August 20, 2019, 07:49:51 PM
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Author Topic: My culprit - Thermobaric bombs dropped on the group on purpose  (Read 1551 times)

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January 12, 2019, 08:39:10 AM
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Dominov


Hi guys

I'm doing a lot of research on the Dyatlov case at the moment, and after a while I came across this bomb which was developed at that time by the Russians and the Americans: The thermobaric bomb.

Read what it does to the body: Suffcation or massive internal injuries due to the enormous shockwave.


Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon

This would also explain the burned tree tops (Ivanov). The ramification of this is: They were killed intentionally. At the slope of the Dead Mountain they were a perfect target. But the first time they (whoever «they» are) missed.
They kept bombing until everybody was dead. Some died of suffocation (bombs too far away to do physical damage), the rav4 probably died of a massive shockwave caused by a close detonation so strong that even eyes popped out of their sockets (Dubinina + Zorotaryov).
Some may indeed have died of hypothermia being already weakend by the bombing.

Bombing from planes? Not necessarily. The attackers could have used rocket launchers or mortars.

My theory: They were killed by a military force, either American or Russian. They were a military target. Why? «The controlled delivery: radioactive Clothes»? I don't think so. Krivischenkos Jacket was radioactive because he worked at Mayak, where a well-known nuclear accident took place in 1957.

I think they came too close to a secret military facility, a Russian facility. They were eliminated. And maybe a cynical officer took the chance of testing newly developed weapons in the wild.

Should we rethink picture Nr. 34?

Just my too cents.

Dominov

January 12, 2019, 01:02:39 PM
Reply #1
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sarapuk

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Bomb = Blast.  But there doesnt appear to be much evidence of a Blast of some kind.  The Dyatlov Group were well educated and organised, why would they be allowed to go near any Secret Establishment  !  ? 
DB

January 12, 2019, 03:24:19 PM
Reply #2
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi guys

I'm doing a lot of research on the Dyatlov case at the moment, and after a while I came across this bomb which was developed at that time by the Russians and the Americans: The thermobaric bomb.

Read what it does to the body: Suffcation or massive internal injuries due to the enormous shockwave.


Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon

This would also explain the burned tree tops (Ivanov). The ramification of this is: They were killed intentionally. At the slope of the Dead Mountain they were a perfect target. But the first time they (whoever «they» are) missed.
They kept bombing until everybody was dead. Some died of suffocation (bombs too far away to do physical damage), the rav4 probably died of a massive shockwave caused by a close detonation so strong that even eyes popped out of their sockets (Dubinina + Zorotaryov).
Some may indeed have died of hypothermia being already weakend by the bombing.

Bombing from planes? Not necessarily. The attackers could have used rocket launchers or mortars.

My theory: They were killed by a military force, either American or Russian. They were a military target. Why? «The controlled delivery: radioactive Clothes»? I don't think so. Krivischenkos Jacket was radioactive because he worked at Mayak, where a well-known nuclear accident took place in 1957.

I think they came too close to a secret military facility, a Russian facility. They were eliminated. And maybe a cynical officer took the chance of testing newly developed weapons in the wild.

Should we rethink picture Nr. 34?

Just my too cents.

Dominov

I am investigating a similar theory, but for a low yield tactical nuclear weapon(s).  I have also considered this type of weapon as a possibility.

What are the characteristic of this type of weapon in terms of range vs over pressure from the shock wave?  What sortof explosive yield?

For the rav 4 can you explain how they received such significant injuries with no shrapnel or metal fragments, and no blast damage to the surrounding trees?

January 13, 2019, 04:27:32 AM
Reply #3
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Dominov


Yes, the missing signs of the blast...
I try to explain that.

Zorotaryov did what every soldier (and he was a combat veteran of the Second Word War) would do in a bombing situation. He took cover.  But the ravine was the worst place to be, I guess. The ravine unfortunately canalised and amplfied the shockwave (of the third bomb).

Probably there were fir needles all over the place. But the search team wouldn't see them because there was plenty of snow even in May 1959. Make no mistake, these Ural trees are tough. They are used to strong gales and extreme conditions.

The bombs didn't hit the ground. So there weren't any impact craters.

Also, strange grey liquid frozen on Doroschenko's mouth.
Also, reported lights over Dead Mountain combined with strange reflections on the hovering clouds. (thermo-baric bombs)
Also, complexion of body skin, not burned but roasted.
Also, gray hair on the bodies, roasted.
Also, burned tree tops.

I bet we would find the chemicals in the soil even today.

regards

Dominov


January 13, 2019, 05:25:46 AM
Reply #4
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes, the missing signs of the blast...
I try to explain that.

Zorotaryov did what every soldier (and he was a combat veteran of the Second Word War) would do in a bombing situation. He took cover.  But the ravine was the worst place to be, I guess. The ravine unfortunately canalised and amplfied the shockwave (of the third bomb).

Probably there were fir needles all over the place. But the search team wouldn't see them because there was plenty of snow even in May 1959. Make no mistake, these Ural trees are tough. They are used to strong gales and extreme conditions.

The bombs didn't hit the ground. So there weren't any impact craters.

Also, strange grey liquid frozen on Doroschenko's mouth.
Also, reported lights over Dead Mountain combined with strange reflections on the hovering clouds. (thermo-baric bombs)
Also, complexion of body skin, not burned but roasted.
Also, gray hair on the bodies, roasted.
Also, burned tree tops.

I bet we would find the chemicals in the soil even today.

regards

Dominov

Parsonally I think it could be a strong possibility.  Although I doubt it was a deliberate act

January 14, 2019, 09:07:35 AM
Reply #5
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Dominov


I like to add some more thoughts to corroborate my theory.

Zorotaryov is the key to everything. He was a soldier und knew exacty what to do if you are under enemy fire: Take cover in a trench (the ravine). The first location under the cedar tree was not safe. The fire gave away their position! You could see that fire from the surrounding slopes from where the attackers launched their deadly payloads. The second bomb exploded very close to the forest edge inflicting minor or major injuries to some members of the group. Maybe the lookout who sat in the tree fell to the ground. I guess this was Doroschenko.

After the second bomb Zorotaryov realised that they were or have become a military target and that they were an easy target sitting next to a fire. So he decided to retreat to the ravine together with the ones who were still alive. The ravine would hide and protect them. There he avoided the obvious thing to do: lighting another fire. Although it was freezing cold they didn't light a second fire! A fire was so crucial for staying alive but they didn't light one. They preferred putting on clothes from the deceased colleagues in order to not freeze to death.

Zorotaryov's strategy was to stay low until the bombing attack was over. In the meantime Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov tried to get back to the tent. They were weakend, unproperly dressed and didn't make it. They died of hypothermia. Slobodin already had some cranial trauma. At some point he just fainted and died.

The attackers launched a third bomb either to make sure that everybody was dead or because they had observed the retreat to the ravine with binoculars. This explosion sent down a massive, compressed and amplified shock wave down the ravine killing all four instantly. Injuries: broken rips, internal bleedings, missing eyeballs (they popped out or just desintegrated). These are typical injuries caused by strong shock waves.

No, there weren't any impact craters because the thermobaric bombs exploded mid-air leaving no obivous traces of an explosion. Investigator Ivanov rememberd the burned tree tops. But he misinterpreted the cause of these burned tree tops. He believed in the UFO theory. He isn't to blame for that because he dealt with a new and unknown weapon that seemed pretty alien at that time.

Possible reasons for the attack:
- eliminating witnesses of a secret weapon test
- eliminating deserters who were on a shuttle mission to the U.S. (Remember Krivonischenko accusing his mates of treason...)
- eliminating potential spies
- testing a new weapon on mobile targets...

After the incident the military restricted access to the area for 3! years: Plenty of time to clear that mess up or just cover it up.

One final thought: Why did the very experienced Dyatlov miss the Pass? Maybe because it was closed and access restricted by the military?

regards

Dominov

January 14, 2019, 12:38:05 PM
Reply #6
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sarapuk

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But why would the Dyatlov Group have been allowed to go into an area where weapons testing took place, or was a secret off limits area  !  ?  That would not make much sense.
DB

January 14, 2019, 11:32:22 PM
Reply #7
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Monika


Hello Dominov,

I'm glad you also added your theory.
Although I think the cause was unknown physical phenomenon (although it also does not explain all the details that are related to the tragedy), I do not totally reject also your theory.

I have a few comments on your statements:

As you wrote: „They avoided the obvious thing to do: lighting another fire at the ravine“
- they did not do it at the ravine probably because there was a strong wind. The strong wind was probably the reason why they also moved from the cedar to the ravine. The fire could not work for a long time.
The fact that they made a fire under the cedar rather suggests they were not being haunted by anyone.

„Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov tried to get back to the tent.“
- If they were threatened by something, they would not go back to the tent.

„Investigator Ivanov remembered the burned tree tops. But he misinterpreted the cause of these burned tree tops. He believed in the UFO theory“.
- He claimed that the tourists were targeted by a unknown weapon from the air. Perhaps his claim was based on the fact that the burned tops were only on the trees in the area of fire settlement. But he did not make it clear whether the attacker was an army or an alien.
I have to admit that the fact that burned top of the trees only at the nearest area of the fire settling is really strange and I cannot imagine how this could happen.. But somehow I do not believe in targeted disposal by some "ray" from the air.

“After the incident the military restricted access to the area for 3! Years”:
- it is logical because the cause of the disaster remained unknown and they did not want to risk that it would be repeated. This might point to the fact that the cause was an unknown physical phenomenon, and also because of the bad reputation of that place (Mansi have avoided this place in the past), it was a real possibility that it would happen again.

“One final thought: Why did the very experienced Dyatlov miss the Pass? Maybe because it was closed and access restricted by the military?”
- If this place was closed by the army, they would certainly mention it in their diary. Also, their trip was planned for months ahead and approved by the University and Sports Clubs. In addition, they have only departed from the original route minimally.



January 15, 2019, 01:56:14 AM
Reply #8
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Dominov


Quote
But why would the Dyatlov Group have been allowed to go into an area where weapons testing took place, or was a secret off limits area  !  ?  That would not make much sense.

Assuming they weren't allowed to enter this area we must think from the point of view of Russian people living in the time of the Cold War. Everything was a war zone. Military was everywhere. Everything was restricted and top secret. Military was nothing unusual but a daily setting people were used to. There were so many stop and danger signs everywhere. Dyatlov didn't want to fall behind schedule. So he decided to bypass the restricted area. He thought that this restriction would only apply for the pass not the entire area behind it. So they naively entered a test site for thermobaric air bombs. And anyway, who would open fire with such weather conditions? Noone saw them setting foot on the slope of the Dead Mountain. The were hidden behind stormy drifts of snow. And noone saw them pitching up their tent. But eventually the storm subsided.

Then the first test bomb was launched toward the slope of the Dead Mountain. People inside the tent were undressing and preparing for the night. The bomb exploded 50 meters above ground but too far away from the tent to do real damage. First the Djatlow gourp heard a massive bang followed by a shockwave. Panic. It was hard to breathe because the bomb absorbed a lot of air. Shock and awe effect. Now they knew they were in the middle of a military test site. They had to leave this place immediately. Next bomb detonates. No time to put on shoes. No time to plan the descent. No time to grab the Finnish knives. They began their descent to the next safe place: The forest where they were protected from the wind and the frostiness.

Now the miltary saw them hasting down the slope. Who were they, what were they up to? Spies? Witnesses of a secret military test? Trespassers! Noone had told them about the ski tourists passing through that area. Did Dyatlov even hand in the route? And anyway, who cared about some students wandering through a godforsaken region at the back of beyond? It was the time of the Cold War. Tensions were extremly high. Military staff was under extreme pressure. The commanding officer decided that these people had to be eliminated. I have described what happened next.

Quote
If they were threatened by something, they would not go back to the tent.
Maybe Kolmogorava didn't want to go back to the tent. She probably wanted the attackers to cease fire, waving and shouting. She was under shock after Doroschenko and Krivonischenko died. Slobodin followed her. But he was injured and died. Djatlov moved between the cedar, the ravine and also wanted to help Slobodin and Kolmogorova. He was terribly exhausted.

Why do I think that other theories do not explain the incident.

Avalanche? Never. I come from the Swiss mountains. I know under which circumstances avalanches go down. Never on that slightly inclined slope of the Dead Mountain. The bombs may have caused some snow slabs. But nothing spectacular.

Aliens? Oh well.... Slaughter some tourists for fun? Predators?

KGB/CIA? Some bullets would have done the job.

Infrarsound. Yes you might be scared. But that won't make you ran out in your certain death.

Gravity fluctuations? People fly? That has never been observed. If that ever happens, may God be with us.

Yeti, Menk? 7 guys, three finnish knives. Doroschenko who put a bear to fiight on another tour? There is a chance that they are cryptids but why should they attack people if they managed to stay away from cameras and curious glances for so long.

Ball Lightning? They would have to be intelligent to get all nine people in a row. I don't think so.

Winterstorm and lightnings? Hmmm, would you seek shelter under trees or rather in a ravine? Ravine... The probabilty of being hit by a lightning is not very high and lightnings cause very characteristic injuries. The lightning would not hit the ravine if there are plenty of trees standing around.

regards

Dominov
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:23:21 AM by Dominov »

January 15, 2019, 02:07:37 AM
Reply #9
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Star man

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But why would the Dyatlov Group have been allowed to go into an area where weapons testing took place, or was a secret off limits area  !  ?  That would not make much sense.

They probably would not have been allowed to go there.  But is it not possible that they did not have perfect control of all people movements and that not all government departments knew who was going where?  In simple terms they made a mistake and got it wrong?

January 15, 2019, 02:21:04 AM
Reply #10
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Star man

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Quote
But why would the Dyatlov Group have been allowed to go into an area where weapons testing took place, or was a secret off limits area  !  ?  That would not make much sense.

Assuming they weren't allowed to enter this area we must think from the point of view of Russian people living in the time of the Cold War. Everything was a war zone. Military was everywhere. Everything was restricted and top secret. Military was nothing unusual but a daily setting people were used to. There were so many stop and danger signs everywhere. Dyatlov didn't want to fall behind schedule. So he decided to bypass the restricted area. He thought that this restriction would only apply for the pass not the entire area behind it. So they naively entered a test site for thermobaric air bombs. And anyway, who would open fire with such weather conditions? Noone saw them setting foot on the slope of the Dead Mountain. The were hidden behind stormy drifts of snow. And noone saw them pitching up their tent. But eventually the storm subsided.

Then the first test bomb was launched toward the slope of the Dead Mountain. People inside the tent were undressing and preparing for the night. The bomb explodes 50 meters above ground but too far away from the tent to do real damage. First the Djatlow gourp heard a massive bang followed by a shockwave. Panic. It was hard to breathe because the bomb absorbed a lot of air. Shock and awe effect. Now they knew they were in the middle of a military test site. They had to leave this place immediately. Next bomb detonates. No time to put on shoes. No time to plan the descent. No time to grab the Finnish knives. They began their descend to the next safe place: The forest where they were protected from the wind and the frostiness.

Now the miltary saw them hasting down the slope. Who were they, what were they up to? Spies? Witnesses of a secret military test? Trespassers! Noone had told them about the ski tourists passing through that area. Did Dyatlov even hand in the route? And anyway, who cared about some students wandering through a godforsaken region at the back of beyond? It was the time of the Cold War. Tensions were extremly high. Military staff was under extreme pressure. The commanding officer decided that these people had to eliminated. I have described what happened next.

Quote
If they were threatened by something, they would not go back to the tent.
Maybe Kolmogorava didn't want to go back to the tent. She probably wanted the attackers to cease fire, waving and shouting. She was under shock after Doroschenko and Krivonischenko died. Slobodin followed her. But he was injured and died. Djatlov moved between the cedar, the ravine and also wanted to help Slobodin and Kolmogorova. He was terribly exhausted.

Why do I think that other theories do not explain the incident.

Avalanche? Never. I come from the Swiss mountains. I know under which circumstances avalanches go down. Never on that slightly inclined slope of the Dead Mountain. The bombs may have caused some snow slabs. But nothing spectacular.

Aliens? Oh well.... Slaughter some tourists for fun? Predators?

KGB/CIA? Some bullets would have done the job.

Infrarsound. Yes you might be scared. But that won't make you ran out in your certain death.

Gravity fluctuations? People fly? That has never been observed. If that ever happens, may God be with us.

Yeti, Menk? 7 guys, three finnish knives. Doroschenko who put a bear to fiight on another tour? There is a chance that they are cryptids but why should they attack people if they managed to stay away from cameras and curious glances for so long.

Ball Lightning? They would have to be intelligent to get all nine people in a row. I don't think so.

Winterstorm and lightnings? Hmmm, would you seek shelter under trees or rather in a ravine? Ravine... The probabilty of being hit by a lightning is not very high and lightnings cause very characteristic injuries. The lightning would not hit the ravine if there are plenty of trees standing around.

regards

Dominov

Ivanov stated that the scorch marks on the trees were not symmetrical. Almost like a beam had hit them.

Why wasn’t tent destroyed?

What is equivalent TNT yields of these devices and shock wave characteristics?

Why was Kolevatov hugging Semyon when found?

I think you need a better explanation for why the three on the slope went back to the tent given the danger

January 15, 2019, 03:14:06 AM
Reply #11
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Dominov


Quote
Ivanov stated that the scorch marks on the trees were not symmetrical. Almost like a beam had hit them.

I guess the thermobaric weapons were far from being perfect and very experimental. Not all chemicals exploded, some drops just caught fire burning flesh. Many burnings were found on the bodies and even burned hair (Doroschenko). I don't think he incinerated his hair in the camp fire. He was burned sitting in the tree.

The scorch marks were assymetrical? Did he notice that from the ground or from the air?
Can you elaborate on this? Why didn't they take pictures of this marks???

Quote
What is equivalent TNT yields of these devices and shock wave characteristics?
I don't know. Pretty lethal.

Quote
Why was Kolevatov hugging Semyon when found?
I don't know. By accident? A last hug before you die? The attempt of protecting him?

Quote
I think you need a better explanation for why the three on the slope went back to the tent given the danger.
I can't explain everything ;) You know, there was a deadly threat, people died, the survivors panicked, were shocked, exhausted, suffered from extreme cold and stopped acting rationally.

regards

Dominov

January 15, 2019, 05:59:51 AM
Reply #12
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
Ivanov stated that the scorch marks on the trees were not symmetrical. Almost like a beam had hit them.

I guess the thermobaric weapons were far from being perfect and very experimental. Not all chemicals exploded, some drops just caught fire burning flesh. Many burnings were found on the bodies and even burned hair (Doroschenko). I don't think he incinerated his hair in the camp fire. He was burned sitting in the tree.

The scorch marks were assymetrical? Did he notice that from the ground or from the air?
Can you elaborate on this? Why didn't they take pictures of this marks???

Quote
What is equivalent TNT yields of these devices and shock wave characteristics?
I don't know. Pretty lethal.

Quote
Why was Kolevatov hugging Semyon when found?
I don't know. By accident? A last hug before you die? The attempt of protecting him?

Quote
I think you need a better explanation for why the three on the slope went back to the tent given the danger.
I can't explain everything ;) You know, there was a deadly threat, people died, the survivors panicked, were shocked, exhausted, suffered from extreme cold and stopped acting rationally.

regards

Dominov

I don’t know where Ivanov was standing when he saw the scorch marks but he did comment on them not being uniform.

There is a good section on this forum on shock wave characteristics under physiology of death. Have a look.

It appears that Kolevatov did not suffer significant injuries in ravine like the others so it’s difficult to explain shock wave there.

Personally I think the military test gone wrong is a good idea, but the difficult thing is pulling all the details together

January 15, 2019, 07:35:40 AM
Reply #13
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Dominov


Quote
There is a good section on this forum on shock wave characteristics under physiology of death. Have a look.

It appears that Kolevatov did not suffer significant injuries in ravine like the others so it’s difficult to explain shock wave there.

Personally I think the military test gone wrong is a good idea, but the difficult thing is pulling all the details together

The injuries of a shockwave can differ depending on how it strikes the victims. Who was standing, who was sitting or laying on the floor? Kolevatov might just have been knocked out and died of hypothermia. I believe that there is only one cause of death for the rav4 although the injuries are quite different. And it's the same reason that made them leave their tent, walk 1.5 km downhill (a very long distance given these conditions) and take shelter under the cedar tree. Something was extremly dangerous. You couldn't fight it. First you could just wait for it to pass. But then this threat became aware of the Djatlov group and turned against them. For me this is a clear indication that humans were involved. And technology, human technology, weapon technology.

regards

Dominov

January 15, 2019, 12:35:28 PM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quoted from Dominov ;

[[  Assuming they weren't allowed to enter this area we must think from the point of view of Russian people living in the time of the Cold War. Everything was a war zone. Military was everywhere. Everything was restricted and top secret. Military was nothing unusual but a daily setting people were used to. There were so many stop and danger signs everywhere. Dyatlov didn't want to fall behind schedule. So he decided to bypass the restricted area. He thought that this restriction would only apply for the pass not the entire area behind it. So they naively entered a test site for thermobaric air bombs. And anyway, who would open fire with such weather conditions? Noone saw them setting foot on the slope of the Dead Mountain. The were hidden behind stormy drifts of snow. And noone saw them pitching up their tent. But eventually the storm subsided.  ]]

Everything was not a war zone during The Cold War.  Military was not everywhere. Not everything was restricted and top secret. I hardly think that a distance of a mile or so would be considered a safe distance for people if such weapons were being tested. Therefore your theory is highly unlikely.  The Dyatlov Group were well organised.  What they encountered was probably something extraordinary.
DB

January 15, 2019, 12:59:32 PM
Reply #15
Offline

Dominov


Quoted from Dominov ;

[[  Assuming they weren't allowed to enter this area we must think from the point of view of Russian people living in the time of the Cold War. Everything was a war zone. Military was everywhere. Everything was restricted and top secret. Military was nothing unusual but a daily setting people were used to. There were so many stop and danger signs everywhere. Dyatlov didn't want to fall behind schedule. So he decided to bypass the restricted area. He thought that this restriction would only apply for the pass not the entire area behind it. So they naively entered a test site for thermobaric air bombs. And anyway, who would open fire with such weather conditions? Noone saw them setting foot on the slope of the Dead Mountain. The were hidden behind stormy drifts of snow. And noone saw them pitching up their tent. But eventually the storm subsided.  ]]

Everything was not a war zone during The Cold War.  Military was not everywhere. Not everything was restricted and top secret. I hardly think that a distance of a mile or so would be considered a safe distance for people if such weapons were being tested. Therefore your theory is highly unlikely.  The Dyatlov Group were well organised.  What they encountered was probably something extraordinary.

I mean: The Cold War was in their heads. The Communist Party was in their heads. The military was in their heads. They themselves were part of military and secret developments. Everything was directed towards war, towards the benefit of the Sowjetunion. Studying meant contributing to the superiority of the Sowjetunion. That's what I mean. But therefore everything military, everything secret, everything forbidden was quite common. It didn't matter that much. Stop and warnings signs didn't matter that much. It was daily business. So why not ignore one of the million stop signs?

They were part of it. So why should they be afraid of anything? They believed to be one big community of  Towaritschs supporting the same cause. Yes, the world inside and outside was a war zone. But people stopped caring. I'm talking about the psychological and mental disposition of ppl living at that time.

If everything was terrible, nothing was terrible.


regards

Dominov

January 15, 2019, 04:05:42 PM
Reply #16
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Sarapuk does have a point about where they went though.

Why was the cedar tree more safe than the camp site?  It was just as exposed as the tent? If they had just dropped one device why go where they went? Why not go over the top of the mountain 300 metres up instead of down?

January 16, 2019, 05:48:27 AM
Reply #17
Offline

Dominov


The could not stay in the tent. They had to leave it immediately. Yea, the big question is why.

Where would we go to? To a place where we can light a lifesaving fire. Fire needs wood. So the survival instinct would lead us to the forest on the shortest way possible. Downhill as fast as possible. They also cut or broke a lot of green twigs around the cedar tree. They probably wanted to build a tent with twigs. Where were these twigs? Probably they were blown away by something. Some of them were found in the den.

The forest was the best place to survive for some hours. But they were underdressed. They could survive for 3 to 6 hours at longest. Sooner or later they had to get back to the tent, to their boots and clothes. So some tried to find out if the threat on the slope was still present. They climbed the tree to look out. It seems that the threat on the slope persisted for several hours. Otherwise they would have returned. I doubt that a military excercise lasts several hours. So this is a weak spot of my theory, I admit.

Could this danger be an animal? A bear or a pack of wolves? No, animals would have plundered the food in the tent. If animals chased them away from the tent some might have been hurt or bitten. No such injuries were found. And they wouldn't have made an «uneventful» descent, they would have run in panic. And anyway Doroschenko once chase away a bear. They would have tried that first with good chances of success.

So what was that persisting threat on the mountain? Soldiers who threatened to kill them? The search team stated that they didn't find unknown footprints next to the tent. Lightnings? A winter thunderstorm doesn't last that long. In case of winter lightnings the tent would have provided the same level of protection as the forest.

That threat on the hill was more frightning than the prospect of dying of hypothermia. Facing this threat meant sudden death. So they stayed away from it as long as it was in the proximity of the tent. In the end some may have decided that it was better dying with a fight or they knew that the threat was no longer present. At that time some had already died.

But what the heck was going on there around the tent on the Dead Mountain? We might never know. But I think the the decision to go the forest was reasonable and helped them survive for several hours whereas going back to the tent too early would have meant their certain death.

You can go nuts thinking about that incident... and in the end you even start believing in aliens ;)

January 16, 2019, 08:58:34 AM
Reply #18
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The could not stay in the tent. They had to leave it immediately. Yea, the big question is why.

Where would we go to? To a place where we can light a lifesaving fire. Fire needs wood. So the survival instinct would lead us to the forest on the shortest way possible. Downhill as fast as possible. They also cut or broke a lot of green twigs around the cedar tree. They probably wanted to build a tent with twigs. Where were these twigs? Probably they were blown away by something. Some of them were found in the den.

The forest was the best place to survive for some hours. But they were underdressed. They could survive for 3 to 6 hours at longest. Sooner or later they had to get back to the tent, to their boots and clothes. So some tried to find out if the threat on the slope was still present. They climbed the tree to look out. It seems that the threat on the slope persisted for several hours. Otherwise they would have returned. I doubt that a military excercise lasts several hours. So this is a weak spot of my theory, I admit.

Could this danger be an animal? A bear or a pack of wolves? No, animals would have plundered the food in the tent. If animals chased them away from the tent some might have been hurt or bitten. No such injuries were found. And they wouldn't have made an «uneventful» descent, they would have run in panic. And anyway Doroschenko once chase away a bear. They would have tried that first with good chances of success.

So what was that persisting threat on the mountain? Soldiers who threatened to kill them? The search team stated that they didn't find unknown footprints next to the tent. Lightnings? A winter thunderstorm doesn't last that long. In case of winter lightnings the tent would have provided the same level of protection as the forest.

That threat on the hill was more frightning than the prospect of dying of hypothermia. Facing this threat meant sudden death. So they stayed away from it as long as it was in the proximity of the tent. In the end some may have decided that it was better dying with a fight or they knew that the threat was no longer present. At that time some had already died.

But what the heck was going on there around the tent on the Dead Mountain? We might never know. But I think the the decision to go the forest was reasonable and helped them survive for several hours whereas going back to the tent too early would have meant their certain death.

You can go nuts thinking about that incident... and in the end you even start believing in aliens ;)

Yes it is certainly a very fascinating mystery.

Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

I think the devil is in the detail with this mystery. Problem is facts are few.

I have a hypothesis based on military accident but I still need to work out some details.

January 16, 2019, 11:59:42 AM
Reply #19
Offline

Dominov


Quote
Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

Fascinating question.

I believe that Semyon acted according to the military training he had. He survived WW2. Only 3% of his generation survived this war. He was a survivor. First he took cover. The ravine was a natural trench for him. Then he probably built a nest of the wounded. He avoided to get wet sitting or lying on the ground. So he built a mat with twigs and clothes. Never get wet out in the wild! This is the first rule for survivors. He brought the wounded to that place. Maybe he was carrying Kolevatov at the moment of their death. This looks like a hug to us when we look at the pictures of the bodies in the ravine. But it is actually a method of transporting wounded soldiers, even today. Maybe Lyudmila was close to death. So he decided that the life of the helper is more important than the life of the wounded. This is an important rule for every military paramedic. (I was one. :)). He took her coat and her hat in order to survive. Seems brutal but necessary.

But then they all died in an instant.

And then again... I don't know.

regards

Dominov
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 12:11:34 PM by Dominov »

January 16, 2019, 04:02:36 PM
Reply #20
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

Fascinating question.

I believe that Semyon acted according to the military training he had. He survived WW2. Only 3% of his generation survived this war. He was a survivor. First he took cover. The ravine was a natural trench for him. Then he probably built a nest of the wounded. He avoided to get wet sitting or lying on the ground. So he built a mat with twigs and clothes. Never get wet out in the wild! This is the first rule for survivors. He brought the wounded to that place. Maybe he was carrying Kolevatov at the moment of their death. This looks like a hug to us when we look at the pictures of the bodies in the ravine. But it is actually a method of transporting wounded soldiers, even today. Maybe Lyudmila was close to death. So he decided that the life of the helper is more important than the life of the wounded. This is an important rule for every military paramedic. (I was one. :)). He took her coat and her hat in order to survive. Seems brutal but necessary.

But then they all died in an instant.

And then again... I don't know.

regards

Dominov

It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy  bang1

The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.

January 17, 2019, 12:11:34 AM
Reply #21
Offline

Monika


Quote
Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

Fascinating question.

I believe that Semyon acted according to the military training he had. He survived WW2. Only 3% of his generation survived this war. He was a survivor. First he took cover. The ravine was a natural trench for him. Then he probably built a nest of the wounded. He avoided to get wet sitting or lying on the ground. So he built a mat with twigs and clothes. Never get wet out in the wild! This is the first rule for survivors. He brought the wounded to that place. Maybe he was carrying Kolevatov at the moment of their death. This looks like a hug to us when we look at the pictures of the bodies in the ravine. But it is actually a method of transporting wounded soldiers, even today. Maybe Lyudmila was close to death. So he decided that the life of the helper is more important than the life of the wounded. This is an important rule for every military paramedic. (I was one. :)). He took her coat and her hat in order to survive. Seems brutal but necessary.

But then they all died in an instant.

And then again... I don't know.

regards

Dominov

It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy  bang1

The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.


Hello,
I have a few possible answers to your questions, of course, I'm open to other options as well.

„It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy „
-  If I look at a 3D model of Vasilii Zyadik Vasilii Zyadik (https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik), of course, if it was properly drawn, it is clear that they were lying next to each other, and after the snow had faded, Ljuda body shifted a little bit from them. It looks as Kolevatov (the last alive person) was lying beside the Zolotarev, he knew he was dying, but he did not want to die alone, at least he wanted to get a little warmer.
The reason why Zolotarev had Ljuda hat and coat: Given the similarity of the Zolotarev and Ljuda injuries, it is likely that both were injured at the same time, but before the injury, each of them was otherwise turned towards the "attack" direction. But Ljuda had a damaged heart as a result of broken ribs, and it is clear she had to die before Zolotarev. So they took her clothes to make Zolotarev warmer.

„The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.“
- Rustem probably just shuffles his shoes before going to sleep when it start...and only one boot was put on. Or when it started, he has the time to take only one boot. This also proves that they all had to flee immediately from the tent. The reason of Zolotarev with camera around his neck - he had to have it before the event started. If Rustem did not have the time to slipper both shoe, Zolotarev did not have the time to put his camera also.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?
- to see from above what is happening near the tent. Let's not forget that their main goal was to get boots and clothing as soon as possible. If around the tent was still threatening conditions, they could not go back.
It seems to me, as the danger threatened them only near the tent and inside the tent. This would contradict the theories of human/alien attack, haunted missile, and poisonous air.

January 17, 2019, 02:29:26 AM
Reply #22
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.


Answer to the first question: It tells us that the nine people did not want to leave their tent and had not planned to do so. They were forced to leave.

Answer to the second question: Because they tried to escape their attackers. The damage they suffered to their hands testify to their desperation.

January 17, 2019, 04:49:37 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.


Answer to the first question: It tells us that the nine people did not want to leave their tent and had not planned to do so. They were forced to leave.

Answer to the second question: Because they tried to escape their attackers. The damage they suffered to their hands testify to their desperation.[/u]

The one felt boot tells us that he was either putting his boots on or taking them off of and he didn’t have time to finish.  It tells us he had to leave without his other boot.  It doesn’t tell us anything about why they had to leave the camp.  It may suggest that there was a limited warning allowing him to go for his foot wear.  I suspect this was the case, given that several others such as Lyuda had several warm layers on but not their shoes.  Lyuda had her fur hat and coat. I suspect there was something going on that caused them to go outside to see.

Why climb a tree to escape your attackers. The attackers could easily climb up after you? Or shoot you etc. Unless the threat could not climb up?


January 17, 2019, 04:58:18 AM
Reply #24
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

Fascinating question.

I believe that Semyon acted according to the military training he had. He survived WW2. Only 3% of his generation survived this war. He was a survivor. First he took cover. The ravine was a natural trench for him. Then he probably built a nest of the wounded. He avoided to get wet sitting or lying on the ground. So he built a mat with twigs and clothes. Never get wet out in the wild! This is the first rule for survivors. He brought the wounded to that place. Maybe he was carrying Kolevatov at the moment of their death. This looks like a hug to us when we look at the pictures of the bodies in the ravine. But it is actually a method of transporting wounded soldiers, even today. Maybe Lyudmila was close to death. So he decided that the life of the helper is more important than the life of the wounded. This is an important rule for every military paramedic. (I was one. :)). He took her coat and her hat in order to survive. Seems brutal but necessary.

But then they all died in an instant.

And then again... I don't know.

regards

Dominov

It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy  bang1

The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.


Hello,
I have a few possible answers to your questions, of course, I'm open to other options as well.

„It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy „
-  If I look at a 3D model of Vasilii Zyadik Vasilii Zyadik (https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik), of course, if it was properly drawn, it is clear that they were lying next to each other, and after the snow had faded, Ljuda body shifted a little bit from them. It looks as Kolevatov (the last alive person) was lying beside the Zolotarev, he knew he was dying, but he did not want to die alone, at least he wanted to get a little warmer.
The reason why Zolotarev had Ljuda hat and coat: Given the similarity of the Zolotarev and Ljuda injuries, it is likely that both were injured at the same time, but before the injury, each of them was otherwise turned towards the "attack" direction. But Ljuda had a damaged heart as a result of broken ribs, and it is clear she had to die before Zolotarev. So they took her clothes to make Zolotarev warmer.

„The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.“
- Rustem probably just shuffles his shoes before going to sleep when it start...and only one boot was put on. Or when it started, he has the time to take only one boot. This also proves that they all had to flee immediately from the tent. The reason of Zolotarev with camera around his neck - he had to have it before the event started. If Rustem did not have the time to slipper both shoe, Zolotarev did not have the time to put his camera also.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?
- to see from above what is happening near the tent. Let's not forget that their main goal was to get boots and clothing as soon as possible. If around the tent was still threatening conditions, they could not go back.
It seems to me, as the danger threatened them only near the tent and inside the tent. This would contradict the theories of human/alien attack, haunted missile, and poisonous air.

I think yes to your first answer.

But if the danger was only near the tent why go so far away from your shelter and clothes?

January 17, 2019, 05:14:24 AM
Reply #25
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



The one felt boot tells us that he was either putting his boots on or taking them off of and he didn’t have time to finish.  It tells us he had to leave without his other boot.  It doesn’t tell us anything about why they had to leave the camp.  It may suggest that there was a limited warning allowing him to go for his foot wear.  I suspect this was the case, given that several others such as Lyuda had several warm layers on but not their shoes.  Lyuda had her fur hat and coat. I suspect there was something going on that caused them to go outside to see.

Why climb a tree to escape your attackers. The attackers could easily climb up after you? Or shoot you etc. Unless the threat could not climb up?


1. Yes, he did not have time to finish - which is only a matter of course if he was not allowed to finish but was forced out.

2. Why climb a tree to escape attackers? Because that is a sensible thing to do in utter desperation if you are confronted with determined attackers and have nowhere to go - and you sense that your armed attackers do not intend to shoot at you. The attackers carefully refrained from shooting, because that would have left telltale bullet wounds and then it would have been impossible to make it look like an accident.

Yes, the attackers could climb up, and that is very probably what happened too. There was no escape from these killers.

January 17, 2019, 05:36:32 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Monika


Quote
Question: why was Semyon wearing Lyudmila’s fur hat and coat if they were all bombed and killed at the same time? 

Fascinating question.

I believe that Semyon acted according to the military training he had. He survived WW2. Only 3% of his generation survived this war. He was a survivor. First he took cover. The ravine was a natural trench for him. Then he probably built a nest of the wounded. He avoided to get wet sitting or lying on the ground. So he built a mat with twigs and clothes. Never get wet out in the wild! This is the first rule for survivors. He brought the wounded to that place. Maybe he was carrying Kolevatov at the moment of their death. This looks like a hug to us when we look at the pictures of the bodies in the ravine. But it is actually a method of transporting wounded soldiers, even today. Maybe Lyudmila was close to death. So he decided that the life of the helper is more important than the life of the wounded. This is an important rule for every military paramedic. (I was one. :)). He took her coat and her hat in order to survive. Seems brutal but necessary.

But then they all died in an instant.

And then again... I don't know.

regards

Dominov

It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy  bang1

The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?

It's fascinating.


Hello,
I have a few possible answers to your questions, of course, I'm open to other options as well.

„It's strange that both Lyuda and Semyon had very similar injuries, and yet he had taken her hat and coat?  Or was it Kolevatov who had taken her hat and coat and put them on Semyon as he was still alive?  Maybe Lyuda had given Semyon the hat and coat for some good reason just before they all died together?  It's not easy „
-  If I look at a 3D model of Vasilii Zyadik Vasilii Zyadik (https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik), of course, if it was properly drawn, it is clear that they were lying next to each other, and after the snow had faded, Ljuda body shifted a little bit from them. It looks as Kolevatov (the last alive person) was lying beside the Zolotarev, he knew he was dying, but he did not want to die alone, at least he wanted to get a little warmer.
The reason why Zolotarev had Ljuda hat and coat: Given the similarity of the Zolotarev and Ljuda injuries, it is likely that both were injured at the same time, but before the injury, each of them was otherwise turned towards the "attack" direction. But Ljuda had a damaged heart as a result of broken ribs, and it is clear she had to die before Zolotarev. So they took her clothes to make Zolotarev warmer.

„The clothing is actually quite interesting.  For instance Rustem was only wearing one felt boot.  What does this tell us about the events at the tent before it all kicked off?  Semyon was found with a camera around his neck.“
- Rustem probably just shuffles his shoes before going to sleep when it start...and only one boot was put on. Or when it started, he has the time to take only one boot. This also proves that they all had to flee immediately from the tent. The reason of Zolotarev with camera around his neck - he had to have it before the event started. If Rustem did not have the time to slipper both shoe, Zolotarev did not have the time to put his camera also.

Why did they select the cedar tree which was prominent and tall and climb up to 5 metres when there was try twigs to build a fire around them?
- to see from above what is happening near the tent. Let's not forget that their main goal was to get boots and clothing as soon as possible. If around the tent was still threatening conditions, they could not go back.
It seems to me, as the danger threatened them only near the tent and inside the tent. This would contradict the theories of human/alien attack, haunted missile, and poisonous air.

I think yes to your first answer.

But if the danger was only near the tent why go so far away from your shelter and clothes?

They had to go up to the forest for three reasons:
1. There is only an open wold between the tent and the forest.
2. A strong wind was blowing in the direction of the forest that night. In the woods, it is better to hide from the wind even though it is not enough for the fire to stay for longer.
3. The only way they could survive was to make a fire.
No one would stay on a strong wind in an open wold. And the tent was unavailable for some reason for a long time. Why, I have no idea.


January 17, 2019, 07:34:24 AM
Reply #27
Offline

Dominov


I tried to visualize the «setting» as accurately as possible using Google Earth.

The position of the cedar tree is accurate according to expeditions to that area.
The position of the den is accurate. I'ts only 50 meters away from the cedar tree. So I guess that people in the ravine could communicate with the people near the cedar.

First i tried to find out what they could see from 5 meters above ground. (green area). The cedar was a suited lookout post. They have removed the branches to have a better view.
Then i approximated the area of the tent. The most like area is colored in red. The larger area of likeliness is orange.

You can also see the inclination of the slope. It's an average of 16%: not the hardest mountain to climb. But conditions were very rough.





January 17, 2019, 08:45:06 AM
Reply #28
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I tried to visualize the «setting» as accurately as possible using Google Earth.

The position of the cedar tree is accurate according to expeditions to that area.
The position of the den is accurate. I'ts only 50 meters away from the cedar tree. So I guess that people in the ravine could communicate with the people near the cedar.

First i tried to find out what they could see from 5 meters above ground. (green area). The cedar was a suited lookout post. They have removed the branches to have a better view.
Then i approximated the area of the tent. The most like area is colored in red. The larger area of likeliness is orange.

You can also see the inclination of the slope. It's an average of 16%: not the hardest mountain to climb. But conditions were very rough.





That is a useful analysis.  Clever, I like it. thumb1

So let’s say they were standing on the ground 5 metres lower. What are they able to see from there?  Would the tent area still be visible or not? If it isn’t then that would strengthen the argument that it was used as a lookout?

January 17, 2019, 10:47:04 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Dominov


Well, I guess they could see the tent from the lookout post in the tree, but not from the ground because there were smaller trees in front of them blocking the view. What would they have seen if there was neither a winterstorm nor heavy snow drifts? They were young and had good eyes. They'd probably seen a tiny black dot against the brighter snow background. I'm quite sure that could locate the tent. And they could send light signals to three on the slope or at least tell them the location of the cedar (with torches) . The ravine was probably a place to rest whereas the cedar was a place to lookout and communicate. They might have had shifts - > Zorotaryov with Dubininas coat and hat? Was he on his way to the lookout shift?

They were very organized, not ready to die.

regards

Dominov