August 26, 2019, 02:01:56 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: My short take on murder.  (Read 2118 times)

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February 13, 2019, 12:04:50 PM
Reply #30
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       


But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera  !  ? 
DB

February 13, 2019, 08:03:22 PM
Reply #31
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knocker


Remember what I said... people do crazy things when they're scared.  And even if the tree was no good for hiding or as a lookout, they wouldn't have known that until the got up there, and it was probably still better than running around on the ground with the, "Yeti."

I remember a few years ago reading a story in the paper about a woman high on drugs getting beat up by some random man on the Belle Isle bridge over the Detroit river going to Belle Isle.  To get away from him, she jumped off the bridge, and drowned in the Detroit river.   She couldn't swim, and about the last place you want to try to learn is the Detroit river.   See what I mean?   

February 13, 2019, 08:05:52 PM
Reply #32
Offline

knocker


About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       


But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera  !  ?


He didn't know Kolevatov had it.  Can't take it if you don't know it exists.   

February 13, 2019, 11:42:57 PM
Reply #33
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It was Semyon who was found with the camera. Just a point of detail.


February 14, 2019, 12:19:58 PM
Reply #34
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Remember what I said... people do crazy things when they're scared.  And even if the tree was no good for hiding or as a lookout, they wouldn't have known that until the got up there, and it was probably still better than running around on the ground with the, "Yeti."

I remember a few years ago reading a story in the paper about a woman high on drugs getting beat up by some random man on the Belle Isle bridge over the Detroit river going to Belle Isle.  To get away from him, she jumped off the bridge, and drowned in the Detroit river.   She couldn't swim, and about the last place you want to try to learn is the Detroit river.   See what I mean?   

Not all people do crazy things when they are scared.  And that was just one woman who apparently did a crazy thing, although we dont know for certain. And apparently she was high on drugs. This proves absolutely nothing as far as the Dyatlov Case is concerned.
DB

February 14, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
Reply #35
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       


But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera  !  ?


He didn't know Kolevatov had it.  Can't take it if you don't know it exists.

What about the other cameras and film  !  ?  And what about the Diaries  !  ? 
DB

February 14, 2019, 03:35:05 PM
Reply #36
Offline

knocker


It was Semyon who was found with the camera. Just a point of detail.

Either way, they way you carry an old film camera in winter time is under your jacket.   At night time, nobody would know it was there unless they searched you.  Might not even notice the lump under the jacket in the day time. 

February 14, 2019, 03:56:19 PM
Reply #37
Offline

knocker


About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       


But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera  !  ?


He didn't know Kolevatov had it.  Can't take it if you don't know it exists.

What about the other cameras and film  !  ?  And what about the Diaries  !  ?

Why did O.J. Simpson leave the bloody gloves behind his own house?    People do stupid things.  And things that are stupid that they think are smart.   If I take the cameras and the diaries they'll know somebody scooped up evidence and be suspicious, probably of me....   I'll just leave it all here.   I could burn the tent, but that's the same thing....   Murders often out think themselves, sometimes they don't think at all, like OJ.  They're just as panicked as the victims.   Imagine you just killed somebody, you feel sick, remorse, fear, fear of getting caught, there's blood everywhere, blood all over you, panic, adrenaline...  Think you could make a good decision at a time like that?  Nobody else can either.   Except maybe a serial killer who doesn't let any of that bother him.     

If it was Yuden or somebody else,  whether by accident or design, he was right to leave it all there.  All it did was confuse us all to this day.   

February 15, 2019, 11:41:25 AM
Reply #38
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It was Semyon who was found with the camera. Just a point of detail.

Either way, they way you carry an old film camera in winter time is under your jacket.   At night time, nobody would know it was there unless they searched you.  Might not even notice the lump under the jacket in the day time.

Well Iam sure many people would have carried and used a camera whilst slung around their necks outside of any winter clothing.
DB

February 15, 2019, 11:58:28 AM
Reply #39
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       


But surely any one attacking with a murderous intent wouldnt leave any evidence like a camera  !  ?


He didn't know Kolevatov had it.  Can't take it if you don't know it exists.

What about the other cameras and film  !  ?  And what about the Diaries  !  ?

Why did O.J. Simpson leave the bloody gloves behind his own house?    People do stupid things.  And things that are stupid that they think are smart.   If I take the cameras and the diaries they'll know somebody scooped up evidence and be suspicious, probably of me....   I'll just leave it all here.   I could burn the tent, but that's the same thing....   Murders often out think themselves, sometimes they don't think at all, like OJ.  They're just as panicked as the victims.   Imagine you just killed somebody, you feel sick, remorse, fear, fear of getting caught, there's blood everywhere, blood all over you, panic, adrenaline...  Think you could make a good decision at a time like that?  Nobody else can either.   Except maybe a serial killer who doesn't let any of that bother him.     

If it was Yuden or somebody else,  whether by accident or design, he was right to leave it all there.  All it did was confuse us all to this day.   

Well first of all it was never proved that OJ left the bloody gloves behind  !  ?  We know people do stupid things. And we know that some murderers make mistakes etc.  But knowing the obvious doesnt help our cause does it  !  ?  The way a Court Of Law would see it is as follows ; LOCATION [ REMOTE ] WEATHER [ VERY SEVERE ] VICTIMS [ 9 YOUNG AND FIT HUMANS ]  DEAD BODIES [ SCATTERED AND SOME HALF NAKED AND SOME WELL DRESSED ] INJURIES [ SOME VERY SERIOUS INJURIES HIGHLY UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY ANOTHER HUMAN OR HUMANS ] EVIDENCE [ CAMERAS AND FILM AND MONEY AND EQUIPMENT FOUND BY SEARCH PARTIES ] FIRE [ STARTED BY SOME OF THE 9 ] CONCLUSION = PROBABLY NOT MURDER BY OTHER HUMANS.
DB

February 18, 2019, 06:52:07 PM
Reply #40
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Vietnamka




I think you will find that the blackening of the skin due to severe frostbite doesnt require any warming period.
If you can find this information - you can provide the link for conformation))

February 19, 2019, 12:40:58 PM
Reply #41
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


I think you will find that the blackening of the skin due to severe frostbite doesnt require any warming period.
If you can find this information - you can provide the link for conformation))

I have come across references to frostbiten skin not always needing warming to turn black. So there may be certain circumstances where that applies. It needs the medical experts on this one. Different people also react differently to severe cold.  Some people get frostbite and others dont despite being in the same place at the same time, refer to all the high altitude mountaineers who can bear witness to this fact. Also it depends on what parts of the body are exposed. The photos we see of the blackened hands on the Dyatlov body may be due to frostbite or something else  !  ?
DB

July 05, 2019, 11:38:52 AM
Reply #42
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Nigel Evans



 

Her hands look like she had been working on a car...

July 06, 2019, 09:22:45 PM
Reply #43
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Well...   It's a colorized version of the black/white original.   It does a good job of illustrating the injury however.  Comparing to the original, it's spot on.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

July 07, 2019, 05:06:57 AM
Reply #44
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Nigel Evans


I'm not sure about the colour version showing the skin removed. In the black & white original it's not clear to me whether the skin is still there or not. Going to the autopsy report for clarification is ambiguous -

"There is an irregularly shaped 3 x 2.2-cm wound on the base of the third finger on the right hand with an angle facing the terminal phalanx with uneven borders and a scalped skin graft."

What's a scalped skin graft? Does it mean that the skin is still there as a flap? If so then it's from a cut from metal but it's irregular unlike a cut from a knife? More like from a jagged, irregular piece of sharp metal traveling at speed?

And she has what appears to be "soot" deposits on her hands.
And she has marks on her face that (to me) fit well with being spattered by something that burns the skin, something like acid perhaps.
And now you have a fit for being in the proximity of a missile explosion....


 

July 08, 2019, 03:37:48 PM
Reply #45
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The signs on the hands could also be due to some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
DB

August 22, 2019, 09:43:52 PM
Reply #46
Online

BottledBrunette


About the camera Kolevatov had.  I remember the days of old mechanical film cameras.  They were worse than cell phones, very delicate.  If you dropped it from waist height, it was junk.  I'd be interested to see how badly damaged it was.  That's why you generally wore the camera on a strap around your neck or with a wrist lanyard, so you couldn't drop it.   And in the winter you typically wore it under your jacket to keep it a little bit warmer.  The mechanism could freeze up solid, you could get condensation on the film.   Advancing the film when very cold and dry caused static discharges that would ruin the film.  If the camera was warm the view finder tended not to fog up so easy if you made the mistake of breathing on it.  You generally tried to keep it as warm as possible. 

Kolevatov was one of the better dressed of the party.  He had a jacket on and that camera likely would have been under it.  Nobody would have seen it.  You only see it in the photo from after his body was pulled out of the river and it kind of falls to the side out of his jacket.    Interesting that it's said that when he was told of the camera found on Kolevatov, that Yuri Yuden expressed surprise that it was there.   Why would that surprise him?  He wasn't there.   He didn't know what anybody had on them.    Or maybe he was there and never saw it.  That's why it came as a surprise to him.       
Why do you think Yuri Yudin came back and killed them and why do you think he was surprised that Kolevatov had a camera?  I mean, maybe Kolevatov didn't have a camera, because he refused to write in the diary and supposedly, didn't like getting his picture taken and was an extremely private guy.  My theory was, maybe, he took the camera off of Krivonoschenko when they found him dead at the same time they took his pants or whatever it was that was taken off his and Doroschenko's bodies, and perhaps, that's why Yuri Yudin was surprised that a camera was found on him.  I guess I forgot a camera was found on him.  All I remember was a camera being found on Zolataryov.  But, I think it was you, I read a comment that thought Yuri Yuden came back and killed him, and I got a laugh about the picture of Yuri Y saying he looked like a complete psycho.  LOL.  But, I'm curious and want to know why you bet money on Yuri Y being the killer and other than for purely psychopathic reasons, what would be the reasons for going back and killing them?  Such an interesting idea, and I'm curious.  Thank you.

August 23, 2019, 03:34:29 AM
Reply #47
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


I believe the main issue with any of the murder theories I have seen to date is the lack of motive. 


Dear Loose Cannon,

First of all I have to thank you for still holding out on this forum and contributing to its activity. I very much appreciate that, and your impressive willingness to discuss.

However, I must comment on your statement above.

When dead bodies are found, what is the correct approach?

Is it to ask: "Is there a possible motive for killing these people?"

No.

When one or more corpses are found, the only sensible and scientifically acceptable approach is to examine the bodies as thorough as possible in order to ascertain the cause of death. This is the first crucial step. When and if the exact cause of death is found, a conclusion can be drawn.

In this case, an unbiased forensic examination with published results was not made back in 1959. It is fairly well established that the first investigators and forensic experts were prevented from stating the cause of death. This is demonstrated by later confirmation that the nine cannot have perished as a cause of freezing, with the possible exception of Igor Dyatlov.

The fact that the first investigators were compelled to withhold the true cause of death and instead attributed the deaths to unfortunate circumstances that could not possibly be the cause, indicates that the authorities knew very well what had happened.

The lack of a known motive should not prevent us from unprejudicedly asking what the injuries point to as cause(s) of death.

If we do so, we see that everything we know points to homicide and absolutely nothing contradicts human attack as the true cause of the Dyatlov pass tragedy.

August 23, 2019, 04:14:19 AM
Reply #48
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Per Inge Oestmoen


It wasnt much of a tree though.  Hardly the sort of tree you could stay up for long and also not of such an height that any one climbing a few metres up it could see that far.  They couldnt hide up that tree and they wouldnt have had a good view from that tree.   


True. But in a desperate attempt to escape their attackers, it makes perfect sense that they tried to climb the tree. That also explains the injuries to their hands, which must have been sustained as a result of using their bare hands to try to get hold of the trunk. It is also likely that the injuries were made worse by the attackers' dragging their victims down.

The question of course arises why the attackers did not simply shoot them and all of the others.

The answer is that our picture of murder is largely derived from Western films where killers mostly use firearms. In the real world, very resourceful killers try to camouflage the act so as to make it look like an accident or a natural death.

If, as likely, armed attackers entered the tent and forced the nine victims out in the cold they did so because they wanted to give the impression that the Dyatlov group died as a result of freezing after a voluntary exit from their tent. The fact that many people still believe in the official version, is testimony to the intelligence of the attackers. The killers - and those who orchestrated the murder of the nine - had however misjudged the weather. The victims did not perish as soon as planned, so the attacking squad had to hunt them down and ensure that they died. That also explains why Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle had the most severe injuries. They were better dressed than the others, and might have survived and even escaped. The attackers therefore had to expedite their mission by using force, and all their injuries are consistent with physical force by human attackers.

The question still remains who these unknown killers were. There are only two possibilities, the way I see it.

One is local people (Mansi) who were evidently present in the area. Svetlana Oss believes in this theory, and in her book "Don't Go There" she does a very admirable job in dispelling the theories of natural causes - she demonstrates well how the nine were likely murdered. However, she fails to substantiate the claim that the Mansi were responsible. She only has hearsay evidence to offer and the book does not prove that the locals were responsible - it is a possibility but no more.

The other possibility is a more sinister one.

Personally I feel that the most important thing is to establish the fact that the nine were murdered. Those who were responsible are no longer among us, and whatever the motive - superstitions, offended feelings or perceived security reasons if the students witnessed something they were not supposed to know - the murders were the unfortunate result of suspicions and a profound lack of human understanding. The decision to kill the nine was a terrible mistake, since these young people were unlikely to harm anyone or to divulge any state secrets, but in a world where people are sometimes killed as a preventive measure such things happen - and these acts are often camouflaged as "accidents" or "natural deaths." To force the victims out from the tent after having ensured that they are improperly dressed, and then let the cold weather do the "job," makes perfect sense when the intent is to make the whole thing seem like an unfortunate accident.

An analytic approach to the Dyatlov pass tragedy will strongly suggest that this is precisely what happened on February 2, 1959.

August 23, 2019, 08:33:30 AM
Reply #49
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:

Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive?  His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.

Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out?  I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove suspicion of murder.

Regards

Star man

August 23, 2019, 11:31:11 AM
Reply #50
Online

jarrfan


If the attackers/government were suspicious of Semyon making a break over the border and planned to use the group as a decoy, perhaps they left him to die because they knew he had sorrow and was trying to find his son, Sasha? They knew he was going to die, and were exhausted interrogating all of the other members. The attackers may have personally known Semyon and that is why he was not beaten as severely but nevertheless left to die. If Semyon worked as a tour guide he knew much more about trails to the border than any other citizen.

Are we certain that these hikers tried to climb the tree? Or is it possible some were strung up on the tree breaking the branches, not as a noose, but perhaps their hands tied around pulled up to branches so the attackers could question them? Is it possible the fire was made by the attackers and the burning of the hands and feet occurred during interrogation? That might account for the one person who bit his finger joint cartilage off and it was found in his mouth. The groups were separated by ravine and cedar trees to see if any of the hikers would fess up to planning to leave the country? that is usually the tactic most police use is to split the group up to see if someone would cave that normally would not with much support, but alone or less hikers, they might talk. Splitting the group up also is used to get the whole story straight, if they are all telling the same story as the other group.

There was no knife found by the cedar tree, so maybe the attackers used the knife and kept it, making the one mistake of covering up the murder? Trying to gather the cedar branches for fire wood does not make sense as high as they were 5 m high or 15 feet? As the search party said, there were other branches around dry that would be better for fire. Also, the bodies were found like 9 feet from the fire? Why so far away? It makes no sense if they had the fire for over an hour that they were not able to keep it going?

Is it also possible the big cedar branch was cut off to use as a weapon on the hikers?

« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 09:19:58 AM by jarrfan »

August 24, 2019, 11:40:31 AM
Reply #51
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It wasnt much of a tree though.  Hardly the sort of tree you could stay up for long and also not of such an height that any one climbing a few metres up it could see that far.  They couldnt hide up that tree and they wouldnt have had a good view from that tree.   


True. But in a desperate attempt to escape their attackers, it makes perfect sense that they tried to climb the tree. That also explains the injuries to their hands, which must have been sustained as a result of using their bare hands to try to get hold of the trunk. It is also likely that the injuries were made worse by the attackers' dragging their victims down.

The question of course arises why the attackers did not simply shoot them and all of the others.

The answer is that our picture of murder is largely derived from Western films where killers mostly use firearms. In the real world, very resourceful killers try to camouflage the act so as to make it look like an accident or a natural death.

If, as likely, armed attackers entered the tent and forced the nine victims out in the cold they did so because they wanted to give the impression that the Dyatlov group died as a result of freezing after a voluntary exit from their tent. The fact that many people still believe in the official version, is testimony to the intelligence of the attackers. The killers - and those who orchestrated the murder of the nine - had however misjudged the weather. The victims did not perish as soon as planned, so the attacking squad had to hunt them down and ensure that they died. That also explains why Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle had the most severe injuries. They were better dressed than the others, and might have survived and even escaped. The attackers therefore had to expedite their mission by using force, and all their injuries are consistent with physical force by human attackers.

The question still remains who these unknown killers were. There are only two possibilities, the way I see it.

One is local people (Mansi) who were evidently present in the area. Svetlana Oss believes in this theory, and in her book "Don't Go There" she does a very admirable job in dispelling the theories of natural causes - she demonstrates well how the nine were likely murdered. However, she fails to substantiate the claim that the Mansi were responsible. She only has hearsay evidence to offer and the book does not prove that the locals were responsible - it is a possibility but no more.

The other possibility is a more sinister one.

Personally I feel that the most important thing is to establish the fact that the nine were murdered. Those who were responsible are no longer among us, and whatever the motive - superstitions, offended feelings or perceived security reasons if the students witnessed something they were not supposed to know - the murders were the unfortunate result of suspicions and a profound lack of human understanding. The decision to kill the nine was a terrible mistake, since these young people were unlikely to harm anyone or to divulge any state secrets, but in a world where people are sometimes killed as a preventive measure such things happen - and these acts are often camouflaged as "accidents" or "natural deaths." To force the victims out from the tent after having ensured that they are improperly dressed, and then let the cold weather do the "job," makes perfect sense when the intent is to make the whole thing seem like an unfortunate accident.

An analytic approach to the Dyatlov pass tragedy will strongly suggest that this is precisely what happened on February 2, 1959.

Yes they may well have climbed the Tree to escape from something. Something that was scaring the living daylights out of them. Not a group of murderers or murderer.
DB

August 24, 2019, 11:44:31 AM
Reply #52
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:

Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive?  His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.

Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out?  I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove suspicion of murder.

Regards

Star man

The answer to those questions could be simple.  They were not attacked by other Humans.
DB

August 24, 2019, 12:06:55 PM
Reply #53
Offline

NkZ


... or that kolevatov was the murderer. He managed to split the group to make it easier. Only his rescue party (cia, kgb, yeti, alien or whatever) missed the spot and didn’t find him (low confidence)

August 24, 2019, 05:10:58 PM
Reply #54
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If the attackers/government were suspicious of Semyon making a break over the border and planned to use the group as a decoy, perhaps they left him to die because they knew he had sorrow and was trying to find his son, Sasha? They knew he was going to die, and were exhausted interrogating all of the other members. The attackers may have personally known Semyon and that is why he was not beaten as severely but nevertheless left to die. If Semyon worked as a tour guide he knew much more about trails to the border than any other citizen.

Are we certain that these hikers tried to climb the tree? Or is it possible some were strung up on the tree breaking the branches, not as a noose, but perhaps their hands tied around pulled up to branches so the attackers could question them? Is it possible the fire was made by the attackers and the burning of the hands and feet occurred during interrogation? That might account for the one person who bit his finger joint cartilage off and it was found in his mouth. The groups were separated by ravine and cedar trees to see if any of the hikers would fess up to planning to leave the country? that is usually the tactic most police use is to split the group up to see if someone would cave that normally would not with much support, but alone or less hikers, they might talk. Splitting the group up also is used to get the whole story straight, if they are all telling the same story as the other group.

There was no knife found by the cedar tree, so maybe the attackers used the knife and kept it, making the one mistake of covering up the murder? Trying to gather the cedar branches for fire wood does not make sense as high as they were 5 m high or 15 feet? As the search party said, there were other branches around dry that would be better for fire. Also, the bodies were found like 9 feet from the fire? Why so far away? It makes no sense if they had the fire for over an hour that they were not able to keep it going?

Is it also possible the big cedar branch was cut off to use as a weapon on the hikers?

Some good logical thinking in there.  I don't personally buy that they were murdered though.  Why would the murdered lay the bodies out on branches.  And why would they allow the rav 4 to cut off and use Yuris D  Yuris K clothing?

Regards

Star man

August 24, 2019, 05:13:48 PM
Reply #55
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
... or that kolevatov was the murderer. He managed to split the group to make it easier. Only his rescue party (cia, kgb, yeti, alien or whatever) missed the spot and didn’t find him (low confidence)

The same thought crossed my mind.  But do you think Kolevatov could take out the other 8 hikers by himself?  Why was he found embarrassing Semyon? Also, why would he kill the others knowing that he was also sentencing himself to a cold demise?

Regards

Star man

August 24, 2019, 05:15:56 PM
Reply #56
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
One thing about the murder theory that I think needs to be explained is this:

Why did the attackers leave Kolevatov alive?  His injuries don’t seem to be any where near as significant as the other rav 4.

Also, why use such primitive methods to take them out?  I don’t think anyone could say that they used primitive methods to remove

The answer to those questions could be simple.  They were not attacked by other Humans.

What is that saying again about the simplest answer?  No need to respond.

Regards

Star man

August 24, 2019, 10:37:03 PM
Reply #57
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jarrfan


Dear Starman: My take is that Semyon joined the group with a plan in place to cross the border into Finland from Ortolem. He would have to have had assistance from people who would help him go the 1,772 miles to the Finnish border. It is possible some of the other male hikers knew or were told of his plan and were mulling around whether they should go too. I don't think either of the girls knew. This may have been what the guys were quarreling about.
 
Regardless, someone in the government found out and they are the ones who attacked. Perhaps split the group up with some at the cedar and the others at the ravine. As far as the ravine goes and the hikers found there, after reviewing their fatal blows, I do not believe they could have walked to the ravine in the condition they were in, the final beating had to take place there for these 4.

They may have been told by the guards to go and dig a den because you may have to stay in it until we can figure out who is helping the escape. Then when they finished with the others, they saw they had built the den and decided to make it their grave.

All of this is based on the fact that Semyon wanted to be called Sasha and disguise his birthday, plus him being a tour guide, he would have known the easiest route to Finland border.
 
The ravine 4 I think had to be killed in that den, they could not have done that work in the condition they were in.



August 25, 2019, 04:35:36 AM
Reply #58
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Loose}{Cannon

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Probably should start a new topic thread for your theory. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 25, 2019, 04:48:43 PM
Reply #59
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Dear Starman: My take is that Semyon joined the group with a plan in place to cross the border into Finland from Ortolem. He would have to have had assistance from people who would help him go the 1,772 miles to the Finnish border. It is possible some of the other male hikers knew or were told of his plan and were mulling around whether they should go too. I don't think either of the girls knew. This may have been what the guys were quarreling about.
 
Regardless, someone in the government found out and they are the ones who attacked. Perhaps split the group up with some at the cedar and the others at the ravine. As far as the ravine goes and the hikers found there, after reviewing their fatal blows, I do not believe they could have walked to the ravine in the condition they were in, the final beating had to take place there for these 4.

They may have been told by the guards to go and dig a den because you may have to stay in it until we can figure out who is helping the escape. Then when they finished with the others, they saw they had built the den and decided to make it their grave.

All of this is based on the fact that Semyon wanted to be called Sasha and disguise his birthday, plus him being a tour guide, he would have known the easiest route to Finland border.
 
The ravine 4 I think had to be killed in that den, they could not have done that work in the condition they were in.

Agree that rav 4 were killed very close to the den area.  The question is can you write a logical narrative that fits the evidence presented in the case files.  Would be interesting if you could do this.

Regards

Star man