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Author Topic: My short take on murder.  (Read 2063 times)

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January 23, 2019, 06:00:03 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.  Most of you may know I have issues with all theories, but I also see the possibilities in each as well.  I am most definitely not married to any one theory. That being said, I believe the most compelling aspects of any murder theory at its foundation are the injuries.  I wont go through them all but lets take three individuals that were NOT subject to months of rotting in a creek......  Igor, Rustem, and Zina.  These three individuals were literally frozen in place and intact. 


Igor

1. minor abrasions on the forehead
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks
6. dried blood on lips

12. purple-gray discoloration on back side of the right hand
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand





Now, when I look at all this its only logical to assume Igor was fighting someone or 'something'.  Even if you were to explain some of them away as injuries having acquired somehow other then fighting, Im not convinced you can eliminate all of them i.e if even ONE of them was caused by foul play......  you have a problem. 

Please take note of this injury in particular.
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.

Being a former Marine and a little rambunctious in a past life I can attest many of the above injuries are consistent with...... fighting. 



Rustem

1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose
6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
8.brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
9. swollen lips
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)




Literally the entire list of injuries of Rustem 'could' be attributed to..... fighting.

Please take note of this injury in particular.
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fighting






Zina

1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton





Again, the entire list other then #9 (frostbite) 'could' be attributed to... hand/hand combat.     bat1

Note #10 in the image is misleading. The waist injury is isolated to the right side and can not be a result of "pulling a roped sled" around the waist which would be evenly distributed to both sides and the front.
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton

Also note the severity of this injury in particular and the descriptions accuracy which 'should' be an indication of the rest of the injuries description accuracy. 
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger




Conclusion.

I dont know about you guys, but thats a whole lot of busted up heads, and knuckles with side order of blood to go around.  Again, can some of thes injuris have been caused by climbing trees, falling on rocks etc... sure, but 'what if' even ONE of them wasn't?   The who, what, when, where, and why I leave to you.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:21:20 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 24, 2019, 12:23:23 AM
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Marchesk


I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.

Lack of motive AND lack of evidence for anyone else on the mountain that night. Also, the fact that money, food, alcohol, skis and clothing were left behind in the tent. Those would be valuable to a lot of would-be attackers out there in the middle of the winter.

But yes, why bother in the middle of nowhere during those winter conditions when the hikers won't be sticking around? Did they insult some locals in route and and not write about in their diaries? Wouldn't 9 healthy people be a rather big group to go after?

All that being said, those injuries and some other things does make one wonder if someone else could have been involved.

January 24, 2019, 02:59:22 AM
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Marchesk


Or, those injuries are from a fight within in the group as things got desperate around the fire and some disagreement broke out. Or relating back to the decision to abandon the tent. It is interesting that Igor, Rustem and Zina were found more than 150 meters apart from each if they were going back to the tent. It's as if they went separately. 

January 24, 2019, 04:53:23 AM
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Star man

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I agree that the injuries to hands and face do look like they could have been sustained from a fight.  If they were then the question is who was involved?  External people or was it in fighting.

When you consider however that there were 7 young physically fit men and 2 physically fit women they should have been able between them to take on a fair number of external foes.  Given the lack of evidence of the presence of anyone else it would seem to me that they probably fought amongst themselves driven the desperate situation and life or death decisions they were having to make.

They may have also targeted Dyatlov who was their leader for leading them into this situation by deviating from the planned route.

It kind of reminds me of the movie Appollo 13, where they start blaming and arguing over who’s fault it was and then realised it wasn’t helping the situation, only in the Dyatlov case there may have been a few more fists thrown.

January 24, 2019, 06:02:26 AM
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Monika


Or, those injuries are from a fight within in the group as things got desperate around the fire and some disagreement broke out. Or relating back to the decision to abandon the tent. It is interesting that Igor, Rustem and Zina were found more than 150 meters apart from each if they were going back to the tent. It's as if they went separately.

All three of them go along side by side and gradually dying, Igor first and the other two let him lying down and went further, then Rustin, and Zina went farthest.

January 24, 2019, 07:15:20 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Maybe, but if in-fighting is a possibility then you seemingly have to be open to the idea someone was struck inside the tent. One has to wonder why only 8 sets of tracks were found, but they assumed 9 were there?   Perhaps someone was carried away from the tent/situation.  One thing about the tracks nobody seems acknowledge is that there are no time stamps on these tracks.  Did 2 individuals carry someone away and the rest followed later?  Who knows!
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 24, 2019, 07:44:35 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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In addition,  I think there is entirely too much faith put into the idea that Igor, Zina, and Rustem died while attempting to return to the tent. The only reason why people assume this to be the case is because their orientations having their heads all facing the general direction of the tent?  Welp, common sense tells me that I have never seen anyone lay down on an incline/slope with their heads facing downward.  Its completely unnatural.   Think about it, if I told you to walk downhill, stop, and lay down...... would you instinctively go down with your head lower then your feet?  I would assume not.

I mean....  who ordered all these people to sit on this park hill like this?

All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 24, 2019, 08:47:16 AM
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Star man

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It’s possible it all started in the tent yes and you are right that there is no time stamp so they may have left in smaller groups.  But why would they do that?  Also if someone had forced the others to leave it’s unlikely that they themselves would leave the tent poorly dressed and without their boots. I don’t think anyone of them had all of their outdoor gear on?

The bodies on the slope could have been going either up or down. But one thing that is unlikely to be coincidental is that they were all in a straight line. This indicates that they were likely to all have started from the same place and were heading in the same direction. So they were probably travelling together. 

It seems that almost any theory can only be based on the most probable events.  Unless it’s possible to piece together more solid clues and evidence .

January 24, 2019, 09:24:27 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Well....  they were not actually in a straight line. They were staggered or offset.  This is expected in either scenario though as they had to follow the terrain.  This isnt a perfectly smooth slope, especially closer to the valley bottom.
 

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 09:28:54 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 24, 2019, 03:33:39 PM
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Marchesk


In addition,  I think there is entirely too much faith put into the idea that Igor, Zina, and Rustem died while attempting to return to the tent.

Well, the reasoning would be it would make more sense for them to have died trying to return to the tent than coming down, since hypothermia wouldn't have set in yet, with Igor and Zina only having minor injuries. Unless one thinks they made it back to the tent and were on their way down, but then there is no evidence they successfully retrieved anything from the tent.

Or they were chased away from the cedar tree. I guess we don't have any tracks to go off of regarding how they ended up in those positions.

January 24, 2019, 04:37:31 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Rustems body had a layer of ice under suggesting he was quite warm when he died.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

January 24, 2019, 05:53:18 PM
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Vietnamka


Very interesting!
But, please, add
-the link for the KP who ordered this expertises to Professor of Forensic department of Russian state Uni Eduard Tumanov and published result on Nov 2014
https://m.kp.ru/daily/26311.5/3189866/

- Logo KP + name of creator of pictures you have used. All pictures were marked
Thanks a lot for cooperation.



January 24, 2019, 06:33:04 PM
Reply #12
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
No thank you, Ill leave it just the way it is.   Im not worried about it.    wink1

Members please note the site linked above is VERY heavy in spam adds. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:59:27 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

February 05, 2019, 02:34:28 PM
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sarapuk

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I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive.  Most of you may know I have issues with all theories, but I also see the possibilities in each as well.  I am most definitely not married to any one theory. That being said, I believe the most compelling aspects of any murder theory at its foundation are the injuries.  I wont go through them all but lets take three individuals that were NOT subject to months of rotting in a creek......  Igor, Rustem, and Zina.  These three individuals were literally frozen in place and intact. 


Igor

1. minor abrasions on the forehead
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks
6. dried blood on lips

12. purple-gray discoloration on back side of the right hand
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand





Now, when I look at all this its only logical to assume Igor was fighting someone or 'something'.  Even if you were to explain some of them away as injuries having acquired somehow other then fighting, Im not convinced you can eliminate all of them i.e if even ONE of them was caused by foul play......  you have a problem. 

Please take note of this injury in particular.
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.

Being a former Marine and a little rambunctious in a past life I can attest many of the above injuries are consistent with...... fighting. 



Rustem

1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose
6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
8.brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
9. swollen lips
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)




Literally the entire list of injuries of Rustem 'could' be attributed to..... fighting.

Please take note of this injury in particular.
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fighting






Zina

1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton





Again, the entire list other then #9 (frostbite) 'could' be attributed to... hand/hand combat.     bat1

Note #10 in the image is misleading. The waist injury is isolated to the right side and can not be a result of "pulling a roped sled" around the waist which would be evenly distributed to both sides and the front.
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton

Also note the severity of this injury in particular and the descriptions accuracy which 'should' be an indication of the rest of the injuries description accuracy. 
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger




Conclusion.

I dont know about you guys, but thats a whole lot of busted up heads, and knuckles with side order of blood to go around.  Again, can some of thes injuris have been caused by climbing trees, falling on rocks etc... sure, but 'what if' even ONE of them wasn't?   The who, what, when, where, and why I leave to you.

Yes I have thought along those lines as well. A lot of the injuries do look as if they could have been caused by physical contact with someone or something ie some kind of fight or defence maybe. And yet this is apparently being ruled out by the Authorities re the re opening of the Dyatlov Case.
DB

February 05, 2019, 03:10:11 PM
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Star man

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I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making.  It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.

Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands.  They are filthy with dirt and grime.  Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty?  Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ).  Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent?  Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den?  It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.

To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent.  The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.

February 06, 2019, 11:39:54 AM
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sarapuk

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I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making.  It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.

Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands.  They are filthy with dirt and grime.  Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty?  Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ).  Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent?  Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den?  It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.

To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent.  The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.

I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
DB

February 06, 2019, 03:20:26 PM
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Star man

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I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making.  It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.

Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands.  They are filthy with dirt and grime.  Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty?  Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ).  Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent?  Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den?  It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.

To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent.  The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.

I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.

That's an interesting point.  Don't look like frost bite to me and the autopsy report doesn't say anything about frost bite on his hands, whereas Doreshenko autopsy report makes it clear his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  I'm not an expert on Thai though. 

February 06, 2019, 04:41:17 PM
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Vietnamka




I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
1) all the symptoms of frostbite appear after After rewarming only. Did they have have time for rewarm ? How did they rewarm?
2) frostbites clinical presentation include  different phases depending of stage.
"The terminal phalanx of fingers 1-5 on the left hand are solid when palpated" is a 4th phase of necrosis, occures  on  7-10 days after onset.
This changes are more typical for postmortem drying.

February 06, 2019, 07:19:12 PM
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sarapuk

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I think its quite possible that a scuffle or two broke out amongst the group given the separate situation and the life or death decisions they knew they were making.  It would be very stressful and stress leads to short tempers.

Something else about the above photo of Dyatlov's hands.  They are filthy with dirt and grime.  Now, there was snow and the ground was frozen so how come his hands are so dirty?  Were they already that dirty after they pitched the tent and he made no attempt to wash/clean them ( seems unlikely ).  Did he get them dirty trying to set up the stove in the tent?  Did he get them dirty climbing the cedar tree, or cutting the branches to make the fire, or building a den?  It's interesting as it might provide some insight as to wether Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina actually made it to the cedar or not.

To be it seems likely that they did make it to the cedar, and therefore died on the slope trying to return to tent.  The extent of grime on his hands indicates that those hands had done a lot of work before he died.

I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.

That's an interesting point.  Don't look like frost bite to me and the autopsy report doesn't say anything about frost bite on his hands, whereas Doreshenko autopsy report makes it clear his fingers and toes are severely frost bitten.  I'm not an expert on Thai though.

Blackening of the skin is a classic sign of severe frostbite. As we all know the Autopsy reports left a lot to be desired.
DB

February 06, 2019, 07:20:28 PM
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sarapuk

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I think you will find that those dirty looking hands are due to FROSTBITE.
1) all the symptoms of frostbite appear after After rewarming only. Did they have have time for rewarm ? How did they rewarm?
2) frostbites clinical presentation include  different phases depending of stage.
"The terminal phalanx of fingers 1-5 on the left hand are solid when palpated" is a 4th phase of necrosis, occures  on  7-10 days after onset.
This changes are more typical for postmortem drying.

I think you will find that the blackening of the skin due to severe frostbite doesnt require any warming period.
DB

February 06, 2019, 11:33:06 PM
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Star man

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So is there anyone who clear this up on Dyatlov’s hands?

Frost bite or dirt/grime?

February 07, 2019, 06:02:27 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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No frostbite between the fingers?     Interesting
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

February 07, 2019, 08:47:32 AM
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Star man

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There are also clear lines that look like wrist covered by cuff or a watch?

February 07, 2019, 09:23:32 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

February 07, 2019, 12:18:05 PM
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sarapuk

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So is there anyone who clear this up on Dyatlov’s hands?

Frost bite or dirt/grime?

Frostbite affects people differently. And there are variations in the extent of frostbite on the various parts of the body, including hands. The affects can last weeks depending on the circumstances. So its more likely to be frostbite that we see on those hands. It looks more like frostbite to me and not dirt or bruising.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 12:47:36 PM by sarapuk »
DB

February 09, 2019, 02:51:07 AM
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knocker


I think when you group the bodies up according to injuries, you find three types.  and you find the three types all generally in the same three places.  A group that mostly just died of exposure, a group that looked like they were in a fist fight, and another group that was savagely beaten and tortured and then dumped into the river.   It seems that there was some favoritism shown here.  Some were let off easy or maybe got away before it all started.  Some appeared to have escaped, the rest had the ever loving **** kicked out of them.

If I had to guess this was the work of just one or two men who couldn't keep track of everybody in the dark.  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably slipped away and hid in the cedar until they felt it was safe after the commotion died down.   Then they lit a fire.  They obviously had no fear of being spotted by that time.  They felt they were safe but knew they were dying.   The rest were frog marched down to the river.  Rustem Slobodin was the first to get it.  Maybe he got mouthy, maybe he tried to fight.  He got his skull cracked and was left to die.    Down at the river the beatings began, and probably got more savage over time.  At first it was just kicks to the ribs or rifle butts to the heads.  But then it degraded into eyes being gouged out and tongues being cut off.  It was already too late for most of them by that time but Dyatlov and Kolmogorova at some point fought their way out and slipped into the night.  The killer continued to work over the rest of the group while Dyatlov and Kolmogorova hid.  The killer finally finishes and leaves but seems to have no interest in finding the others which should be as easy as following the footprints in the snow.  Maybe he decided to just wait at the tent an hour or two knowing they'll all die of exposure.   All he has to do is just wait them out.   Dyatlov and Kolmogorova return to the river to find their friends dead.    By then, who knows how long they'd been out with next to no clothes on.  They try to make a shelter and stay in it for a period of time, then notice the fire Doroshenko and Krivonischenko made.   They make their way over to them and find them dead probably some number of hours after it all began.   They take some of their clothes and try to make it back to the tent.  They never make it.   

The motive never was robbery.  It was very personal.  Personal enough to want to make somebody gouge somebody's eyes out and break every bone in their body.  The natives maybe.   My money is on Yuri Yuden.           

February 09, 2019, 04:21:34 PM
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sarapuk

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I think when you group the bodies up according to injuries, you find three types.  and you find the three types all generally in the same three places.  A group that mostly just died of exposure, a group that looked like they were in a fist fight, and another group that was savagely beaten and tortured and then dumped into the river.   It seems that there was some favoritism shown here.  Some were let off easy or maybe got away before it all started.  Some appeared to have escaped, the rest had the ever loving **** kicked out of them.

If I had to guess this was the work of just one or two men who couldn't keep track of everybody in the dark.  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably slipped away and hid in the cedar until they felt it was safe after the commotion died down.   Then they lit a fire.  They obviously had no fear of being spotted by that time.  They felt they were safe but knew they were dying.   The rest were frog marched down to the river.  Rustem Slobodin was the first to get it.  Maybe he got mouthy, maybe he tried to fight.  He got his skull cracked and was left to die.    Down at the river the beatings began, and probably got more savage over time.  At first it was just kicks to the ribs or rifle butts to the heads.  But then it degraded into eyes being gouged out and tongues being cut off.  It was already too late for most of them by that time but Dyatlov and Kolmogorova at some point fought their way out and slipped into the night.  The killer continued to work over the rest of the group while Dyatlov and Kolmogorova hid.  The killer finally finishes and leaves but seems to have no interest in finding the others which should be as easy as following the footprints in the snow.  Maybe he decided to just wait at the tent an hour or two knowing they'll all die of exposure.   All he has to do is just wait them out.   Dyatlov and Kolmogorova return to the river to find their friends dead.    By then, who knows how long they'd been out with next to no clothes on.  They try to make a shelter and stay in it for a period of time, then notice the fire Doroshenko and Krivonischenko made.   They make their way over to them and find them dead probably some number of hours after it all began.   They take some of their clothes and try to make it back to the tent.  They never make it.   

The motive never was robbery.  It was very personal.  Personal enough to want to make somebody gouge somebody's eyes out and break every bone in their body.  The natives maybe.   My money is on Yuri Yuden.           

Doesnt it seem strange though that some of the Dyatlov Group climbed a Tree  !  ?  And one of them had a camera and flashlight on their person  !  ?  And cameras were found with film intact  !  ? 
DB

February 13, 2019, 03:44:26 AM
Reply #27
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knocker


You climb trees generally for one of two reasons.  An elevated perch to see a longer distance, or to hide from something, somebody.   You could make a case for both.  Both are suspicious and tend to indicate danger was about, and the climbers were either hiding from it, or trying to determine where it was.    Being afraid enough of that danger that you'd chose to freeze to death instead of facing it tells me the story played out over a fairly long period of time.  Probably an hour at least.  It wasn't a quick event that ended quickly and then all was back to normal again.   

Even if it did happen in just a couple of minutes, the initial survivors didn't seem to think it was over for quite some time.  Long enough to freeze to death.  Being from a cold country myself, I can attest to the fact that on a calm night around 10 below, with low humidity, you could survive all night dressed the way they were, if you were uninjured.  I remember standing outside for an hour one evening at -10 talking with a neighbor with just a sweater on.  We had just come through 2 weeks of -35 to -40.  I thought it was warm out.  I wasn't even the least bit cold.    Right about that time I remember reading a story of a guy being lost in the bush for three weeks wearing running shoes and a fairly light jacket.  He was hunting just for a couple of hours and got lost.  He did it.  It wouldn't be pleasant to spend all night in that, but you could do it.  But that's in good weather.  On a very windy night with high wind chill, and high humidity, you have maybe two or three hours maximum.   Only the first hour or so would you still be active and useful for any physical purpose.   And if you were badly injured it wouldn't half be that long. 

My best guess is that the threat was present in the area for at least an hour.   Or the survivors were still afraid of the threat an hour later.
It seems to me that eventually the guys up the tree were confident enough to come down and start a fire, but by then they were already so cold it was too late.    Probably about an hour to an hour and a half after it all began. 

Coincidentally that night there was a half moon and the diaries say the sky was clear.  With all the snow on the ground it probably would have been fairly bright.  I don't doubt they would have been able to see the tent from that tree.  I wonder sometimes if the perpetrator went back to the tent and searched it.  It's possible the tent was slashed up later on to render it useless to anybody who might have survived.  We assume they cut the holes to get out of it.   Maybe that's not the case at all.                     

February 13, 2019, 04:57:31 AM
Reply #28
Offline

knocker


About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       

February 13, 2019, 12:01:38 PM
Reply #29
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
You climb trees generally for one of two reasons.  An elevated perch to see a longer distance, or to hide from something, somebody.   You could make a case for both.  Both are suspicious and tend to indicate danger was about, and the climbers were either hiding from it, or trying to determine where it was.    Being afraid enough of that danger that you'd chose to freeze to death instead of facing it tells me the story played out over a fairly long period of time.  Probably an hour at least.  It wasn't a quick event that ended quickly and then all was back to normal again.   

Even if it did happen in just a couple of minutes, the initial survivors didn't seem to think it was over for quite some time.  Long enough to freeze to death.  Being from a cold country myself, I can attest to the fact that on a calm night around 10 below, with low humidity, you could survive all night dressed the way they were, if you were uninjured.  I remember standing outside for an hour one evening at -10 talking with a neighbor with just a sweater on.  We had just come through 2 weeks of -35 to -40.  I thought it was warm out.  I wasn't even the least bit cold.    Right about that time I remember reading a story of a guy being lost in the bush for three weeks wearing running shoes and a fairly light jacket.  He was hunting just for a couple of hours and got lost.  He did it.  It wouldn't be pleasant to spend all night in that, but you could do it.  But that's in good weather.  On a very windy night with high wind chill, and high humidity, you have maybe two or three hours maximum.   Only the first hour or so would you still be active and useful for any physical purpose.   And if you were badly injured it wouldn't half be that long. 

My best guess is that the threat was present in the area for at least an hour.   Or the survivors were still afraid of the threat an hour later.
It seems to me that eventually the guys up the tree were confident enough to come down and start a fire, but by then they were already so cold it was too late.    Probably about an hour to an hour and a half after it all began. 

Coincidentally that night there was a half moon and the diaries say the sky was clear.  With all the snow on the ground it probably would have been fairly bright.  I don't doubt they would have been able to see the tent from that tree.  I wonder sometimes if the perpetrator went back to the tent and searched it.  It's possible the tent was slashed up later on to render it useless to anybody who might have survived.  We assume they cut the holes to get out of it.   Maybe that's not the case at all.                     


It wasnt much of a tree though.  Hardly the sort of tree you could stay up for long and also not of such an height that any one climbing a few metres up it could see that far.  They   couldnt hide up that tree and they wouldnt have had a good view from that tree.   
DB