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Author Topic: What about this theory?  (Read 2046 times)

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December 11, 2018, 08:23:49 AM
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Kopyrda




It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav). As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.
Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:31:38 AM by Kopyrda »

December 12, 2018, 09:04:38 PM
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WAB




It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav).

Esteemed Kopyrda!
Let's make small analysis of this video, leaning not against fictions of the person which lives in Germany, but only that exists actually on a place of these events. Therefore to understand words it is action means very little, it is necessary to understand those thoughts which are sounded by the author. To me in this situation to estimate it because I investigated all these possibilities directly on a place much easier and was engaged in applied biomechanics for possibility of an estimation of traumas which were received by victims.


As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Yes. It is that is a basis for the theory of this author. But it does not correspond to that is on a place and to that that turns out as a result of such "collapse".
1.On that place where there was a tent basically there is no such quantity of snow that it could collect and bring down tent with such consequences.
2.When on tent snow the tent roof sags so accumulates that it should be noticed. Thus on tent top still it is not enough snow. Therefore at once there is a question: Why participants of travel have not found out this (very big) sagging and have not shaken snow? So always do on similar travel. From here I will strike the conclusion follows: or the author of it did not know, because never participated in such travel, or he specially neglects it what is false to advance the theory.
3.The Ski stick as a tent prop in that case or pierces a fabric and remains whole, or loses stability (that is full fantasy because loading should be improbably big) and is split on wood fibres lengthways. But does not break in any way “with  cut”. Snow which is loading "is not able" to make an incision a stick.  grin1
4.Traumas which have been received in any way do not correlate with subjects about which there is a speech. All these subjects at very big loading give local (comparable to their sizes) damages. That it is not written in the medical description. It is necessary to note. That here there is a sharp distinction of an initial wound of Tibo and possibility to receive such wound from a flask. In the medical description it is written that (the initial!) The wound has the sizes of 3 cm Х 3,5 (or 8,5 - in the document it is indistinctly read, but it is not important) cm Х 2 (it is depth of penetration) see therefore such wound it is possible to receive only very firm subject with the sizes about 2. 5 cm Х 3 (or 8) see It reminds a punch. Next sizes 9х7 см is a secondary fragmental breach which has appeared because of presence primary. From here it is possible to draw a conclusion: the subject which was a trauma source had the conic form. The sizes of the flask resulted in video do not correspond to these conditions the flask Shown on video the form with axes of an ellipse 20 Х 12 Х 6 cm has oval It see smooth and is made of soft aluminium. Hardness of this aluminium is comparable (and probably and less than at a bone) to hardness of bones of a skull. For getting wound at least on an order (in 10 times) more than hardness is required from a bone.
5.As far as I know, on such travel do not go balmy on firm subjects. It very inconveniently also prevents to sleep, because the head all time rolls down downwards. For this purpose, what to put a place under a head at each traveller there are many other subjects. For example it is possible to extend a sleeve of the wadded jacket, which participants of Dyatlov group stacked downwards under a body.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.

These doubts are very proved. The trauma at Lyudmila Dubinina is that that she even could breathe only with great difficulty. The thorax is as though a skeleton for this purpose that lungs could extend and be compressed. If it to destroy to breathe begins or it is very difficult and painful, or it is absolutely impossible. At it was so-called floating or “as widow” crisis (reminding a window, that is free and opened). At it all have been broken almost edges from both parties of body. In its such condition it was dangerous even to transfer. Therefore the remark apropos penetration into heart is connected with its movement, but it is possible only on very small distance. Otherwise it could be broken in general half-and-half. Independently do any movements it could not in such condition.

Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?

About it I already have written above.

*****************************

I already wrote for all who is interested about traumas: I have article (in Russian) about traumas and everything that with them is connected.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing 

If you can read that in Russian look at it. It will be better make it with dictionary. If there will be that that not clearly please write or here, or not an e-mail which is in requisites nickname in forum.

December 13, 2018, 05:35:43 AM
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Kopyrda


Thanks for the answer! I also found it doubtful that someone would use canteen, a hard piece of metal, as a "pillow" -  instead of something more comfortable, like folded clothes or a blanket.
I'll try to go through the document you linked to with the help of google translator.

December 13, 2018, 10:54:55 PM
Reply #3
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Monika




It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav). As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.
Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?

I also think that the injuries of Dubinia and Zolotarev were such serious that they would certainly not have gone so far and in such high snow. They were injured either under the tree or more likely at the den.

December 14, 2018, 02:48:57 AM
Reply #4
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Kopyrda



I already wrote for all who is interested about traumas: I have article (in Russian) about traumas and everything that with them is connected.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing 

I read this article with the help of translator. Still, a pity it's not in English, I would understand it better. It's really a shame, that so many sources on the case are only in Russian.
One thing - the article seems to imply that Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov died on the way towards the forest, not while trying to return to the tent ("тезис о возвращении к палатке от кедра выглядит совершенно нереально"). I thought that all of those three were found with their heads towards the tent, as info on this site states.
https://dyatlovpass.com/death
For example, "Zinaida was found 630 m from the cedar, face down, head towards the tent." Someone noticed, that the position she was in implied that she had fallen for the last time while climbing.

December 14, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
Reply #5
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav). As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.
Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?

I have slept in a tent that collapsed due to snow buildup. The sides sag in well before it collapses.  Also you are more likely to be smothered than injured.  And you would have to be tied up or paralized to be smothered I suspect.  I don’t think it’s particularly credible that this is what happened to them.  Even if it had there is no reason to leave camp site.

December 14, 2018, 08:52:02 AM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
In terms of the avalanche theory one possibility is that large lumps of ice or snow were dislodged further up the hill and one or more hit the tent with potential to cause some injury. The group may have then panicked and left the tent thinking there was an avalanche on the way.  I think that given the temperature and lack of clothes it would only be about 30 minutes to an hour before their bodies would be so cold as to not be able to recover even if they had managed to get their clothes back.

December 14, 2018, 09:02:08 AM
Reply #7
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Kopyrda


The group may have then panicked and left the tent thinking there was an avalanche on the way.
That's what I'd like to believe... but evidence says that they left the tent in orderly fashion, not in the state of panic. They weren't running, only moving slowly towards the forest. That's what their footsteps apparently suggested.

December 15, 2018, 01:45:50 AM
Reply #8
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WAB



I also think that the injuries of Dubinia and Zolotarev were such serious that they would certainly not have gone so far and in such high snow. They were injured either under the tree or more likely at the den.

It is correct. Only it is necessary to understand that in a den there are no conditions to be traumatised which were at Dubinina and Zolotaryov. These conditions are on distance approximately 40 … 50 m from this place.
Under a tree too there are no such conditions.
At such falling character of traumas would be absolutely another and there would be signs of contact to branches. Character of disorder of bodies at falling would be such that would not be possible to fall precisely to two persons, and furthermore three persons. Tree branches would not allow to make it. And there is only rather soft layer of earth and snow without presence of stones.


December 15, 2018, 01:52:49 AM
Reply #9
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WAB



I already wrote for all who is interested about traumas: I have article (in Russian) about traumas and everything that with them is connected.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing 

I read this article with the help of translator. Still, a pity it's not in English, I would understand it better. It's really a shame, that so many sources on the case are only in Russian.

Pan Kopyrda !
Probably it is surprising, what it is only in Russian? It is interesting, if this event has occurred in Poland in what language would be most of all information?  grin1
I think that problems with language and transfers would be not less than now …  grin1
It is for all others.


One thing - the article seems to imply that Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov died on the way towards the forest, not while trying to return to the tent ("тезис о возвращении к палатке от кедра выглядит совершенно нереально").

Yes.

I thought that all of those three were found with their heads towards the tent, as info on this site states.
https://dyatlovpass.com/death

It means nothing. On a slope the person intuitively lays down upwards a head on a slope. Here there is nothing surprising. Especially if person is in foggy consciousness which is characteristic for the second stage of overcooling.

For example, "Zinaida was found 630 m from the cedar, face down, head towards the tent." Someone noticed, that the position she was in implied that she had fallen for the last time while climbing.

Such remark was in memoirs of participants of search. But it only opinion of one person (or several persons). It only opinion, it is necessary to make still a serious substantiation that they went to tent. This substantiation is not present. There is an opinion which 60 years exist and which was transformed to a legend.

December 15, 2018, 01:58:00 AM
Reply #10
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WAB



.............................
 What are your thoughts?

I have slept in a tent that collapsed due to snow buildup. The sides sag in well before it collapses.  Also you are more likely to be smothered than injured.  And you would have to be tied up or paralized to be smothered I suspect.  I don’t think it’s particularly credible that this is what happened to them. 

Signs which arise at a full and big blockage of tent you have resulted correctly.

Even if it had there is no reason to leave camp site.

It too the correct remark. It would be more correct and easier to dump snow and to remain in tent.

December 15, 2018, 02:19:23 AM
Reply #11
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WAB


In terms of the avalanche theory one possibility is that large lumps of ice or snow were dislodged further up the hill and one or more hit the tent with potential to cause some injury. The group may have then panicked and left the tent thinking there was an avalanche on the way. 

You are mistaken in an estimation of possibility of an avalanche. On conditions on district there even the small motion of snow in general is impossible.
The assumption of an avalanche and the same phenomena is full fiction
On a photo the slope profile is well visible. A place where there was a tent it is designated by a tag. A bias corner on this place of 12,5 degrees. It is measured by means of the level tool.
 


On video it is shown as group should make level a platform under a tent bottom.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kkny3ix7wy3gZcQWJcnJ61HgFnYz_-VK/view?usp=sharing 

On the basis of it is possible to draw conclusions on possibility of occurrence of an avalanche or any motion of snow.

I think that given the temperature and lack of clothes it would only be about 30 minutes to an hour before their bodies would be so cold as to not be able to recover even if they had managed to get their clothes back.

I do not think that at clothes available for them and conditions of the nature they could live so long. I estimate time of possible active actions approximately in 2 … 3 or 4 hours, and further they could not remain any more to live on a cold without assistance and powerful sources of heat.
Even from the beginning of events till the moment of full dying (clinical death) I would estimate time in 6 … 8 hours.

December 15, 2018, 02:25:54 AM
Reply #12
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WAB


The group may have then panicked and left the tent thinking there was an avalanche on the way.
That's what I'd like to believe... but evidence says that they left the tent in orderly fashion, not in the state of panic.

Why you so estimate it?
To escape from tent in those conditions which at them were (frost t <-15 … 20С (+5F...-4F)+ a wind not less than 12 … 15 m/s above, and frost o <-20C … -25С (-4F...-13F) below even without a wind) and at all without taking the necessary clothes and adaptations for a survival, they could only without situation considering. Even in the smallest degree. It is equivalent to that they have jumped out of the plane at the big height.

They weren't running, only moving slowly towards the forest. That's what their footsteps apparently suggested.

On what a sign you estimate it? It has appeared only as a result of different conversations. On that slope it is impossible to distinguish character of moving on traces because character of traces there is defined by the situation on district. There are no flat and horizontal platforms on which already there is a statistics of characteristic traces. Besides, there was no continuous chain of traces on the big extent. Traces have been located by separate fragments with a wide interval. Under such circumstances it was impossible to define how much slow or fast moving. There was it run or simply usual walking.

December 15, 2018, 04:21:24 PM
Reply #13
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The group may have then panicked and left the tent thinking there was an avalanche on the way.
That's what I'd like to believe... but evidence says that they left the tent in orderly fashion, not in the state of panic.

Why you so estimate it?
To escape from tent in those conditions which at them were (frost t <-15 … 20С (+5F...-4F)+ a wind not less than 12 … 15 m/s above, and frost o <-20C … -25С (-4F...-13F) below even without a wind) and at all without taking the necessary clothes and adaptations for a survival, they could only without situation considering. Even in the smallest degree. It is equivalent to that they have jumped out of the plane at the big height.

They weren't running, only moving slowly towards the forest. That's what their footsteps apparently suggested.

On what a sign you estimate it? It has appeared only as a result of different conversations. On that slope it is impossible to distinguish character of moving on traces because character of traces there is defined by the situation on district. There are no flat and horizontal platforms on which already there is a statistics of characteristic traces. Besides, there was no continuous chain of traces on the big extent. Traces have been located by separate fragments with a wide interval. Under such circumstances it was impossible to define how much slow or fast moving. There was it run or simply usual walking.

I agree that there was no avalanche or movement of snow.  I also think that the avalanche theory can't be right. 

The only thing that I think might have been a possibility, is that some lumps of snow or ice were dislodged, possibly by the wind and rolled down and hit the tent.  But even this seems unlikely.  It was just a thought.

I also agree that after leaving the tent they would have realised that there was no avalanche coming and that they would not have left without their essential clothing.

In my mind I can only see two or possibly three possibilities:

1. Something extremely unusual and terrifying caused them to leave the tent and camp site without stopping to collect their essential clothing
2. They were forced out of the tent and down the slope by other people possibly armed
3. They went down the slope of their own accord.  Possibly intoxicated, possibly affected by some drug, or it was some stupid prank.

Even option 3 seems very unlikely to me.

December 16, 2018, 02:25:50 AM
Reply #14
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WAB



..................................

I agree that there was no avalanche or movement of snow.  I also think that the avalanche theory can't be right. 

The only thing that I think might have been a possibility, is that some lumps of snow or ice were dislodged, possibly by the wind and rolled down and hit the tent.  But even this seems unlikely.  It was just a thought.

Let's argue logically?
Lumps have rolled down, have struck … that follows further? The man on duty left outside, has looked and has told that happens. It is all that could be. However I cannot present whence there snow lumps can undertake? About ice lumps it is possible not to speak at all. Above on a slope there is a same lifting which comes to an end with even more flat site of a place. There eaves because conditions do not give such possibility are not formed at all.
 



I also agree that after leaving the tent they would have realised that there was no avalanche coming and that they would not have left without their essential clothing.

In my mind I can only see two or possibly three possibilities:

1. Something extremely unusual and terrifying caused them to leave the tent and camp site without stopping to collect their essential clothing

This condition should be either real, or introduced in their consciousness so that they could not distinguish it from a reality. Are you agree with it?

2. They were forced out of the tent and down the slope by other people possibly armed

For this purpose these people should have 3 real conditions:
1.The Reason what so to arrive.
2.Unconditional possibility to get on this place
3.Unconditional possibility to find tent in those conditions that then were available
I do not know, how others, but I cannot find such possibilities, in detail having studied districts and logistics.


3. They went down the slope of their own accord.  Possibly intoxicated, possibly affected by some drug, or it was some stupid prank.

Let's look at the facts?
Examination has established that alcohol at them it is not revealed. At anybody from them it is not revealed.
Similarly it is not revealed drugs. Especially if to consider that it to receive drugs at that time it was almost impossible.
The jokes reminding what “all group to jump off from a skyscraper roof”  grin1 at that time too did not practise. Time was such that there were few means and possibilities to entertainments, and many different prospects in a science and life. Especially it concerned students of such universities, as UrPolInst.
To make such "jokes" without the necessary clothes too is not logical. It more reminds suicide, instead of jokes.


Even option 3 seems very unlikely to me.

Its probability as is small, as though all molecules of water in glass simultaneously would start to move upwards and water in glass has jumped up.  grin1

December 16, 2018, 04:53:30 AM
Reply #15
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Kopyrda



For this purpose these people should have 3 real conditions:
1.The Reason what so to arrive.
2.Unconditional possibility to get on this place
3.Unconditional possibility to find tent in those conditions that then were available
I do not know, how others, but I cannot find such possibilities, in detail having studied districts and logistics.

1. Maybe they were some Mansi extremists who hated outsiders. I know, that Mansi were generally peaceful folks, but you can always find some exceptions.
2. Well, Mansi were locals. They even named all the mountains around, including the real name of the mountain that tourists set their tent on. It's called "Łunt-Chusap-Siachył" (Polish pronunciation), which means "Mountain of the Goose's Nest" (unlike popular belief says - "Mountain of the Dead").
3. Maybe they were tracking tourists for quite some time? Who knows... Even tourists themselves made some photos of Mansi signs on the trees nearby.
Also, maybe they were wearing snowshoes? I don't know, maybe it prevents tracks in the snow from remaining for so long as "snow columns" tourists left?

I know, theory of Mansi involvement seems to be very unlikely, but as Arthur Conan Doyle once said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".
And we just are out of options. Not an avalanche, not KGB, no drugs, alcohol, yetis, infrasounds, UFOs... what remains?
Unless you have some better theories, it will be a real pleasure to read about them.

December 17, 2018, 02:01:11 AM
Reply #16
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WAB



For this purpose these people should have 3 real conditions:
1.The Reason what so to arrive.
2.Unconditional possibility to get on this place
3.Unconditional possibility to find tent in those conditions that then were available
I do not know, how others, but I cannot find such possibilities, in detail having studied districts and logistics.

1. Maybe they were some Mansi extremists who hated outsiders. I know, that Mansi were generally peaceful folks, but you can always find some exceptions.

I once again pay attention to necessary conditions for any statements: the reasons are For this purpose necessary. At Mansi such reasons were not. Their quantity was very small so also possibility to be in any place was insignificant. On a route of Dyatlov group there is only one place where Mansi there could be 1 time in 3 or 4 weeks in the winter. This place is described at them in diaries, but the hunter has passed there some days before group. It is a route Mansi where they check traps which are established for sable catching. Is more often it there it be no point to get. Their settlement was in 80 km to the east from Auspia, therefore even if it is necessary for them there were for other reasons they not could appear there often.
Mountain and its vicinities were not places of their religious actions. The nearest such mountain was in 75 km to the south from this place. Dyatlov group could not do much harm in any ways Mansi, therefore they would not have any reasons that them to attack.
Exceptions of extremist character happen. But so all would be silent, therefore who that has killed 9 persons, and then again all is silent, so does not happen. And so in the winter in taiga who that has not left traces too does not happen. Traces (or their signs) always can be found snow has not thawed yet.

2. Well, Mansi were locals. They even named all the mountains around, including the real name of the mountain that tourists set their tent on. It's called "Łunt-Chusap-Siachył" (Polish pronunciation), which means "Mountain of the Goose's Nest" (unlike popular belief says - "Mountain of the Dead").

Here you are mistaken. The name "Łunt-Chusap-Siachył" (I use your transcription) concerns mountain "Otorten" (on maps). There below there is a lake "Lunthusaptur".



The mountain Holatchahl is place for 15 km to the south from it. The mountain so is named on maps later 1959!! After that as the name “natural boundary (or "tract" - I cannot find the necessary term) Dyatlov pass “ On maps of such names has been put was not before this event.
The name "Holatchahl" (on maps) - if to use a pronunciation as tell манси - "HolaT-Sakhyl" has arisen already after all events 1959. Before on maps (and at participants of searches) it was called «1079» (without any names of a name). Mansi there did not go (on mountain) because their track of a stage of deer passed by (in the spring and in the summer), and in the winter the sense there to go was not it there at all.
Even earlier (in a XIX-th century - Hoffmann's expeditions, Reguli, Bragin) this mountain have plotted under the name "Auspia-Tump" (it from the book Semenov-Tian-Shansky 1897). That is that mountain its height (in foots - 3670 ft) speaks . That is interesting: on this card (is faster - the scheme) there is also a name "Mani-Hola-chahl". ("Mani" - means small in Mansi) But it is in other place, in a lateral ridge of "Charko-Nur". On the shown scheme they are taken in framework purple colour.
There is one more aspect in understanding of names: semantics of language Mansi is that that the word "Holat" designates "lifeless" in semantic transfer. It was noted by ethnologist Matveev in the monography. Therefore the mountain name it is possible to understand as «a place in which is not present live». That is there is nothing hunts also grows nothing.



The scheme from V.Semenov-Tian-Shansky's book "Geographical and statistical dictionary of the Russian empire".

3. Maybe they were tracking tourists for quite some time? Who knows... Even tourists themselves made some photos of Mansi signs on the trees nearby.


What purpose of this tracing? It is necessary to do the further conclusions of this assumption.
Signs of Mansi which saw Dyatlov group, I managed to decipher by means of local Mansi Roman Aniamov in 2008. In February 2009 it has been published at a forum https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/?x=read&razdel=8&tema=7&start=0  (earlier the address was another, but because of change of the proprietor of a site of the Internet it has passed to other resource). One There was gone (but main!) a picture, I will place it here:



These are usual signs on hunters where they specify who was on this place and that they there have extracted as a result of hunting. There signs which belong to different clans of hunters are drawn
These signs have no ritual value.

Also, maybe they were wearing snowshoes? I don't know, maybe it prevents tracks in the snow from remaining for so long as "snow columns" tourists left?

Mansi move by ski. Skis have the features, but they same as well as usual.



In this picture the Mansi hunter with original skis.
Snowshoes do not suit distant transitions, to go about their help more difficultly and more hard. In deep friable snow, snowshoes leave the same traces as well as skis, but they specific. If to speak about a place about tent + / - 1...2 mi (where there is no friable snow) that there skis will not leave traces the same.

I know, theory of Mansi involvement seems to be very unlikely, but as Arthur Conan Doyle once said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth".

And we have eliminated all possible?

And we just are out of options. Not an avalanche, not KGB, no drugs, alcohol, yetis, infrasounds, UFOs... what remains?

I agree with all arguments which you here have resulted, but what you know about properties of infrasound and its feature for example to the given place?

Unless you have some better theories, it will be a real pleasure to read about them.

It is very much great volume of that it is necessary to describe. And it is necessary to do it carefully and in detail. I am not engaged in this theme professionally, I am occupied by researches in a space science. I find time to write here with great difficulty and deficiency of time. But if suddenly there will be such possibility, I will by all means inform you. For now I can give the next reference how Dyatlov group began a route and as it has come into place where the tent has been put. All text there is in Russian.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6J-XIhYsx39ODgtdjF3ZVpnZjg/view?usp=sharing 

The adequate translation on English demands a lot of time, forces and special linguistic preparation.

=========================================

PS. You know, what there is site on Polish which writes on a theme of this case?

http://forum.fortyck.pl/topic/1156-tragedia-na-przeleczy-diatlowa-12-luty-1959-r/

December 17, 2018, 08:08:06 AM
Reply #17
Offline

Kopyrda


I agree with all arguments which you here have resulted, but what you know about properties of infrasound and its feature for example to the given place?
Sounds interesting. Though I think that further research into the subject of infrasounds' influence on humans is required and experiments must be conducted, especially to determine if there are conditions for such an incident on Dyatlov Pass. Albeit, it's hard to believe anyone would conduct experiments on living organisms in our times. I don't think I ever heard of infrasounds having such a devastating effect on human psyche, to force all 9 of tourists to leave a tent in the middle of the night without vital equipment. But who knows, "there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

Quote
PS. You know, what there is site on Polish which writes on a theme of this case?
http://forum.fortyck.pl/topic/1156-tragedia-na-przeleczy-diatlowa-12-luty-1959-r/

I've been there a while ago, but recently they just post random photos from hikers' cameras and articles from this site... so I just visit this site.
I prefer another Polish site, whose author seems to believe in rocket theory. It's also a great site, because author knows Russian and had used a lot of great sources from Russian sites and books, and even translated original documents, like letters of tourists. Like this article for example, implying that Krivoschenko's brother apparently had believed in possibility of failed rocket launch from Kazakhstan, that supposedly was was going to reach Novaya Zemlya. His father believed that both Yuris were suddenly blinded by something (a detonation?), that's why they couldn't maintain a fire at the cedar tree.
For me, it doesn't sound believable, but people in despair, who just lost their loved ones, are susceptible to believe in anything and prefer to look for someone to blame, instead of believing in natural causes or mistakes of their close ones.
http://diatlow.pl/jurij-kriwoniszczenko/

December 18, 2018, 12:13:14 PM
Reply #18
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

..................................

I agree that there was no avalanche or movement of snow.  I also think that the avalanche theory can't be right. 

The only thing that I think might have been a possibility, is that some lumps of snow or ice were dislodged, possibly by the wind and rolled down and hit the tent.  But even this seems unlikely.  It was just a thought.

Let's argue logically?
Lumps have rolled down, have struck … that follows further? The man on duty left outside, has looked and has told that happens. It is all that could be. However I cannot present whence there snow lumps can undertake? About ice lumps it is possible not to speak at all. Above on a slope there is a same lifting which comes to an end with even more flat site of a place. There eaves because conditions do not give such possibility are not formed at all.
 



I also agree that after leaving the tent they would have realised that there was no avalanche coming and that they would not have left without their essential clothing.

In my mind I can only see two or possibly three possibilities:

1. Something extremely unusual and terrifying caused them to leave the tent and camp site without stopping to collect their essential clothing

This condition should be either real, or introduced in their consciousness so that they could not distinguish it from a reality. Are you agree with it?

2. They were forced out of the tent and down the slope by other people possibly armed

For this purpose these people should have 3 real conditions:
1.The Reason what so to arrive.
2.Unconditional possibility to get on this place
3.Unconditional possibility to find tent in those conditions that then were available
I do not know, how others, but I cannot find such possibilities, in detail having studied districts and logistics.


3. They went down the slope of their own accord.  Possibly intoxicated, possibly affected by some drug, or it was some stupid prank.

Let's look at the facts?
Examination has established that alcohol at them it is not revealed. At anybody from them it is not revealed.
Similarly it is not revealed drugs. Especially if to consider that it to receive drugs at that time it was almost impossible.
The jokes reminding what “all group to jump off from a skyscraper roof”  grin1 at that time too did not practise. Time was such that there were few means and possibilities to entertainments, and many different prospects in a science and life. Especially it concerned students of such universities, as UrPolInst.
To make such "jokes" without the necessary clothes too is not logical. It more reminds suicide, instead of jokes.


Even option 3 seems very unlikely to me.

Its probability as is small, as though all molecules of water in glass simultaneously would start to move upwards and water in glass has jumped up.  grin1

I agree that for them to leave the tent the way they did there would have had to have been a very real and significant threat, or they "all" believed there was a real and significant threat.  Also it would not have required all of the group initially to believe their lives were in danger.  It would only take the leaders.  It is possible that they may be able to convince the others rightly or wrongly of the risk.

There is one other possibility and that is "in fighting" within the group.  Some major fall out that sparked the events off.  Again I am not convinced by this but it is still a possible explanation.

December 19, 2018, 04:53:02 AM
Reply #19
Offline

WAB


I agree with all arguments which you here have resulted, but what you know about properties of infrasound and its feature for example to the given place?
Sounds interesting. Though I think that further research into the subject of infrasounds' influence on humans is required and experiments must be conducted, especially to determine if there are conditions for such an incident on Dyatlov Pass. Albeit, it's hard to believe anyone would conduct experiments on living organisms in our times. I don't think I ever heard of infrasounds having such a devastating effect on human psyche, to force all 9 of tourists to leave a tent in the middle of the night without vital equipment. But who knows, "there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy".

You correctly here have told All.
But in this section it is offtop. There is such section at a forum, http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg2389#new 
If we to discuss it to us it will be necessary to move there. I will shortly answer the basic points of this problem and if it is necessary to continue, let's move there.
1.   I specially was engaged in this hypothesis. On the basic scientific activity I am connected with space section of ergonomics. But data on that that is necessary for our studying there a little. It was necessary to develop knowledge. At first I have received consultation of the professor the Moscow state Lomonosov university Valery Gordienko (ResearcherID: B-1410-2013 http://www.researcherid.com/rid/B-1410-2013). Then on a place of events I attentively surveyed district for detection of the places demanded for occurrence such effect.
The first part of a hypothesis consisted that останец on pass where there is a memorial plate has the form of "boots".



This picture is made when I accompanied the American writer Donnie Eicher to Dyatlov pass and advised it at a writing it books «Dead Mountain» https://www.chroniclebooks.com/titles/dead-mountain.html .
Air stream at a flow of this rock should create whirlwinds which form such phenomenon, as "Kármán vortex street". At such sizes of a rock and its flow these whirlwinds very often contain frequencies which coincide with frequencies of a resonance of biorhythms of a brain of the person, those which oppress mentality.
1.The Second part of a hypothesis consisted that there is a series of parallel rocks,

   

It is a picture in half of height of lifting on mountain. The rock where there is a memorial plate is located most close to a shooting point.
Between these rocks there can be a resonance in the form of a standing wave of the same frequencies.
The sizes and conditions in both first these two parts of a hypothesis suit generation of the "necessary" frequencies. If to carry out necessary calculations.
4.However professor Gordienko considers that the capacity of a phenomenon received as a result of these processes not sufficient for this purpose that the effect would be notable enough.
Therefore it was necessary to find that that another that would be enough capacity and possessed the same properties.
5.This place can be found out on a place of events too. It was necessary to expand a little only searches in distance from that place where was tent. At first professor Gordienko at MSLU (2010) has told it, and then and Donnie Eicher has resulted opinion Dr. Al Bedard at NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (2013), that it is necessary to pay attention on torsion whirlwinds round mountain Holatchahl which bend around mountain on the right and at the left.



It is illustration from book Donnie Eicher «Dead Mountain». It is necessary to consider only that the whirlwind will be more thin behind the mountain and to extend at removal from it to the right and to the left.
However only it is not enough these whirlwinds for reception of the necessary effect. It is necessary also the amplifier of this phenomenon. That it would be necessary to find out it only to rise on a spur of mountain which the Lozva river separates the third and fourth right inflows. When I was understood on this spur, I have seen that the mountain circus of the third inflow can be that resonator which will strengthen generation of frequencies of the necessary range.
Unfortunately at this time I did not have a wide-angle objective and the left part of the circus has not entered into a shot.

   
 
On it a photo the summer kind from mountain on sources 2 and the third right inflows the Lozva river is shown. It is possible to assume that similar process can occur in a source of the second inflow.
In these hollows there is a process similar to volume that occurs in a kitchen microwave.



Here on this scheme the principle on which arise such acustic the phenomen is shown.
Only in a kitchen microwave and in mountain circuses there will be different frequencies and physical substances. In the microwave generator there will be electromagnetic fluctuations of the microwave oven, and in a source 3 inflows will be acoustic fluctuations over low frequencies. Capacities which there it is created by means of a wind, will be very big. I have considered that through an interval to the south of mountain in a current of second will pass 60 tons of air at speed of a wind of 15 metres per second. It will be only through a profile limited between tops of two mountains: the mountain Holatchahl and a height to the north of it.
For Donnie Eicher I have not managed to explain these features, and its advisers have not paid attention to these details though they are rather essential. Probably, the reason of our misunderstanding consisted that it was necessary to communicate in different national languages, and itself Donnie is the writer and the figure of cinema, instead of the scientist or the engineer. Therefore in its book it also was not reflected.
Here that I can shortly tell in a substantiation that I consider as the reason of all events on this place in 1959.


Quote
PS. You know, what there is site on Polish which writes on a theme of this case?
http://forum.fortyck.pl/topic/1156-tragedia-na-przeleczy-diatlowa-12-luty-1959-r/

I've been there a while ago, but recently they just post random photos from hikers' cameras and articles from this site... so I just visit this site.
I prefer another Polish site, whose author seems to believe in rocket theory. It's also a great site, because author knows Russian and had used a lot of great sources from Russian sites and books, and even translated original documents, like letters of tourists. Like this article for example, implying that Krivoschenko's brother apparently had believed in possibility of failed rocket launch from Kazakhstan, that supposedly was was going to reach Novaya Zemlya. His father believed that both Yuris were suddenly blinded by something (a detonation?), that's why they couldn't maintain a fire at the cedar tree.
For me, it doesn't sound believable, but people in despair, who just lost their loved ones, are susceptible to believe in anything and prefer to look for someone to blame, instead of believing in natural causes or mistakes of their close ones.
http://diatlow.pl/jurij-kriwoniszczenko/

Yes, I have seen the information on this site. Thanks that have given on its the reference, it will be added in my collection of foreign sites. Unfortunately there all the same that is on many other things, with copying of many errors and errors. On it I have found carrying over from a site https://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov-pass-incident/ , and I have found my comments and explanatories still in 2008 and 2009.
I think that the reference that relatives of the lost participants of Dyatlov group spoke are not the facts as they said only that was in use in the city of Sverdlovsk, and they did not use the initial information from a place where there were all events.
Brother Krivonishchenko could tell any words, but it is not the expert in rockets, therefore its data can be only its opinion and not be that that was actually. It is necessary to notice that «the rocket reason» is very much a popular belief in the city of Ekaterinburg, but is not truth. At the desire of Vladislav Karelin (the participant of searches of Dyatlov group) I have visited to archive of USSR rocket armies for this purpose what to receive the initial information on unique rocket start-up on February, 02nd 1959. All parametres of the rocket were such that it could not reach a place of Dyatlov group under no circumstances. It has been found on a falling place this very day, and this place is removed from a place of Dyatlov of group on 1800 km and the maximum range of this rocket there were 1200 km, and it has flown by only 980 km from a start place. Which too is removed from a place of Dyatlov group, almost on 2000 km. What or other starts of rockets in the USSR that day were not. And one more feature: Rocket start was at 14.28 (2:28 PM) while with probability in 99,99 % to 8:00 AM on February, 02nd 1959 all participants of Dyatlov group have already died.
By the way, as to rocket start to island Novaya Zemlya, it here at all at what. Because this start was not from Kazakhstan (probably he meant range Baikonur) and from Transbaikal (disctrict of the Chita city). And it has been started 3 or 4 years after there were events on Dyatlov pass.
Concerning mood of relatives and still some part of those who reads forums and writes on them, you have correctly noticed that they try is artificial to find whom the one who is guilty in  destruction of this group.

December 19, 2018, 04:58:53 AM
Reply #20
Offline

WAB



...........................................

I agree that for them to leave the tent the way they did there would have had to have been a very real and significant threat, or they "all" believed there was a real and significant threat.  Also it would not have required all of the group initially to believe their lives were in danger.  It would only take the leaders.  It is possible that they may be able to convince the others rightly or wrongly of the risk.

It is told as that not convincingly. I once again ask to weigh "price" of such decision how to cut tent and to leave it. As I think that it is equivalent to what to jump out of the plane at the big height, only that in salon light has gone out. It is simply conditional model of a situation.
They have left tent which was a unique place within where they could reach quickly where they could survive in those conditions that were during events.
Therefore there were no possibilities to "convince" what so to make. It could be made only unconsciously. Or, as I speak, in the Altered State of Consciousness (ASC). It exists such term in psychology.


There is one other possibility and that is "in fighting" within the group.  Some major fall out that sparked the events off.  Again I am not convinced by this but it is still a possible explanation.

I have understood that you have asked not so well. Please tell it in more details

December 19, 2018, 11:01:07 AM
Reply #21
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi WAB.  Your explanation of the infrasound and how such conditions may have arisen on the moubtain is very interesting and sounds credible.  I am not an expert on this subject so will need to read up on it.

What I meant by in fighting is that for some reason the group stared to argue and things got out of control and escalated into a life threatening situation.  If this had happened though I would have expected more of the group to have grabbed their clothes and footwear.

December 21, 2018, 10:35:11 AM
Reply #22
Offline

WAB


Hi WAB.  Your explanation of the infrasound and how such conditions may have arisen on the moubtain is very interesting and sounds credible.  I am not an expert on this subject so will need to read up on it.

I so think that it perfectly.
Only I have such offer:
1.Let's respect rules of this forum and with this discussion we will pass in relevant section of our forum. For example: http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.0
2.Or (that seems to me more correctly) we will open a new theme with the name, for example: “Discussion of a hypothesis of an infrasound in events with Dyatlov group” in that section.

What I meant by in fighting is that for some reason the group stared to argue and things got out of control and escalated into a life threatening situation.  If this had happened though I would have expected more of the group to have grabbed their clothes and footwear.

I ask to consider it from the same point of view, about I wrote in my answer № 12, on December, 15th, 2018, at 2:25:54 AM. Namely: “It is equivalent to that they he have jumped out of the plane at the big height.” (c)
I do not suppose this action also because that is why I know as similar occurs in the same groups. Even if there are what that contradictions in group and even if it occurs in the sharp form all understand that the “price” to such act is equal to impossibility survive at least to group part. All are in extreme conditions of environment and it operates very convincingly for this purpose, what any (I ask to pay attention to this term!) conflict has been extinguished quickly enough. All want live, even if than that are strongly dissatisfied.
And once again I ask to think over such aspect, as:
We again leave to oftop, because starts discuss questions connected with interpersonal mutual relations, instead of the avalanche theory.
I would like, what moderators as that have commented on this aspect.

********************************
I ask excuse me, but in a current of several weeks I cannot write at forum regularly.

December 22, 2018, 01:36:39 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi WAB.  Your explanation of the infrasound and how such conditions may have arisen on the moubtain is very interesting and sounds credible.  I am not an expert on this subject so will need to read up on it.

I so think that it perfectly.
Only I have such offer:
1.Let's respect rules of this forum and with this discussion we will pass in relevant section of our forum. For example: http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.0
2.Or (that seems to me more correctly) we will open a new theme with the name, for example: “Discussion of a hypothesis of an infrasound in events with Dyatlov group” in that section.

What I meant by in fighting is that for some reason the group stared to argue and things got out of control and escalated into a life threatening situation.  If this had happened though I would have expected more of the group to have grabbed their clothes and footwear.

I ask to consider it from the same point of view, about I wrote in my answer № 12, on December, 15th, 2018, at 2:25:54 AM. Namely: “It is equivalent to that they he have jumped out of the plane at the big height.” (c)
I do not suppose this action also because that is why I know as similar occurs in the same groups. Even if there are what that contradictions in group and even if it occurs in the sharp form all understand that the “price” to such act is equal to impossibility survive at least to group part. All are in extreme conditions of environment and it operates very convincingly for this purpose, what any (I ask to pay attention to this term!) conflict has been extinguished quickly enough. All want live, even if than that are strongly dissatisfied.
And once again I ask to think over such aspect, as:
We again leave to oftop, because starts discuss questions connected with interpersonal mutual relations, instead of the avalanche theory.
I would like, what moderators as that have commented on this aspect.

********************************
I ask excuse me, but in a current of several weeks I cannot write at forum regularly.

Ok I'm happy to discuss further in the relevant topic area.  Will do some more research on infra sound.

February 05, 2019, 02:28:35 PM
Reply #24
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav). As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.
Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?

It appears that this video is no longer available. It seems like a variation on the AVALANCHE THEORY anyway.  And it seems that most people rule out an avalanche as responsible for the EVENT.
DB

February 16, 2019, 01:17:29 PM
Reply #25
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


It's somewhat (I guess) similar to ice sled theory, only without an ice sled grin1
I don't know Russian, but I'm able to understand some of the things author was saying (I'm also a Slav). As far as I understand him, he thinks that the snow blown from the top of the mountain was gathering on the canvas of the tent. After some time, snow had become so heavy, that the ski pole (?) inside of the tent, that was supporting it broke, and canvas fell on the tourists. Damage some of them sustained came from the objects they were sleeping with. Zolotaryov had a camera laying on his chest, Dubinina roll of the film. Tibo was sleeping with his canteen under his head and it was supposed to be the source of his wound.

Personally, I find some issues with this theory. I rather don't believe that tourists sustained their wounds in the tent. Dubinina's wound was so heavy, that she probably wouldn't make it to the forest. Although I've read somewhere, that she could got her heart pierced later, by one her broken ribs, while she was putting on additional sweater.
Also, would the snow gathered on canvas be heavy enough to cause such damage to tourists? Also sounds doubtful. What are your thoughts?

I have slept in a tent that collapsed due to snow buildup. The sides sag in well before it collapses.  Also you are more likely to be smothered than injured.  And you would have to be tied up or paralized to be smothered I suspect.  I don’t think it’s particularly credible that this is what happened to them.  Even if it had there is no reason to leave camp site.

You hit the nail on the head here  ; Yes in any AVALANCHE situation you are more likely to be SMOTHERED than INJURED. Iam surprised that so many people still harp on about the AVALANCHE THEORY, when so many things point to it as being virtually impossible for an Avalanche of any sort  to be involved in the Dyatlov Mystery.
DB