June 23, 2018, 02:18:11 PM
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Author Topic: Infrasound? Most unlikely.  (Read 650 times)

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March 12, 2018, 07:46:03 PM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?

I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.

However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.

These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us. But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.

The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

April 06, 2018, 02:26:56 PM
Reply #1
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hanno


I agree with you. Wind can make a strange sound, that's for sure. But make you feel so uncomfortable that you leave your tent only in underwear when it is -20 degree ... I can't imagine.

Beyond this: I never heard about a documented case where infrasound can make you crazy. And there were so many people on Kholat Syakhl since the accident, and never ever something similar happened. And further even if there would be infrasound, not all hiker would react to it in the same kind. No, it must be a real danger, as an avalanche, a burning stove, mansi hunter, even a bomb or a rocket.

What I find strange is, that Donnie Eichar favorites this theory. I mean he was personally on that mountain, met with real persons as Yuri Yudin and he is surely one of the experts of the case. And then he comes with the infrasound theory that is in my opinion so unlikely.

April 08, 2018, 02:02:18 PM
Reply #2
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WAB


Was infrasound subconsciously influencing them and making them lose their senses, so that they fled?

Yes, such can be under certain conditions. In it specify some researches, in particular works of such researchers as W Gavro (France), Tarozy (Austria) and some other.

I have learned that some believe that low frequency sounds which formed around the mountain where the nine members of the expedition camped could have influenced their psyche in such a way as to induce a flight reaction to the degree that they left their warm tent and fled underequipped and vulnerable into the dark and cold Siberian night.

There is such hypothesis. I think it is rather probable.

However, that theory is improbable to the point of being impossible.

Why?
There are researches in psychophysiology which confirm that if there are influences on a brain of the person in a resonance with brain biorhythms (scale - or delta - a range) such effect is possible quite. The infrasound which influences the person with certain frequency and intensity level, creates accumulation of a certain dose of absorption then there is an effect reminding "panic". It is called the changed Altered state of consciousness (ASС). Such medical researches too exist.
As mathematicians speak: on a place there are all necessary and sufficient conditions for such event.

These people were intelligent, experienced and evidently mentally as well as physically strong. It is likely that we can become nervous and even scared by sound frequencies that are capable of subconsciously influencing us.

Nature influence on the person is so great that it does not depend on its skills and desire and I.Q. Possibilities of the person to resist of the nature are limited. They are not infinite.

But it is unrealistic to assume that nine resourceful people would let panic overtake them to such a degree that they all would flee the tent. They all knew very well that to leave their shelter in -25 C in the middle of the dark night improperly dressed and without winter mittens, gloves and winter boots is a suicidal action which will invariably lead to death.

It is possible provided that their actions are made reasonably. However ASC it not so non-realised actions, and finish submission to instincts. In other words, it is sequence of behaviour which is caused by psychology - "panic" condition - an involuntary condition of fear - desire to escape from at place where there is a false sensation of danger.

The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)

April 08, 2018, 02:11:50 PM
Reply #3
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WAB


I agree with you. Wind can make a strange sound, that's for sure. But make you feel so uncomfortable that you leave your tent only in underwear when it is -20 degree ... I can't imagine.

But, nevertheless, there are physical phenomena which " I can't imagine " (с). It no-dependent clothes on degree and ambient temperature.

Beyond this: I never heard about a documented case where infrasound can make you crazy.

There are some indirect instructions on such cases. However that there are no regular supervision and studying of this phenomenon, them can carry to other reasons.
Some persons on all planet Earth are engaged in such researches of all. And at amateur level and not regularly. The reason for it simple - is not present commercial effect in the future. Even in the long term time.


And there were so many people on Kholat Syakhl since the accident, and never ever something similar happened.

It is the big error so to consider. For all 60 years after that the case was not only one group (in 1999) which stopped for one night near to that place where there was a tent of Woodpeckers crew. Weather that night was absolutely another from that that was at Woodpeckers crew.
The stop was special, they made travel to the 40 anniversary of incident of Woodpeckers crew. It was university UPI command.
Besides, there some times on 7 … 9 days spent the night we with my friend - Shura (Alexander Alekseenkov). We specially there came for research of incident of Woodpeckers crew. Here our video  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkU_SsNR7iV2VzEaVSu3ccQ .
Trustworthy information about other commands at us is not present.
However I very well know about that as the infrasonic wave extends and absorbed - I specially was engaged in this phenomenon. Therefore we stopped in such place of this pass where we could not suffer from this phenomenon.
Other groups which they there were passed by very quickly (10 … 30 minutes). Especially it is necessary to notice that their big part passed at good weather where such phenomena could not be observed basically.


And further even if there would be infrasound, not all hiker would react to it in the same kind. No, it must be a real danger, as an avalanche, a burning stove, mansi hunter, even a bomb or a rocket.

If to consider this case in detail it is excluded. If it is interesting, I will try to analyse in details all these reasons in detail. If only time and possibilities has sufficed me. I have not enough both that, and another.

What I find strange is, that Donnie Eichar favorites this theory. I mean he was personally on that mountain, met with real persons as Yuri Yudin and he is surely one of the experts of the case. And then he comes with the infrasound theory that is in my opinion so unlikely.

Anything strange. Donnie Eichar absolutely consider fairly that the similar hypothesis can explain all without attraction superfluous and nonexistent as a matter of fact. I quite share its opinion. At least because advised him on this incident and accompanied it to pass, in its travel there.
We have make progress of this opinion independently from each other and at various times.

***************************************

As to trust or not to trust in such events, it is concept as in religion - the belief, instead of what that knowledge and experience is necessary simply. I is supporter of the scientific approach to understanding of such processes.

April 09, 2018, 04:52:23 AM
Reply #4
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Per Inge Oestmoen


The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)


Infrasound is not a physical threat of the highest order. It may influence people's mental state. But to hypothesize that it can make nine people out of nine flee their tent and into the Siberian winter night and not return to the tent is quite a stretch.

Infrasound couid not be the reason why all nine perished. It is simply impossible.

Observations by meteorology at the time disproves the theory that the wind was strong enough as to create any such effect.

More importantly, the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group members point unmistakably to all of them being murdered by humans attacking them. Only Igor Dyatlov would seem to have truly died from hypothermia, all the others showed various degrees of injuries that can only have resulted from an attack. The members of the Dyatlov group became the victims of a very intelligent attack, where they all were lined up after they were forced out from the tent - and then they moved away from the tent in a way that strongly suggested that they were forced to walk. They were not fleeing in panic from the tent, the tracks clearly show that. Still, even if there was no panic only one had boots on and none of the victims had proper winter gloves. If they had fled in a confused mental state with panic and disorder, the tracks would have shown that.

All available evidence strongly suggests that the attackers mercilessly calculated that forcing the nine people out in the winter without proper protection of hands and feet would lead to their death, and so they made sure that their hands and feet were unprotected. However, according to the weather reports at the time, the temperature this night in the relevant area was no colder than -18-25C, and so the Dyatlov group members did not die as soon as expected. The attackers must have followed them after some time - in order to make sure that they perished. Significantly, the last four who died were those who were relatively better dressed and who also suffered the worst injuries. Their attackers must have judged that these four would be able to survive for several days and perhaps even could escape, so they decided to kill them with strong force.

Rustem Slobodin is thought to have been killed first, and this is also as expected. He was very athletic, and would have tried to resist. But his skull was crushed, and he was left unconscious in the snow and died after some time. It is not possible that the damage to his head could have been caused by him falling to the ground.

Neither infrasound nor any other atmospheric phenomena can fight with people, such phenomena cannot break skulls, necks and rib cages.

There is no possibility that the injuries documented could be caused by falls, because the ravine was not deep enough or sufficiently precipitous and the injuries would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies. It is extremely suspicious that some investigators even mentioned a fall as a possible cause, and it is clear that the Soviet authorities did not want the investigators to draw the only sensible conclusion that this tragedy was a case of a cold blooded murder with planned intent to kill all nine hikers. The severe damage to the rib cage of two of the victims is particularly indicative of a murderous attack. It is probable that the damage was done with elbow strikes to both sides of the rib cage, a technique which is well known from close combat techniques. No superhuman strength and no bomb blast is required to crush a person's rib cage.

The Dyatlov group was murdered. The great mystery lies in why it was done and who did it. That question can only be answered if and when some of those who know tell the truth of what happened.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 05:03:08 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

April 19, 2018, 06:25:09 AM
Reply #5
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WAB


The only possible reason why they still just did that, is that the nine members of the group faced a very tangible and real physical threat of the highest order.

The physical phenomenon - infrasound and its influence - also is " very tangible " (c) and “ physical threat of the highest order ” (c)


Infrasound is not a physical threat of the highest order.

Why?

It may influence people's mental state.

I also confirmed it. And it is enough of it to start all chain of events

But to hypothesize that it can make nine people out of nine flee their tent and into the Siberian winter night and not return to the tent is quite a stretch.

Why # 2? It is one should be required substantiation why it is impossible.

Infrasound couid not be the reason why all nine perished. It is simply impossible.

If tell that the infrasound has killed 9 persons it cannot really cause.
It only promoted that people would escape from tent. All the rest were made by the nature in the form of a frost. And as traumas and stress get after escape from tent. They have escaped in such clothes which was insufficiently for this purpose that they could survive.

Observations by meteorology at the time disproves the theory that the wind was strong enough as to create any such effect.

Why you so have solved? Whence you took the data on supervision by meteorology?
Under my data all that was necessary also it was necessary force.

More importantly, the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group members point unmistakably to all of them being murdered by humans attacking them.

It has no substantiation. I will tell about it in following paragraphs.
On the basis of what you do such decision? What signs can specify in that have killed them?
In records coroner that traumas concern to acquire on a place of their movement is accurately described only. I well know details of a place of all events, what so confirm. Besides, I prosecuted subjects of biomechanics of shock influences what accurately know about that they such signs.

Only Igor Dyatlov would seem to have truly died from hypothermia, all the others showed various degrees of injuries that can only have resulted from an attack.

Please list those signs as which you consider concerning an attack? About whom I will not tell in the following phrase.
Deadly traumas were only at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles and Lyudmila Dubinina. Simeon Zolotaryov's traumas have led to death from freezing complicated by that it could not render the fast and qualified aids. The trauma of Rustem Slobodin has resulted it with gradual freezing. Because it could not move from that place where it was trauma. And nearby there was nobody from its his friends.
On a place of events I and my friend have precisely enough established all places where bodies have been found. Near to each of them there are conditions of develop of those traumas which at them described coroner. Except a place where the trauma was develop by Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. But it can be caused that place where the lantern thrown on a slope has been found out. There too it is a lot of conditions in which he could develop such trauma.

The members of the Dyatlov group became the victims of a very intelligent attack, where they all were lined up after they were forced out from the tent - and then they moved away from the tent in a way that strongly suggested that they were forced to walk.

This incorrect representation about their behaviour and arrangement on place.
Here the map by scale which designates their position on a slope. It is made as a result of careful scrutiny of documents by searches and reconnoitring of this districts.
 


Traumas do not contain any signs of that they were put by extraneous people or participants of Dyatlov team. There is article (in Russian) where all traumas are in detail considered from a biomechanics position .

They were not fleeing in panic from the tent, the tracks clearly show that.

To which signs it can be defined?
Traces have been found out by small sites, on a distance of one group from another. On them it is possible to define only direction and quantity of people which have left them a method of superpositions. That is on the sum of separate signs.
Besides, it is impossible to define that people yet did NOT make, that they have already made is possible only. It is impossible to understand that is not present. That is available Is possible only.

Still, even if there was no panic only one had boots on and none of the victims had proper winter gloves. If they had fled in a confused mental state with panic and disorder, the tracks would have shown that.

Than traces which leave at "panic" (I differ has defined it as a stressful condition when they did not understand, what they make or ASС) from what people will leave at the realising actions? It cannot be distinguished. Traces do not possess speech or reason which can deliver the information. And outwardly they look absolutely equally.
Absence of the necessary clothes which is necessary in such situation and as that for this purpose that her would be required to take absolutely small time, just and says that their actions were not realised. Even if the name "panic" here is use not correct. Matter is not in the name, and to do the action.
General  direction for all and concentration of traces it was defined by a bias downwards and a wind direction. They went to a wind direction downhill.

All available evidence strongly suggests that the attackers mercilessly calculated that forcing the nine people out in the winter without proper protection of hands and feet would lead to their death, and so they made sure that their hands and feet were unprotected.

You mean which proofs? Whence they are given? Please list them and particularly specify that to that should correspond?
And as it is interesting to me to learn: how and possessing what skills there extraneous people could get? Especially considering that they should approach to tent at the night-time and at very bad weather. How they carried out logistics and orientation in those conditions and why nobody has noticed them in settlements? Considering that these settlements are located far from this place and it is not enough of them. Literally is one or two.
In sparsely populated district any extraneous person is swept well up. Group of people mast be noticeable especially.

However, according to the weather reports at the time, the temperature this night in the relevant area was no colder than -18-25C, and so the Dyatlov group members did not die as soon as expected.

At such temperature which was and in those clothes in which have found participants of Dyatlov team  person can live approximately 5 … 8 hours. Provided that it forces itself to move constantly, compensating thermal losses from a frost. Level of these losses corresponds approximately 350 … 500 Vt and more. Especially it concerns the person who is blown by a wind. At those speeds of winds that are characteristic for that district, level of losses can increase approximately to 3 … 5 times. Windless weather in woodless areas of Northern Ural Mountains practically does not happen. Average speed of a wind, characteristic for such conditions which were for Dyatlov team in the night February, 01 to 02nd, 1959 should would be about 10 … 15 m/s (20 to 30 knots).

The attackers must have followed them after some time - in order to make sure that they perished. Significantly, the last four who died were those who were relatively better dressed and who also suffered the worst injuries. Their attackers must have judged that these four would be able to survive for several days and perhaps even could escape, so they decided to kill them with strong force.

These are what that fantastic conditions of murder. They too difficult and irrational. And then, what for so artistic performance to display all on all slope? It what them is easier and faster was to find?
Why murderers so long and ineptly addressed with people? They should drive all somewhere in a hole and to dig during snow that them could find only when all snow would thaw.
They not murderers and whom that silly persons who would want that them have found faster and have punished … Leave such quantity of proofs after themselves full idiots could only.
And then, where and how they have disappeared? Have evaporated without traces? And their traces have evaporated too?
No, that version contain of murderers turns out the extremely insolvent.

Rustem Slobodin is thought to have been killed first, and this is also as expected. He was very athletic, and would have tried to resist. But his skull was crushed, and he was left unconscious in the snow and died after some time. It is not possible that the damage to his head could have been caused by him falling to the ground.

This incorrect statement. At all points.
1.Rustem was trauma and died absolutely alone. Otherwise who that of companions has at least tried to assist it aid.
2.The Place where it have found is in several metres from that place where it easily could receive head injuries having fallen in the dark here with such snow eaves:
There difference more than 2,5 m ( 8.5 ft at level of feet) + its growth is equal 1метр 72 sm (5 ft 7 in ), all about 4 m (13 ft). It is quite enough of it that would will receive a head injury with a crack a skull. In such condition the person faints also coordination of movements. It is not capable to leave of the big distance. For this reason it also have found in several metres ( or yd) from it snow eaves.
3.The Similar trauma does not give possibility to survive in the conditions of cold is not dependent on any sports, or any other qualities.

On these 2 pictures you can visible the place about which looks have find out Rustem Slobodin in the winter 1959.


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Height of a ski stick is 140 sm (4.5 ft). The general difference on snow eaves about 2,5 m (8 ft). If it add Rustem Slobodin stature of 172 sm (~5 ft 7 in), it is enough of it for this purpose what to develop such trauma which it had. I remind, hi moved in this place in a night-time.

Neither infrasound nor any other atmospheric phenomena can fight with people, such phenomena cannot break skulls, necks and rib cages.

Both these of the factor need to be considered separately. Infrasound only has provided conditions to escape from tent, and all the rest already result of other events which do not concern to infrasound. It is not necessary to conform to all to same. It is not true.
Traumas grow out of actions of people in the bad conditions weather defined by a cold, a wind, darkness, a stressful condition, a lay of land, impossibility to pass further in wood where there is a wood for a fire, or to return to tent behind to the necessary things.

There is no possibility that the injuries documented could be caused by falls, because the ravine was not deep enough or sufficiently precipitous and the injuries would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies.

It too the incorrect statement. The slope where traumas of a thorax at Ludy and Simeon have been height, has difference height approximately 7 … 8 metres (22 or 26 ft), and a steepness about 40 degrees. More than it is enough of it what to develop such, or more serious traumas.
On this image the slope from below is visible. On the top of a slope there is Yury Yudin. His height is 177 sm (~5 ft 9 in)
 


In 1959 this slope was without trees and the big bushes.
It is necessary well and in details to know place where there were all actions of this incident. I would like to ask a question: why “ would not show such a pattern as was found on the bodies.”©? As well as to what signs you define it?

It is extremely suspicious that some investigators even mentioned a fall as a possible cause, and it is clear that the Soviet authorities did not want the investigators to draw the only sensible conclusion that this tragedy was a case of a cold blooded murder with planned intent to kill all nine hikers.

Before whom in what that to accuse, it is necessary to establish authentically the fact of what it was murder? Such signs by detailed consideration of a problem it is not found out. Imagination limits does not exist, therefore people are inclined to treat what they do not know in what kind that of deliberate actions of criminal character. If to understand on the substance or is professional, it turns out more and more simply and usually, as always in life. Any solution is more usual, than it is drawn by antiscientific fiction writers.
In this incident it is necessary to itself to ask a question: that you want to make - either to find true, or to write the fantastic story on a theme - as I would like that it would look. Imaginations always much more difficult also are more unreal than happens in the nature. But it is more interesting to the reader. It is necessary to choose for itself that is necessary: truth or interest of the reader?

The severe damage to the rib cage of two of the victims is particularly indicative of a murderous attack. It is probable that the damage was done with elbow strikes to both sides of the rib cage, a technique which is well known from close combat techniques.

It is completely excluded from the point of view of the description and mechanics of reception of traumas. It is result of influence with “a plane of the unlimited size” - as speak in medicine (in traumatology). Elbows and other elements of participants of "near fight” have rather limited area and cannot cause such traumas.
The hand has width (diameter) approximately in 8. 10 sm  (maximum) conform to 3 or 4 inch and what to be trauma thorax characteristic for Simeon (and furthermore Lyudmila) is necessary to have a plane (!) in the size more the thorax, that is more than 40 … 45 sm (15 to 17 in) Differently will be only a thin breach in width hardly less than this diameter. Thus, what to develop such force in the conditions of winter and those clothes which were on them (and after all and "attacking" too “were not naked”), it was unreal. The force should be not less than one ton of force on each thorax. Besides, in that case, breast bones that is not present in the description necessarily would suffer.
At both of them (at Luda and Simeon) break lines are on distance more than 45 sm (17 in) and out of a tangent line of a plane of a breast. That is characteristic for flat blow of the big area of the contact causing destruction of bones of edges in points of the greatest pressure which settle down already behind a line of the least bend of edges.

No superhuman strength and no bomb blast is required to crush a person's rib cage.

About a blast wave I will not speak, yet there will be clearly whence it in general there it could appear … And at falling by rolling from a slope in height of 8 metres (26 ft) and a steepness 40 degree, and the subsequent sharp stop, thorax traumas turn out very easily. And the big plane it is a bottom part of a ravine.

The Dyatlov group was murdered. The great mystery lies in why it was done and who did it. That question can only be answered if and when some of those who know tell the truth of what happened.

In general it is impossible to answer imaginations seriously. There are no all real signs of murder: the motive, possibility to find tent at night, absence of the information where and when it should be with the accuracy, necessary that in general would be possible to find it, weather conditions for such search, absolutely unsuccessful and unreliable way of murder, set of the artefacts left for show, impossible logistics to arrive into place and total absence of traces of stay on a place (and on approaches) extraneous people … will leave back,
It is possible to continue this list still for a long time.
Murder not the version, and it is the scenario for a detective horror film … Only so it also should be considered it.

April 19, 2018, 05:43:15 PM
Reply #6

SteveCalley

Guest
100% Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture from hitting head on rock peak. Such damage is not easily explained otherwise. A 3m fall onto rock is very considerable cause.
INDUBITABLY

 clap1
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 06:52:37 PM by SteveCalley »

April 19, 2018, 06:07:46 PM
Reply #7

SteveCalley

Guest
I cannot deny, Perfect!!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 06:53:48 PM by SteveCalley »

April 19, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
Reply #8
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Physics!

Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 20, 2018, 11:35:26 AM
Reply #9

SteveCalley

Guest
Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. C'est la vie
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 05:04:21 PM by SteveCalley »

April 20, 2018, 12:06:35 PM
Reply #10
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Can you put that in laymans terms?

What if the point of impact was......  A sharp edge or otherwise pointed?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 20, 2018, 10:51:27 PM
Reply #11
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 21, 2018, 10:03:29 AM
Reply #12

SteveCalley

Guest
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks?  With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.

April 21, 2018, 11:44:35 AM
Reply #13
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?
Why wouldn't there be a meter of snow on top of all rocks?  With a meter of snow present, one might still surely die, but with less amazing injury damage.

Ever seen wind blown snow drifts where its bare ground 5ft away from 3m?  Wonder what happens when wind whips down the side of a mountain and into a ravine.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 21, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Reply #14
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hanno


It is a fact that wind can have an influence on the mind of both human and animals. There are a lot of articles that describe it. Also I found a lot about infrasound, or how it is named "the fearing frequency".  There are some youtube videos that claim that you can hear the infrasound in the video. It is assumed, that infrasound is below 19HZ.

If you watch these videos, some people will hear nothing at all. Other people will hear something like a deep bass. Some people that hear this sound don't like it, other people don't care about. If you want to test. search for infrasound, open some of the videos and test it.

I think we don't have to discuss whether wind can make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. That is more or less a fact. But...

1) The affect that it can have is different from human to human since it is a psychologically phenomenon. It is very unlikely that nine people that differ in gender, weight, height an so on do react in the same kind.

2) I have extra written "a little bit" uncomfortable. OK there are some rumors that infrasound can make you panic and do crazy things, but no scientifically proof. Some people don't like the sound,  but c'mon, some people don't like techno or classical music or whatever. What the nine hikers did (leaving the tent in underwear) was almost suicide. If this was caused by infrasound, it must have a very very strong effect. Comparing with hearing the sound and jumping out of the window. I can't find such a event that was documented.

3) There are some rumors that infrasound sounds like the roar of a tiger. This makes sense for me because some thousand years ago tigers, bears and so on were the enemies of humans. If this time a human did hear such a sound he should better run away and because of this it makes sense to fear such a sound. But this would be a normal logical reaction and so would be the response.

Conclusion: Does something like infrasound or "the fearing frequency" or the "terrifying sound" exist? I would say probably yes. Does it have an effect on humans? Yes, I would think so. But the effect would vary from human to human. Some would feel nothing, some would feel a little bit uncomfortable, maybe someone would get a panic attack. But can infrasound make nine people inside a tent get in such a panic that they forget everything, cut the tent and flee into the cold? Honestly, I can't imagine.

So I don't say it is impossible. Maybe there was such a extreme situation that the infrasound was so "strong" that every human who would have heard it would fall into panic, but I doubt it. Besides this, such a sound would be a very good weapon.

And something funny besides this: If you search long enough for infrasound videos, you will sooner or later come to a so called "brown note". It is a rumor that this is a sound that makes you **** immediately. I tried it as I tried the infrasound videos but ... no effect.   lol2

April 21, 2018, 03:45:49 PM
Reply #15

SteveCalley

Guest
Isn't it scientifically unsound if you can't hear it?  grin1 Just kidding.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 08:32:00 PM by SteveCalley »

April 21, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
Reply #16

SteveCalley

Guest
a little here and a little there bigjoke.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 04:44:20 PM by SteveCalley »

April 22, 2018, 03:11:47 PM
Reply #17
Offline

WAB


Proofs do not arise from stubbornness.

Non acceptance of proofs always is a persistence direct consequence.

Nikolai Thibeaux died with a basilar displaced skull fracture contiguous with a ruinous temporal fracture. Such damage is not easily explained.

If we speak about crisis of basis of the skull (CBS) which was described by the forensic scientist it is easy to explain it. On a position of biomechanics of a skull at blow.
CBS this accompanying destruction at that trauma that was at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles (getting wound of a skull in the right temporal area). The reason that the arch of a skull and the basis it is uniform mechanical system. Therefore at loading on the skull arch, the skull basis too it is deformed. If the module of elasticity of the arch of a skull on an order (in 10 times) is more than at the skull basis deformation of the basis of a skull will be in 10 times more too.
Presence of a through breach of the arch of a skull testifies that deformation of the basis of a skull will be more than critical and there will be a destruction of the basis of a skull.
Energy required for such destruction is small - approximately 35 … 40 J. It is equivalent to head falling (the weight is equal about 5 kg) from height about 0,8 m.
It is all is simple enough laws which are studied in the biomechanic of a head as it is physical model.
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.

A 3m fall onto rock is very unlikely cause.

For this purpose, what to receive such trauma it would be not necessary to fall from height of 3 m. the height of own growth and a sharp stone Suffices. For example, for Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles this stone was 2 х 3,5 sm ( 0.78 x 1.3 in) it see had a pyramid-shaped the form. Such as the expert in forensic medicine has described a getting wound at Nikolas Thibeaux-Brignolles. In addition there was still a developed area of crisis 7 х 9 sm ( 2.75 x 3.5 in) which is secondary at a breach of a temporal part of a skull.
Such trauma was easy for developed on the third line of a stone ridge. As is in this picture:



On this image show the quantity of snow more than was in 1959.

Coral Hull saying demon-possessed Yeti just as likely. 

Yeti is not my basis. I am technical physicist, instead of cryptozoologist.
And with “the black climber” I was not in time yet will get acquainted still too.  grin1

Physics is physics, no?

What exactly is not pleasant to you in such section of technical physics, how is biomechanic?

Also if people fly for an irrational reason, would they not fly in an irrational manner?

It is abstractly possible to tell everything. Let better speak for the obvious reasons, but with sufficient degree of knowledge in a conversation theme.

April 22, 2018, 03:16:08 PM
Reply #18
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WAB


In literature on ring fractures, they require a peak force of at least 4400N (440 kg or 1000 lb.) and require 14J of energy to complete damage.

Whether and there are reasons to doubt, what such loadings are impossible in those conditions what were on a place of events?
By my calculations there it turns out much more than 1 tons of force (> 10000 N) at falling in group persons from slope height in 8 m.
If you read in Russian, I will give the reference to article where all it speaks simply.

American race car driver died of ring fracture upon striking massive object at about 300 kph. Earnhardt. Perhaps 200W of power to base of skull in 100 ms.

I am happy that on a place of accident of Dyatlov team there were no races of the formula 1.  grin1
Also that speed of movement on a slope of each person was less than 300 kph  grin1
 
These are huge releases of energy. That doesn't include temporal skull damage.

It is necessary research concrete conditions on concrete district then there will be no such unreasoned statements.

April 22, 2018, 03:21:24 PM
Reply #19
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WAB


Not my thing.  But tell me, how much force is applied when say 180 pounds traveling at running speed falls say 4 meters?
The fall takes about 900ms and downward velocity ~ 9 m/s. Total velocity ~ 9.5 m/s if runs 1.5 m/s. There's enough energy, 100J. But not enough force. A full header, skull only impact onto a stand-alone steel post, might be enough force. But ring fxs don't happen that way. The WHOLE BODY must travel no more than 8cm after impact.


I have not understood this post about. Please write more detaisl. All scheme of mechanic damage is a bit another. But it I will tell only when there will be a detailed description of your scheme.
Energy of 100 J can be enough for any trauma. Process is dynamic, therefore if give time of process deceleration equal 20 ms (2 ms is typical unit for processes in the biomechanic of blow to body person) force will be very big.
Do you can tell about these of 8 sm more in detail? What does it mean and why?
Whence is received figure 4 metrs I has not understood? But it is a question to Loose} {Cannon.

April 22, 2018, 03:23:05 PM
Reply #20
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WAB


« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 03:29:12 PM by WAB »

April 22, 2018, 03:27:37 PM
Reply #21
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WAB


Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?

I have shown condition of snow in a photo in the previous post. However it is level of snow much more than was in 1959. In a photo from a place of searches it is visible that slopes above were almost completely without snow.
 

 


April 22, 2018, 03:32:57 PM
Reply #22
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WAB


It is a fact that wind can have an influence on the mind of both human and animals. T
...........................
. I tried it as I tried the infrasound videos but ... no effect.   lol2

Excuse me, I any more have no time for the answer today. Your comment interesting, but it demands a lot of time, therefore I will answer as soon as possibility will be presented.

April 22, 2018, 04:24:35 PM
Reply #23

SteveCalley

Guest
Quote
I have not understood this post about. Please write more detaisl. All scheme of mechanic damage is a bit another. But it I will tell only when there will be a detailed description of your scheme.
Energy of 100 J can be enough for any trauma. Process is dynamic, therefore if give time of process deceleration equal 20 ms (2 ms is typical unit for processes in the biomechanic of blow to body person) force will be very big.
Do you can tell about these of 8 sm more in detail? What does it mean and why?
Whence is received figure 4 metrs I has not understood? But it is a question to Loose} {Cannon.
A simple rule of thumb for falling body that starts from rest and comes to rest is that the kinetic energy at start and finish is zero, as there is zero velocity.
For free fall, acceleration is g=10m/s2. What is deceleration at end?
Throughout fall, kinetic energy increases over distance as E= force*distance, force =mg (mass x g above)
Stopping distance requires dissipation of energy. If the fall is 1 meter and stopping distance is 10cm, the deceleration is 100g. See?
For suicide woman, fall of 300 meters and stop in 30 cm. is a 1000g deceleration over 30 cm, or perhaps 500,000 N.
This is rule of thumb, not law. Air resistance slows fall. So OK close.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:07:17 PM by SteveCalley »

April 22, 2018, 04:34:44 PM
Reply #24
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Ah.....   How about the unknown equation?

How deep was the snow on the west or east bank of the ravine and did a snow drift add height to the overall distance to sharp rock?

I have shown condition of snow in a photo in the previous post. However it is level of snow much more than was in 1959. In a photo from a place of searches it is visible that slopes above were almost completely without snow.
 

 


I was referring to the sides of the ravine where the rav4 were discovered.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 22, 2018, 05:33:42 PM
Reply #25

SteveCalley

Guest
Yes reply Russian article. Temporal skull frx 40j.
Also-very few force-time curves last 2 milliseconds. The body flops about, not like a rigid structure, in falls, which last 100ms. or so.
Only very quick things - bullets and explosions-act in 1ms. time frame.
That is why I am certain that the explosion in den killed all in an instant.
Better to post in Physics?
Physics of Explosions
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:01:58 PM by SteveCalley »

April 24, 2018, 12:55:50 PM
Reply #26

SteveCalley

Guest
I was engaged this business professionally for research of processes and design protective equipment for aircraft and astronauts. For example, ejecting seat and protective helmets of a head.
 

Of course, and out of respect I will hold you to such a standard.

Please explain to our friends here the difference between a ring fracture of the base of the skull, and a simple basilar skull fracture, and discuss the significance.

I note one review of the topic (sample page attached):
RING FRACTURES OF THE BASE OF THE SKULL, VOIGT GERHARD E. M.D.; SKÖLD, GÖRAN M.D.
Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery: June 1974 - Volume 14 - Issue 6 - ppg 494-505
In this discussion, the authors offer:



We note from the autopsy report here that:
???? e excision of the right temporal muscle is determined by a depressed fracture of the right temporal-temporal region, in a 9 x 7 cm area with a defect in bone tissue and a temporal bone 3 x 3.5 x 2 cm in size. The specified area of ​​the bone is pressed into the cavity of the skull and is located on the dura mater. After the extraction of the brain substance in the middle cranium, a multi-lobed fracture of the right temporal bone was observed with the divergence and transition of the bone fracture into the anterior cranial pit in the supraorbital region of the frontal bone, the second crack passes through the days of the surface of the Turkish saddle in the region wedge-shaped delay, deepening into the thickness of the main bone, then goes to the middle cranium ?? on the left, with a divergence of bone edges from 0.1 to 0.4 cm.

The pattern of basilar fracture may be suggestive of a violent lateral flexion impulse, analogous to the hyperextension - violent retroflexion.  The description of the fracture is coarse, but seems to discuss a contiguous fracture transiting the frontal bone, to the sella turcica, to the base of the bone behind the foramen magnum.  (see drawing).

I comment also that the impacted bone that was impressed is over 60 cm^2; quite a large region to impress.

A classical ring fracture (e.g. see Earnhart autopsy) causes discontinuity normal to the plane of the bone, displacing it to make a step.  If the anterior step shows the skull remnant attached to the vertebral column to be caudal to the rest of the skull, and the posterior step-off shows the skull remnant attached to the vertebral column to be rostral to the rest of the skull, this would be a classic ring fracture.  With a lateral impact, one would expect a step-off as discussed in the Thibaux autopsy to be opposite laterally - right/caudal (if present) and left/rostral.

The impacting of the bone edges of the temporal bone, and the displacement of the basal fractures, suggests an annular pattern due to violent lateral flexion.  Welcome thoughts.


Earnhardt autopsy below for comparison of ring fracture.




PPS:  It only takes about 150 J or less of slow axial traction to decapitate.  (Ugh.)  Ring fractures are the equivalent of internal decapitation.  A little more energy, and Nikolai's head would have angulated off his body completely to the left.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 01:16:28 PM by SteveCalley »

April 24, 2018, 03:28:18 PM
Reply #27
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Sounds like one hell of a way to over complicate a broken head.   Just my opinion, but there is more then one way to crack an egg without the use atmospheric pressure spikes, or the butt of a rifle. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 03:53:06 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 24, 2018, 04:36:19 PM
Reply #28

SteveCalley

Guest
 grin1 Rodger that Dodger!  thumb1

April 24, 2018, 07:18:49 PM
Reply #29

SteveCalley

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