August 24, 2019, 01:02:51 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Infrasound? Most unlikely.  (Read 8372 times)

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September 11, 2018, 06:32:55 AM
Reply #60
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WAB


Valera Anjamov at a sign .........

Dear WAB, very interesting material. It may not be the most fitting thread, but because you mentioned this here, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you write that his father extracted a bear in 1958? Was there one? Do these signs indicate the presence of a bear in Mansi notation?

Dear cz! When I will have more time than now, I will try to write in detail about signs of mansi  hunters. On these signs there are marks about when it was time, and how many hunters were on the given hunting. Even is about quantity of dogs which were with them.  grin1
It will be as decoding of those signs which saw and has photographed Dyatlov group.
It is necessary only to a few time instead of wait. I should prepare a lot of the initial information. This theme for me is not the my basic business, therefore I not often write at this forum.

However I think that it not that section of a forum where it is necessary to speak about it. Then let Administrators of this forum will prompt, in what theme it is better do it?

September 11, 2018, 11:46:42 AM
Reply #61
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
 WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.
DB

September 12, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
Reply #62
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CalzagheChick


Actually as I sit here in my special part of the US waiting to get pounded by Hurricane Florence which I probably should have evacuated for days ago, we are reminded of 1989's Hurricane Hugo which butchered our landscape. The thing is, when you read what people have to say about Hurricane Hugo who were here when it struck, they all say about the same thing: it was like very suddenly the sound of a train on their front lawns. I'm talking people who were 12 at the time to much older people like my grandfather: they all say the same thing. It sounded like a train suddenly came through and it was incredible.

So the whole infrasound theory? Although I'm not a fan of it in this case, I definitely know that infrasound is an incredibly frightening phenomenon and it's not just a theoretical thing.

September 13, 2018, 06:57:11 AM
Reply #63
Online

Morski



I see. Turns out, that two of the many very important (for me) questions (1.The 25 year non-diclousre; 2.The closed area) have a more reasonable explanation. Thank you for claryfying these questions for me. Your opinion and answers are helping to put some order in the chaos of the incident. Still, the more I read from the documents and various opinions, the more questions I have. Same as all of us, I believe.

Certainly, it is possible to explain all quite usually, without presence superfluous essence. However it not so is interesting to some people. They should decide, what they though to receive? Or they want to write the scenario for a detective film (as a variant - for a horror film) or they want to find out that there was actually?.

By the way, you can probably still read in bulgarian with no problem. Our languages, grammar and spelling are similar to a certain extent.

I hope that it is valid so. However while I do not have that interesting on the Bulgarian. That magazine has ceased to be published for a long time already. Or it does not arrive to them to our country …

I can read and comprehend russian very well, but my speaking is... Terrible, or at least amusing for native russian speakers.

It is not important. Any Russian person who wants understand that speak on the Bulgarian is able to do it always in 80 % of cases. I mean a natural dictionary fuse. For a long time already (some tens years) I communicate with my Ukrainian friends everyone in the language. It occurs to those who prefers to speak in an Ukrainian. And we speak and we understand each other absolutely freely without any inconveniences.
So it is not necessary to hesitate to speak, very big percent of our people will quite friendly apprehend about what they speak. If that does not understand that - means will ask again or will specify.
And here with gestures " yes " also " not ", here there can be comical situations. They is at us opposite. :)


Anyway, it is never to late to come go Bulgaria. Probably it is easier then ever before.

Thanks. Unfortunately now at me it is too much difficulties what to go where that, besides, that is necessary on emergency.

Cheers!

It is a toast?

Yes, I am sticking to more reasonable explanations for what might have happened back in 1959 as well. It makes sense to try every natural explanation first, before considering legendary creatures or alien forces. Anyway.
Радио и Телевизия ceased to exist around 2002 if I remember correctly, so thats why wont see it anymore.
About the visit to Bulgaria, I was just saying that it is cheaper and faster to travel nowadays, of course, if you have good reason to do it.  wink1
As for the "Cheers" , it is a toast. Nice to talk to you, sir.

September 13, 2018, 01:01:58 PM
Reply #64
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes infrasound may be very frightening in certain situations. So could the roar of a bear in certain situations etc etc.
DB

September 14, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
Reply #65
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CalzagheChick


And I'd be more inclined to believe that a frightening sound was caused by raging winds before I'd ever believe that same frightening sound came from any cryptids (but alas a bear wouldn't be a cryptid however I have a very specific reasons why I don't believe it was a bear which I addressed in general discussions)

September 26, 2018, 12:05:30 PM
Reply #66
Offline

WAB



..........................................

Yes, I am sticking to more reasonable explanations for what might have happened back in 1959 as well. It makes sense to try every natural explanation first, before considering legendary creatures or alien forces. Anyway.

This absolutely correct behaviour. Otherwise it is possible to confuse all this history definitively. It and so is strongly confused.

Радио и Телевизия ceased to exist around 2002 if I remember correctly, so thats why wont see it anymore.

Probably, for this reason I cannot read it now. kewl1

About the visit to Bulgaria, I was just saying that it is cheaper and faster to travel nowadays, of course, if you have good reason to do it.  wink1

Yes, I so have understood it. Unfortunately, I am valid I can not visit now it … bang1

As for the "Cheers" , it is a toast.

Take health now, sir!

Nice to talk to you, sir.

I thank you, sir!
You are very kind.  clap1

.......................

It is my time out now... cry2

September 28, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
Reply #67
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc. So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ?  Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers. 
DB

October 07, 2018, 11:02:28 AM
Reply #68
Offline

WAB


I have passed this message. Very much in vain.

WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.

I got it. I had very well-founded suspicions that you try, as at us our speak «дурковать (gurgle - in English)» or (if on slang) « лепить горбатого (throw dust into people’s eyes - in English) ».
Excuse me if I have resulted wrong English termы.
Only it is necessary to continue to do it very carefully (and to put smilies), differently it is possible to pass easily as babbler. Then sensible readers will simply cease to pay attention to you.
I would like to learn, what at you is preparation in section of radio physics and biology of bears?
And as:
1.In what place of a bear there are aerials of these ranges of this radio frequencies?  grin1
2.What type these aerials: "Array”, “magnetic loops”,  “downhill ray”, "dipole", “Yagi-Uda”, “ Rubber Ducky” ?  grin1
3.What sensitivity of receivers and efficiency of transmitters?  grin1
4.Modulation of signals there sideband or there is available upper sideband (USB) with lower sideband (LSB) or the are double sidebandamplitude modulation (DSB-AM)?  grin1
5.What range of a radio communication in the conditions of mountains, type of what in Northern Ural Mountains?  grin1
6.And the most important thing: I would like to learn what system of coding of his signals?  grin1
Maybe it all is useful to me at defence against bears at a following exit in that area.  grin1
If you do not answer these questions, at you very much an every prospect to receive a rank which I have designated in lines above.  grin1

October 07, 2018, 11:06:42 AM
Reply #69
Offline

WAB


The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.


It is good. Even if they about what knew that, as they can that that to do if there was an irritant which could not allow work well for a brain?

So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ? 

They did it because influence degree to their brain was above a limit of shipping or possibility of indemnification of this influence.

Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.

At first. These are your desires, instead of their possibilities.
At second. There is a fact of that they are found in different parts of slope. Therefore it is possible to say only that they have met only in that quantity which was when them have found. The rest it is there are your conjectures. All disposition of groups and material evidences say that they did not co-operate after have escaped from tent.

October 08, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
Reply #70
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have passed this message. Very much in vain.

WAB says and I quote ; Please, do not forget to put smilies after you speak about megahertz.  grin1  Сertainly if it is joke. Or dimension of units of frequency in this you paragraph should be changed to KILOHERTZ. In the rest it is the usual information which at us usually inform schoolboys in 6 or 7 class of basic school at physics lessons. I know about it already very long as perfectly. Thanks

I say, Its not a joke. And 16 and 20 megahertz is 16,000 and 20,000 kilohertz, respectively.
Many members and people who read the Forum may not be aware of certain things so its good to mention such things in as simple a way as possible, and not complicate matters.

I got it. I had very well-founded suspicions that you try, as at us our speak «дурковать (gurgle - in English)» or (if on slang) « лепить горбатого (throw dust into people’s eyes - in English) ».
Excuse me if I have resulted wrong English termы.
Only it is necessary to continue to do it very carefully (and to put smilies), differently it is possible to pass easily as babbler. Then sensible readers will simply cease to pay attention to you.
I would like to learn, what at you is preparation in section of radio physics and biology of bears?
And as:
1.In what place of a bear there are aerials of these ranges of this radio frequencies?  grin1
2.What type these aerials: "Array”, “magnetic loops”,  “downhill ray”, "dipole", “Yagi-Uda”, “ Rubber Ducky” ?  grin1
3.What sensitivity of receivers and efficiency of transmitters?  grin1
4.Modulation of signals there sideband or there is available upper sideband (USB) with lower sideband (LSB) or the are double sidebandamplitude modulation (DSB-AM)?  grin1
5.What range of a radio communication in the conditions of mountains, type of what in Northern Ural Mountains?  grin1
6.And the most important thing: I would like to learn what system of coding of his signals?  grin1
Maybe it all is useful to me at defence against bears at a following exit in that area.  grin1
If you do not answer these questions, at you very much an every prospect to receive a rank which I have designated in lines above.  grin1

Thats a very long reply.  Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.
DB

October 08, 2018, 04:17:16 PM
Reply #71
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The Dyatlov Group would have been aware of the various dangers on route such as WILD ANIMALS, HEAVY SNOW SHOWERS, LIGHTNING, STRONG WINDS, etc etc.


It is good. Even if they about what knew that, as they can that that to do if there was an irritant which could not allow work well for a brain?

So why should they panic if such an event happened  !  ? 

They did it because influence degree to their brain was above a limit of shipping or possibility of indemnification of this influence.

Surely they would as a Group feel some safety in numbers.

At first. These are your desires, instead of their possibilities.
At second. There is a fact of that they are found in different parts of slope. Therefore it is possible to say only that they have met only in that quantity which was when them have found. The rest it is there are your conjectures. All disposition of groups and material evidences say that they did not co-operate after have escaped from tent.

The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.
DB

October 09, 2018, 11:10:31 AM
Reply #72
Offline

WAB



Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.

Whether it has been printed in magazine Areo, signed by James Lindsey and Peter Boghossian?
If so it has turned out casually  grin1?
If it not so, I like to learn a source?
Especially me interests, how "accuracy" was defined?

October 09, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
Reply #73
Offline

WAB


............................
The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.

What can be more serious than frustration of stability of nervous system or brain functioning?
You can know as any control system when she starts to function on resonant frequency of instability behaves?
If you remember, the Iranian factories on manufacture of nuclear fuel have been put out of action by the harmful program which worked in this way.

October 10, 2018, 01:37:30 PM
Reply #74
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Scientists have carried out numerous studies and those FREQUENCIES I gave are accurate scientific results.

Whether it has been printed in magazine Areo, signed by James Lindsey and Peter Boghossian?
If so it has turned out casually  grin1?
If it not so, I like to learn a source?
Especially me interests, how "accuracy" was defined?


Here is a link to one such scientific study of sound / frequencies. http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/7/1116
DB

October 10, 2018, 02:20:19 PM
Reply #75
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
............................
The point is that whatever happened must have been so serious that the Dyatlov Group all left their TENT together to escape to safety, not having the time to collect any clothing or other items. It looks like a life and death evacuation of their TENT.

What can be more serious than frustration of stability of nervous system or brain functioning?
You can know as any control system when she starts to function on resonant frequency of instability behaves?
If you remember, the Iranian factories on manufacture of nuclear fuel have been put out of action by the harmful program which worked in this way.

I have heard STORIES about the possible use of certain weapons that use SOUND in order to affect people. But all the stories I have heard of have not resulted in the serious injuries or deaths of people. And such weapons did not exist in 1959.
DB

November 28, 2018, 04:57:48 AM
Reply #76
Offline

WAB



Here is a link to one such scientific study of sound / frequencies. http://jeb.biologists.org/content/210/7/1116

It is very strange. I already answered this message in a forum, but it is not present for the unknown reason.
I will try to restore it on my memory.
I have read this article still then, but have not found out there any references to frequency in such units as megaHertz (MHz).

Here the citation from this article where the resume of all research is resulted:

«Summary
While there has been recent concern about the effects of sound on marine mammals, including polar bears, there are no data available measuring the hearing of any bear. The in-air hearing of three polar bears was measured using evoked auditory potentials obtained while tone pips were played to three individually anaesthetized bears at the Kolmården Djurpark. Hearing was tested in half-octave steps from 1 to 22.5 kHz. Measurements were not obtainable at 1 kHz and best sensitivity was found in the range from 11.2–22.5 kHz. Considering the tone pips were short and background noise measurements were available, absolute measurements were estimated based on an assumed mammalian integration time of 300 ms. These data show sensitive hearing in the polar bear over a wide frequency range and should cause those concerned with the introduction of anthropogenic noise into the polar bear's environment to operate with caution.» (с)

Please show to me where here it is told about frequencies in terms of MHz.
The maximum frequency which is designated in this article is 22.5 kHz. It is border between heard (human) a sound and ultrasound. In the rest it is a range of sounds heard (human). Frequency equal approximately 1 kHz and overtone from it, it is a roar of a bear.
As a result it means that all range of frequencies for dialogue of bears is in a range of heard sounds for human.
Therefore here there no is radio physics of high frequencies (as MHz).

November 28, 2018, 05:02:33 AM
Reply #77
Offline

WAB



....................................

I have heard STORIES about the possible use of certain weapons that use SOUND in order to affect people. But all the stories I have heard of have not resulted in the serious injuries or deaths of people.

Yes. There were such researches in the nineties which were conducted with the big intensity in the different countries. It was called research not the lethal weapon. Including were with infrasound use. Direct generation of an infrasound (IS) has been connected by that very big capacities for this purpose were required. The sizes of devices should be will turn out as huge. The main thing was not clear in how it was necessary to protect the personnel of installations from defeat as IS those frequencies which were necessary, was not directed, easily got through traditional accident protection devices and was poorly weakened in them. Therefore military experts have very quickly refused use of this updating in direct application.
However in nature this phenomenon both was, and remains it.
The most realistic devices not lethal weapon have been created on the basis of radiators of ultrasonic frequencies of two different, but the very close located ultrasonic frequencies. At their mixture after processing by a brain of the person which has been amazed by them, he perceived it as IS "necessary" infalow frequencies.
In a press there were publications that such devices have been used for struggle against pirates from Somalia near to Ormuz strait and the African horn peninsula.


And such weapons did not exist in 1959.

Yes of course.

December 04, 2018, 06:54:59 AM
Reply #78
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



Any proofs does not exist. That there was that that another, except a case of natural damage. It is thought out by people who cannot understand physics of process of reception of damages under natural conditions.
Proofs are not conversations on theme, and material traces which are a consequence of real actions, instead of thought up.
Besides, they would like to find what that criminal events. So it is more interesting to them to understand this case. But between desires and truth there is a science which is called biomechanics of reception of a trauma. To a natural case detailed consideration of topology of traumas deviates. It is impossible to strike in a ju-jitsu a plane of very big sizes or a narrow superfirm subject of the conic form 3,5 х 2 sm (1,5 х 1 in). It will be surrealism.
To accept or not to accept as obvious to any person, it is subjective opinion. The opinion depends only on desire of the person, instead of from an objective reality.
You persistently do not want to accept a condition and the district characteristic because you them did not see and cannot imagine them.

There are no numerous certificates and, especially, objective data that it was a crime. It simply ideas of people which gravitate to conspirology. I studied this case directly on a place, professionally was engaged in researches in the biomechanic, studied all available documents and talked practically to all participants of events who were live to 2006, any objective certificates was not present. There are very indistinct memoirs which are accompanied by touch of hearings and legends. But no confirmed certificates are present. Many people far from professionals think out any improbable versions which are impossible actually. There is no objective information more. I hope that you understand a difference that what that the person speaks words, and in practice it appears, it not so. It is called as subjective opinion. More often this opinion appears incorrect. As it are takes place in this case.

For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury. Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim. I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder. Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.

There is no need to make a great song and dance about "conspirology." To try to discredit other people with such labels is an extremely impolite and above all extremely unscientific way of discussion, and that kind of labeling has no place in a serious discussion.

We need to approach the Dyatlov Pass deaths in a rational and investigative way.

The answer does not lie in the terrain.

The answer does not lie in the infrasound theory, which is perhaps the most far fetched and unrealistic of all the speculative theories there are.

Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.

The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:01:30 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

December 04, 2018, 06:20:31 PM
Reply #79
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
RE PER INGE OESTMOEN.  SEE QUOTES BELOW.

[[  For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury. Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim. I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder. Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.  ]] 

 Even if it were physically possible to cause such injuries by the JIU JITSU, which is highly unlikely, the question then is why just DUBININA  !  ? 


[[  Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.
The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.  ]] 

The original Autopsies left a lot to be desired. For instance, there was very little description of the injuries regarding DUBININA's TONGUE and other parts. There wouldnt be much left of the bodies after so long a time, soft tissues long gone.  But it would be very useful to look at DUBININA's RIBS.

DB

December 09, 2018, 01:55:34 PM
Reply #80
Offline

WAB


My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it


For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.

Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.

Not by a single blow, but by repeated blows on a victim.

Aha, and so 6 +5 consecutive times at Dubinina? And then 5 more consecutive times at Zolotaryov? And they easy lay, turned and all looked as though it better it to substitute that it would look as blow about a plane
You understand, what you have told?

I never thought, said or assumed that the damage was caused by one single strike. The single strike theory was introduced by people who assumed - wrongly - that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not murder.

Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.
If you want to tell that there have come what to kill specially for Dyatlov group for no reason at all it means that you consider the listeners as idiots, and they are ready to listen to any words without reflecting on sense. It is characteristic for idiots - not to perceive the validity as it is.
The reason should be very considerable. Such that other possibility would not be.
The reason is necessary real, instead of simply decided or a mere verbiage because even to get on this place there is very big problem. You did not try it and have decided it to ignore. Even if not to tell what to find tent on a slope of mountain at night and at bad weather it is absolutely impossible.
You did not try it, and even far do not represent, and have decided it to ignore absolutely
I recommend look, what there happens weather, at least here on these video: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing 
These are day shootings. Add here darkness and try to find tent in mile from last trees. And above a wood zone on 500 foots on lifting height. In district which has no appreciable reference points.

Of course, if one starts from the mistaken premise that it was not murder one must assume that the injuries to the ribs was caused by one single blow.

Means you at first have decided that it was murder, and then under it select what that nonexistent reasons.
We have such fairy tale: "There are only two opinions:
1.- My opinions ultimate (that is yours!)
and
2. – it is wrong opinions another's ".
Here you precisely approach under the maintenance of this fairy tale …
Only the maintenance of events does not approach under this opinion.

There is no need to make a great song and dance about "conspirology." To try to discredit other people with such labels is an extremely impolite and above all extremely unscientific way of discussion, and that kind of labeling has no place in a serious discussion.

So in what you are engaged, absolutely precisely approaches under this term. You thinks out nonexistent crimes, and then all in the possible ways try to inspire it the rest.
In the east speak: "Even if 1000 times to tell a word halvah, in a mouth becomes more sweet not" (Therefore let's operate not with words about"murder", and the facts and scientific knowledge. And here with it at you very difficultly moves ahead. You yet have not answered one concrete and directly asked question. You have only one admonitions as on the sermon in church. It there is important - trust or not, that would not trust here is required, and knew.
And what you speak about "a scientific and unscientific way of discussion"? It is an admonition method is scientific? "Good" there should be this your "science" …  grin1

We need to approach the Dyatlov Pass deaths in a rational and investigative way.

And so also operate by means of the facts (fact it is that exists irrespective of your opinion. It or is, or it is not present in general), instead of by means of duplicating of own opinion which is equal to ignorance of about what speak.

The answer does not lie in the terrain.

You so well know district, what it confidently to deny?
At you the answer has hung in mid-air, or entirely is only in your imagination? Or you want to tell, what if district conditions (that is the facts) do not approach under your "theory" you think, what let it will be worse for these facts?

The answer does not lie in the infrasound theory, which is perhaps the most far fetched and unrealistic of all the speculative theories there are.

I have paid attention that the less person knows about that that he says, the it is more at it than hardness that the such does not exist.
Here also there was first "touchstone" for that finding-out that you mean in this theme. To be exact that do not know.
Tell, and what you know about an infrasound? Except the name?
Physicist of this phenomenon?
Conditions at which it is arises?
How operates on psychology and human physiology?
How operates on behaviour style of person after infrasonic influence?
If you not in a condition competently and in detail to answer these questions, it turns out that all your attempts that that to tell about it, are an empty phrase which does not contain any thought.
How you define degree of approach or removal from true of the given theory?
By a principle: it was pleasant to you personally, or it was not pleasant?
And you try to accuse others of that that they produce the false reasons.

Nine dead bodies were found. The only way, I repeat the only way, to approach such a find in a scientific manner is to perform a thorough examination of the bodies and of the injuries found on them.

It has already been made 60 years ago. New already never will be. If to you few those facts that already are, it is not necessary to think out (invented) "facts".
They is false.
Esteem please that moderator has written in theme heading. Can be though it will help to you.
•”Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”© ― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

The answers lie in the bodies, and all of the bodies should ideally be exhumed for a thorough investigation with modern methods. That is the only way to dispel the false notion of a series of accidents being responsible for the Dytalov Pass tragedy in 1959.

Exactly: "Answers consist in bodies, and all bodies should be ideally dug out for full research with modern methods" (с)
And instead you result one spells about murder and do not result any arguments, and do not mention any scientific methods of research. You speak about a science much, and avoid use its methods.
Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?

December 19, 2018, 03:19:21 PM
Reply #81
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have done a little research on the infrasound and it seems that it is a credible phenomenon.  I read that test on several hundred people all at the same time created a negative response in about 20% of the people.  I suppose the number of people affected and how significant the response would depend on the magnitude of the infrasound.  The effect of infrasound may be rooted in evolution in that animals have been known to flee when they detect it.  In natural phenomenon infrasound accompanies major natural disasters such as earthquakes.

The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent?  I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.

I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.

One idea I have recently been considering is that the traumas to those in the ravine were self inflicted.  Given that they were freezing to death and probably knew they were going to die, is it possible that they thought that they wanted to end it faster?  It's probably not likely, especially if they had a knife to cut branches for the den as they could have found a better way that throwing themselves off the side of the ravine.  There are lots of variables

December 20, 2018, 01:33:22 PM
Reply #82
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have done a little research on the infrasound and it seems that it is a credible phenomenon.  I read that test on several hundred people all at the same time created a negative response in about 20% of the people.  I suppose the number of people affected and how significant the response would depend on the magnitude of the infrasound.  The effect of infrasound may be rooted in evolution in that animals have been known to flee when they detect it.  In natural phenomenon infrasound accompanies major natural disasters such as earthquakes.

The question is was infrasound the reason why the dyatlov group left the tent?  I don't think that it's impossible and it's something to consider.

I do think that it's credible that the traumas and deaths after leaving the tent were sustained in a natural way, such as falls into the ravine.

One idea I have recently been considering is that the traumas to those in the ravine were self inflicted.  Given that they were freezing to death and probably knew they were going to die, is it possible that they thought that they wanted to end it faster?  It's probably not likely, especially if they had a knife to cut branches for the den as they could have found a better way that throwing themselves off the side of the ravine.  There are lots of variables

Well yes its possible that a SOUND scarred them all out of their TENT.  But would that SOUND be the reason that they left the SAFETY of their TENT and also left all their belongings and head down a mountainside in such conditions. And its been stated many times by different people that some of the injuries to the group were of such a force that its highly unlikely that they were caused by falling into a ravine. And then there is the mystery of the MISSING TONGUE and EYES.
DB

December 20, 2018, 02:35:12 PM
Reply #83
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

December 20, 2018, 02:46:21 PM
Reply #84
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just a second thought on the fight or flight instinct.  It is just that an instinct.  We see the effect in any communal group of animals.  E.g one or more animals in a herd who have sensed a predator can start a stampede, even though most of the animals in the herd may not have sensed the threat directly.  I think this instinct exists in humans too.

December 20, 2018, 03:54:45 PM
Reply #85
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.
DB

December 20, 2018, 04:30:25 PM
Reply #86
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.

The hyoid bone comment is a bit vague for an autopsy report?  What does unusual movement mean?  Would expect more specific comments really but suppose that is not going to happen now.  Could this also have been damaged in a fall?

For the infrasound and panic flight response.  I can relate this possibility to my own experience and knowledge.  When I ran from the cave as a child, I was not exposed to sub zero Siberian weather conditions, but if I had been and had been poorly dressed then I went well over a mile before I stopped running.  In the conditions on the mountain that night, with the tent as the only means of survival, my fiends and I would have been in big trouble if the event had happened there.

Again in terms of the comment on the chest injuries being related to a car crash, it's a bit vague.  A car crash at what speed?  A fall f 5m or so would be an impact of about 22 miles/hr.

December 22, 2018, 06:52:39 PM
Reply #87
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think the missing tongue and eyes can be explained by a combination of small animal predation, and natural decay processes.  Foxes, birds, rodents etc.

I'm not convinced infrasound could have caused them to leave the tent and the camp site without their gear, but it is possible that one or two of the key group members were affected, and they could have panicked and initiated a panick of the rest of the group.  Depends on their influence within the group and the group dynamic.  I have seen it before.  It is called the Abilene Paradox, or some kind of variation of it.  It's where one or more people convince others that their lives are in mortal danger.  I actually remember doing it myself when I was a kid.  Myself and some friends were walking in the mountains and we came across a cave.  The cave was dark and we went to the entrance.  I saw something move toward the back of the cave and a glint of an eye and brown fur.  It's scared the bejesus out of me and I instantly went into flight mode.  I remember shouting to my friends and running from the entrance.  My friends could sense my state of alarm and on observing my reaction, starting running too.  They knew something had startled me and they were just as scared as me.  They were not going to hang around to find out what it was that sent me hurtling down the hill.  After a while we stopped and they asked me what we were running from.  I told them I had seen something strange in the cave.  One of my friends said yes, there was a sheep in the cave.  Psychology is a strange thing. So I infrasound theory is now scoring higher in my book.  I'm still not convinced it was infrasound though.

In terms of the injuries, it looks possible that the ravine could have presented a potential fall of up to 5m or so.  Also may have been higher depending on if there were any snow drifts.  I think a fall of up to 5m or more even onto a flat hard surface could be enough to beak ribs and smash skulls. 

Let's consider the velocity they would be travelling at:

V = sqr(2 x 9.81 x 5) = about 10 m/s. that is one hell of thump. It probably like jumping off the roof of  a two story house and landing on your chest. Ouch.

There is much debate about the cause of the injuries to DUBININA. It wasnt just a MISSING TONGUE, THE HYOID BONE was described in the AUTOPSY has having unusual movement. So no predator that we know could cause that  !  ?  I agree with what you say about PANIC FLIGHT, I too have experienced that when younger.  But I doubt that that would have applied in this case.  The RIB injuries to DUBININA were described as likened to a CAR CRASH. Also a BEAR or such like could cause such injuries.

The hyoid bone comment is a bit vague for an autopsy report?  What does unusual movement mean?  Would expect more specific comments really but suppose that is not going to happen now.  Could this also have been damaged in a fall?

For the infrasound and panic flight response.  I can relate this possibility to my own experience and knowledge.  When I ran from the cave as a child, I was not exposed to sub zero Siberian weather conditions, but if I had been and had been poorly dressed then I went well over a mile before I stopped running.  In the conditions on the mountain that night, with the tent as the only means of survival, my fiends and I would have been in big trouble if the event had happened there.

Again in terms of the comment on the chest injuries being related to a car crash, it's a bit vague.  A car crash at what speed?  A fall f 5m or so would be an impact of about 22 miles/hr.

The HYOID BONE is a very tough cookie.
I wouldnt run a mile, but stop and look back and assess the situation. Something caused all the group to do a runner for a mile, what the hell was it that caused that EVENT.
The person or persons who made the remarks were probably thinking in terms of something very substantial ie not a slow speed crash.
DB