October 17, 2019, 12:54:24 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Tent/Cedar Point of Views  (Read 4353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

April 16, 2018, 08:16:50 PM
Read 4353 times
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Thought this may be helpful to show the exact locations of the tent and cedar as seen from apposing directions.

From the tent looking towards the cedar.






From the top of the cedar looking towards the tent.






Perspective of both locations from a higher elevation on Kholat Syakhl 1097

« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:37:11 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 16, 2018, 10:28:17 PM
Reply #1
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
These are great! Do you know what this small shovel is doing there?
"Лопатка" means small shovel. Is there a shovel found at the scene?


April 17, 2018, 04:39:03 AM
Reply #2
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
I really don't know.  If they did, i don't believe it would be from the Dyatlov group.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 17, 2018, 02:13:26 PM
Reply #3
Offline

WAB


Thought this may be helpful to show the exact locations of the tent and cedar as seen from apposing directions.
...................................

It is not enough time for a forum, but I want to specify the pictures shown here a few.

The matter is that I have all too most, but defined on 5 years earlier, than it was take pictures by Dima Kozyrev. Its merit that it take pictures film camera FED (ФЭД) with the same objective.
Here the photo from the same place, only in August 2008. It is take pictures by digital camera Canon D350.
 


And here the photo take pictures in the winter on half a year later, February 2014. It is removed by digital camera Canon D350 also .
 


All it is also take pictures practically from the same point.

Specifications in the location of the basic objects will be such:
 


From the tent looking towards the cedar.
 


From the top of the cedar looking towards the tent.
 


Perspective of both locations from a higher elevation on Kholat Syakhl 1097*

*) in 1959 was not to use the name of mountain Kholat Syakhl. In documents of searches and in case it this mountain is called “1076”. It is old and not exact a mountain`s altitude in metrs above sea level.

Be well.

April 17, 2018, 04:35:28 PM
Reply #4
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Thank you for the clarification!     Is it possible you can locate the ravine 4 location?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 04:40:15 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 18, 2018, 05:15:39 AM
Reply #5
Offline

WAB


Is it possible you can locate the ravine 4 location?

I have not understood a question very precisely. If it concerns that I should specify this place (approximately or with accuracy + / - 40 … 50 m or 130 … 160 ft in place) on photos or on the image (small detail in scale to map) it to execute easily.
If it concerns an exact arrangement of a place (with accuracy + / - 10 … 15 m or 30 … 50 ft on place) it is impossible to make it during current time. Still there is no firm confidence that it is found with the big accuracy. There are 2 assumptions. These 2 places settle down on district to distance approximately 30 … 40 m or 100 … 130 ft.
There are 2 different methods to define it.
1. On visible and the image of stones and place`s folds.
2. Under the analysis of several photos 1959. By analysis sun position for day time and filming time, and to visual changes of a relief and etc.
While is the most part of participants of forums considers 1at variant correct. But them almost nobody was on a place be no present at right place, especially at the winter what to judge it correctly. Never correctness was defined by voting, but those who considers 1at variant correct is more.
I (and a little – 2 to 3 person from those who was on a place) we consider correct 2nd variant. But that place which will not coincide with the first variant more exact.
If to be fair it is necessary to tell that at us with my friend Shura (Alexander – it is official name) Alekseenkov different opinion on this place. We were on that place (in the winter on 4 times have visit together ), and in the summer 2 (I am) or 4 (he is) time. But we us different lines of thought to place definition.
It is necessary specify that in photo from above difference in these points will not be appreciable. The difference will be appreciable only on map (scheme or contour) very large-scale.
For example:



Here scale is 1: 2000 or 20 metres in (between) 1 centimetre, or 12 ft between 1 in.
I made it a method which apply to creation orienteering maps

What did you want to ask, as a question: “Is it possible you can locate the ravine 4 location?”©

April 18, 2018, 05:31:21 AM
Reply #6
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Can you put pointing arrow on this picture? 

All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
Reply #7
Offline

WAB


Can you put pointing arrow on this picture? 



Yes. But it will be imposed into place Dyatlov. Almost completely.

Here some other image of that picture:



April 19, 2018, 05:46:15 AM
Reply #8
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Wait wait wait...    Are you saying the ravine was south of the cedar and in between it and the tent?   Obviously much closer to the cedar....
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 06:37:15 AM
Reply #9
Offline

WAB


Are you saying the ravine was south of the cedar and in between it and the tent?   Obviously much closer to the cedar....

Please, do You could formulate a question in more details?

April 19, 2018, 07:00:47 AM
Reply #10
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Pokhozhe, vy pomestili ovrag 4 k yugu ot dereva i v storonu palatki? Naskol'ko ya ponimayu, ovrag 4 byl raspolozhen k severu / zapadu ot dereva.


It looks like you placed the ravine 4 to the south of the tree and towards the tent? It is my understanding that the ravine 4 were located to the north/west of the tree.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 07:10:51 AM
Reply #11
Offline

WAB


Pokhozhe, vy pomestili ovrag 4 k yugu ot dereva i v storonu palatki? Naskol'ko ya ponimayu, ovrag 4 byl raspolozhen k severu / zapadu ot dereva.


It looks like you placed the ravine 4 to the south of the tree and towards the tent? It is my understanding that the ravine 4 were located to the north/west of the tree.

Thanks. I can answer and in English too. To me important understand that it is necessary to show at in detail .
Today I already do not have time, I will answer later.

April 19, 2018, 07:12:40 AM
Reply #12
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Perhaps on this map better..



« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 07:44:56 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 10:23:19 AM
Reply #13
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
Дайте мне попробовать. Мне нужно WAB что подтвердить. Идея состоится в том, что, возможно, ему будет легче сказать, где я ошибаюсь.
Обратите внимание, что расстояние между изогипсы (горизонтали) на карте WAB составляет 5m . Расстояние между изогипсы на карте Loose Cannon составляет 20 м . Другими словами, карта WAB намного более чувствительна на высоту и детализирована. Всё действие - кедр и ден, находится между двумя незабилежимые синими лёнтачки на карте Loose Cannon, которые представляют 2 ручья, идущие в 4-й приток к реке Лозве, и которые едва можеть увидеться.
Итак, WAB, я права или не права о горизонталях что расстояние между ними на вашей карте 5 м?
------------------------------------------------------------
Let me try. I need WAB to confirm. The idea is that maybe it is going to be easier for him to say where I am wrong.
Note that the distance between the contours on WAB's map is 5m. The distance between the contours on Loose Cannon's map is 20m. In other words WAB's map is much more elevation sensitive and detailed. The whole action - cedar and den, is in between two flimsy blue lines on Loose Cannon's map that represent the 2 creeks going into the 4th tributary to Lozva river and that you can hardly see.
So WAB, am I right or wrong about the contours, is the distance between them on your map 5m?






April 19, 2018, 12:25:45 PM
Reply #14
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Something tells me thats not correct
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 12:30:46 PM
Reply #15
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Should be somewhere in here...



All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2018, 01:29:54 PM
Reply #16
Offline

WAB


Something tells me thats not correct

I have only 5 minutes :)

It is not necessary to hurry up .
" Friends, let's live in peace and friendship …?(c) - Leopold - cat.

April 19, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
Reply #17
Offline

WAB


Should be somewhere in here...


Almost here, but not absolutely … :))
After small time I will place here a detailed map. It is necessary make it only.

April 19, 2018, 01:33:55 PM
Reply #18
Offline

WAB


------------------------------------------------------------
Let me try. I need WAB to confirm. The idea is that maybe it is going to be easier for him to say where I am wrong.
Note that the distance between the contours on WAB's map is 5m. The distance between the contours on Loose Cannon's map is 20m. In other words WAB's map is much more elevation sensitive and detailed. The whole action - cedar and den, is in between two flimsy blue lines on Loose Cannon's map that represent the 2 creeks going into the 4th tributary to Lozva river and that you can hardly see.
So WAB, am I right or wrong about the contours, is the distance between them on your map 5m?



You write all correctly. Almost … :))))
What are discrepancies there?
1.On my of large-scale map is designated the North magnetic-line. The geographical North-line will be to 19,5 degrees to the West (in left-hand side). Because there east magnetic declination is equal 19,5 degrees. For current five-years term. It is possible to consider the Geographical line precisely to top card.
2.On a small-scale map the geographical north-line is specified only. Declination and wobbling data for it are specified on text registration behind a topographic map framework.
3.The card Scale in a natural kind is equal 1:2000. I already wrote it.
4.Horizontal line be drawn through 4 m on height. I did not go with a level on district, and drew how it do at drawing up of cards for sports orientatiring, that is "approximately". But I connected them with topographic map 1:25000. I have such topographic map in my archive.
5.On this map there is an error which is not important for winter - a channel of a near stream at a confluence to 4th tributary to Lozva river (4TL). I will try to correct it next time.
6.You have specified the Cedar perfectly.
7. Location large-scale map concerning small-scale map (dark blue ribbons) you have drawn represent correctly.
8.What is “Den” I do not understand yet. I so think that this place where there were bodies and the cut off trees. But it is only one of versions of this place. Later I will give explanatories about other places.
The resume: I have not enough time for employment on this theme, but I will create drawing of an arrangement of places on this large-scale map as soon as there will be a possibility. With writing detailed explanatories of an arrangement of places this events. Now I spend make assemblage of topographic maps which I promised to you.

April 20, 2018, 05:47:55 AM
Reply #19
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
Thank you for collecting the maps. This we call the den



April 20, 2018, 06:10:08 AM
Reply #20
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
WAB, are you saying I should have rotated your map, that North is up?

April 20, 2018, 04:06:01 PM
Reply #21
Offline

WAB


Thank you for collecting the maps. This we call the den



Thanks. I had it to understand. In the original it is called “flooring” ("nastil " or "настил " - in Russian). I will use your name.

April 20, 2018, 04:09:40 PM
Reply #22
Offline

WAB


WAB, are you saying I should have rotated your map, that North is up?

Answer: in each point of the earth there is a divergence between true (purely geometrical) and magnetic a direction to the North (in Northern hemisphere, for example). Magnetic and true Northern pole do not coincide in the location. The difference (corner between it and it) is called as variation of the compass. It is equal 19,5 degrees in the given place. That is, it is necessary add 19,5 degrees to a true direction on the North (to geographical Northern pole) what combine with Northern arrow of  compass.
Therefore the true North on this card (as well as on a small-scale topographic map) is strictly upwards of image sheet, and the arrow of a compass will specify to the right direct with corner 19,5 degrees.
There are places on the earth where both directions coincide, but it is very rarity.

It`s all today.

PS. The map is yet ready, I will soon make.

April 21, 2018, 12:31:23 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
WAB, I have this coordinates from KAN 2012 expedition. If you apply the elevations on your map the contour distance of 4m can't be true. It is hard to match even with 5m.

Cedar                    N61°45'53.20" E59°27'17.80"    647m
Mouth of creek 1:    N61°45'55.66" E59°27'13.36"    621m
Mouth of creek 2    N61°45'59.40" E59°27'15.40"    618m
Р4                            N61°45'53.85" E59°27'14.47"    641m
The bodies            N61°45'53.93" E59°27'14.64"    636m
Triple tree            N61°45'53.58" E59°27'13.75"    645m



April 21, 2018, 01:23:07 AM
Reply #24
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
WAB, do you have any GPS coordinates and/or elevation on any point?

April 21, 2018, 01:06:55 PM
Reply #25
Offline

WAB


WAB, I have this coordinates from KAN 2012 expedition. If you apply the elevations on your map the contour distance of 4m can't be true. It is hard to match even with 5m.

Cedar                    N61°45'53.20" E59°27'17.80"    647m
Mouth of creek 1:    N61°45'55.66" E59°27'13.36"    621m
Mouth of creek 2    N61°45'59.40" E59°27'15.40"    618m
Р4                            N61°45'53.85" E59°27'14.47"    641m
The bodies            N61°45'53.93" E59°27'14.64"    636m
Triple tree            N61°45'53.58" E59°27'13.75"    645m


Teddy I am very well know this KAN. He is expert not competent rather and uses much results of another's researches and estimations.

For example, here a difference in mine (and several others man) measurements of some points in expedition 2009 and KAN expedition 2012. Check was done by the independent person who now works in Detroit (He is Russian person, and well knows this theme, and well knows both of us - he is Timur or “ZSM-5
 


Please pay attention to a difference of points into red ellipses. Simultaneously with me in expedition 2009 co-ordinates of a cedar defined Alexey Koskin and the Kutsevich-Jr. It is designated on the scheme as «Кедр (ВАБ)». KAN-point is designated as «Кедр-2012».

Koskin there is  engineer of nuclear physics and the traveller with the experience more than 15 years (including winter). Kuntsevich-Jr is the son of the President “Fund of memory Dyatlov team” and the physicist-theorist. Our measurements have coincided to within 2… 3 m or 2...6 ft. On the specified scheme this difference it is impossible distinguish.
KAN no has experience of serious travel even in the summer. If he has some times visited a place of events he used another's operating time basically. He writes at different forums and only in it its merit in develop of these events much. Therefore it is not necessary to trust all that he writes without the serious analysis of the maintenance of its information. Badly that the alternative information no has wide access. People who create this information are very occupied by another business.
The result KAN- measurements is very much differs from these definitions. It is well visible on the scheme at  designation yellow lines. Simultaneously the difference in definition can be seen on a difference in a point of a mouth of the top stream. It is red ellipse at the top of the scheme. A designation « Устье 2-го ручья 2012».
The initial basis of the scheme is taken from the image of program Google Earth.
I think that KAN simply not adjust his GPS-device before measurements by expedition preparation.
But all these measurements GPS-co-ordinates have no importance because we should consider a situation essentially or simply from the point of view of general idea. The big accuracy will disturb here because will confuse in small divergences of accuracy of measurements.
By the way, I made this map of the basis of measurement more than 100 points on GPS-co-ordinates with do height measurement in inches (1 in = 0.305 m) in difference from KAN which had his the GPS-device with height measurement in metres. My GPS-device allows to measure with big accuracy because 1 metre is equal approximately to 3 inches. But it is not professional too, therefore can be discrepancies.
I, as well as many other things, who is interested in this question (about Dyatlov team), we have not so good opinion on KAN. At it too big ambitions and too small level of independent work. It is a lot of loan at others, it is very frequent without the reference to authors. But writes in forums and extends opinion it much. Therefore it can be more appreciable in comparison with many other things.
Nevertheless its some publications should be used for advantage of studying of this case.
Here is the approximate scheme of an arrangement of the used points (are designated not all points and are not designated what take account repeatedly (of or near to already used).
 


That is drawing by hand before the part map is drawn again in a digital form.
It is necessary to consider still that is Northern area and there are constant presence of the necessary number of companions GPS- satellite is casual. From this it follows that accuracy there is probability function. Still it is necessary to consider that inside GPS co-ordinates is put the special error measurements at amateur and civil devices. Approximately +/- 6 m (18 ft). It is not of great importance for travellers, and for manufacturing of maps matters. Because this error collects at summation of measurements.
On the promised picture I will specify all features how I represent it to myself.
I cannot quickly finish a picture which promised because constantly it is necessary to answer questions in this forum. I ask to make a small break to ask questions. I can`t have time to make all before I will leave for some time there where there is no Internet. In addition I have more many that it is necessary to execute on primary activity.
It is necessary while it will be limited to small number of discussed questions.

April 21, 2018, 01:11:34 PM
Reply #26
Offline

WAB


WAB, do you have any GPS coordinates and/or elevation on any point?

Yes. What concrete points you are interest?
I want to have time to finish the promised scheme tomorrow. At us now 11:XX:xx PM

April 21, 2018, 08:12:44 PM
Reply #27
Offline

WAB


It is the Scheme which I promised



Explanatories to the scheme of reconstruction of events at a cedar.

1.   The First right (near) stream, inflow to 4 TofL
2.   The Second right (distant) stream, inflow to 4 TofL
3.   The Left stream, inflow to 4 TofL
4.   Place find of part of clothes about a cedar
5.   Place find of knife presumably the sample 1959 on expedition 2009
6.   Place of the found 4 bodies in May,1959 under the version of some researchers
7.   Place of the found 4 bodies in May,1959 under my version. On this place there is a sharp fall of a channel 4TofL. It corresponds to the sizes more which is visible on pictures 1959. Besides it is corresponds to visible position of the sun on the known picture 1959 for photographing time.
8.   Place of a high slope (8 m or 26 ft heights)
9.   Place with which shooting the panoramic picture by searches in March 1959*
10.   Mouth of the second right (distant) stream
11.   Here there was a search team camp in May 1959
12.   Settlement border of deep snow in February 1959. Without having skis Dyatlov team could not pass further it.

 

*) It is that picture

If I have time to answer for questions before my departure they it can be set. But I have only 3 days. I will answer so much questions, how many I will have time to answer.
After 3 days I will not have possibility an access to the Internet.

About heights of points I will inform later.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 10:46:02 AM by Loose}{Cannon »

April 21, 2018, 11:54:05 PM
Reply #28
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
WAB, first of all thank you sooooo much for taking the time before your trip, where ever it is. I like going places with no Internet. When to expect you back?
1. On your map - "Place of crash", what is this? What crash? You think they fell from 8m hence the injuries of LD, SZ and TB? If yes, then how did they get to where they were found?
2. Is your map based on the theory that Krivo and Doroshenko walked separately and they were never all at once (alive) at the Cedar?
Because it looks to me that you are saying that Kolevatov went to the Cedar on his own, to explain the transfer of clothes.
3. Give me your coordinates and elevation for the Tent, Cedar, Triple tree, Ficus, the crash, Where the bodies were found (your version, their version), Mouths of creeks 1 and 2.
I have to update my Google map because it is based on KAN coordinates and as you say - I think they are off.

This is a lot to process... When are you coming back to Internet?



April 22, 2018, 02:31:16 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Teddy

Administrator
WAB, is this photo taken from a place on your map?