September 17, 2019, 03:48:37 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: First results from Zolotaryov's exhumation - Komsomolskaya Pravda  (Read 8599 times)

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May 12, 2018, 06:24:33 AM
Reply #30
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Loose}{Cannon

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Hello again!

Vietnamka

Is it possible for someone to sustain multiple injuries from say.....  falling from the height of a tall cedar, impacting atleast one branch under the armpit, and eventually impacting the ground..... perhaps on his back? 

Is the ravine down-slope from the cedar, and how many individuals would it take to drag another? 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 06:30:35 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2018, 11:17:21 AM
Reply #31
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Loose}{Cannon

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Is possible that Zolotaryov's injuries could have resulted from 2 almost simultaneous impacts of natural origin?  For example, if Zolotaryov and the others were standing on the rocky bottom of a ravine,  and the side of the ravine had tall/deep pack snow that collapsed......   Is it possible that impact #1 happened while standing when the 'wall' of ice hit him, and impact #2 resulted from his body being thrown against the rocks caused by impact #1.

Im trying to simplify my text due to language difficultly, please let me know if I need to clarify further, and thank you again!
I'm sorry for the late response.
If we are talking about "impact of natural origin" we mean 1) avalanche 2) fall of large masses of snow down а) accomulated on the tent b) in the ravine.
 
Look at the injuries:




factores responsible of this injuries are
- force
- area over  wich it acts
- time taken over with the energy is transferred

1) FORCE
In our case it was  chest trauma caused by blunt object.

Can we characterize snow as a blunt object? No ice there.

2) AREA
We have localized injury with a point of force application "right side of the sternum, distance between 2nd and 5-6th ribs". Additional signs of localizes area are not injured collarbone, sternum, protruding parts of the scapula.


Can snow cause the local damage?

3) TIME
Forensic medical characterictic of a blow - <0,1 sec, compression >0,1 sec
  Can snow dissapier immideatly (<0,1 sec)  from the body?  If can not...
The total impact energy =   energy of primery blow (depends of mass, height in case of snowfall or speed of object in case of avalanche) + weight gravitational force wich depends of mass.
  4 bodies were fully covered by old havy 2,5m plast of snow for months, but it not enough to cause even dislocation of broken ribs or secondary fractures. Lung is not damaged (no pneumothorax).
 What was the mass of the snow, from what height did it fall or what speed did it move for causing this local traum?


Hello again! 

I am not saying the snow itself is what caused the injuries other then a collapse of many tons of snow may have PUSHED him forcefully onto the rockss...  the secondary impact with the rocks could be what physically injured the ribs.

Additionally, do you have any proof or evidence regarding the scapula "fractures", or do we simply trust you? A new discovery of this nature would be thoroughly documented, but yet we have seen nothing. 

Please explain.   Thank you
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2018, 09:02:25 PM
Reply #32
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Vietnamka


Quote
.do you have any proof or evidence regarding the scapula "fractures", or do we simply trust you?
Not me. U should trust (or not)  KP. Also u have to remember about copiraites (I don't publish even schemes of scapula until now). KP is a one of the biggest federal mass media with their own interest (publcations, tv programmers, movie and etc).
Fractures of scapula are not the secret, but not published yet.
Thank you for understanding.

May 15, 2018, 01:58:05 AM
Reply #33
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Quote
.do you have any proof or evidence regarding the scapula "fractures", or do we simply trust you?
Not me. U should trust (or not)  KP. Also u have to remember about copiraites (I don't publish even schemes of scapula until now). KP is a one of the biggest federal mass media with their own interest (publcations, tv programmers, movie and etc).
Fractures of scapula are not the secret, but not published yet.
Thank you for understanding.


Dear Vietnamka - дорогая вьетнамка:

I understand the copyright issue. The news agency "KP" has purchased the right to publish the results that document the broken scapula.

Therefore that news agency has the exclusive right to publish the results. You cannot do it yourself, because you would have been sued because you would have broken their copyright. Luckily we do not have to trust them or not regarding the results, because these results will speak for themselves. I hope we can we be sure that the results with the documentation of the broken scapula will in fact be published.

Your work so far has been extremely valuable.

It is clear that the mechanics of the injury to Zolotarev gives strong indications that snow did not cause the injuries and his death. If it can also be proven that the scapula is broken, it means that the snow theory requires a very unrealistic series of coincidental events to be viable. The injuries documented so far speak against the snow theory. The fall theory has also been excluded.

May 17, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
Reply #34
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Vietnamka


About the scapula
2nd opinion of Eduard Tumanov https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eduard_Tumanov - 2 blows by blunt object with a LIMITED surface (surface of object < than saurface of scapula). Eduard Tumanov is a head of
KP is going to get the 3d opinion. Pictures and schemes will be published after that.

DNA test result has been done by TV, not by KP. This test is not official for many reasons. KP is going to do official test in the Federal Center of Forensic Medical Expertise at the Ministry of Health. Pavel Ivanov agree to do it. https://www.icmp.int/press-releases/russian-forensic-scientists-visit-icmp/
  Let see.


-

May 18, 2018, 05:34:02 AM
Reply #35
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
About the scapula
2nd opinion of Eduard Tumanov https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eduard_Tumanov - 2 blows by blunt object with a LIMITED surface (surface of object < than saurface of scapula). Eduard Tumanov is a head of
KP is going to get the 3d opinion. Pictures and schemes will be published after that.

DNA test result has been done by TV, not by KP. This test is not official for many reasons. KP is going to do official test in the Federal Center of Forensic Medical Expertise at the Ministry of Health. Pavel Ivanov agree to do it. https://www.icmp.int/press-releases/russian-forensic-scientists-visit-icmp/
  Let see.


-


You asked for a second opinion from OUTSIDE of the propaganda machine, and I have it.  You did not like the opinion a TOP independent US forensic pathologists gave, so now I'm expected to keep my mouth shut so you can shop it around looking for a publicity whore to agree with your "findings". 

Why on earth would anyone trust KP or anyone involved with an analysis done for KP? 

If your image of a scapula with lines depicting where these hairline cracks are located is copywrite of KP, then this means you sold them the rights to use it.  It also means you are profiting off of the victims. 

What I see is an attempt to silence the second opinions in which you do not favor, while its shopped around to find ones that do. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 18, 2018, 09:14:58 AM
Reply #36
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Vietnamka


Quote

You asked for a second opinion from OUTSIDE of the propaganda machine, and I have it.  You did not like the opinion a TOP independent US forensic pathologists gave, so now I'm expected to keep my mouth shut so you can shop it around looking for a publicity whore to agree with your "findings". 

Why on earth would anyone trust KP or anyone involved with an analysis done for KP? 

If your image of a scapula with lines depicting where these hairline cracks are located is copywrite of KP, then this means you sold them the rights to use it.  It also means you are profiting off of the victims. 

What I see is an attempt to silence the second opinions in which you do not favor, while its shopped around to find ones that do. 
So sorry, I don't understand your English very well. I hope, I don't understant english, not you.
I asked about Possibility to get the second opinion abroad. And asked it in privet letter. And didn't ask YOU.
 
 
 

May 18, 2018, 10:11:48 AM
Reply #37
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
I asked about Possibility to get the second opinion abroad

One cannot put the toothpaste back into the tube....   Fortunatly, you do not get to decide whether or not a second, third, or 50th opinion is obtained.


Quote
Sergey Nikitin's conclusion is "it was one single impact, Zolotarev was laying on the back at that moment (scapula fractures)"
I don't agree))) I suppose its could be two successive blows. But I'm not expert

You said it.....  not me. 


Quote
Chest  injury is a injury of construction, we a looking for a forensic expert specialized  in this type of trauma assesment for second opinion. 

I have one, but you are not interested unless it fits your "Im not an expert" conclusion. 

 Question:
Why not just release your image showing where the cracks of the scapula are for EVERYONE to have a look at and determine for themselves what is what, and open the door to ALL experts having the ability to make an assessment? 


Quote
We hoped to find anything (the best option could be absence the body in the grave or not his body) for transferring this case under the criminal law regulation and reopen the old case.
But...

I believe your motives are obvious and self evident.  I'm sorry Vietnam, but I do not appreciate the way you are attempting to control the narrative and act as a gate-keeper by selectively omitting information and expert forensic pathologist assessments unless they conform to your agenda/theory.   

I would have to trust the expertise of one of the top leading American forensic pathologist, along with the opinion of Sergey Nikitin as apposed to a pediatrician with alternative motives apparently not based on truth and transparency.   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 11:36:57 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 18, 2018, 02:06:05 PM
Reply #38
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CalzagheChick


And that ladies and gentlemen is what we call integrity....

Here's you to LC, a great rhetoric from the movie "Scent of a Woman." Cheers:

I'm not finished! As I came in here, I heard those words, "cradle of leadership." Well, when the bough breaks, the cradle will fall. And it has fallen here; it has fallen. Makers of men; creators of leaders; be careful what kind of leaders you're producin' here. I don't know if Charlie's silence here today is right or wrong.

I'm not a judge or jury. But I can tell you this: he won't sell anybody out to buy his future!! And that, my friends, is called integrity! That's called courage! Now that's the stuff leaders should be made of. Now I have come to the crossroads in my life. I always knew what the right path was. Without exception, I knew. But I never took it. You know why? It was too damn hard. Now here's Charlie. He's come to the crossroads. He has chosen a path. It's the right path. It's a path made of principle -- that leads to character. Let him continue on his journey.

May 18, 2018, 04:24:48 PM
Reply #39
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Per Inge Oestmoen


About the scapula
2nd opinion of Eduard Tumanov https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eduard_Tumanov - 2 blows by blunt object with a LIMITED surface (surface of object < than saurface of scapula). Eduard Tumanov is a head of
KP is going to get the 3d opinion. Pictures and schemes will be published after that.

DNA test result has been done by TV, not by KP. This test is not official for many reasons. KP is going to do official test in the Federal Center of Forensic Medical Expertise at the Ministry of Health. Pavel Ivanov agree to do it. https://www.icmp.int/press-releases/russian-forensic-scientists-visit-icmp/
  Let see.
-


I see every reason to believe that the damage to Zolotaryov was indeed done with blunt force and that his life was taken by other humans. In particular, if the scapula is broken I cannot see how the injuries described could be the result of any natural forces.

Ever since 1959, the truth of what happened on February 1, 1959 has been withheld from the public. The public has been told that the deaths of the members of the Dyatlov group were due to mistakes made by Dyatlov in combination with a series accidents that are highly improbable when viewed in isolation, and bordering on the impossible when viewed in the full context. It is evident that the governmental authorities wanted and even dictated that official conclusion. We need to put a stop to misinformation and blatant lies, if it is possible.

Our only hope is a full forensic analysis of the skeletons of the victims. The answer lies in the corpses, as was the case in 1959.

I believe that it is important that the full results from the new examination of Zolotaryev's skeleton are now published as soon as possible.

Regardless of who has acquired the copyright to the results and how that copyright was acquired, the copyright holder must publish the results with scientific exactitude. These results must be disclosed fully and completely to the public and to the scientific community.

This is urgent.

May 18, 2018, 05:14:22 PM
Reply #40
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
I agree with much of what you say.

However, the same scandalous behavior of 1959 is alive and well today.  I am afraid you may have already drank the Koolaid though.    excuseme

"broken" scapula......   We are talking about three tiny hairline cracks at locations in which are paper thin and extremely fragile.  The Humerus bone of the arm literally pivots within the socket of the scapula.  Any and all force applied to the shoulder/chest region will be transferred into the scapula.  This isn't rocket science.  If you jump out of a truck and mess up your knee or hip, you wouldn't declare a conspiracy or foul play because your foot is ok.....  would you?   
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 06:15:39 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 18, 2018, 05:48:55 PM
Reply #41
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CalzagheChick


I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off if ANYbody truly believes that this was good work.

There is NO scientific exactitude happening here. I see no less than two BLATANT cases to be made for bias already. And this is just off the top.

I'm not sure what inner workings were done here, but to shroud everything in secrecy and only NOW the truth is starting to leak out in a buried thread of a forum? Yeah, I'd say that stinks to high hell. I'm so disappointed in the people responsible for this "good work."

Nothing was done here to move this case forward. The only accomplishment was to make all of us that truly care about the truth no matter what it may be so long as the VICTIMS and their FAMILIES/DESCENDANTS receive justice that's 60 years past due (I don't mean criminal justice necessarily by the way) look like a bunch of tin foil hat-wearing maniacs obsessing over a frozen case that's a lost cause because even 60 years later we clearly can't get it right!

Again, thank you LC for preserving whatever is left of the integrity of this site.

May 18, 2018, 06:28:06 PM
Reply #42
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Meh....  thanks, but its my moral duty!   

Calzaghe is absolutely dead on here....  Sergey Nikitin was the ONLY forensic pathologist present at the exumation, but yet what he says is being questioned by propaganda tools looking for click-bait or otherwise people believing assertions made by non forensic experts on the basis of 'it fits my agenda'. 

WAKE UP!
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 18, 2018, 09:06:13 PM
Reply #43
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CalzagheChick


Meh....  thanks, but its my moral duty!   

Calzaghe is absolutely dead on here.... Sergey Nikitin was the ONLY forensic pathologist present at the exumation, but yet what he says is being questioned by propaganda tools looking for click-bait or otherwise people believing assertions made by non forensic experts on the basis of 'it fits my agenda'. 

WAKE UP!

It's okay to question results.

I'm completely in line with LC on this. I see absolutely no reason to question Nikitin's findings. He's a certified forensic pathologist. I trust that he knows what he is dealing with as this is his field of study. He didn't graduate kindergarten then take on the title of Forensic Pathologist and everybody just followed along with that.

We have here a person unqualified in forensic pathology speaking on behalf of the exhumation as an "insider" and I see good, passionate people just eating this stuff up while I'm sitting here at midnight in America like, "Really? This is happening? We are letting this happen? Really?"

May 18, 2018, 09:16:48 PM
Reply #44
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Loose}{Cannon

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If this was Merica.....   They would have brought two portable CT scanners and made the download public information.   thumb1

But Noooooooooooooooooooooo
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 18, 2018, 10:34:46 PM
Reply #45
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CalzagheChick


Well it's not America but I don't think that the Russian forensic pathologist did anything wrong here.

I read early on that basically a pediatrician with an enthusiasm for the case just happened to accompany Nikitin to the gravesite for examination and although both noted the fractures in the scapula, Nikitin was able to explain them as far as all other fractures were concerned.

Now much further into this thread you say that you found a second opinion from a forensic pathologist in the US? How in the world is that possible with no photographic evidence for the pathologist to assess? Am I missing something here?

Okay, aside from these top secret files of fractures that exist under copyright, let's press forward: so you have another opinion from another QUALIFIED forensic pathologist that is completely in line with Nikitin's findings am I right?

So far I've got this:

Non-murder camp: 2
Murder camp: 0

Exactly what in the heck did I miss here? What are we so excited about? I have read precisely ZERO new evidence here. Two qualified doctors in the field of forensics say "One impact." But our "insider," a pediatrician & DPI enthusiast says, "Two impacts."

Sorry not sorry, if nobody can see the bias there and how dangerous that is to the overall case then this site is not the beacon of truth I once praised it for. And I'm really glad that the site moderator has the good sense to maintain the integrity of this place--why wouldn't he? This is his hard work! And I'm not in his corner for the sake that he's another American--good grief I don't do national pride thing. I'm in his corner in the absence of any explanation from the site OWNER about all of this, but also because he clearly smelled an agenda and I'm glad he was here to shine the spotlight on it all before it got carried away.

May 19, 2018, 06:30:02 AM
Reply #46
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Per Inge Oestmoen


I agree with much of what you say.

However, the same scandalous behavior of 1959 is alive and well today.  I am afraid you may have already drank the Koolaid though.    excuseme

"broken" scapula......   We are talking about three tiny hairline cracks at locations in which are paper thin and extremely fragile.  The Humerus bone of the arm literally pivots within the socket of the scapula.  Any and all force applied to the shoulder/chest region will be transferred into the scapula.  This isn't rocket science.  If you jump out of a truck and mess up your knee or hip, you wouldn't declare a conspiracy or foul play because your foot is ok.....  would you?


1. We need to see the damaged area, in other words the results must be published. Results that are not published or results that are only partially published only lead to unfounded speculations. The foundation which we all need, requires the findings to be public.

2. The scapula is not a fragile structure. It is very solid. It is the clavicle - the collarbone - which is a comparatively fragile structure. Scapular fractures are relatively rare, and they account for around 1% of all fractures seen in humans. If Zolotaryev's scapula was indeed broken it will be an extremely significant find. Scapular fractures are not at all likely to occur as a result of pressure from snow, and it is not probable that the same impact or impacts that broke the ribs would also broke the scapula. To conclude that Zolotaryev's rib fractures are caused by snow, is a rather rash conclusion which needs to be questioned. Scapular fractures are typically caused either by unusual forces like high falls or very powerful blows. Therefore, if Zolotaryev's scapula was broken it is a strong evidence of something different from a natural accident. An analysis of such a fracture can give valuable information of the direction from which the blow - or blows - came.

3. Even without the scapular fracture, the rib fractures of Zolotaryev indicate that they were caused by blunt trauma.

4. It is very unfortunate that this discussion has developed into a debate around who is to be believed and who has their own agenda. It has even become a theme which expert is to be believed, and that means the whole debate degenerates into the classic fallacy known as "argumentum ad verecundiam." This is what happens when results from an investigation are not published as soon as possible. To stop this unproductive debate, there is only one thing to to: Publish the results, and publish them now.

5. We need to remember that ever since 1959, the government's agenda has been to give the public the message that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was caused by possible errors by Igor Dyatlov and that nothing criminal happened. This is the original official agenda, which needs to be questioned. Instead of a thorough investigation, we got a partial investigation and a gross concealment. Only many decades after the Dyatlov pass tragedy did the severe and lethal injuries of many of the victims become known, because the information was hidden from the public since it would cast serious doubt over the official version. It is only to be expected that people even today are prone to interpreting the available evidence in the light of the original official conclusion. That is why we have seen the emergence of many fantastic theories and even books devoted to scarcely believable scenarios, instead of the criminal investigation that should have taken place in 1959.

6. All this only serves to emphasize the urgent need for all results and forensic evidence (old and new) to become public.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 06:49:08 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

May 19, 2018, 06:38:26 AM
Reply #47
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Per Inge Oestmoen

I'm not a forensic pathologist....  Are you?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 19, 2018, 07:53:50 AM
Reply #48
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Let me state this as clearly as possible.

In no way shape or form does 1 blow detract from the murder possiblity.

In no way shape or form does 2 blows detract from the non murder possiblity. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 19, 2018, 07:55:22 AM
Reply #49
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CalzagheChick


I'm no forensic pathologist either, but Wikipedia certainly gives me a lot to consider regarding scapular fractures.

And I was actually looking up proof to the statistic provided that 1% of all fractures are scapular (it's true. 0.4-1% of all fractures are scapular  bow7  .) The first paragraph on an unreliable source such as Wikipedia suggests that the scapula is quite sturdy and fractures indicate rib damage  twitch7

Say whaaaaaaaa? Rib damage? You don't say...

Furthermore, "Usually, it takes a large amount of energy to fracture the scapula; the force may be indirect but is more often direct.[3] The scapula is fractured as the result of significant blunt trauma, as occurs in vehicle collisions.[4] About three quarters of cases are caused by high-speed car and motorcycle collisions.[4] Falls and blows to the shoulder area can also cause the injury.[4] Crushing injuries (as may occur in railroad or forestry accidents) and sports injuries (as may occur in horseback riding, mountain biking, bmxing or skiing) can also fracture the scapula.[2] Scapular fracture can result from electrical shocks and from seizures: muscles pulling in different directions contract powerfully at the same time.[5] In cardiopulmonary resuscitation, the chest is compressed significantly; scapular fracture may occur as a complication of this technique.[4]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular_fracture

So uhhhhh this tells me... nothing. I can't conclude one way or another. Who'd have thought?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 08:01:30 AM by CalzagheChick »

May 19, 2018, 08:13:24 AM
Reply #50
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Crushing injuries .....

Muscles pulling in different directions contract powerfully at the same time.....

The force may be indirect!
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!