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Author Topic: Events before the incident  (Read 1920 times)

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October 22, 2018, 01:54:49 PM
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sarapuk

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Events before the incident
All related information prior to, and leading up to the incident.

Well one potential event comes to mind and that is the potential event that caused the group to go up towards the mountain as opposed to around it through the forest. By all accounts the weather was very bad and yet the group decided to go onto an exposed mountain side and pitch the Tent. Surely it would have been better to pitch the Tent near the tree line or in the forest.
DB

October 23, 2018, 09:22:43 AM
Reply #1
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WAB


Events before the incident
All related information prior to, and leading up to the incident.

Prior of beginning incident it was not revealed any especial events. The unique source of such events is all diaries of Dyatlov group. From them follows that anything, besides, that usually happens on similar ski travel did not occur.

Well one potential event comes to mind and that is the potential event that caused the group to go up towards the mountain as opposed to around it through the forest.

This event can cause misunderstanding only in those who has no practice of similar travel. Their exit with lifting upward completely corresponds to tactics of similar travel.
Whether it is necessary to explain that I understand as the term «tactics of ski travel» in section of categories: travel to wood, travel without the wood, the combined travel?

By all accounts the weather was very bad and yet the group decided to go onto an exposed mountain side and pitch the Tent.

Judging by two last photos ( https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-32.jpg  and https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-33.jpg ) there was a weather quite usual for the given place during the given period of time. It happens and is much worse. For example, it is possible to look https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing  ( http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=6.0  - Reply #2 in that forum ) /
Very seldom weather happens better these conditions.

Surely it would have been better to pitch the Tent near the tree line or in the forest.

Yes. In it you are absolutely right. And even more correct would be that they should not go to such travel at all.  grin1
And if to take this situation from tactics of similar travel anything especial in their such decision is not present. They had 3 reasons such to organize that spending night:
1.Economy time and forces for movement to mountain Otorten the next day. Light day very short (at that time = 6.5 hours), lifting from a place of a warehouse at this place (2 km or 1.5 miles + 300 m [~ 1000 ft] lifting upwards) demands an extra time and forces. They or could leave the same day on top of mountain Otorten and (potentially) save day, or they lost it having a full guarantee.
2.Being above, they could estimate at once weather and make decision to go what of variants (there them was three units).
3.They planned following travel for Subpolar Ural Mountains (500 km or 300 miles to the north). In that region it is impossible to travel without spending the night to conditions of absence of wood. For this purpose, what to be to it ready it training (including psychology, it is skill, as well as the rope-walker should to get used go at height) would be required. Therefore the organisation of such training was one of the purposes of this action.
The stop on this place was according to plan. There will easily go down to wood in a current of half an hour in any party. And under any circumstances or under any weather conditions. And the most correct would be to go down in the following inflow of the river Lozva, above on a current. It would know at them 30 … 40 minutes.
I have article (in Russian) where all these questions are considered in detail. There are many maps and schemes. If there is a necessity I can to give the reference.
PS. Climbers adhere to similar tactics (it agree point 1) also at ascensions on difficult mountains. If they have a delay to an exit on a route almost on all the day they (very often) try to promote at least on small distance (height), for this purpose, what to provide to themselves an additional guarantee of a successful ascension the next day.
The manager of this forum - Teddy - goes to mountains on ascensions. At she is possible to take an interest how much it is correct determination.



October 23, 2018, 03:23:47 PM
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sarapuk

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Well the diaries do not tell us that much. Considering the length of the expedition I would have expected more information in the diaries, unless of course there is MISSING INFORMATION  ! ?  Well obviously we do not know of any special event, that is what we are trying to find out. The group did not keep to their original route plan for some reason. Yes the Dyatlov Group would have known the type of weather conditions to expect and also to avoid EXPOSED MOUNTAIN SIDES when pitching a Tent. One of the searchers, KARELIN,  states that the placement of the Tent was chosen improperly, suggesting to me and maybe other investigators that the Dyatlov Group were concerned about pitching the Tent in the forest or near the tree line for some reason, and instead felt safer on a very windy and exposed mountain slope  !  ? 
DB

October 24, 2018, 03:32:18 AM
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WAB


Well the diaries do not tell us that much. Considering the length of the expedition I would have expected more information in the diaries, unless of course there is MISSING INFORMATION  ! ?

The information in diaries has enough for that understanding that occurred. But for this purpose what to read that that (as at us speak) to be able «to read between lines»(с) , it is necessary to have practice of such travel. Then it is possible to understand by analogy to that much as it happens usually on such travel. There is in general an unequivocal understanding, but for the people much, which experts of such travel have no, it looks unusually and not clearly.

Well obviously we do not know of any special event, that is what we are trying to find out.

Any unusual event before all tragical events (prior to the beginning of that minute have begun!) was not. All was as happens usually.

The group did not keep to their original route plan for some reason.

The group completely adhered to the initial plan. If you see differences from it, please say them. I do`t see them.

Yes the Dyatlov Group would have known the type of weather conditions to expect and also to avoid EXPOSED MOUNTAIN SIDES when pitching a Tent. One of the searchers, KARELIN,  states that the placement of the Tent was chosen improperly,

I many times talked with searcher Vladislav Karelin and he has agreed with me (having read that I have written in article) that its estimation of actions of group in 1959 was to year a little emotional. Then at it was not enough experience of travel by woodless region. Level of sports skill at our us about identical now. He is much better me knows travel on all mountains of Ural Mountains, except the most northern - Polar Ural Mountains. Especially it concerns Subpolar Ural Mountainsat. I is better it know travel across Polar Ural Mountains, islands of Arctic Ocean, Sayan mountains and region beyond Baikal. Kola peninsula is my favourite area of winter travel, but it more simple in comparison with the others which are listed that.

suggesting to me and maybe other investigators that the Dyatlov Group were concerned about pitching the Tent in the forest or near the tree line for some reason, and instead felt safer on a very windy and exposed mountain slope  !  ?

Place tent in completely safe area does not mean absolutely correct choice. I already gave an example, when the most safe is not to travel at all. Here it was necessary compromise choice between safety and problems which are put before itself by group.
At First. It is possible not to know about dangers completely. As it was in Dyatlov group.
At Secondly. «The risk is has put a noble cause» (c). Without risk there no are good travel. The question is the risk would be considered and weighed. And also it should have the noble and real purpose. Otherwise it will be not risk, and reckless adventurism.
In Dyatlov group all it was. At-1, and At-2. That they at all did not know about danger to which they have got was bad. But even now all of us know about it very vaguely.

October 24, 2018, 12:39:10 PM
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sarapuk

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WAB.  You say and I quote ;

 ''The information in diaries has enough for that understanding that occurred. But for this purpose what to read that that (as at us speak) to be able «to read between lines»(с) , it is necessary to have practice of such travel. Then it is possible to understand by analogy to that much as it happens usually on such travel. There is in general an unequivocal understanding, but for the people much, which experts of such travel have no, it looks unusually and not clearly.''

A diary is usually meant to be a record of EVENTS, whatever form those events take.  The writer of a diary may input their own personal feelings. The point is that there is not much in all of those diaries that help us regarding the last day or so before the big event.  Very little information. So how is it possible to form an understanding of what happened  !  ? 

Also, and I quote ; ''The group completely adhered to the initial plan. If you see differences from it, please say them. I do`t see them.''

Its known that the Dyatlov Group intended to cross through near the forest area, which probably means about a kilometre aprox from their actual course. Why did they not keep to this intended course  ! ?  Instead they took a course that took them on to an EXPOSED MOUNTAIN SIDE IN BAD WEATHER CONDITIONS. Iam not an experienced mountaineer but I have been on a mountain in snow conditions and I would certainly not want to pitch a tent in such conditions and nor would experienced mountaineers if they could help it.

Also, and I quote ; ''I many times talked with searcher Vladislav Karelin and he has agreed with me (having read that I have written in article) that its estimation of actions of group in 1959 was to year a little emotional. Then at it was not enough experience of travel by woodless region. Level of sports skill at our us about identical now. He is much better me knows travel on all mountains of Ural Mountains, except the most northern - Polar Ural Mountains. Especially it concerns Subpolar Ural Mountainsat.''


Emotional. What is that supposed to mean  !  ?  Sometimes peoples initial reactions and observations are the correct ones.  They may change their minds later on for some reason but that doesnt mean that their first thoughts are wrong.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 12:54:52 PM by sarapuk »
DB

October 25, 2018, 05:51:34 AM
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WAB


WAB.  You say and I quote ;
--------------------------------
 ''The information in diaries has enough for that understanding that occurred. But for this purpose what to read that that (as at us speak) to be able «to read between lines»(с) , it is necessary to have practice of such travel. Then it is possible to understand by analogy to that much as it happens usually on such travel. There is in general an unequivocal understanding, but for the people much, which experts of such travel have no, it looks unusually and not clearly.''
=================================
A diary is usually meant to be a record of EVENTS, whatever form those events take.  The writer of a diary may input their own personal feelings. The point is that there is not much in all of those diaries that help us regarding the last day or so before the big event.  Very little information. So how is it possible to form an understanding of what happened  !  ?

I suggest us understand these questions under the following scheme:
1.Diaries on such travel happen two updatings: personal diaries and the general diary of all group.
2.It is necessary to consider who wrote it and that he wrote about concrete local event.
3.In diaries write not only that already was, but also about that that plan to make. Besides can be also different thoughts on extraneous things and events.
4.Very often even very insignificant notes will be clear that who much and long participated in similar travel and are not clear to other people because they are not familiar with it and cannot present itself it.
I ask you, please, analyse all that information taking into account all these points. That is all information which it seems to you as considerable and not clear.
I am ready to answer all particularly put questions.
 
Also, and I quote ;
---------------------------------
 ''The group completely adhered to the initial plan. If you see differences from it, please say them. I do`t see them.''  =======================================
Its known that the Dyatlov Group intended to cross through near the forest area, which probably means about a kilometre aprox from their actual course. Why did they not keep to this intended course  ! ?  Instead they took a course that took them on to an EXPOSED MOUNTAIN SIDE IN BAD WEATHER CONDITIONS.

Why you consider, what "that the  of Dyatlov group intends to be crossed about the wood area" (c)? Especially me interests, why you have decided, what it should be made "approximately in kilometre from their actual course" (c)? You well know this place? To the fine details? As far as I know there there are some different variants of construction of a local route. They should take place depending on concrete conditions: weathers, conditions of district, specific targets for the present day. I specially analyzed movement variants in this place from a position of the person of 50 similar 50 similar or more difficult travel having more, and is direct in that place, in completely similar conditions and at a various condition of weather. I do not have doubts that Igor Dyatlov has arrived incorrectly or in what that has broken traditional system of the approach to the decision of problems on a route. In what concrete section you see it not correct actions. I ask: It is not necessary to say (once again) that in wood it would be more safe. It is trivial point view of laymans.
Should repeat again that the weather estimation ("took them on EXPOSED MOUNTAIN SIDE IN BAD WEATHER CONDITIONS." (c) in this case is too subjective and does not correspond to an estimation of the decision of Igor to go in безлесную a zone.
If to alter words of one classic it is possible to tell: "Marxism the travel plan not dogma, and the guide to action!" (c)
Should repeat again that weather was quite comprehensible to their experience and concrete conditions. Such weather happens in 50 … 70 % of cases at present year. In 5 … 10 % - weather happens better this, in the others 20 … 45 % weather happens much more bad. Once again I advise to look at video of our visits of this place http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=6.0  on March, 31st 2018, 4:36:32 AM to Answer # 2 or https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FaZ2RSUdFtdQLyCZXZBn0w1L01uB22cr?usp=sharing .
By the way, there certain sarapuk  bigjoke has left the comment even October 09, 2018, 2:34:07 AM PM.
 
Iam not an experienced mountaineer

I think that many not understood questions it is possible explain to these. By the way, that we discuss, does not concern mountaineering. It is a separate branch of sports travel: long winter ski travel. A difference in them (if to speak conditionally and emotionally) approximately same as at the car and a motorcycle.
 
but I have been on a mountain in snow conditions and I would certainly not want to pitch a tent in such conditions and nor would experienced mountaineers if they could help it.

And you consider, what it is enough of it for this purpose, what skilled argue into behaviour of group in long winter ski travel?

Also, and I quote ; ''I many times talked with searcher Vladislav Karelin and he has agreed with me (having read that I have written in article) that its estimation of actions of group in 1959 was to year a little emotional. Then at it was not enough experience of travel by woodless region. Level of sports skill at our us about identical now. He is much better me knows travel on all mountains of Ural Mountains, except the most northern - Polar Ural Mountains. Especially it concerns Subpolar Ural Mountainsat.''
========================
Emotional. What is that supposed to mean  !  ?


It means that during concrete time (1959) Vladislav Karelin considered that travel in woodless zone are very dangerous, but then (when at it has appeared a lot of experience of travel on woodless zone is already after 60th and the beginnings of 70th years) he has changed the opinion.
However we do estimations now, already having a wide experience of such travel. And it opinion is much more objective.

Sometimes peoples initial reactions and observations are the correct ones.


However, happens so is more often that with reception of additional knowledge and practical experience, there is revaluation of the opinion.

They may change their minds later on for some reason but that doesnt mean that their first thoughts are wrong.

Certainly it is so. However I have say reason of change of this concrete opinion. Karelin's thoughts 1959 were not erroneous, but insufficiently proved, as has led to their revaluation further.

October 25, 2018, 03:33:46 PM
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sarapuk

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WAB.  Iam having difficulty understanding the TRANSLATION from Russian to English.  I can understand some points but many I can not because of the TRANSLATION.
DB

October 26, 2018, 01:03:25 PM
Reply #7
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WAB


WAB.  Iam having difficulty understanding the TRANSLATION from Russian to English.  I can understand some points but many I can not because of the TRANSLATION.

I'm sorry. I am not the professional translator. Semantics of Russian and English differ much. At me the stock of terms is a little limited. I try to specify many terms under the special dictionary where is about 1000000 terms. Probably it not always turns out successfully. I well understand everything that I read in this forum. However sometimes there are difficulties if is used local slang. In the rest place there are no difficulties.
If you specify not clear to you phrases or fragments from paragraphs I will be ready write them in more details or to pick up other similar terms. I will not be in detail explain physical laws and scientific theories.
If many of readers do not understand that I write, I am ready to leave a forum what not to spend in vain time of readers and my. To me it will be not clear, the weight of the actual information which is not present whom, except me or Shura (Alexander Alekseenkov) whence can get. Shura cannot write in English, therefore it does not take part in this forum.
I am ready to listen to all offers.

October 26, 2018, 04:42:35 PM
Reply #8
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sarapuk

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WAB dont worry, Iam sure we can manage with the translation even if its difficult at times.  I use GOOGLE TRANSLATE which is very good.
DB

January 27, 2019, 08:02:11 AM
Reply #9
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dante


Hi everyone!

I had a question regarding Zinas letter home. (Can find it on the page but not in the forum) and Her letter to Igor Im translating a few rows into Swedish and had a question about the part where she talks about the "plant" did she work there when not in school?


Her Letter to IGOR

 I'm sitting at the plant, today is the second day, I'm in the RMS, I read the SCH and I sort out the drawings, I'll soon be drawing something.


Her Letter home

At the plant, everything is ok, they let me go


// Dante
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 08:09:18 AM by dante »

January 27, 2019, 05:31:53 PM
Reply #10
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Vietnamka


Hi everyone!

I had a question regarding Zinas letter home. (Can find it on the page but not in the forum) and Her letter to Igor Im translating a few rows into Swedish and had a question about the part where she talks about the "plant" did she work there when not in school?


Her Letter to IGOR

 I'm sitting at the plant, today is the second day, I'm in the RMS, I read the SCH and I sort out the drawings, I'll soon be drawing something.


Her Letter home

At the plant, everything is ok, they let me go


// Dante
Zina was a 5the year student. it's a Master degree in comparison with the western education system.  She's  had a work training for a few weeks in the Kamens Uralsk, more likely on the Radio Plant
http://wikimapia.org/1659759/radio-plant
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Октябрь_(производственное_объединение)




April 25, 2019, 10:44:44 AM
Reply #11

Clacon

Guest
Hi Vietnamka :)

Can you clarify if it was nuclear plant??

April 25, 2019, 05:56:19 PM
Reply #12
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi everyone!

I had a question regarding Zinas letter home. (Can find it on the page but not in the forum) and Her letter to Igor Im translating a few rows into Swedish and had a question about the part where she talks about the "plant" did she work there when not in school?


Her Letter to IGOR

 I'm sitting at the plant, today is the second day, I'm in the RMS, I read the SCH and I sort out the drawings, I'll soon be drawing something.


Her Letter home

At the plant, everything is ok, they let me go


// Dante
Zina was a 5the year student. it's a Master degree in comparison with the western education system.  She's  had a work training for a few weeks in the Kamens Uralsk, more likely on the Radio Plant
http://wikimapia.org/1659759/radio-plant
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Октябрь_(производственное_объединение)

Well the area was and still is mostly an Industrial Area. But we are talking Non Ferrous Metals mostly. I can not find any references to Nuclear Materials.
DB

April 26, 2019, 04:49:11 AM
Reply #13
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Vietnamka


Hi Vietnamka :)

Can you clarify if it was nuclear plant??
No)