August 22, 2019, 02:29:49 AM
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Author Topic: Low Yield Nuclear Test - Tragic Accident version 2  (Read 4593 times)

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January 22, 2019, 11:40:18 PM
Reply #30
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Star man

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Doroschenko injuries. How did he get them?

I doubt he got them walking down the slope? Yes, he may have slipped several times and got some cuts and abrasions on his hands and arms, but doubt he got the scratches, bruises and cuts around his armpits that way?  I doubt he got them putting his deodorant on either.

So how did he get them?  Given that as far as we know there was the slope and the cedar tree it seems more likely that he got them climbing the tree.

Those who were better dressed with more layers didn’t have as many cuts and abrasions.

So if he did get them climbing up and down the tree why was he climbing the tree given that there were others with better clothing to climb?


January 22, 2019, 11:49:20 PM
Reply #31
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Star man

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Another question.  9 ski hikers with a good fire die. Why?

Some of them had reasonable insulation. Others less. But these guys were a team. They were fit, resourceful and intelligent.

They could have maintained the body temperature of those less prepared by using the fire. If the wind was strong and the fire was not as effective they could have all huddled close together with the least well dressed in the middle and rotated those on the outside to survive the cold. IMO there was no reason why they could not have survived the cold given that strategy plus a hot fire.

January 23, 2019, 12:44:10 PM
Reply #32
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sarapuk

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Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken.


Its true that its how you fall and from what height and onto what kind of surface or object. We really need more information on those Rib injuries. But also more information regarding the missing Tongue and Hyoid Bone. And lets not forget the missing Eyes and other bits of the Face.










DB

January 23, 2019, 02:23:19 PM
Reply #33
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Star man

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Welp,. if they fell into the ravine, they fell onto boulders.   

When I snapped my arm falling out of a tree as a kid, I didn't have any other injuries.  I don't think anyone can suggest any particular fall should result in any particular injuries.  Its all about how you land, what you hit, and how much force was applied/absorbed. 

Its like the camera not being broken in a fall.  Things on a lanyard swing, things that swing could have not been in the direct line of said impact. 

To assume there was no fall because the camera survived is like saying there was no fall because my ribs were not broken.


Its true that its how you fall and from what height and onto what kind of surface or object. We really need more information on those Rib injuries. But also more information regarding the missing Tongue and Hyoid Bone. And lets not forget the missing Eyes and other bits of the Face.

What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.  More information on the injuries would be very useful.

Also the histological report available only seems to cover those in the ravine and there isn't anything on the chemical analysis from what I can see.

January 23, 2019, 04:07:35 PM
Reply #34
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Dominov


I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 04:21:31 PM by Dominov »

January 23, 2019, 04:24:19 PM
Reply #35
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Loose}{Cannon

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Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 23, 2019, 04:27:10 PM
Reply #36
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Loose}{Cannon

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Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks.

 lol2

I think that would be total for the trip right?   Heck, I would want more.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 23, 2019, 04:30:23 PM
Reply #37
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Loose}{Cannon

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On the legs are brown wool (illegible) with fur insoles; under them are blue and brown woolen socks.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-127-134?rbid=17743

Note.....  their valenki were fur lined valenki.   Thats some warm footwear right there!
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 23, 2019, 10:46:27 PM
Reply #38
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Star man

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I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov

Yes I agree.  When I first stared looking at the DPI it seemed obvious that they must have died due to the severe cold and lack of clothing, but the devil is in the detail.  Counting clothes is a good idea.  I was doing this yesterday.  In particular checking number of felt boots left in the tent.  7 which lines up with Rustem wearing only 1 felt boot leaving an odd number in the tent.

January 23, 2019, 10:50:58 PM
Reply #39
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Star man

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Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.

Good point LC.  To be honest I find it hard to understand how the investigation missed so much obvious inconsistencies with cause of death.  I know that originally the search and rescue thought they were still alive so spoiled the scenes and evidence like the tent, but it just seems the investigation was poor beyond belief.  I am no Sherlock homes, but if I can find inconsistencies then surely Ivanov and co should have been interested in them.

January 24, 2019, 09:53:48 AM
Reply #40
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Dominov


What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?

I start believing so.

Dominov

January 24, 2019, 12:29:39 PM
Reply #41
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sarapuk

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Quote
What I find puzzling is how basic the autopsy and histological reports are.

What I find interesting is that the medical examiner never signed the autopsy report on the ravine 4 which should theoretically render them unofficial.  Why would the examiner not sign off on their own examination report?   They did on the other 5.

Yes there is no excuse for the Medical Examiner not to do their job correctly even if the investigation in the field was poor.  In fact it amounts to a poor investigation all round. WHY  !  ? 
DB

January 24, 2019, 02:31:20 PM
Reply #42
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Star man

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What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?

I start believing so.

Dominov

Its possible.  I have considered the same thing.  They may have not anticipated a collapsing toxic mushroom cloud coming their way.

Saying that I would have expected them all to have been more prepared for the test.  Fully dressed with all cameras set up etc?  Or is itmpossible that some of them were there to observe while others were not aware?  It's an interesting idea.

January 25, 2019, 04:53:53 AM
Reply #43
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Star man

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I guess, it never was the intention to solve this case. They wanted it closed as fast as possible. And some facts were never to be revealed to the public. We won't get them and I am convinced that there are no extended files. Nonetheless there are a lot of clues.

Right now I'm counting socks. There were millions of socks, scattered around the cedar, hidden in pockets. And I'm counting pieces of clothing. I'm baffled how many clothes they actually had out there. They didn't even use them. Gloves in pockets (WTF)... Cut trousers and sweaters in the snow, jackets and trousers used as cushions. The notion that they were almost naked and barefooted is a mistake or an intentional exaggeration. Kolmogorova wore 4!!! pairs of socks. I've never tried to put on that many socks in my entire lifetime. I'm not sure if that's even possible ;)

Maybe it's all about socks ;)

regards

Dominov

Did you find anything interesting about the socks?

January 25, 2019, 08:34:30 AM
Reply #44
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Dominov


Socks, yes.... there are many.

First I miscounted. Kolmogorova only wore 3 pairs of socks. Still a lot. No shoes.

Dyatlov one cotton, one wollen. No shoes.

Slobodin: one cotton sock in pocket? AND 4 pairs of socks! No shoes

Doroschenko: different set of wool socks on both feet. One burnt. No shoes

Dubinina: two pairs of warm sock. A third sock was not paired. No shoes

Kolevatov: His right foot was also protected by a light sock underneath a woolen one (2)
His left foot had similar three socks (3) - no shoes

Zolotaryov: pair of socks under boots (burka)

Thibeaux: hand-knitted woolen socks under boots (Valenki)

Krivonischenko: torn sock on his left foot (1)

Under Cedar: Several wool and cotton socks were scattered around the fire?

And the winner is... Slobodin.

But it's a freaking mess ;)

regards

Dominov

January 25, 2019, 08:46:49 AM
Reply #45
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Dominov


I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov

January 25, 2019, 08:53:02 AM
Reply #46
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Star man

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I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov

Weren’t the shoes/ boots piled up near the entrance of the tent?  If they were not all there then that would be an interesting turn of events.

Also it’s strange that there was so much going on with the socks  bang1

January 25, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
Reply #47
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sarapuk

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What if the Dyatov group was the team to observe and document the test of a new kind of low yield neutron bomb during an expedition that was cloaked as mountain hike.

They brought along an unusual amount of cameras which were expensive and not available for the general public at that time. The team consisted of radio und nuclear experts. Spoon? What about the freaking spoon?

Was Zolotaryov's film exposed to radiation rather than light?

Was this a paramilitary science mission?


Isnt it a bit fancyfull that they were there just to observe an Atomic Test  !  ?  It also sounds a bit ridiculous.

I start believing so.

Dominov

Its possible.  I have considered the same thing.  They may have not anticipated a collapsing toxic mushroom cloud coming their way.

Saying that I would have expected them all to have been more prepared for the test.  Fully dressed with all cameras set up etc?  Or is itmpossible that some of them were there to observe while others were not aware?  It's an interesting idea.
DB

January 25, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
Reply #48
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sarapuk

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I seems as if those without shoes had plenty of time putting on or taking along socks instead of boots. Those with shoes only wore one pair of socks.

So where were their shoes? Apparently not in the tent.

The mystery continues :)

Dominov

Well I suspect that they all wore their Socks  Day and Night. But they would take their Boots off at Night to sleep I guess. So so many Socks isnt really a surprise, given the extreme weather conditions.

Weren’t the shoes/ boots piled up near the entrance of the tent?  If they were not all there then that would be an interesting turn of events.

Also it’s strange that there was so much going on with the socks  bang1
DB

January 25, 2019, 03:23:55 PM
Reply #49
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Dominov


@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.




January 25, 2019, 03:51:46 PM
Reply #50
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Star man

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When I get some time I am going to analyse the rib fractures in more detail.  If the available diagrams of where the breaks were are accurate then the geometry of the fractures may hold some clues to how they happened.

January 25, 2019, 05:55:21 PM
Reply #51
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Loose}{Cannon

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@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.




Its not intentional.   He just needs to insert his text below the quoted content rather then within it.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 26, 2019, 04:13:20 AM
Reply #52
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Dominov


@Loose Canon
I see.
@sarapuk
No problem. I understand.
@Star Man

The sock business is puzzling. Why didn't the search team try to count the socks around the cedar? All we know is there were several scattered around the tree. We're they wet? They could have tried to dry them around the fire. Socks seemed to be vital for these weather conditions. But they just left them behind? Dyatlov only wore two different socks. He's actually the loser in the sock game. Didn't he even make it to the cedar?
Kolmogorova must have been at the cedar. She lost a cuff there. And why the heck did Slobodin have a sock in his pocket when he actually wore 4 pairs of them.

So why did they have some many socks but no shoes or boots?

What also puzzles me is that Thibeaux had two wollen gloves in his pockets? Weren't they supposed to freeze?

Could a nuke create a bubble of hot air which last for several hours? In the Ural, in wintertime? I don't think so. What is your opinion?

regards Dominov

January 26, 2019, 11:44:08 AM
Reply #53
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sarapuk

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@sarapuk

Do not fake or alter my postings. See picture below.

I've never said that.




Its not intentional.   He just needs to insert his text below the quoted content rather then within it.   



Apologies.
DB

January 26, 2019, 11:50:58 AM
Reply #54
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sarapuk

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Regarding Socks and Shoes.  They are most likely to have been wearing Socks both Day and Night whereas with Shoes they would most likely take them off to sleep. And if any one as have ever been Camping or Hiking in the Hills or Mountains then they will know that extra pairs of Socks are a must have item.
DB

January 26, 2019, 04:08:06 PM
Reply #55
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Star man

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@Loose Canon
I see.
@sarapuk
No problem. I understand.
@Star Man

The sock business is puzzling. Why didn't the search team try to count the socks around the cedar? All we know is there were several scattered around the tree. We're they wet? They could have tried to dry them around the fire. Socks seemed to be vital for these weather conditions. But they just left them behind? Dyatlov only wore two different socks. He's actually the loser in the sock game. Didn't he even make it to the cedar?
Kolmogorova must have been at the cedar. She lost a cuff there. And why the heck did Slobodin have a sock in his pocket when he actually wore 4 pairs of them.

So why did they have some many socks but no shoes or boots?

What also puzzles me is that Thibeaux had two wollen gloves in his pockets? Weren't they supposed to freeze?

Could a nuke create a bubble of hot air which last for several hours? In the Ural, in wintertime? I don't think so. What is your opinion?

regards Dominov

You make some really good points.  Let's look at them:

1. Socks discarded.  These could have been used on feet and even hands to prevent frost bite.
2. Gloves in pocket.  Not the sort of thing you would expect from people freezing to death.
3. Jackets unzipped. 
4. Good fire by the cedar tree

Hmmm doesn't sound like a group of people who thought the cold was a significant threat to their lives?

Dyatlov - why would he set off back to the tent with only two pairs of socks when he could have three or four.

You maybe right.  Maybe he didn't make to the cedar.  Only thing is, there is a statement in the case files that says henisnwearing Yuris Yudins sweater.  It's one that Yuris Yudin gave to Krivonischenko ( may have been Dorishenko's, will have to read again).  So did he take it from him under the cedar?  If he didn't make it to the cedar then there was obviously something other than hypothermia that killed him?

When you pull it all together it doesn't paint a picture that these guys only threat to their lives was the cold.  It looks like there was something else affecting their health and decision making.

I doubt a nuclear blast could result in warm conditions for very long on the mountain.  The truth is I think they had the cold under control, expect for maybe if they all had to climb the cedar tree to avoid a low lying blanket of nitrogen dioxide from a collapsed mushroom cloud?

January 26, 2019, 04:12:36 PM
Reply #56
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Star man

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It's amazing what insights you can get from socks. kewl1

January 26, 2019, 04:56:56 PM
Reply #57
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Star man

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Just some further thoughts on the damage to Lyuda and Semyon rib cage:

Both Lyuda and Semyon have a double fracture line on the right side at what appears to be the points of highest stress (high radius of curvature at these fracture points).  I still need to do more research on this but it seems to me that we can conclude some things from this:

1. The force was large
2. The force was fast resulting in fast deformation of the bone.
3. The force was spread out across the area where the ribs are broken
4. The force was a result of a single application

The force had to be large to cause the multiple fractures.  Bone tensile strength is about 50MPa.
The force was likely to be fast because we have two fracture lines along some of the ribs.  The bones were deformed past their breaking points so fast that it allowed the forces to increase beyond the yield stress points at two points on the bone.  If the stresses were applied slowly, then one point is likely to be weaker and fail first, relieving the stress on the other weak point.
The force must have been spread out because if it wasn't we would not get the multiple fracture lines and there would be a large concetration of force to the soft tissues which would have left tissue damage or a sever large bruise centred on one point.
The force must have been the result of a single application to result in the clean straight fracture lines through the rib cage..

Still need todo some more thinking to understand the amount of force, but it looks to me like these injuries to the chest were caused by either falling and hitting the ground, or from a pressure wave.

January 27, 2019, 03:44:58 PM
Reply #58
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Star man

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Just some further thoughts on the damage to Lyuda and Semyon rib cage:

Both Lyuda and Semyon have a double fracture line on the right side at what appears to be the points of highest stress (high radius of curvature at these fracture points).  I still need to do more research on this but it seems to me that we can conclude some things from this:

1. The force was large
2. The force was fast resulting in fast deformation of the bone.
3. The force was spread out across the area where the ribs are broken
4. The force was a result of a single application

The force had to be large to cause the multiple fractures.  Bone tensile strength is about 50MPa.
The force was likely to be fast because we have two fracture lines along some of the ribs.  The bones were deformed past their breaking points so fast that it allowed the forces to increase beyond the yield stress points at two points on the bone.  If the stresses were applied slowly, then one point is likely to be weaker and fail first, relieving the stress on the other weak point.
The force must have been spread out because if it wasn't we would not get the multiple fracture lines and there would be a large concetration of force to the soft tissues which would have left tissue damage or a sever large bruise centred on one point.
The force must have been the result of a single application to result in the clean straight fracture lines through the rib cage..

Still need todo some more thinking to understand the amount of force, but it looks to me like these injuries to the chest were caused by either falling and hitting the ground, or from a pressure wave.

Just to add some more data:

Amount of force required to break a single rib set for human:

Tensile strength of bone under lateral force is about 50 MPa

Upper range of cross section area of human rib is about 5.5E-5 square metres

Force required to break rib set = 50E6 x 5.5E-5 = 2750 Newtons

Force required to break 10 sets of ribs (as in Lyuda's) case is about 27500 Newtons.  This about 2.7 tonnes of force.

Note that this data is a rough guide only as it takes the upper range of a human rib cross sectional area so is probably an over estimate.

I would say a range of about 2 to 2.7 tonnes would be the kind of force that caused Luda'a chest injury.

This type of force could be a result of:

1. A fall from height of about 5 metres or higher
2. a pressure wave
3. A large impact from something hard and flat and moving fast.

Both 2 and 3 should result in the person being knocked away.  In this case there should be some secondary injuries.

January 27, 2019, 04:29:12 PM
Reply #59
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Dominov


Thanks for the physics.

Another meta-info from me:

Kolmogorova, 28.Jan 1959

Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit.



What, Woot, Which device? Who found that device. What is it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 04:42:01 PM by Dominov »