides of her ribs simultaneously took a single and very powerful blow.  As stated in a previous post to inflict those injuries would require a significant force with an energy in the range of 2400 joules.  The object delivering the force/energy would need to come into contact with all of the ribs fractured, or the sternum at a flat angle of no more that several degrees.  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 15, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man

What about a larger object like a wooden log or a piece of ice somewhere from the ravine? An average person can quite easily lift 30-50 lilograms above their head / 2-2,2m/ and drop it onto somebody lying on the ground. That would be about 6.5m/s velocity thus dynamic force of circa 300kg which could be enough to cause rib or skull fractures (exact number would differ from person to person and can only be measured by experiment and forensic analysis).

I am lazy with calculations so I found a website that have a free fall calculator:)) https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/free-fall

Just one more point regarding the position on the ground while receiving the trauma. I would say it is easier to cause fracture to a person which is positioned against firm ground compared to standing. That is exaclty why rib fractures happen during resuscitation, the ribs have no space to extend even though they are quite flexible so they tend to break more easily. Also repeated use of force (like stomping or hammer fist) can cause rib fractures if the person is on the ground. I discussed this stuff with doctors and it should be taken into account that the force needed differs according to the position of the body (I have no specific numbers though). A hit in the rib cage of a standing person needs more power because part of that energy is 'spent' on the movement to the other side and more power is absorbed by tissue and bones if they have enaough space to stretch and extend.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
The problem is the type of injury.  If you look at Lyuda’s left rib fractures you can see that they all line up which indicates a large force over a wide area.  Even if you assume the ribs weaken from repeated compression what is the likelihood of them all failing in a straight line?  Also the flail chest on the right requires a similar amount of force but it would have to be from a single fast blow IMO.  This aligns with the thoughts of the pathologists who examined the bodies.

A dropped 50kg load even with a 300kg impact is unlikely to break all those ribs simultaneously.  A club impact as discussed would require a force of about 150kg at handle.  It’s not credible.  Anyone can try this if they want but you need to it safely if you do.  If you have take a piece of wood or let’s say a  long sledge hammer and put the top on a table.  Hold the end of the handle at arms length and now push down until you are applying 150kg of force.  First unless weigh at least 150kg you would find that your feet will lift off the floor and you would need to push your body up at arms length.  That is the force that would need to be applied consistently throughout the swing.  Obviously you will not be able to do this and I Doubt that you will be able to move your body off the ground at all .

The only way would be to lift a 150 - 300 kg bolder and drop it on them from 1 to 2 metres

Regards
Star man



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 16, 2019, 01:58:18 AM
It could be measured in the similar way they calculate deformation in crash tests with cars and figurines... there could be a thin line between breaking and not breaking the ribs... Also we should consider the area of impact (smaller area usually inflicts more damage). I would really be interested what damage could a piece of wood do when hitting a rob cage from 2m height with the edge (considering the edge would be exactly the size that fits the pattern of the broken ribs)
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 04:57:21 AM
It could be measured in the similar way they calculate deformation in crash tests with cars and figurines... there could be a thin line between breaking and not breaking the ribs... Also we should consider the area of impact (smaller area usually inflicts more damage). I would really be interested what damage could a piece of wood do when hitting a rob cage from 2m height with the edge (considering the edge would be exactly the size that fits the pattern of the broken ribs)

That ‘s a reasonable question to ask.  What difference would the cross sectional area of impact make to the required force and energy.  It would certainly increase the applied pressure at the point of impact. But it would also increase the likelihood of soft tissue damage in the same area. I probably need to think more on that one.    Don’t have much time at the moment.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 08:52:55 AM
Ok here are further thoughts on this:

Decreasing the cross sectional area of any blunt instrument for any fixed amount of force increases the pressure and shear forces around the point of impact.  As the area is reduced the pressure and shear force increase asymptotically - as the edge of the blunt instrument moves from being a club to a knife edge.  At a certain point the shear force should become high enough to cause shearing/cutting of bone and eventually tissue .  It would be possible to cause the rib fractures with less overall force but - for example - if an thin iron bar were used, but in these circumstances you should also see more significant tissue damage too.  I think that Lyuda would have such tissue damage if a thinner heavy object had been used.  So again it’s more likely that the injuries were a result of heavier powerful blows .  The flail chest injury I think is stronger evidence that the blows were caused by a fast moving blunt object.  Especially since both Lyuda and Semyon both have these type of injuries.  Such injuries are usually the result of blunt force trauma .

This then takes me back to the original point that humans are not capable of delivering these injuries - even with a blunt instrument.

On the other hand, the average weight of a Silver back Gorilla is about 170kg with a typical range between 150 to 200kg.  Using its weight and power such an animal could inflict these injuries and the pattern of the injuries are consistent with a Gorilla standing over its victim raining blows down them. 

I find this kind of weird myself but the more I dig into it the more the evidence seems to point in this direction.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 16, 2019, 09:32:10 AM

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

If you and I were attacked by determined killers - for example highly trained Special Forces Operators - and forced out from our tent at gunpoint, we would certainly be in a hurry too.

By the way, those who point out that the crushing of rib cages can be caused by hard blows by other humans are entirely correct. I have briefly trained jiu jitsu, and therefore have learned that trained close combat specialists can easily break rib cages with elbow strikes. Such injuries may cause massive internal bleeding and death. This is what I suppose happened to Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

There are those who cannot bring themselves to believe that the Dyatlov group members were murdered by a well-planned and intelligently executed operation designed to look like an "accicent." That is a pity, and it is also strange since it is clear that these nine were bright people who could conceivably be considered a threat to state security if they observed something they were not supposed to witness - and ever told others what they had seen. It is not unreasonable to suggest that some officials in Moscow gave the order to eliminate a possible future security risk, and that a helicopter was landed near Kholat Syakhl with a group of professional extecutors of "wet affairs." It is also possible, albeit much less likely, that some local Mansi people for some reason were incensed by the presence of the hikers in their area. Realistically, these are the two only possibilities.

The head injury of Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle that hit the side of his head is certainly not caused by any fall or any non-existent avalanche. It seems to me to be from a rifle butt, with the force of the impact being dampened by his headgear and possibly delivered by several blows in succession:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png

The same can be said of the injury that was found on Rustem Slobodin. He seems to have had less protection on his head, causing the impact from the blow to be more pointed:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png

Not a fall injury, not the kind of damage would expect from avalanches - besides there were no avalanches in the area.

Aleksander Kolevatov had:

"open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm"
"deformed neck"

Which were not exactly the typical signs of falls or avalanches either.

We should all realize that irrespective of the identity of the killers and what their motives may have been, every piece of evidence available points to and is only consistent with the conclusion that the Dyatlov group members were in fact attacked and killed, and most importantly their attackers were human.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 16, 2019, 02:30:23 PM

On the slope they drop the flashlight.  If it was important enough to take why wasn't it important enough to pick up?  Haste? Panic?

At the cedar is there evidence of haste.  The clothes removed from the two Yuris for instance.  Cut from their bodies, socks scattered around the camp fire, clothes left between the ravine and the cedar.  If they were in a hurry why?  Gloves in pockets, unused socks, coats not fully buttoned up.  I'd the cold was a threat, then maybe it wasn't the only threat?  Maybe there was something else just as dangerous as the cold?

If you and I were attacked by determined killers - for example highly trained Special Forces Operators - and forced out from our tent at gunpoint, we would certainly be in a hurry too.

By the way, those who point out that the crushing of rib cages can be caused by hard blows by other humans are entirely correct. I have briefly trained jiu jitsu, and therefore have learned that trained close combat specialists can easily break rib cages with elbow strikes. Such injuries may cause massive internal bleeding and death. This is what I suppose happened to Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

There are those who cannot bring themselves to believe that the Dyatlov group members were murdered by a well-planned and intelligently executed operation designed to look like an "accicent." That is a pity, and it is also strange since it is clear that these nine were bright people who could conceivably be considered a threat to state security if they observed something they were not supposed to witness - and ever told others what they had seen. It is not unreasonable to suggest that some officials in Moscow gave the order to eliminate a possible future security risk, and that a helicopter was landed near Kholat Syakhl with a group of professional extecutors of "wet affairs." It is also possible, albeit much less likely, that some local Mansi people for some reason were incensed by the presence of the hikers in their area. Realistically, these are the two only possibilities.

The head injury of Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle that hit the side of his head is certainly not caused by any fall or any non-existent avalanche. It seems to me to be from a rifle butt, with the force of the impact being dampened by his headgear and possibly delivered by several blows in succession:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png

The same can be said of the injury that was found on Rustem Slobodin. He seems to have had less protection on his head, causing the impact from the blow to be more pointed:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png

Not a fall injury, not the kind of damage would expect from avalanches - besides there were no avalanches in the area.

Aleksander Kolevatov had:

"open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm"
"deformed neck"

Which were not exactly the typical signs of falls or avalanches either.

We should all realize that irrespective of the identity of the killers and what their motives may have been, every piece of evidence available points to and is only consistent with the conclusion that the Dyatlov group members were in fact attacked and killed, and most importantly their attackers were human.

What do you think it is they might have seen on the top of that mountain in the middle of nowhere, at night ithat would have made them such a risk to national security that their murders were ordered that night and if they had seen something so important why would they leave Semyon with a camera?  Why would they leave the other cameras in the tent?

After their brutal attack the hikers would not have died immediately.  Thibo may have been unconscious but alive for several hours.  Lyuda may have lived for up to 20 minutes.  Semyon may have lived for several hours.  Kolevatov appears to have lived the longest.  Do you think the attackers would stick around and wait until they had all died?  Do you think they would have watched while Lyudas fur jacket and hat were put onto Semyon?

Why not just make them all disappear, including the tent and all their gear?  That would leave zero evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance?  It's much cleaner and easier and far more logical.

Another possibility is if they had seen something why not make them sign non disclosure documents, in the ame way the pathologists were required to sign non disclosure documents?

One other question Lyuda left set of ribs have 6 fractures all in a single line.  How was this pattern of fractures created so linearly?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 16, 2019, 04:55:25 PM
Before continuing the "no human is capable to deliver such forces" narrative, please try to read the following document, especially the discussion section.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297700506_Measuring_the_force_of_punches_and_kicks_among_combat_sport_athletes_using_a_modified_punching_bag_with_an_embedded_accelerometer
I will copy part of it below:

The impact
forces of delivered kicks were reported at a broad
range of 382 N to 9015 N and depended on the meas-
uring methods adopted and the type of punches and
kicks performed [4], [5], [10]–[12], [16], [17]. In box-
ers, the recorded punching forces ranged from 1990 N
to 4741 N [16], [17].
 
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 17, 2019, 12:00:11 AM
Before continuing the "no human is capable to deliver such forces" narrative, please try to read the following document, especially the discussion section.https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297700506_Measuring_the_force_of_punches_and_kicks_among_combat_sport_athletes_using_a_modified_punching_bag_with_an_embedded_accelerometer
I will copy part of it below:

The impact
forces of delivered kicks were reported at a broad
range of 382 N to 9015 N and depended on the meas-
uring methods adopted and the type of punches and
kicks performed [4], [5], [10]–[12], [16], [17]. In box-
ers, the recorded punching forces ranged from 1990 N
to 4741 N [16], [17].

There is nothing really new in there Gypsy.  The upper range forces you have quoted are at the top end of what is possible by professionally trained heavy weight boxers and athletes and these are below the margin of the forces required to cause those injuries.  My estimation of the force required to cause Lyuda’s chest injuries is about 16000N - roughly 270kg per rib.  Expert knowledge of the forces required for such injuries would help.  My estimate is based on the forces required to break 6 ribs simultaneously which is what the injuries appear to be.  It also appears that the force required to cause the injury to Lyuda ‘s left and right ribs is about the same.  And for Semyon.

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 17, 2019, 05:57:36 PM
Isn't the whole incident at the top of range of what is possible in real world? On the balance of probability, I pretty much lean towards close combat trained people as opposed to humanoid apes. There is absolutely nothing weird about the existence of elite soldiers. The problematic part is their presence at given time and place.. And ofcourse them being responsible for the death of 9 people. No need to bring apes, yetis or any other entities with questionable existence to realistic explanation in my opinion.

Arguments in favour of the trained soldiers, not apes :

humans can erase the the traces

more consistent with the government response and cover-up

different "technical" COD, the animals are more likely to use the same technique, usually leave bites or scratches

would explain the "fire orbs", in other words there could have been something that triggered the engagement of Soviet "specnaz", e.g. something appeared on the radar or the military intercepted unsolicited communication in the vicinity of Kholat Syakhil

Arguments in favour of the apes /yetis, not soldiers /close combat trained individuals :

... Don't know but feel free to add them, I want to keep this discussion open-minded.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 17, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
Isn't the whole incident at the top of range of what is possible in real world? On the balance of probability, I pretty much lean towards close combat trained people as opposed to humanoid apes. There is absolutely nothing weird about the existence of elite soldiers. The problematic part is their presence at given time and place.. And ofcourse them being responsible for the death of 9 people. No need to bring apes, yetis or any other entities with questionable existence to realistic explanation in my opinion.

Arguments in favour of the trained soldiers, not apes :

humans can erase the the traces

more consistent with the government response and cover-up

different "technical" COD, the animals are more likely to use the same technique, usually leave bites or scratches

would explain the "fire orbs", in other words there could have been something that triggered the engagement of Soviet "specnaz", e.g. something appeared on the radar or the military intercepted unsolicited communication in the vicinity of Kholat Syakhil

Arguments in favour of the apes /yetis, not soldiers /close combat trained individuals :

... Don't know but feel free to add them, I want to keep this discussion open-minded.

The problem with the military human attack is that apart from the injuries Being akin to massive blunt force trauma.  The whole pattern of events does not logically fit together.  Nothing was taken from them.  The cameras in particular could have had evidence on it.  There is no motive for the attack.  It would have been much cleaner and more logical to just make them all disappear including the tent and their gear.  Leave no evidence and just one big mystery about their disappearance.  Even the attack on the rav four is inconsistent with specialists taking them out.  Semyon and Kolevatov could have lived for several hours after sustained those injuries.  Why would they not just finish them off with a few extra blows to the ribs or head?  I doubt they would want to stick around for several hours in the freezing cold just to watch them slowly die.  None of it makes sense.  It’s not just the injuries.

I have already described the evidence that supports an ape like attack.  Apes were used to test the effects of military weapons.  Maybe it was some apes that had been released from an exotic pet owner or a circus or zoo, but that probably would not justify burying the bodies in zinc coffins.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Semyon's last pictures...
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
The two pictures of lights, one not so clear and another of a blast of light are questionable as to what they could be. The one of the blast you can see 3 head shapes at the bottom so it appears it was taken with people standing in front of Semyon as he took the picture. The one picture that Semyon took with the blurry lights could have been from his camera as he was in the ravine, left to die and it may be a picture of someone walking up the hill with a lantern or flashlight that did not capture anything but the lantern moving. He may have thought taking the picture would give the world the information needed to figure out how they died. He may have had the camera around his neck hidden and as the attackers were walking away back up the hill, he snapped it hoping it would show more than it did.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 18, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
Semyon may well have taken some photographs that presented the cause of their demise.  But I don't think there is any useful information that could be extracted from them as they very damaged.  Also there is speculation that 9 of the negatives went missing.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 18, 2019, 03:13:31 PM
I want to present some further thoughts on the tent and the cuts that were made from the inside.  There were only three cuts that appeared to have been made from inside the tent.  Two of them were very small and one was about 86cm.  From what I can tell (happy to be corrected on this) the cuts appear to be near the entrance of the tent on The down side of the slope.  There were also reports of tears and holes in the tent with one of Dyatlov's jackets stuffed into the hole.

My first question is if the hikers were trying to make an exit to escape the tent why make three cuts, and why stuff a jacket into an already existing hole or tear?  Clearly they could not have made those cuts in order to try to escape the tent?  The only cut that was big enough to escape through would have been the 86cm cut.  Also the cuts were very close to the entrance which was still standing albeit covered in a new build up of snow when the tent was found.  So it would more likely be easier to leave through the entrance than cut a hole in the tent given the proximity of the cuts to the entrance.

My second question is if the cuts were not made as a means to try and escape from the tent why were they made at all?  I can't remember who stated this on the forum, but they said that if there were wolves or a wild animal outside the tent the last thing you would do is go outside and leave the tent.  So maybe this could be close to what did actually happen.  In this scenario, the cuts were not made to escape the tent, they were made to defend the tent and the hikers inside, from whatever it was that was outside?  The hikers tried to slash at whatever it was through the tent.  Said thing may have been pushing on the tent or attacking them from outside.  If the attacker damaged part of the tent then it would make sense to try and cover the hole by pushing a jacket into it.  Now it may be that all this happened very quickly and with little warning creating a panic within the tent.  As the tent became more damaged and torn during the attack, the hikers had no choice but to flee, taking only those things they already had in their hands and on the clothing they were wearing in the tent.  It's possible that some had time to grab a few extra items of clothing.  The jacket and sneakers found about 10 metres from the tent may have been dropped during a frantic escape from the camp site?

Could the attackers have been human?  Unlikely, as staying in the tent would not be an effective strategy against intelligent humans who would be familiar with tents.  Stuffing a jacket into a hole would also be an unlikely deterrent for humans.  But it would be a likely set of events if the attacker were an animal of some kind.  Like an ape type creature?

One possibility is that humans attacked them and destroyed the tent after forcing the hikers out.  If this were true why would the human attacker stuff Dyatlovs jacket in one of the holes they had made!

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 05:35:01 PM
Dear Starman: What I gathered from reading Mihail Shavarin's latest testimony 2007 was that the tent was cut open with an ice ax by him and another searcher when they found the tent to see if there was anyone in there. The two big cuts were made by them looking for a person, or body. So that leaves the 3 small cuts made from the inside. The only purpose for these cuts would be to see what is outside the tent either by noise, voice or light. whatever it was they did not hesitate and left the tent either as directed or scared beyond their limits. For me, I am weak on the Yeti theory but do not count it out.

With Semyon's fake cap tooth, it makes me think he was some sort of a spy either for Russia or against Russia and they wanted him taken out. Perhaps the middle of the Urals was the place to do that. Dentists don't put a fake cap on a root as a normal practice. If he were a spy, that might have been a poison capsule he carried in his mouth and so as to not accidentally bite it, it was hidden under the fake tooth. He may have used it as he was dying for all we know. The only way to know for sure would to be to exhume  the body again and check the area of the mouth for traces of poison. As I have stated, the Nazi's used this tactic and one used it in prison for his own demise. There is still speculation as to whether he was related to the one person in his family tree, and apparently the results were either negative or inconclusive.

Best regards...

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 18, 2019, 05:51:26 PM
I am going to throw this out there too: The picture with the 3 heads in the front, that means Semyon was standing behind these 3 individuals perhaps trying to hide in the group and he snapped the picture thinking he might capture the attackers forms but as he took the picture, someone flashed a light at him. Just another thought about the pictures.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 19, 2019, 02:33:25 PM
Dear Starman: What I gathered from reading Mihail Shavarin's latest testimony 2007 was that the tent was cut open with an ice ax by him and another searcher when they found the tent to see if there was anyone in there. The two big cuts were made by them looking for a person, or body. So that leaves the 3 small cuts made from the inside. The only purpose for these cuts would be to see what is outside the tent either by noise, voice or light. whatever it was they did not hesitate and left the tent either as directed or scared beyond their limits. For me, I am weak on the Yeti theory but do not count it out.

With Semyon's fake cap tooth, it makes me think he was some sort of a spy either for Russia or against Russia and they wanted him taken out. Perhaps the middle of the Urals was the place to do that. Dentists don't put a fake cap on a root as a normal practice. If he were a spy, that might have been a poison capsule he carried in his mouth and so as to not accidentally bite it, it was hidden under the fake tooth. He may have used it as he was dying for all we know. The only way to know for sure would to be to exhume  the body again and check the area of the mouth for traces of poison. As I have stated, the Nazi's used this tactic and one used it in prison for his own demise. There is still speculation as to whether he was related to the one person in his family tree, and apparently the results were either negative or inconclusive.

Best regards...

There is a high probability that the tent was subject to additional damage during its recovery, but the three cuts from the inside and the hole with the jacket in were unlikely to be made by the search and rescue team.  So on that basis the questions I asked and the proposed explanation still stand.

I'm not as familiar with Semyon's hollow crown, or why he had it or what it's intended use was for.  It's interesting though.  Whatever it was for I doubt that he used it that night to end his life.  He tried to survive.  I suppose if it was a cyanide cap then he could have used it in the final moments to try and end the pain.  If someone wanted Semyon dead though I very much doubt that they would wait until he was in one of the most inhospitable and difficult to get to areas.  It would be much easier to arrange for his demise closer to civilisation.

 Think about it. 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 19, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
I am going to throw this out there too: The picture with the 3 heads in the front, that means Semyon was standing behind these 3 individuals perhaps trying to hide in the group and he snapped the picture thinking he might capture the attackers forms but as he took the picture, someone flashed a light at him. Just another thought about the pictures.

If I remember right, Loose Cannon presented another photo that showed that the three heads photo is actually a very small section of one Semyon's pics that had been blown up rather than a pic of three heads.  it's been manipulated.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 25, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
Some more thoughts on the tent and why human involvement is unlikely.

The scene in the tent when it was found was very orderly.  It appears that nothing was taken from the tent.  Apart from the shoes to the left of the entrance, which are described as uncharacteristically untidy, the rest of the contents appears orderly.  If human attackers had been there, what are the chances that they would leave everything in the tent as it was when the hikers left?  Even if they had searched the tent and took nothing, the scene in the tent would be more chaotic.  It appears that no person or animal had entered the tent?  If humans had been there I really don't think that they would not have at least searched the tent.  Of course it is possible that the tent was searched and the searchers tidied up after themselves?  But it's very very unlikely. - because they didn't tidy the boots up.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: gypsy on October 25, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
I think the whole "tent scene" is just inconclusive. If there was another person (or more), they could have taken something without turning the place upside down...we just don't know as the whole operation was not according to basic forensic or investigation standards. The search party was scrambled kind of hastily so it is understandable that there was no strict procedure how to handle the evidence. We probably don't even have a full inventory list - I would wonder what "tins and wires" mentioned in radioigrams or "Kolevatov's device" from Zina's diary was. Not to mention toxicology report that is omitted from the known case files completely.

I previously asked about what speakt in favour of "ape" attack as opposed to human involvement. Maybe I should rephrase the question. My general understanding is that humans have more capabilities and more variability in combat. Animals have rather consistent pattern of behaviour when facing danger. So the question stands: Is there anything that an ape would be capable of, but human atacker wouldn't? Then  there is a question of traces...I doubt that ape(s) wandering around would not gain attention sooner or later, people can just fly away with a helicopter. In the end if we exclude presence of both other humans or animals, that leaves us with a version that involves violence among the members of Dyatlov group. However, there people did not seem to be capable of such a strong violence...unless somebody went psycho a smashed Tibo's skull with a 60lb piese of ice a threw it into the ravine... because I do not see a 'murder weapon' accounted for either.

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 25, 2019, 09:43:53 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 26, 2019, 05:01:31 PM
I think the whole "tent scene" is just inconclusive. If there was another person (or more), they could have taken something without turning the place upside down...we just don't know as the whole operation was not according to basic forensic or investigation standards. The search party was scrambled kind of hastily so it is understandable that there was no strict procedure how to handle the evidence. We probably don't even have a full inventory list - I would wonder what "tins and wires" mentioned in radioigrams or "Kolevatov's device" from Zina's diary was. Not to mention toxicology report that is omitted from the known case files completely.

I previously asked about what speakt in favour of "ape" attack as opposed to human involvement. Maybe I should rephrase the question. My general understanding is that humans have more capabilities and more variability in combat. Animals have rather consistent pattern of behaviour when facing danger. So the question stands: Is there anything that an ape would be capable of, but human atacker wouldn't? Then  there is a question of traces...I doubt that ape(s) wandering around would not gain attention sooner or later, people can just fly away with a helicopter. In the end if we exclude presence of both other humans or animals, that leaves us with a version that involves violence among the members of Dyatlov group. However, there people did not seem to be capable of such a strong violence...unless somebody went psycho a smashed Tibo's skull with a 60lb piese of ice a threw it into the ravine... because I do not see a 'murder weapon' accounted for either.

You're right.  The whole tent scene is a bit messed up in terms of preserving evidence.  However, there are many key things that I think can be taken as useful evidence, including some of the witness statements.  In particular the following:

1. The three cuts made from the inside of the tent
2. The description of the layout of items in the tent
3. The listed inventory of the tent
4. The jacket and sneakers found several metres from the tent
5. Dyatlov's jacket stuffed in a hole in the side of tent.

even things that may seem simple and uninteresting are IMO of potentially key importance.  For instance the cuts made from inside the tent.  It has often been said/implied and a mental image created within the case files info that the Dyatlov group were so terrified that cut their way out of the tent to escape.  But when you consider the cuts in detail it is unlikely that this was ghe reason for the cuts.  Firstly, two of the cuts are quite small and not big enough to escape the tent.  The largest cut is 89cm which is probably big enough to escape through.  But if you were cutting a hole to escape then once your knife had penetrated the fabric of the tent you would not withdraw it after only 33cm and start a new hole.  You would continue to cut the fabric until the hole was big enough to escape through.  Also these cuts were near the entrance which was still standing  and probably not covered in snow at the time.  It would be far easier to escape through the entrance.  One other thing, if you were trying to escape to the tent by cutting a hole in it, then you would not try to block up another hole with your jacket.  That leaves me wondering then why they were cutting the tent from the inside?  The only thing that I can think of is that they were trying to defend the tent and themselves from something outside, by thrusting the knife at something through the tent.  Using a knife to lash out at a trained team of armed military officers is unlikely to be an effective strategy against them.  So if there were military outside, I doubt that they would have even engaged in such a form of defence.  However, such a defence might be something that you would try if there was some kind of animal/beast outside.  Another possibility is that something drove them to behave irrationally.  Drugs, food poisoning, altitude sickness etc.  when you then consider the fact that nothing was taken from the tent that we know of, the tent contents were left in a relatively orderly way, the cameras were left in the tent, diaries were left in the tent,  whilst the hikers left with a camera (subsequently not removed either), matches, at least one knife, a flashlight then it presents a picture that is very unlikely to have involved other human beings.

On the subject of ape or ape like creature, such an animal would be capable of inflicting all of the injuries with sufficient force to cause the straight line fractures and flail chest injuries.  Thibo's depressed fracture is actually the same shape as a ball of a thumb that belonged to hand 30cm long.  This is about the size of an ape hand and the lengthnof the bruise of Zina's side.  An ape could generate sufficient force to crush Thibo's skull as we see in the autopsy report.  It's interesting that you say that an ape or animal is more likely to apply a consistent technique in its attack, because there is a consistent pattern to the attacks.  Two flail chest injuries and two fractured skull injuries.  The injuries are consistent with being knocked to the ground and hit with powerful blows.  It's clear that the chest injuries were received while Lyuda and Semyon were on the ground.  This is based on the angle that such a blow would have to come from.  It is possible that all of the injuries came from falls, but the lack of associated injuries to limbs and other body parts is very unlikely.  It's also unlikely that all three would have fallen simultaneously and received very similar injuries each of similar force.

Could a human inflict these injuries?  IMO its very unlikely.  More interestingly, why would they do it that way and not just shoot or stab them?  It could not have been to avoid suspicion, because there is nothing more suspicious than the injuries of the rav 4.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on October 26, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan

Hi Jarrfan,

Have a look at the previous post I have made above.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Spygirl 1 on October 26, 2019, 05:16:52 PM
I would refer you to the Mihail Sharavin testimony that claims when they found the tent on the  first search, he and another searcher took the ice ax and made a hole in the tent to see if anyone was in there, i.e., one of the hikers possibly alive or deceased. They said the tent contents were catalogued and made note of. So I don't believe anyone or anything entered the tent after the hikers died or were driven from the tent. I believe they were separated by the government military and questioned, beaten each group as they were separated. The attackers huddled together figuring out the statements from the hikers, the  first 5 that were found. As the ravine 4 were building the den, they realized their comrades were murdered and one of them snuck up the cedar and removed clothing still not certain they would be killed, hoping they might be able to survive because they knew they were innocent but the attackers decided they all needed to die and beat and shoved the last 4 into the ravine and that is how their injuries were so much worse.

That is the only explanation I can come up with at this time. It could have been a Yeti but unless it tracked all 3 groups down separately I don't know how that would be possible, but it is still feasible.

Regards, Jarrfan
11
Hi Jarrfan,

Have a look at the previous post I have made above.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on October 27, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
Thanks Starman, I will take a look again.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 06, 2019, 03:55:02 PM
The link below is to a paper produced by the Sasquatch Genome Project.  I don't think that it has been widely accepted by the scientific community yet.  But it is certainly interesting.  What I found particularly interesting is that not only does it hypothesise the existence of Sasquatch, the DNA sequencing and analysis provides a possible explanation for the origin of the species (if it can be called a species as such).  The results suggest that of the many samples collected and tested they all contained consistent "human" mitochondrial DNA, while the nuclear DNA contained both human sequences and novel sequences and sequences consistent with primate DNA.

Mitochondrial DNA is only passed down from the female, while the nuclear DNA is a mixture of both male parent and female parent DNA? 

What the paper and DNA results suggest is that the samples tested are very likely to be hybrids.  This means that at some time during human history a female human has mated with a primate and had viable offspring.  Interestingly all the mitochondrial DNA is human, suggesting that the original hybrid did not go on to breed with further primates, but likely did mate with further human females. Weird.  Such a hybrid species could have come into existence in relatively recent history.  It means that if the report is genuine and eventually accepted that Sasquatch is a species that has not evolved along the normal tree of life but just appeared suddenly.

This could be evidence of the existence of big foot, or Yeti etc which may have relevance to the dpi and the theories and ideas presented in this thread.  Some interesting light reading anyway.

Regards

Star man

http://sasquatchgenomeproject.org/linked/novel-north-american-hominins-final-pdf-download.pdf
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 06, 2019, 09:14:04 PM
I don't negate the Yeti or UFO's at this point. The Yeti has been folklore in some areas but there are documented cases in the 1700's and 1800's in the US when it was first being settled. The cases seem the same as the ones that emerge today. An out of way camera placed in a ravine caught a picture of a feline that was allegedly determined to be extinct for hundreds of years.

The possibility of a primate/human breeding does not appear possible to my knowledge. Now, as far as the Neanderthal and the Denisovans is more feasible. There is a small amount of proof of the Denisovan but enough DNA to relate it to Neanderthal.

As far as Neanderthal and human breeding, apparently they did. But the male had to be a modern human and the female had to be a Neanderthal because a human female could not carry a Neanderthal child because of the size of the head and bones. Neanderthal bones were extremely thick and heavy which gave them much strength.

Jarrfan



Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 06, 2019, 11:46:31 PM
Hi Jarrfan.  The Big Foot Genome report above is supposed to have analysed a sample from a Sasquatch that they captured on video.  They sequenced the gene for hair colour and found it was human red hair gene.  The animal they recorded had red hair.

I can’t comment on the authenticity of the work or exactly on the origins of the species if the work is authentic.  But the report is there in black and white along with the supplemtary information and they claim to have 3 terabytes of recorded complete genome sequences.  3 complete separate genomes.  They will also have the original samples.  That should be enough data to independently evaluate and peer review the work they have done.  They say that there is such a massive stigma around the suspect that nobody wants to touch it.  They themselves are calling it the Galileo effect. 

So it sounds like there is an opportunity there to either prove the work or the conclusion incorrect - or to make scientific history.

I think Darwin had similar problems when he first proposed that humans had evolved from apes.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 08, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Spygirl 1 on November 09, 2019, 09:02:40 AM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man

THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!

I REPEAT:
THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!
(I'll post that later as its kinda lengthy).

Simply just adding to the conversation about Yeti/Menk theory.

So.......

Many US Native American tribes have always been gender neutral or matriarchal. Many tribes also pass their tribal positions from one generation to the next.

This was the case with my Native American friend Rebecca. She was a Medicine Woman of the Kiowa Tribe. Her lineage had been so for many generations.

The US government is rather lenient in allowing certain otherwise illegal items for continued use in Native American practices.

Rebecca is rather elderly. She asked if I would drive her 3-4 hours away.  She had a particular cedar box made to refurbish a bald eagle wing. The wing itself has been passed down for many years used in Kiowa medicinal healing.

She also told me it would be an overnight stay.

I was happy to help out so I drove her......but she failed to tell me we were picking up the box at a BIGFOOT CONVENTION!!!! I swear I had no idea!

The convention was quite an experience.

There were many self- proclaimed scientists/researchers/fanatics. Guessing there was approximately 200 people there when we arrived.

These folks used the terms Sasquatch/Bigfoot interchangeably as I will do here.

Although I was skeptical as any one else I did listen but all was taken with a grain of salt.

Over & over I heard the same thing from this gathering of Sasquatch enthusiasts (their collective thoughts, not mine):

According to them no Sasquatch has ever been caught because they have ability to "sizzle" humans.

They explained that like other animals who have defensive measures ( a skunk who sprays or a rattlesnake rattles) Bigfoot sizzles.

What is a sizzle? If Sasquatch feels threatened or space being invaded they have ability to stare down a predator (human)  Their "telekinesis" sends some sort of energy to humans.

The way it was explained made me think of Superman shooting beams from his eyes to use his x-ray vision.

So with this sizzle energy the human(s) suddenly becomes terrified - hair standing up on back of the neck,  horribly nauseous, the worst migraine ever, etc. It is sheer panic & horror.

The sudden & severe onset of symptoms makes humans flee for safety & away from them.

According to these folks the more of a bad-a$$ some Bigfoot hunter thinks they are the worse they get sizzled!

It also seemed to be a collective mindset that Bigfoot does get curious about humans & want to investigate in the majority of encounters.  That's it-- they are just simply curious.

In  other encounters with humans where there is a raging, screaming Bigfoot is because they feel threatened or they are very ill &/or in pain.

Also of this group's collective belief (don't ask me how they would know)  is Sasquatch
live in family units.

With the DPI anything is possible. Because there is 3 distinctive areas it would seem more than 1 Yeti/Menk would have to be involved.

IMO if Yeti's were involved there would be a a number of scenarios with these 3 components:
1) DPI 9
2) Yeti(s)
3) Miltary "something"

I certainly do NOT believe these hikers were sleeping quietly in the tent & some Yeti(s) became maniacal monsters.

Again-- just food for thought

Happy Trails-
Spygirl 1
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 09, 2019, 03:36:50 PM
Is this a potential scenario for the dpi?

One or more Sasquatch/yeti whatever you want to call them approach the tent out of curiosity and maybe to assess if the hikers are a threat.  They keep their distance.  One of the hikers (Semyon/Thibo),  go outside to relieve themselves and spot them in the beam of their flashlight.  They go back into the tent and warn the others.  Maybe they even make fun of him and enter a comment in The Evening Otorten.  The Yeti come closer to the tent and maybe start throwing snow at them in an attempt to persuade them to move away from their territory.  The hikers panic thinking that lives are at risk and leave the tent heading down the slope.  The yeti follow them keeping their distance and keeping an eye on them as they may be a threat to their family. 

At some point the hikers attack them or throw things at them triggering a protective and defensive response which results in the injuries of the rav 4.  Dyatlov Rustem and Zina head back to the tent but never make it.

Regards

Star man

THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!

I REPEAT:
THIS IS NOT THE SASQUATCH DEFINITIVE PROOF I'M REFERRING TO IN PREVIOUS POST!!!
(I'll post that later as its kinda lengthy).

Simply just adding to the conversation about Yeti/Menk theory.

So.......

Many US Native American tribes have always been gender neutral or matriarchal. Many tribes also pass their tribal positions from one generation to the next.

This was the case with my Native American friend Rebecca. She was a Medicine Woman of the Kiowa Tribe. Her lineage had been so for many generations.

The US government is rather lenient in allowing certain otherwise illegal items for continued use in Native American practices.

Rebecca is rather elderly. She asked if I would drive her 3-4 hours away.  She had a particular cedar box made to refurbish a bald eagle wing. The wing itself has been passed down for many years used in Kiowa medicinal healing.

She also told me it would be an overnight stay.

I was happy to help out so I drove her......but she failed to tell me we were picking up the box at a BIGFOOT CONVENTION!!!! I swear I had no idea!

The convention was quite an experience.

There were many self- proclaimed scientists/researchers/fanatics. Guessing there was approximately 200 people there when we arrived.

These folks used the terms Sasquatch/Bigfoot interchangeably as I will do here.

Although I was skeptical as any one else I did listen but all was taken with a grain of salt.

Over & over I heard the same thing from this gathering of Sasquatch enthusiasts (their collective thoughts, not mine):

According to them no Sasquatch has ever been caught because they have ability to "sizzle" humans.

They explained that like other animals who have defensive measures ( a skunk who sprays or a rattlesnake rattles) Bigfoot sizzles.

What is a sizzle? If Sasquatch feels threatened or space being invaded they have ability to stare down a predator (human)  Their "telekinesis" sends some sort of energy to humans.

The way it was explained made me think of Superman shooting beams from his eyes to use his x-ray vision.

So with this sizzle energy the human(s) suddenly becomes terrified - hair standing up on back of the neck,  horribly nauseous, the worst migraine ever, etc. It is sheer panic & horror.

The sudden & severe onset of symptoms makes humans flee for safety & away from them.

According to these folks the more of a bad-a$$ some Bigfoot hunter thinks they are the worse they get sizzled!

It also seemed to be a collective mindset that Bigfoot does get curious about humans & want to investigate in the majority of encounters.  That's it-- they are just simply curious.

In  other encounters with humans where there is a raging, screaming Bigfoot is because they feel threatened or they are very ill &/or in pain.

Also of this group's collective belief (don't ask me how they would know)  is Sasquatch
live in family units.

With the DPI anything is possible. Because there is 3 distinctive areas it would seem more than 1 Yeti/Menk would have to be involved.

IMO if Yeti's were involved there would be a a number of scenarios with these 3 components:
1) DPI 9
2) Yeti(s)
3) Miltary "something"

I certainly do NOT believe these hikers were sleeping quietly in the tent & some Yeti(s) became maniacal monsters.

Again-- just food for thought

Happy Trails-
Spygirl 1

Thank you for the story about the convention.  Whether or not a Sasquatch has the telepathic ability to sizzle I think if I saw one staring at me while I was in the middle of nowhere it would probably have the same effect as a sizzle anyway.   

Definitive proof would be very useful to support the Yeti hypothesis.  The Sasquatch genome project and the report they have produced is quite convincing and the researchers seem genuine.  They claim to have the data just waiting to be peer reviewed and their manuscript published.

For the dpi if one of the hikers went outside and saw one of these creatures I am sure he would have been very scared and spooked.  I can't help but wonder what the others would have thought when he first warned them?  Would they think he playing a prank and trying to scare them?  If more of them went outside and saw the Yeti  - how would that then play out?  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them?

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 10, 2019, 08:31:06 AM


Thank you for the story about the convention.  Whether or not a Sasquatch has the telepathic ability to sizzle I think if I saw one staring at me while I was in the middle of nowhere it would probably have the same effect as a sizzle anyway.   

Definitive proof would be very useful to support the Yeti hypothesis.  The Sasquatch genome project and the report they have produced is quite convincing and the researchers seem genuine.  They claim to have the data just waiting to be peer reviewed and their manuscript published.

For the dpi if one of the hikers went outside and saw one of these creatures I am sure he would have been very scared and spooked.  I can't help but wonder what the others would have thought when he first warned them?  Would they think he playing a prank and trying to scare them?  If more of them went outside and saw the Yeti  - how would that then play out?  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them?

Regards

Star man
[/quote]

 [[  What would happen if the hikers showed signs of aggression toward the creatures?  Would that trigger an aggressive response from them? ]] I have often pondered that one. I think the answer is YES.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 10, 2019, 02:38:16 PM
When humans are scared it is natural for them to become defensive and sometimes aggressive in response.  That may have been taken as a threat and triggered a reciprocal response.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 11, 2019, 08:47:50 AM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were made through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: sarapuk on November 11, 2019, 12:47:30 PM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were leaders through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man

Well I have never been that convinced about the so called Cuts   !  ?  What if they were made by something slashing at the Tent from the outside  !  ?  After all there are so many ponderables in this Dyatlov Mystery.  Who is to say that the person who examined the Tent wasnt told to say that the cuts came from the inside or perhaps they made a mistake in their examination.
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: Star man on November 11, 2019, 01:33:34 PM
The cuts made in the tent.  Currently there is an interesting discussion going on another thread that suggests that the three cuts were leaders through the seams of the tent and that such action would have taken a slow deliberate sawing motion.  The cuts may have been smaller when made and later elongated by the wind and or recovery of the tent.  If they were smaller then it is unlikely that they were made as a means of escape.  Also, it would be unlikely that they were made to make the tent unusable.  So what were they made for?  The hikers would not have made cuts in the tent lightly as it was their life boat. 

So could the cuts have been made to look outside to check on some kind of threat that they knew was there? 

Regards

Star man

Well I have never been that convinced about the so called Cuts   !  ?  What if they were made by something slashing at the Tent from the outside  !  ?  After all there are so many ponderables in this Dyatlov Mystery.  Who is to say that the person who examined the Tent wasnt told to say that the cuts came from the inside or perhaps they made a mistake in their examination.

Where the cuts are made from the inside there was suppose to be scratch marks made before the sharp implement (presumably a knife) penetrated the fabric.  That's why they attributed three of the holes in the tent to cuts from the inside.  Also it's unlikely that a slashing action could have cut through the seams - based on Jarrfan's posts, and when you think about it it kind of makes sense.  You would need a sawing cutting motion to cut the thicker tougher seams

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
Post by: jarrfan on November 11, 2019, 03:37:12 PM
SaraPuk: The cuts were identified by searchers when they reassembled the tent at the facility where they kept it. There are pictures on the document "autopsy of the tent," that clearly show the cuts through the seams. A woman who was in the building and was a seamstress determined the cuts were made from the inside of the tent. Her theory was examined with a microscopic look at the cut patterns and they determined the seamstress was correct. If you look at the pictures you can see the 3 cuts, one bigger than the other two. The slashes on the tent wall, yes they are there but they may have been there before the incident just accidentally.

It is very odd that any hiker would cut through the seam to make a hole to peek through. As stated before, it would have taken more effort such as a sawing motion to cut through a seam with 2-3 layers thick of canvas. If you started to slash, when you hit the seam, the slashing would stop and you would have to take time to saw through the  seam.

It is also visible on the pictures that the initial cuts were further ripped by the wind.

All of this is a puzzle, even as to why they had to make 3 cuts to see something unless there were 3 of them looking. It is almost as if the hikers were not thinking properly when they did this or in such frame of mind that they did not care if they made the tent unsalvageable.

I have been sewing all of my life, all kinds of fabrics even some canvas and to cut through the seam would make the tent easily rip from the winds, as is witnessed by the cuts being torn.

as far as if they were making the cuts to air out some horrible fume or smoke, that doesn't make any sense either since they had a tent hole that held the stove pipe. It is all a mystery.