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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Physiology and Physics of Death  (Read 3216 times)

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February 24, 2018, 12:45:35 PM
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SteveCalley

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How did this complex tragedy occur and what is physics of this?
  • There is freezing effect over one kilometer.
  • You go a kilometer and half in the cold.
  • What is the physics on all these guys?
  • Was it 660 m. or 2150 m. for one?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 06:48:35 PM by SteveCalley »

February 24, 2018, 02:29:34 PM
Reply #1

SteveCalley

Guest
Persons active in a cold climate, if inadequately dressed, have only a certain distance that they can travel before hypothermia stops them. Then they are rewarmed, or die.
It is easy to miss the significance of the distances in the Dyatlov case. A pitifully underdressed person like Krivoshenko or Doroshenko would be frostbitten and hypothermic after a jaunt of 1500 m, which could easily represent a half hour struggle through a wind chill of -40C.
Jack London wrote a suspenseful short story To Build A Fire about a traveler in Alaska. That is what faced The Two at the cedar.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 10:26:31 AM by SteveCalley »

February 24, 2018, 02:32:38 PM
Reply #2

SteveCalley

Guest
REWARMED not rewarded.

stadhaugh.com offers 20 minutes until frostbite, -10 F ~ -23 C, 15 kph wind.
Even if an under-dressed, terrified hiker covered the distance to the cedar in rapid time, 4.5 kph or 2.8 mph, which is a rather brisk speed in winter hikes - the hiker arrives half-dead with frozen flesh, no time for building a fire, etc. And when the hikers were laden and underway, it took them a frigid hour to move 1500 meters on skis. Could a poorly clad hiker even get so far as the cedar?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 06:57:57 PM by SteveCalley »

February 26, 2018, 08:24:08 AM
Reply #3

SteveCalley

Guest
As an aside on bones, these young folks were all born during the Great Terror, and grew up under the privations of WWII. I wouldn't be surprised if their bones were less sturdy than a well-fed youth. However, I suspect that the lethal action in the den would have broken anyone's bones.

February 28, 2018, 09:14:41 PM
Reply #4

SteveCalley

Guest
The effects of nearby explosions are more complex than distant explosions.
A distant explosion forms a flat impulse plane that races invisibly at supersonic speed across the air. If you are 1000 or 1200 meters from the blast, it makes almost no difference in the nature of its effects.
But an explosion up close, the explosion acts as a point source of energy dispersion.    As a nearby blast rushes by a hollow cylinder like the human chest, it pushes inward at the side of first contact, then racing past squeezes the sides, and finally the back is pushed inward, and the cylinder experiences a nearly symmetrical crushing force. Remember, explosion blast waves are supersonic, >330 mm/ msec. That's passing across the width of the human chest in a millisecond or two. The US equivalent,CompB6, blasts at 7m/msec or so. The front of the chest hasn't even started to move inward from the blast in 1 msec. The Sadovsky formulas are used in blast physics. Ironically, some of the institute graduates who died on Kholat Syakl were likely skilled in this area.
In more detail, the nearby blast also spreads the surface where it first contacts - a "tearing-apart" force. Then, when the following negative pressure wave hits, it gathers together -"pinches in" the surface at the point of initial contact.
What if your head is next to the blast?  Ask poor Tibo, his skull was wrecked right where the pressure first hit it, like a pane of bulletproof glass struck by a rifle round.  The others had their chests torn up. The only compelling force that efficiently explains the data is a nearby explosion.
______
The Mathematics Of Blowing Stuff Up
In order to make numerical assertions, it's worthwhile to use cited work in the literature.  This is not to seem snooty; rather the opposite, it's to be humble enough to show sources.
My first well-connected source is Influence Of Dimensional Proportions Of Cylindrical Explosive On Resulting Blast Wave, Robert Panowicz, Michał Trypolin, Marcin Konarzewsk, Journal of KONES Powertrain and Transport, Vol. 23, No. 4 2016  It mentions what has been known about explosions, that the effects depend only on energy and distance.  It cites Sadovsky, who seems to have written the definitive work on explosions: Sadovsky, M.A., Mechanical effects of air shockwaves from explosions according to experiments, in: Geophysics and Physics of Explosion (ed. M.A. Sadovsky), Nauka Press, Moscow 2004
Panowicz et al. offer a discussion of point-source blasts, or "a nearby explosion," which, I've suggested, was the cause of the wreckage in the den and upon the poor trekkers.
Quote
In the point detonation model approximation, the detonation process is not considered. It is only assumed that, in the initial time, in the small part of the volume, an emanation of energy occurs. The assumptions and conclusions regarding this model are presented in the studies of Taylor, Sedov and von Neumann, who developed it independently. This model was then further developed by, among others, Staniukowicz.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 07:20:04 AM by SteveCalley »

March 04, 2018, 08:10:06 AM
Reply #5

SteveCalley

Guest
Yes, of course - someone has studied this grisly topic already.
A friendly Moscow correspondent on the internet offered a discussion of Sadovsky equations.  Regrettably, he did not reference his discussion. http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15150&page=2#pid197153

The physics of death by explosion.
Our correspondent has offered the attached (unattributed) data:
dP > 26 kg/cm225,497,290 dyn/cm22.5 mPa~24 atmInstant death, full body disintegration.
dP > 8 kg/cm27,845,320 dyn/cm20.7 mPa~7.5 atm.Instant death, body throw back, disintegration of body parts.
dP > 5 kg/cm24,903,325 dyn/cm20.4 mPa~4.5 atmFatal damage, 99% chance of lethal outcome. Disintegration of body parts, massive damage to soft and bone tissue.
dP > 3.8 kg/cm23726527 dyn/cm20.37 mPa~3.6 atmHeavy damage, 75% chance of lethal outcome. In lucky case hospitalization for at least 2-3 months.
dP > 2.5 kg/cm2 Moderate damage, 10% risk of fatality or hospitalization for 1-2 months.
dP > 2.1 kg/cm2 Light injuries, hospitalization for 7-15 days.
dP > 1.6 kg/cm2 Disruption of neural system up to loss of consciousness.
dP > 1.1 kg/cm2 Rupture of tympanic membranes for average human.
dP > 0.5 kg/cm2 Minimal safe distance for artilleryman.

I've expanded dP to discuss some familiar terms.  I think that the blast that killed the bunch in the den was about 5 kg/cm2, or a 4 atmosphere overpressure. (60 PSI for the English system.)

What sort of explosion from, say, 2 meters away, would produce a 4 atmosphere overpressure?  Let's look on the next post for the physics.

March 04, 2018, 08:56:59 AM
Reply #6

SteveCalley

Guest
The people in the den were likely huddled together, and some evil person threw or dropped a serious military explosive device into their midst.  The reports say that the victims' heads were found 30 cm. apart.  Let's assume that the bomb went off a meter or so from each of them.  Perhaps they were in a little huddle 25cm. apart.
What is the Sadovsky equation, given r in meters = 1, and trying to solve for m, the mass of the explosive in TNT equivalents, and the overpressure in atmospheres?






The TNT equivalents would be 17g on solid earth, or 300g. in air, if they were a meter apart.
The TNT equivalents would be 400 mg on solid earth, or 800mg. in air, if they were 30 cm. apart.

Lethal concussion grenades usually hold about 500g of TNT equivalents; nowadays, quite a bit more.
Just for comparison - if they were all 3 meters apart, it would take 4-8 kilograms to ensure a kill.
How is this possible?  Why, it's clear from the equation that there is a huge r3 component.  Up close, it doesn't take much.  Flash-bang grenades have 9 grams of low-intensity explosive - see https://www.combinedsystems.com/_pdf/MSDS/MSDS%207290%20Rev%20C%20Flash-Bang.pdf
I don't have the relative explosivity of perchlorate, but I know it's low.  Could it be the equivalent of 400-800 mg. of TNT, in a 9-gram package?  Sure.
There was no firm intent to murder the persons in the den.  It was incredibly careless to use any explosive in the den, where people could be grievously injured.  They were.
But WHY?  What were the searchers after? and how can I be so certain?




March 04, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
Reply #7

SteveCalley

Guest
It is true.  It is gruesome, but I am certain it is true.

Roughly, a girl's thorax - a grown woman like Lyuda - has 5 litres of air in the lungs at normal pressure. Because the chest is full of air, it has the potential for being badly injured in explosions.

Now, a little rubber helium balloon floating even 10 meters from a tremendous explosion is not bothered, as long as no shrapnel rips it apart.  The balloon is far enough away that its entire surface is squeezed in a bit, and it rebounds along with the passing blast wave.  Such things as explosion pressure waves can pass right through the balloon, or squeeze it in from all sides - no real difference, as there is no shearing force.  The balloon serenely floats along.

A thorax, like all air-containing cavities in the body, is at greater risk for damage than are the solid organs.  It's well-known in blast trauma medicine - look it up.  A blast such as I am proposing in the snow den, well, it places 0.4 mPa worth of pressure all over the chest surface.  If the blast is distant, the chest and lungs and such are a bit more like the balloon, as the pressure comes across in a wave, and all the thorax is quickly pressed upon with similar force.  But if the explosion took place up close, it's a different problem entirely.

The concentration of available energy of an explosion drops off with the distance squared.  So a blast below the waistline will place more pressure on the diaphragm, and less on the upper chest.  The point is, there is a pressure gradient across the chest.

Now, look at the three in the den who suffered chest fractures; not poor Nikolai. The injuries were worst at the part of the chest nearest the blast.  The blast must have been relatively close to them all, less than a few meters. Lyudmila was perhaps the closest - see all the damage to her heart, which the others did not show.  A few others had hemopericardium - bleeding into the area around the heart.  But she had major cardiac muscle damage from the unholy thump of the grenade.

The tongue.
The tongue is a nimble little device that modulates the throat and airways in a marvelous way - for eating, talking, et cetera.  It lies as a partial blockage of the throat, and it is about 3 cm2 in cross-sectional area.  As the pressure in the lungs flows out, it increases; and we talk or sing with the air that moves past the vocal cords into the oral cavity.

If a crushing force is experienced by the chest, say a 4 atmosphere crush, the tongue will suddenly fall victim to a high pressure coming up through the thorax.  Perhaps 3-4 atmospheres worth of pressure on the tongue.  Whether or not it chances to be occluding the airway or not, there will be a tremendous upward pressure on the base of the tongue, more than it has ever experienced, perhaps 8-10 million dynes of force.  That's about 800-1000 newtons of force, all at once, on a nimble but lightly-attached organ in the throat. 

A one-kilogram tongue should experience perhaps 100G of directed force upwards.  (A G is the gravitational acceleration of earth.)  If detached, it would accelerate upwards at perhaps 1000m/sec2  After it travels 30 cm., it would be going at perhaps 10 meter/sec, making a noise (ugh) like a champagne cork, thankfully muted by the uproar of the explosion. And Lyudmila would be dead before the tongue left her mouth, given all the damage to her heart and thorax.

Where was her tongue?  Likely, embedded in the snow inside the den, or hurled away a few dozen meters if she were outside.  Then, the little forest animals could make a prize of it.

What other explanation is there?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 10:02:52 PM by SteveCalley »

March 04, 2018, 10:05:45 PM
Reply #8

SteveCalley

Guest
Why were the den bodies found just outside of the den?
the same "champagne event" that loosed Lyuda's tongue popped them out the doorway to the den a meter or so.
And why were the corpses unusually gruesome?  Tongue or no, 60 PSI or 0.4 mPa inside the pharynx can blow out anything connected - facial skin and eyes. Compare Nikolai's more natural features to the other three.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 10:11:19 PM by SteveCalley »

March 06, 2018, 05:13:02 AM
Reply #9

SteveCalley

Guest
What's with Kolevatov?  Of the autopsy accounts in May for those in the den, Alexi's is the hardest and most vague. The other three had lethal blast injuries. Sasha's seemed vague and no compellingly lethal damage was described. The other three were blown up in the den, for sure. Kolevatov? Not certain.

March 06, 2018, 05:46:38 AM
Reply #10

SteveCalley

Guest
The autopsies offer a wealth of information.
Blood in the postmortem pleural fluid is suggestive of blast lung.  Hemopericardium suggests blunt trauma to chest.
Even the two Yuris had no hemopericardium or pleural bleed - and one of them fell several meters from the tree!
The parchment-like abrasions seem to be autopsy jargon for something. Dilated venous prominence is a major finding of uncertain significance in my experience.  Look at one of the Yuris photographs of his forearm. It looks like a river delta!  That's called postmortem marbleization as bacteria form dyes out of heme breakdown, I learn. Nothing unusual.
There are autopsy clues suggesting Rustem survived something like blast trauma, but no fractures. He was found on an antemortem ice bed, so he must have cooled to death right there. Wasn't blown up in the den.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 04:43:16 PM by SteveCalley »

April 20, 2018, 05:26:44 PM
Reply #11

SteveCalley

Guest
Look at autopsy pictures of marbling, a reticulated mesh work of stained veins. Truly amazing. But marbling shouldn't occur in frozen flesh. No?

April 20, 2018, 06:04:15 PM
Reply #12
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Loose}{Cannon

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I dunno....  Should it?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 20, 2018, 07:05:27 PM
Reply #13
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CalzagheChick


Okay I can see where you're going with human physiology, and I've always sort of thought in the back of my head since starting this wild goose chase that these bodies were exposed to some of the most extreme conditions even in life. This HAD to have some effect on their physical bodies in some way (e.g. already decreased blood flow from being in sub zero temperatures for days--impending hypothermia notwithstanding; changes in altitude & weather are the easiest, most obvious physical environmental changes to consider. No matter how minor the change, it would still be a change that could skew the expected results in any number of ways)

As for physics? I put my foot down there. I can't stand physics. Give me all the chemistry and anatomy/physiology problems you desire. You're on your own in terms of taking on the physics. It's not because I just don't get it, either. I have a weird thing ever since a very young age: I'm completely unable to estimate distances and measurements. I have no concept of the distances they always bring up (500 meters, 15 meters, 5 yards, hell I can't even picture 3 inches with any sense of accuracy.) I can do advanced math, I just feel like physics has me at a serious disadvantage because force and impact and distances and other measured forms of science just leave me as in the dark as when I started even if I have a definite answer/solution in front of me. If I can't imagine it, how can I accept it?

April 20, 2018, 08:46:03 PM
Reply #14

SteveCalley

Guest
Physics separates the possible from the impossible. And sometimes the people from the impeepable!  bigjoke
Easter humour, sorry. fun7
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:02:27 AM by SteveCalley »

April 21, 2018, 10:45:04 AM
Reply #15

SteveCalley

Guest
Physics separates the possible from the impossible. No plausible natural explanation or primitive human action can effect these things. Deadly human innovations are necessary - a machine in broadest sense.
In a great sense, we seek Occam's Law which favors the fewest necessary independent causes of an outcome. More formally, the number of states that one cause can exist in, is less daunting than the multiplicity of independent causes.
For example, Rube Goldberg's contraptions are amusing in that an excess of sequential causes are linked together. None may fail or the machine fails. Each cause must be on such a state to execute properly. If there are 10 causes, the chance of success is  tenth-power polynomial.
Such a thing is obviously more dicey than a single cause with a set of states, the subset of which succeed.
Back to Kholat Syakl, the puzzle is frustrating as there apparently is no obvious single cause of it all. Several independent causes coincided to cause this particular outcome, to Occam's regret.
One size does not appear to fit all.
Those events that seem to have one simple cause should be analyzed as though completely unconnected to the others. Otherwise you are clumping things together which don't fit well.
Remember, the first cause of Rube Goldberg's machines, was Rube Goldberg. So, too the Dyatlov mystery will have a first cause. But it cannot be deduced from the phenomenæ.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 10:57:07 AM by SteveCalley »

April 21, 2018, 10:54:00 AM
Reply #16
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CalzagheChick


Physics separates the possible from the impossible. No plausible natural explanation or primitive human action can effect these things. Deadly human innovations are necessary - a machine in broadest sense.
In a great sense, we seek Occam's Law which favors the fewest necessary independent causes of an outcome. More formally, the number of states that one cause can exist in, is less daunting than the multiplicity of independent causes.
For example, Rube Goldberg's contraptions are amusing in that an excess of sequential causes are linked together. None may fail or the machine fails. Each cause must be on such a state to execute properly. If there are 10 causes, the chance of success is  tenth-power polynomial.
Such a thing is obviously more dicey than a single cause with a set of states, the subset of which succeed.
Back to Kholat Syakl, the puzzle is frustrating as there apparently is no obvious single cause of it all. Several independent causes coincided to cause this particular outcome, to Occam's regret.

It's really weird you just mentioned this because I just brought this up in a way in the new theories threads.

April 21, 2018, 03:34:46 PM
Reply #17

SteveCalley

Guest
Quote
It's really weird you just mentioned this because I just brought this up in a way in the new theories threads.
No surprise. We are a rather bright and intuitive bunch, and new thoughts echo and resonate amongst us. That's the fun of it.

September 27, 2018, 02:07:08 PM
Reply #18
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So where is the physics of materials  !  ?  No METALS were found by the searchers.  Also any blast injuries would contain metals or traces of metals. NON FOUND.
DB

December 02, 2018, 01:11:46 PM
Reply #19
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Jacques-Emile



January 05, 2019, 06:13:07 PM
Reply #20
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Star man

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The autopsies offer a wealth of information.
Blood in the postmortem pleural fluid is suggestive of blast lung.  Hemopericardium suggests blunt trauma to chest.
Even the two Yuris had no hemopericardium or pleural bleed - and one of them fell several meters from the tree!
The parchment-like abrasions seem to be autopsy jargon for something. Dilated venous prominence is a major finding of uncertain significance in my experience.  Look at one of the Yuris photographs of his forearm. It looks like a river delta!  That's called postmortem marbleization as bacteria form dyes out of heme breakdown, I learn. Nothing unusual.
There are autopsy clues suggesting Rustem survived something like blast trauma, but no fractures. He was found on an antemortem ice bed, so he must have cooled to death right there. Wasn't blown up in the den.

  Great forensic breakdown of explosions.  I like it.   grin1 I have been looking for this effect of post mortem marbleisation?  I think you raise a very good question.  Your question is the answer to a question that I have been looking for with respect to the dialog group.  One of the effects/symptoms I have been looking for is whether any of the group were found to have significant bacterial blood infections - before they died.  Your right that if their bodies had been frozen shortly after death, then you would not expect to see this bacterial marbling effect.  However, if they had been exposed to high levels of radiation then the rapidly reproducing cells of the stomach and intestines would break down radidly leading to significant blood infection, sepsis and death.  So could the marbling be a sign that they had these blood infections before they died?


January 06, 2019, 01:05:20 AM
Reply #21
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Nigel Evans



stadhaugh.com offers 20 minutes until frostbite, -10 F ~ -23 C, 15 kph wind.
Even if an under-dressed, terrified hiker covered the distance to the cedar in rapid time, 4.5 kph or 2.8 mph, which is a rather brisk speed in winter hikes - the hiker arrives half-dead with frozen flesh, no time for building a fire, etc. And when the hikers were laden and underway, it took them a frigid hour to move 1500 meters on skis. Could a poorly clad hiker even get so far as the cedar?


You ask a good question and the answer imo is that it wasn't that cold.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 02:10:31 AM by Nigel Evans »

January 06, 2019, 08:32:43 AM
Reply #22
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Star man

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Snow pressure.

Is it possible that the chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon were received after they died?  According to the histotological examination of the body tissues of Lyuda and Semyon there was no underlying cellular reaction.  The normal cellular reaction to tissue damage being swelling of the surrounding tissue.  If they were already dead then you would not expect the cellular reaction.

I've done some simple calculations for snow pressure and for about 5 metres of snow there would have been at least 1 tonne of force exhurted on their chests?  Coult the chest damage simply be crushing force from the weight of snow, with subsequent leakage of blood fluids into the body cavities?

January 06, 2019, 09:35:47 AM
Reply #23
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Nigel Evans


Snow pressure.

Is it possible that the chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon were received after they died?  According to the histotological examination of the body tissues of Lyuda and Semyon there was no underlying cellular reaction.  The normal cellular reaction to tissue damage being swelling of the surrounding tissue.  If they were already dead then you would not expect the cellular reaction.

I've done some simple calculations for snow pressure and for about 5 metres of snow there would have been at least 1 tonne of force exhurted on their chests?  Coult the chest damage simply be crushing force from the weight of snow, with subsequent leakage of blood fluids into the body cavities?


Both Semyon and Lyudmila died from internal bleeding with the volume of blood allowing the pathologist to estimate how long they lived post trauma.

January 06, 2019, 11:37:48 AM
Reply #24
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Star man

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Snow pressure.

Is it possible that the chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon were received after they died?  According to the histotological examination of the body tissues of Lyuda and Semyon there was no underlying cellular reaction.  The normal cellular reaction to tissue damage being swelling of the surrounding tissue.  If they were already dead then you would not expect the cellular reaction.

I've done some simple calculations for snow pressure and for about 5 metres of snow there would have been at least 1 tonne of force exhurted on their chests?  Coult the chest damage simply be crushing force from the weight of snow, with subsequent leakage of blood fluids into the body cavities?


Both Semyon and Lyudmila died from internal bleeding with the volume of blood allowing the pathologist to estimate how long they lived post trauma.

But what about the lack of a cellular reaction in surrounding tissues?

January 06, 2019, 01:17:51 PM
Reply #25
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Nigel Evans


But what about the lack of a cellular reaction in surrounding tissues?
I'm not qualified to comment!  kewl1
The pathologist was very clear, they died of these injuries.

January 06, 2019, 10:48:42 PM
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Star man

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I can't imagine that the possibility of snow pressure cracking the ribs has not already been considered, or the conflicting reports between the histology results and pathologists determination of cause of death. 

The bodies were found during the thaw so they were probably not frozen solid under the snow.  Also if they were exposed to enough pressure to crack their ribs then that same pressure would also push any bodily fluids into the body cavities.

The autopsy found up to 1.5 litres of dark red fluid in the body cavity.  That's about 3 pints, which doesn't seem that much.  It says cause of death was the combination of the trauma and cold effect which seems a bit vague.

I don't think snow pressure would explain Thibos skull injury.

It would be good to eliminate snow pressure as a cause but to me there seems to be conflicting information in the case files.

Just out of interest in the case files section posted on the forum there seems to be missing text xxxxxx etc is this simply bits missing from the original reports or illegible text/writing?

January 07, 2019, 02:28:54 AM
Reply #27
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Nigel Evans


I can't imagine that the possibility of snow pressure cracking the ribs has not already been considered, or the conflicting reports between the histology results and pathologists determination of cause of death. 

The bodies were found during the thaw so they were probably not frozen solid under the snow.  Also if they were exposed to enough pressure to crack their ribs then that same pressure would also push any bodily fluids into the body cavities.

The autopsy found up to 1.5 litres of dark red fluid in the body cavity.  That's about 3 pints, which doesn't seem that much.  It says cause of death was the combination of the trauma and cold effect which seems a bit vague.

I don't think snow pressure would explain Thibos skull injury.

It would be good to eliminate snow pressure as a cause but to me there seems to be conflicting information in the case files.

Just out of interest in the case files section posted on the forum there seems to be missing text xxxxxx etc is this simply bits missing from the original reports or illegible text/writing?
Before the thaw the bodies would have been as hard as ice? There is a pathology issue in general with keeping bodies frozen in that the water rich organs expand and can damage bone structures such as the skull (brain expansion) but not afaik the rib cage which in these cases suffered shockwave trauma which is different. But i'm relying on the pathologist to determine these matters. As a pathologist working in Siberia i would expect him to be acquainted with the effects of freezing on corpses. After the thaw they were under a "lens" in running water?
I think the xxxx is from the translation software admitting defeat, perhaps the terminology getting too technical?

January 07, 2019, 04:44:17 AM
Reply #28
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Star man

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The people in the den were likely huddled together, and some evil person threw or dropped a serious military explosive device into their midst.  The reports say that the victims' heads were found 30 cm. apart.  Let's assume that the bomb went off a meter or so from each of them.  Perhaps they were in a little huddle 25cm. apart.
What is the Sadovsky equation, given r in meters = 1, and trying to solve for m, the mass of the explosive in TNT equivalents, and the overpressure in atmospheres?






The TNT equivalents would be 17g on solid earth, or 300g. in air, if they were a meter apart.
The TNT equivalents would be 400 mg on solid earth, or 800mg. in air, if they were 30 cm. apart.

Lethal concussion grenades usually hold about 500g of TNT equivalents; nowadays, quite a bit more.
Just for comparison - if they were all 3 meters apart, it would take 4-8 kilograms to ensure a kill.
How is this possible?  Why, it's clear from the equation that there is a huge r3 component.  Up close, it doesn't take much.  Flash-bang grenades have 9 grams of low-intensity explosive - see https://www.combinedsystems.com/_pdf/MSDS/MSDS%207290%20Rev%20C%20Flash-Bang.pdf
I don't have the relative explosivity of perchlorate, but I know it's low.  Could it be the equivalent of 400-800 mg. of TNT, in a 9-gram package?  Sure.
There was no firm intent to murder the persons in the den.  It was incredibly careless to use any explosive in the den, where people could be grievously injured.  They were.
But WHY?  What were the searchers after? and how can I be so certain?


Given the close proximity of such a device wouldn’t there be scorch marks and damage to soft tissue?  Also, evidence in the snow of the device, metal fragments etc?

What if the blast came from much further away?

January 07, 2019, 04:51:29 AM
Reply #29
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Star man

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I can't imagine that the possibility of snow pressure cracking the ribs has not already been considered, or the conflicting reports between the histology results and pathologists determination of cause of death. 

The bodies were found during the thaw so they were probably not frozen solid under the snow.  Also if they were exposed to enough pressure to crack their ribs then that same pressure would also push any bodily fluids into the body cavities.

The autopsy found up to 1.5 litres of dark red fluid in the body cavity.  That's about 3 pints, which doesn't seem that much.  It says cause of death was the combination of the trauma and cold effect which seems a bit vague.

I don't think snow pressure would explain Thibos skull injury.

It would be good to eliminate snow pressure as a cause but to me there seems to be conflicting information in the case files.

Just out of interest in the case files section posted on the forum there seems to be missing text xxxxxx etc is this simply bits missing from the original reports or illegible text/writing?
Before the thaw the bodies would have been as hard as ice? There is a pathology issue in general with keeping bodies frozen in that the water rich organs expand and can damage bone structures such as the skull (brain expansion) but not afaik the rib cage which in these cases suffered shockwave trauma which is different. But i'm relying on the pathologist to determine these matters. As a pathologist working in Siberia i would expect him to be acquainted with the effects of freezing on corpses. After the thaw they were under a "lens" in running water?
I think the xxxx is from the translation software admitting defeat, perhaps the terminology getting too technical?

There seems to something not quite right about the available information.  Pathology says blast wave but no shrapnel or scorch marks. Histology says no cellular reaction. So if it wasn’t snow pressure, or a fall or an impact from some object and it was a blast wave then was it a large blast from something quite far away but big, that killed them quickly thus preventing time for a cellular reaction?