November 11, 2019, 04:51:55 PM
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Author Topic: On A. Kolevatov's Death  (Read 1700 times)

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May 12, 2018, 07:17:57 AM
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Armide


This post is in a similar tone to the "Why Rustem Slobodin Froze First" post by Teddy, and it's about why I'm (almost) convinced that Kolevatov was one of the last, if not the last survivor of the group before succumbing to the cold himself. This post isn't tied to any theory or anything but rather to the order in which the group might have died. Please tell me if I've made any mistakes. It's not my wish to spread misinformation and I'd be happy to go back and edit this if there are any errors. This is also entirely my take on it, take it with a grain of salt. So, without further ado:

Out of all of the hikers, it seems that Kolevatov was the most likely to survive. He wasn't the best dressed but he had the least injuries out of everyone from the ravine. Vozrozhdenny describes that he may have had a broken nose "the nose cartilage is soft when palpated and has unusual mobility." (not necessarily a broken nose), a deformed neck at the level of the thyroid, and some burns on his socks. Wilkins suggests that at one point, Kolevatov was present at the cedar tree, tried to climb the tree, and fell, breaking his nose and injuring his neck. Other theories might argue that this broken nose is the result of a fight. The burns on his socks may have been sustained whilst trying to help Krivonishenko (who was found with quite severe burns) or whilst helping to tend to the fire.

Moreover, he was found quite well clothed, yet some reports mention that his coat was unzipped. I can't confirm this nor deny this since Vozrozhdenny mentions "a zippered jacket" and I don't know if this means that the jacket had a zipper or if it means it was zipped shut. In his pants pockets, he had a box of matches. Being surrounded by wood from the den, he might have been able to start a fire, and after all, he could have even used some of his dead comrades' clothes as tinder, and yet he didn't. Kolevatov didn't take any clothes off of anyone for himself, and yet Zolotaryov was wearing some of Dubinina's, which might lead to believe that this was an act of selflessness on Kolevatov's part. Zolotaryov was also not wearing any of Kolevatov's clothes, which leads me to believe that they were both alive around the same time (or so they thought). This also suggests that Dubinina was the first of the Ravine 4 to die.

So now, what might have happened? Something happened nearby the ravine that caused Zolotaryov, Dubinina, and Thibeaux-Brignolles to be so severely injured, judging by the similar nature of their injuries. What caused this is a whole other discussion, and this is where different theories branch off. Either way Kolevatov may have not been there at that time of the incident since he did not sustain similar injuries, but found the agonal bodies of his friends and desperately tried to save them. Dubinina was (seemingly) the most severely injured and perhaps did not respond to Kolevatov when he tried to move her or speak to her, leading him to believe that she was already long gone. Zolotaryov, on the other hand, remained responsive which spurred on Kolevatov to help him. He took items of clothing off of Dubinina and onto Zolotaryov, who he judged needed them most at the time. In the meanwhile, Thibeaux might have still been alive, since they had not stripped his body.

After some time, Thibeaux-Brignolles falls to the ground, dead or unconscious. Kolevatov, who is well dressed but still not appropriately dressed for the weather outside, decides that if he leaves Zolotaryov to regain the cedar or the tent to fetch some firewood to go with his matches, Zolotaryov will die. After all, it's a long walk and Kolevatov is cold enough as is, the walk might take even longer than normal. At this point, Krivonishenko and Doroshenko have already passed (judging by how Dubinina tore off some of their clothes) but Kolevatov might be under the illusion that Dyatlov and Kolmogorova are still alive and have reached the tent. So, he patiently awaits their return and in a last attempt to warm up Zolotaryov, he unbuttons his jacket and presses himself against him chest-to-back to maximize body contact and use his body heat to keep him alive. He may have also thought that Thibeaux-Brignolles was still alive, and being better dressed than him or Zolotaryov, did not need his assistance, explaining why he would not have taken clothes off of his corpse.

Kolevatov's cause of death was ruled as the result of hypothermia, so he may have lay there holding Zolotaryov long after Zolotayov himself died, but was unable to accept this fact, and was instead waiting for Dyatlov and Kolmogorova to return with the help he needed to treat Zolotaryov. Kolevatov didn't break off to make a fire or keep himself alive on his own because he was convinced that he was saving Zolotaryov and that he wasn't the last survivor. So, he assessed the situation and determined he had better stay close to Zolotaryov and wait for the others, unaware that his own frostbite had settled in. They had a long day the day before the night of incident, and Kolevatov might have succumbed to exhaustion and fell asleep before the cold took him.

Those are my thoughts on the whole thing, but there's still one detail that irks me about the whole "Kolevatov died last" theory, and that is why Kolevatov wouldn't have stripped clothes off of Thibeaux-Brignolles if he were truly the last one alive. It just goes to show that this theory has a couple of inconsistencies that I can't explain. But I still think that Thibeaux-Brignolles may have died before Kolevatov since he also did not take clothes from the latter or from Zolotaryov. Sure, he was well dressed, but he could have taken the matches off of Kolevatov or at least tried to loot his corpse to try and survive on his own.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 03:51:48 AM by Armide »

May 12, 2018, 02:24:47 PM
Reply #1
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Per Inge Oestmoen


More thoughts on the death of Kolevatov:

We might recall what the autopsy report revealed. Kolevatov did not only have a damaged nose and a damaged neck, but a significant wound behind his ear. In addition he had an injury of his left knee.

If we start by hypothezing that Kolevatov fell from a tree we must then assume that when Kolevatov fell from the tree, he received both a broken nose on the front of his face and a serious wound behind his ear in the fall in addition to an unspecified damage to his neck. Already here something seems just a bit strange. 

To list Kolevatov's injuries:

"- broken nose
- open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm
- deformed neck
- diffuse bleeding in the underlying tissues of the left knee (not shown on diagram)"

One may argue that everything is possible, but this combination of injuries is different from what we would expect from a fall. In particular, the wound behind the ear is difficult to explain that way.

An important factor here is that we know that there came orders from governmental authority that the case must be closed as soon as possible, and that it must be announced that the whole incident was an accident.

The comments on this site are these:

"This autopsy had similar strange silence about the injuries of the victim. Broken nose, open wound behind the ear and deformed neck might be the result of a fight and be cause of death. On the other hand it could have been caused by natural elements since the body was exposed to nature for three whole months. Yet the doctor ignores this matter and doesn't try to explain the reason for these strange injuries. We should probably add that snapped neck and blow behind the ear is a common sign of killing performed by special forces. However we can't be sure about this since the autopsy report didn't specify any more details about the body. We are left guessing on the nature and origin of these injuries."

The question must be posed: Why did the doctor ignore the matter?

Kolevatov's neck was deformed. Then how exactly was it deformed? Deformation of the neck can indicate a potentially lethal injury to the vertebral column, or it can mean that the larynx and/or the windpipe has been impacted or crushed. Either way, we are talking about exceedingly grave damage. Why did the doctor not analyze such an injury in detail?

If the neck of a person is sufficiently damaged to be judged deformed, that person is in a very grave condition. That person will likely be incapacitated and the risk of paralysis and even death is very high. Did that injury paralyze and perhaps cause his death? Since the doctor avoided to properly examine the injury, there is no way to tell. But it must be considered highly significant that the investigators failed to analyze such a very serious injury to Kolevatov.

There is a combination of factors here, which may indicate that Kolevatov's death was probably not due to mere hypothermia.

It is reasonably assumed that Kolevatov, Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Zolotaryov were the last to die. Dubinina and Zoloraryov suffered massive trauma to their bodies, and Thibeaux-Brignolle had "multiple fractures to the temporal bone, with extensions to the frontal and sphenoid bones," in addition to a "bruise on the upper lip on the left side" and "hemorrhage on the lower forearm."

Two of the four last victims had massive chest damage, whereas Thibeaux-Brignolle had a crushed skull, and Kolevatov had his "deformed neck."

What does it all indicate?

- There was no avalanche in the area, neither at the tent area nor in the forest area where the four last were found.   

- There is no indication that there had been an explosion of any kind at the immediate spot where the four last were found.

- The injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov could not be caused by pressure from snow since there was no such heavy mass of snow and no hard ice that could have caused the damage.

- The combination of injuries seen in Kolevatov - broken nose, deformed neck and a wound behind the ear - could not possibly be caused by snow. Moreover, if these injuries were the result of a fall it would be a truly remarkable fall, if a broken nose and a deep lesion behind the ear was caused by it in addition to a damage to the neck. From my own training in jiu jitsu, I can confirm that blows to the larynx and windpipe is a very dangerous and effective technique which is typically used when the intention is very evil. In my understanding it is much more likely that Kolevatov was at the receiving end of such a blow, than having gotten his combination of trauma from a fall - from a tree or otherwise.

- The crushed skull of Thibeaux-Brignolle could not have been caused by snow, and the possibility that he may have fallen and damaged himself is rather slim to say the least.

- There is no indication that it was any kind of natural disaster that occurred near the ravine.

Why did Kolevatov not take clothes from Thibeaux-Brignolles if he was the last survivor, or alternatively why did the latter not take clothes from the former?

It is difficult to imagine someone taking on clothes if one is physically overpowered and manhandled by attackers, and I see every reason to consider the possibility that such was the situation. If it was indeed so, the exchanges of clothing that had taken place earlier were done after the nine students were forced out from their tent and before the attackers followed them and hunted them down - after they realized that the cold did not kill their victims as fast as they had expected. After a forceful killing of the last four, their bodies were placed into the ravine after the attacking group had accomplished their grisly mission. The attackers may have calculated that the public would interpret the tragedy as an accident. Firearms and knives leave unmistakable marks when used, therefore the attackers were careful not to use them.

The fact that the victims had different types of injury and mutilations, indicates that there was no uniform, single event that took their life. The whole pattern is most of all indicative of a determined assault from other humans, and that the assailants were very careful to avoid any obvious proof of murder. That would be the reason why none of the nine were shot or stabbed - but Igor Dyatlov had a mysterious wound that could be interpreted as the result of him having tried to grab a knife or a similar cutting/stabbing instrument.

May 12, 2018, 07:53:17 PM
Reply #2
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Wait wait...   

Quote
If we start by hypothezing that Kolevatov fell from a tree we must then assume that when Kolevatov fell from the tree, he received both a broken nose on the front of his face and a serious wound behind his ear in the fall in addition to an unspecified damage to his neck. Already here something seems just a bit strange. 

- broken nose
- open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm
- deformed neck
- diffuse bleeding in the underlying tissues of the left knee (not shown on diagram

Lets quote the exact terminology from the autopsy report.

"The bridge of the nose is straight; the nose cartilage is soft when palpated and has unusual mobility. The base of the nose is flattened with the nostrils compressed."


The bridge is the bone... the bone was straight. Absolutely nothing mentioned about a broken bone.  The cartilage was soft with mobility.....  Well what the heck else one ya expect with a three month rotten corps pulled out of running water?     Broken nose. DEBUNKED


There is a wound of undetermined shape measuring 3 x 1.5 x 0.5 cm behind the right ear in the area of the mastoid process that penetrates into the mastoid process.

With the lacking of better description and details here.... (they cant even come up with a shape), does this really sound like a 'grave' wound?   Or is it superficial?


"The neck is long and thin, and deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage."

This CLEARLY states DEFORMED IN THE THYROID CARTILAGE.  Cartilage deformed.  Deformed neck DEBUNKED!


On the inner surface of the left knee there is diffuse bleeding into the underlying tissue.

Look up difuse bleeding.....  I don't think this killed the boy. 




Quote
this combination of injuries is different from what we would expect from a fall.

Is it?   What kind of a fall?  Are we talking off a cliff,  tripping on rocks, or out of a tree?  Is it possible that all three amd possibly more can be at play? 



Quote
Deformation of the neck can indicate a potentially lethal injury to the vertebral column, or it can mean that the larynx and/or the windpipe has been impacted or crushed. Either way, we are talking about exceedingly grave damage

Unless of course its all post mortem.    whist1.  Remember.... rotten corps lying on rocks... in water...for three months!


Quote
The injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov could not be caused by pressure from snow since there was no such heavy mass of snow and no hard ice that could have caused the damage.

May I beg to ask how you know this?     Have you seeeeeen the pictures I have posted? 

Quote
The combination of injuries seen in Kolevatov - broken nose, deformed neck and a wound behind the ear - could not possibly be caused by snow. Moreover, if these injuries were the result of a fall it would be a truly remarkable fall, if a broken nose and a deep lesion behind the ear was caused by it in addition to a damage to the neck

Ah....   this has mostly been picked apart in my replies above.  BUT, I find it interesting that you wrap all these things into one solitary event as if thats the 'only' explanation.   


Don't get me wrong, you have a convincing way of stating your case.  I just think we should keep it real.   thumb1
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2018, 05:46:18 AM
Reply #3
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Armide



The bridge is the bone... the bone was straight. Absolutely nothing mentioned about a broken bone.  The cartilage was soft with mobility.....  Well what the heck else one ya expect with a three month rotten corps pulled out of running water?     Broken nose. DEBUNKED


Fixed the OP to not mention a broken nose  thumb1

Per, I personally really enjoy reading your posts because you clearly argument your case really well, but there are a few inconsistencies I have noted.

Firstly, I believe the knee injury was sustained before the night of the accident. If I'm not mistaken "diffuse bleeding under the tissue" simply means a bruise. It's a part of the body that's very easy to bruise even from a normal hike or even perhaps, let's say, an unfortunate encounter with the stairs of the UPI.  grin1 I think it also mentions that there may have been apiece of gauze around it that might've slipped at some point. I just don't think this injury in particular would have killed Kolevatov.

As for the deformed neck, I originally believed that an attacker had actually manually snapped his neck in order to "kill off" the Ravine 4 like you mentioned, but the more I read about this sort of injury, the more I have reason to believe that this is not the case. If Kolevatov's neck injury had been enough to kill him, Vozrozhdenny would have mentioned it without fail. He may be an unreliable source, but I don't think he couldn't neglected something like that. I obviously don't know much about medicine and I'll continue to mention that till the day I die, but logically I don't think he had a severe neck injury or else we would have known about it.

For all we know, a "deformed neck" could have been caused by a simple wry neck he might have sustained even before the trek. After doing a bit of Googling a "deformed neck" doesn't necessarily sound like a fatal injury in any way. Don't get me wrong, it can be, but in this case it's very possible that it would have been a non-fatal injury.

I'm not completely against all of your points though, I do agree that Thibeaux-Brignolles or Kolevatov would, or rather should, have logically taken clothes off of each other's corpses had they died at different times. I also do agree that there might have been some external factors that prevented them from doing so. I'm not particularly fond of just one theory in particular, so I try to stay as vague as possible.

May 13, 2018, 06:36:04 AM
Reply #4
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Wait wait...   

Quote
If we start by hypothezing that Kolevatov fell from a tree we must then assume that when Kolevatov fell from the tree, he received both a broken nose on the front of his face and a serious wound behind his ear in the fall in addition to an unspecified damage to his neck. Already here something seems just a bit strange. 

- broken nose
- open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm
- deformed neck
- diffuse bleeding in the underlying tissues of the left knee (not shown on diagram

Lets quote the exact terminology from the autopsy report.

"The bridge of the nose is straight; the nose cartilage is soft when palpated and has unusual mobility. The base of the nose is flattened with the nostrils compressed."


The bridge is the bone... the bone was straight. Absolutely nothing mentioned about a broken bone.  The cartilage was soft with mobility.....  Well what the heck else one ya expect with a three month rotten corps pulled out of running water?     Broken nose. DEBUNKED


There is a wound of undetermined shape measuring 3 x 1.5 x 0.5 cm behind the right ear in the area of the mastoid process that penetrates into the mastoid process.

With the lacking of better description and details here.... (they cant even come up with a shape), does this really sound like a 'grave' wound?   Or is it superficial?


"The neck is long and thin, and deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage."

This CLEARLY states DEFORMED IN THE THYROID CARTILAGE.  Cartilage deformed.  Deformed neck DEBUNKED!

On the inner surface of the left knee there is diffuse bleeding into the underlying tissue.

Look up difuse bleeding.....  I don't think this killed the boy. 

Quote
this combination of injuries is different from what we would expect from a fall.

Is it?   What kind of a fall?  Are we talking off a cliff,  tripping on rocks, or out of a tree?  Is it possible that all three amd possibly more can be at play? 

Quote
Deformation of the neck can indicate a potentially lethal injury to the vertebral column, or it can mean that the larynx and/or the windpipe has been impacted or crushed. Either way, we are talking about exceedingly grave damage

Unless of course its all post mortem.    whist1.  Remember.... rotten corps lying on rocks... in water...for three months!

Quote
The injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov could not be caused by pressure from snow since there was no such heavy mass of snow and no hard ice that could have caused the damage.

May I beg to ask how you know this?     Have you seeeeeen the pictures I have posted? 

Quote
The combination of injuries seen in Kolevatov - broken nose, deformed neck and a wound behind the ear - could not possibly be caused by snow. Moreover, if these injuries were the result of a fall it would be a truly remarkable fall, if a broken nose and a deep lesion behind the ear was caused by it in addition to a damage to the neck

Ah....   this has mostly been picked apart in my replies above.  BUT, I find it interesting that you wrap all these things into one solitary event as if thats the 'only' explanation.   

Don't get me wrong, you have a convincing way of stating your case.  I just think we should keep it real.   thumb1


(I keep the above only to maintain the context for new readers)

1. After having listed his injuries, I specifically pointed to the first three; since the bruise is not conclusive of anything. I wrote this:

"If we start by hypothezing that Kolevatov fell from a tree we must then assume that when Kolevatov fell from the tree, he received both a broken nose on the front of his face and a serious wound behind his ear in the fall in addition to an unspecified damage to his neck. Already here something seems just a bit strange."

That reasoning stands to reason as far as I can see. It is exceedingly unlikely that the three injuries singled out in the above were the result of any kind of fall.

2. Further; and considering the neck injury, being aware that a "deformed neck" can mean either damage to the vertebrae or to the cartilaginous structures in the larynx/and or the windpipe i wrote:

"Deformation of the neck can indicate a potentially lethal injury to the vertebral column, or it can mean that the larynx and/or the windpipe has been impacted or crushed. Either way, we are talking about exceedingly grave damage."

Thus, I consider both possibilities in order to illustrate that these kinds of injury can potentially cause death. That is important, and then we may ponder over the likelihood of a person receiving such an injury in addition to a lesion behind the ear and damage to the cartilage of the nose - the cartilage will most often break before the bone does. Also, I have reason to view it as rather improbable that the evident damage to Kolevatov's laryngeal area was something that happened after death - this is far from the most exposed part of our anatomy.

3. The snow. I wrote: "The injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov could not be caused by pressure from snow since there was no such heavy mass of snow and no hard ice that could have caused the damage."

To Loose}{Cannon: I have seen your post from May 07. However, we are talking about the precise area where the four bodies were found, and we also must view the event in the light of the recent exhumation of Zolotaryev. Moreover, there were three more who died at the same spot. If there had been such a heavy mass of snow and ice that it had crushed the rib cages of Zolotaryov all four would have received similar injuries. But that could not have been the case, for several reasons:

First, it turns out that the damage to Zolotaryov's chest was inconsistent with the snow theory.

Second, if a large heavy mass of snow and ice had been responsible for the death of the last four they would all have had similar injuries. But Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle had very different injuries from those of Dubinina and Zolotaryov, so we may safely conclude that what happened was not a single uniform event like an avalanche or a fall. Lastly; All of the last four victims were close together. There is every indication that they died on the very same spot. Since their injuries still were different, it indicates that the ultimate cause of death was something imposed upon them individually at the spot. That is, something else than a "natural" or "accidental" cause.

And I fully agree that the bruise on Kolevatov's knee was not fatal :-) But a trauma to the larynx area can be:

"Laryngeal injuries secondary to manual strangulation are seen more often by the forensic pathologist than by the otolaryngologist. Forces sufficient to cause thyroid and cricoid cartilage fractures are usually sufficient to cause acute asphyxia and death. However, due to the static nature of the compressive forces applied in strangulation, fractures of the cartilaginous framework may occur without obvious mucosal disruption or submucosal hematoma formation. If the victim survives the initial assault and the injuries go unrecognized and untreated, delayed life-threatening airway obstruction of long-term vocal dysfunction may result. Computed tomography seems to be an excellent noninvasive technique to evaluate and verify cartilaginous laryngeal fractures and soft-tissue injury. Recognition of the potential for such injuries is the key to management and treatment."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6847488

Thus, the deformation of Kolevatov's thyroid cartilage was highly significant.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 07:30:51 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

May 13, 2018, 07:17:52 AM
Reply #5
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



Per, I personally really enjoy reading your posts because you clearly argument your case really well, but there are a few inconsistencies I have noted.

Firstly, I believe the knee injury was sustained before the night of the accident. If I'm not mistaken "diffuse bleeding under the tissue" simply means a bruise. It's a part of the body that's very easy to bruise even from a normal hike or even perhaps, let's say, an unfortunate encounter with the stairs of the UPI.  grin1 I think it also mentions that there may have been apiece of gauze around it that might've slipped at some point. I just don't think this injury in particular would have killed Kolevatov.

As for the deformed neck, I originally believed that an attacker had actually manually snapped his neck in order to "kill off" the Ravine 4 like you mentioned, but the more I read about this sort of injury, the more I have reason to believe that this is not the case. If Kolevatov's neck injury had been enough to kill him, Vozrozhdenny would have mentioned it without fail. He may be an unreliable source, but I don't think he couldn't neglected something like that. I obviously don't know much about medicine and I'll continue to mention that till the day I die, but logically I don't think he had a severe neck injury or else we would have known about it.

For all we know, a "deformed neck" could have been caused by a simple wry neck he might have sustained even before the trek. After doing a bit of Googling a "deformed neck" doesn't necessarily sound like a fatal injury in any way. Don't get me wrong, it can be, but in this case it's very possible that it would have been a non-fatal injury.

I'm not completely against all of your points though, I do agree that Thibeaux-Brignolles or Kolevatov would, or rather should, have logically taken clothes off of each other's corpses had they died at different times. I also do agree that there might have been some external factors that prevented them from doing so. I'm not particularly fond of just one theory in particular, so I try to stay as vague as possible.


1. I agree completely with the assessment of the bruise on Kolevatov's knee. I included it because it was on the list of his injuries, but it is neither conclusive of anything nor at all serious in any way. It could hardly even cause any inconveniences when moving about, it was a trifling bruise and nothing more than that.

2. Kolevatov could not possibly have gone with this group if he had had this damage before the trip. A deformed neck is a very serious condition when cartilage in the larynx and thyroid gland area is damaged. The cartilage of these structures are prone to damage if a victim of an attack receives a hard blow to the throat area. We know that there was such a damage. Although there is no way to prove the exact details of how dis injury was made, it is very unlikely that such a localized injury was caused by decomposition and lying in snow and water. The injury definitely does not look like something that Kolevatov had before the the trek - broken cartilage in the throat area is not a trifling injury. Laryngeal traumas are potentially lethal, and a blow to these sensitive areas will paralyze the victim.

I see the need to point out that Kolevatov's deformation of the thyroid area was truly serious:

"Laryngeal injuries secondary to manual strangulation are seen more often by the forensic pathologist than by the otolaryngologist. Forces sufficient to cause thyroid and cricoid cartilage fractures are usually sufficient to cause acute asphyxia and death. However, due to the static nature of the compressive forces applied in strangulation, fractures of the cartilaginous framework may occur without obvious mucosal disruption or submucosal hematoma formation. If the victim survives the initial assault and the injuries go unrecognized and untreated, delayed life-threatening airway obstruction of long-term vocal dysfunction may result. Computed tomography seems to be an excellent noninvasive technique to evaluate and verify cartilaginous laryngeal fractures and soft-tissue injury. Recognition of the potential for such injuries is the key to management and treatment."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6847488

And it was this kind of injury Kolevatov had!

3. it is a fact that the leaders of the investigation were instructed to close the case with the conclusion that it was all a result of an accident, and for that reason there was never a proper analysis of all the forensic evidence. Vozrozhdenny and the others were under heavy pressure - the authorities wanted the conclusion that the Dyatlov pass incident was an unfortunate accident. Vozrozhdenny registered the injury, but failed to elaborate on how serious it was.

May 13, 2018, 07:52:30 AM
Reply #6
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Armide


Hmm, that's quite interesting. I must agree with you that if he had injured his throat cartilage that the injury must have been fatal. I know I am playing devil's advocate whilst saying this, but after all this is what keeps the conversation going.

Would Vozrozhdenny not have noticed any bruises if Kolevatov would have been strangled? Even if something had been pushed down onto his throat, for example a baton, should we not be seeing any bruises?

On top of that, to quote the exact report "The neck is long and thin, and deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage. The thorax is rectangular in shape." Vozrozhdenny clearly says that the neck is deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage, but does not mention any damage to the thyroid cartilage. A 'deformation' at the area of the thyroid does not necessarily equate to damage to the underlying cartilage. Obviously Vozrozhdenny was very vague with his wording, but it's possible that he may have just meant that the neck is bent just under the jawline.

I'll admit that I do think that his neck injury may have been caused by some type of trauma that would have happened on that fateful night, but I do have reason to believe that this would not have killed him. If we look at the position in which he died, he had one arm wrapped around Zolotaryov and was pressed against his back. I think that he would have done this to keep Zolotaryov warm, it's textbook behaviour when trying to keep someone warm. Maybe this wasn't the case and the two men were embracing for whatever other reason, perhaps seeking solace in each other in their final moments, but still, the position suggests a conscious decision in my opinion.

If Kolevatov was killed by his injuries as you said, then I imagine you also believe that Zolotaryov was killed by attackers. So, let's imagine the two possible scenarios:

1. Kolevatov dies first of his injuries (by strangulation or otherwise) inflicted by his attackers and collapses to the ground dead. Zolotaryov is still alive. Why would Zolotaryov's reaction be to little-spoon press his back against a dead man's body and fling his arm over himself? It doesn't really add up.
2. Zolotaryov dies first of his chest injuries, again collapsing to the ground. Maybe Kolevatov cuddles up to him to keep him warm of whatever. Has he already sustained his neck injury? Has he just been strangled but then decides to stay close to Zolotaryov? Or is he strangled whilst in this position?

Let's admit that Kolevatov was strangled and/or overpowered. He gets away from his attackers. Why would they not finish the job? Why would they half-strangle him and then decide to just leave him there if they were able to overpower him the first time? I guess it depends on how long he would have survived if such an injury truly was fatal, but unfortunately I'm afraid that that's beyond my area of expertise.

As for Vozrozhdenny, I doubt that we'll ever know what fuelled him to be so imprecise. Let's just not forget that at the time surgeons received better pay for conducting autopsies than they did performing surgeries on the living. It may have been politically motivated or been the effect of a long week or too small of a pay check. Also, none of us really know what autopsy reports looked like in 1950's RSFSR, for all we know he may have done the bare minimum of what was required at the time, satisfying the investigators.

May 13, 2018, 08:11:40 AM
Reply #7
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Loose}{Cannon

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All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2018, 10:31:31 AM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Hmm, that's quite interesting. I must agree with you that if he had injured his throat cartilage that the injury must have been fatal. I know I am playing devil's advocate whilst saying this, but after all this is what keeps the conversation going.

Would Vozrozhdenny not have noticed any bruises if Kolevatov would have been strangled? Even if something had been pushed down onto his throat, for example a baton, should we not be seeing any bruises?

On top of that, to quote the exact report "The neck is long and thin, and deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage. The thorax is rectangular in shape." Vozrozhdenny clearly says that the neck is deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage, but does not mention any damage to the thyroid cartilage. A 'deformation' at the area of the thyroid does not necessarily equate to damage to the underlying cartilage. Obviously Vozrozhdenny was very vague with his wording, but it's possible that he may have just meant that the neck is bent just under the jawline.

I'll admit that I do think that his neck injury may have been caused by some type of trauma that would have happened on that fateful night, but I do have reason to believe that this would not have killed him. If we look at the position in which he died, he had one arm wrapped around Zolotaryov and was pressed against his back. I think that he would have done this to keep Zolotaryov warm, it's textbook behaviour when trying to keep someone warm. Maybe this wasn't the case and the two men were embracing for whatever other reason, perhaps seeking solace in each other in their final moments, but still, the position suggests a conscious decision in my opinion.

If Kolevatov was killed by his injuries as you said, then I imagine you also believe that Zolotaryov was killed by attackers. So, let's imagine the two possible scenarios:

1. Kolevatov dies first of his injuries (by strangulation or otherwise) inflicted by his attackers and collapses to the ground dead. Zolotaryov is still alive. Why would Zolotaryov's reaction be to little-spoon press his back against a dead man's body and fling his arm over himself? It doesn't really add up.
2. Zolotaryov dies first of his chest injuries, again collapsing to the ground. Maybe Kolevatov cuddles up to him to keep him warm of whatever. Has he already sustained his neck injury? Has he just been strangled but then decides to stay close to Zolotaryov? Or is he strangled whilst in this position?

Let's admit that Kolevatov was strangled and/or overpowered. He gets away from his attackers. Why would they not finish the job? Why would they half-strangle him and then decide to just leave him there if they were able to overpower him the first time? I guess it depends on how long he would have survived if such an injury truly was fatal, but unfortunately I'm afraid that that's beyond my area of expertise.

As for Vozrozhdenny, I doubt that we'll ever know what fuelled him to be so imprecise. Let's just not forget that at the time surgeons received better pay for conducting autopsies than they did performing surgeries on the living. It may have been politically motivated or been the effect of a long week or too small of a pay check. Also, none of us really know what autopsy reports looked like in 1950's RSFSR, for all we know he may have done the bare minimum of what was required at the time, satisfying the investigators.


1. An injury to the laryngeal structures like Kolevatov's is not necessarily fatal, but it can be. We cannot possibly know whether or not this particular injury killed him. it is a possibility, but we cannot know. The relevant tissue is long gone, and because of the incompleteness of the autopsy report there is no way to know whether this injury caused death.

2. There were many injuries to the victims that were consistent with a human attack, not only Kolevatov's. Remember, the investigators were instructed to state that the Dyatlov group died from hypothermia. This is evidently not the case, yet that was the conclusion when the case was closed. From these facts, I personally do not believe Vozrozhdenny could ever state it openly if he did find any clear signs of murder like marks that hinted at strangulation.

3. The autopsy report at least goes so far as to say "deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage." I cannot see how there could be any kind of deformation, unless the cartilage was damaged. If the neck was just bent when Kolevatov was found, there would be no talk of deformation - which is something very different from a bend in the neck. 

4. The two men were found lying as though they were embracing each other. The text reads: "The bodies of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were embraced breast-to-back, as if Kolevatov was protecting or trying to warm up Zolotaryov." But was it really so?

Let us have a look at the picture:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Kolevatov-Zolotoryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg

I can certainly see how the scene could be interpreted to show that Kolevatov tried to protect Zolotaryov. The question is whether that was what actually happened, or if the two men became physically entangled in an embrace when they died together. It is possible that after the four last victims were dead the killers threw the bodies into the ravine - and Kolevatov  Zolotaryov became entangled in death. Lastly, it is also fully possible that Kolevatov did indeed embrace Zolotaryov in the last moment of their lives after both having been mortally wounded by the attackers - who might even have stood there and waited for them to perish. That situation could very likely have triggered an impulse to embrace your friend. It is known that in war scenarios where people are killed they often seek each other for comfort, even in their very last seconds. There is no way to know how it actually happened. I only point out that the embrace of Kolevatov and Zolotaryev does not tell us that they were alone and that there had been no attackers. 

5. Armide wrote: "As for Vozrozhdenny, I doubt that we'll ever know what fuelled him to be so imprecise. Let's just not forget that at the time surgeons received better pay for conducting autopsies than they did performing surgeries on the living. It may have been politically motivated or been the effect of a long week or too small of a pay check. Also, none of us really know what autopsy reports looked like in 1950's RSFSR, for all we know he may have done the bare minimum of what was required at the time, satisfying the investigators."

Comment: I can only say that this is very true, and I agree without reservation. If is impossible to know with certainty what caused the various imprecise and/or misleading statements, omissions and glossing over of unmistakable signs of foul play.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 10:36:00 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

May 13, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Reply #9
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Loose}{Cannon

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Quote
deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage."

This does not mean its an injury.


Quote
We cannot possibly know whether or not this particular injury killed him.

But yet you insist that it is. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2018, 12:40:24 PM
Reply #10
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Quote
deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage."

This does not mean its an injury.

Quote
We cannot possibly know whether or not this particular injury killed him.

But yet you insist that it is.
 

- If there was a damage to the laryngeal area with deformation, it is by definition an injury. By the way, none of the other corpses showed a similar damage to the throat area.

- I say that we cannot know whether or not that injury killed him. That is the reality.

May 13, 2018, 01:04:41 PM
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Armide


It is possible that the bodies were thrown into the ravine after the hikers were killed, yes. I just don't mention that sort of theory in this thread because we could fall into a whole other rabbit hole. I don't think it's impossible, I just find it unlikely. If the attackers did murder them somewhere and then tossed their corpses in the ravine, why? Dead people are unexpectedly heavily, and considering that most of the victims were tall and muscular, they would have only been more massive and more of a hassle to carry. It would just be so tiring to do.

Furthermore, if the murderers did not want it to look like a murder and they were willing to drag the corpses around, why not just get rid of them? Cut them up, spread the body parts, no one may ever hear from them. After all, thousands of hikers have gone missing as if they had vanished from the face of the Earth, such a scenario would not be so uncommon. Especially if the murders were politically motivated– why not just make them disappear? The USSR clearly had the power to do so. Why go through the hassle of moving them around? On top of that, I'm sure they could've thought of better ways to make the whole ordeal look like more of an accident.

As for Kolevatov's position in death, I am simply using Occam's razor to try and find the most logical solution. In this case, if two men are found embracing and pressed against each other whilst outside in the bitter cold, too scarcely dressed to move around and find shelter, one can assume that this would be a standard procedure in saving the other. The other theory that you have mentioned, however, is very plausible as well: that both of them knew they were going to die and that they sought comfort in one another, as its been seen before in other similar situations.

Other than that, I do agree with you that the nature of the injuries is very odd and specific, I can't explain by myself how Kolevatov would have sustained the injury to his head or the one on his neck.

May 13, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Reply #12
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Per Inge Oestmoen


It is possible that the bodies were thrown into the ravine after the hikers were killed, yes. I just don't mention that sort of theory in this thread because we could fall into a whole other rabbit hole. I don't think it's impossible, I just find it unlikely. If the attackers did murder them somewhere and then tossed their corpses in the ravine, why? Dead people are unexpectedly heavily, and considering that most of the victims were tall and muscular, they would have only been more massive and more of a hassle to carry. It would just be so tiring to do.

Furthermore, if the murderers did not want it to look like a murder and they were willing to drag the corpses around, why not just get rid of them? Cut them up, spread the body parts, no one may ever hear from them. After all, thousands of hikers have gone missing as if they had vanished from the face of the Earth, such a scenario would not be so uncommon. Especially if the murders were politically motivated– why not just make them disappear? The USSR clearly had the power to do so. Why go through the hassle of moving them around? On top of that, I'm sure they could've thought of better ways to make the whole ordeal look like more of an accident.

As for Kolevatov's position in death, I am simply using Occam's razor to try and find the most logical solution. In this case, if two men are found embracing and pressed against each other whilst outside in the bitter cold, too scarcely dressed to move around and find shelter, one can assume that this would be a standard procedure in saving the other. The other theory that you have mentioned, however, is very plausible as well: that both of them knew they were going to die and that they sought comfort in one another, as its been seen before in other similar situations.

Other than that, I do agree with you that the nature of the injuries is very odd and specific, I can't explain by myself how Kolevatov would have sustained the injury to his head or the one on his neck.


Just to follow up the question of why the four last victims were found in the ravine:

We do not know for sure how it all happened, but if the killers intended to camouflage their act and make it seem like an accident it is thinkable that they judged that by placing them in the ravine together it would look more convincing than if the bodies had been spread out in the area - and particularly when these four last victims had serious injuries. Their deaths would seem less likely to have had a "natural" cause if the bodies had been spread. As it was now, superficially it looked like the four died after a fall in the ravine as a single lethal event that could be blamed for the violent deaths. If the attackers reasoned that way, subsequent discussion has vindicated their strategy.

The question of why the killers did not simply make the bodies disappear, for example by shooting them and just get rid of them: Here it is very possible that the murderers calculated that by leaving the corpses the way they did, it would be easier to convince the public that it had all been a mere series of accidents. If the nine hikers had disappeared without trace there would still have been no proof of murder, and there would have been much speculation. But it could have been more obvious to more people that the nine perished as a result of homicide, because people do not disappear unless something causes the disappearance. That "something" would certainly have been understood by many as human killers. The way it was done now, the bodies were found without definite proof of murder. There were no bullet wounds, for example. Without such definite proof the murderers managed to make it seem less obvious what actually happened.

Again and assuming that this scenario is what actually materialized, the killers chose what in fact was a brilliant strategy.

It also merits mention that criminal history is replete with examples of "accidents," "suicides," "heart attacks" and other "natural" deaths that were in actual fact intelligent murder. So it should not be taken for granted that it would have been a better solution for the murderers to just make the nine students disappear.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 02:24:49 PM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

November 15, 2018, 07:05:20 AM
Reply #13
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Teddy

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  • Broken nose on the site is replaced with the whole shabang from the autopsy report
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« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 07:09:47 AM by Teddy »