November 21, 2019, 05:47:34 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Specific details  (Read 5814 times)

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February 15, 2019, 04:18:00 PM
Reply #30
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Star man

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Anyone have any thoughts on how Luda was found? Her body position against the rocks in the stream, arms tretched above her head.  Did she die there, or did her body slip down when the snow thawed?

February 16, 2019, 04:32:49 AM
Reply #31
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Nigel Evans


Anyone have any thoughts on how Luda was found? Her body position against the rocks in the stream, arms tretched above her head.  Did she die there, or did her body slip down when the snow thawed?
Continuing with the NO2 theory. One of the rescuers noted that there was less snow downhill than expected, from memory "as if it had melted". This with the persistent footsteps, general lack of frostbite even though lightly dressed and sastrugi supports the theory that the air (and snow) was warm, being blown downwind from a hot source that was also producing nitrogen oxides of course. So there is a case for the following. That the snow below the tent was to some extent sheltered from this warm air but further across the hill there was more melting and hence more melt water which of course ends up in the ravine. The ravine was then full of packed snow as it was found by the rescue team weeks later. But the melt water had created a "cave" with an unstable roof above. The ravine deaths were caused by the group falling through the roof, probably some landing on top of others and/or the roof falling on top of them afterwards. Some like Rustem and possibly Zinaida could get out but the ravine four were dead or too injured to move. The remaining three went to get supplies from the tent to assist but never returned. The close grouping of the bodies is from the water then and later in May pushing the bodies along until the ice and rocks stopped them. Hence they where found so close together. When they dug down to find the rav4 they noted that the snow was very compact - it taking a team of men all day to dig down 4? metres. This will be due to the melt water warming the snow allowing it to settle and increasing its density which contributing to it's crushing force. So i think Lyudmila slipped over the edge either because the blockage had melted or the diggers disturbed it.

February 16, 2019, 01:52:56 PM
Reply #32
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WAB


Anyone have any thoughts on how Luda was found? Her body position against the rocks in the stream, arms tretched above her head.  Did she die there, or did her body slip down when the snow thawed?

Thoughts are available.
It could be as consequence of that unique who had no trauma in this four of people - Alexander Kolevatov - carry she from place where it has got wound and has temporarily put down she on this place. After that he did den.
The body could not slide off. It was possible so that is simple thaw through snow under she because it has washed away the thawed water and she has fallen to stone.

February 16, 2019, 09:02:05 PM
Reply #33
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sug2h


But the melt water had created a "cave" with an unstable roof above. The ravine deaths were caused by the group falling through the roof, probably some landing on top of others and/or the roof falling on top of them afterwards
Now that's an interesting theory about the ravine!  thumb1  Snow can get pretty heavy when it's compacted, so this roof could be "the large mass" that hit Lyudmila and Semyon, causing those fatal injuries. But would this cave be deep enough, though? 

February 17, 2019, 12:01:04 AM
Reply #34
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Nigel Evans


But the melt water had created a "cave" with an unstable roof above. The ravine deaths were caused by the group falling through the roof, probably some landing on top of others and/or the roof falling on top of them afterwards
Now that's an interesting theory about the ravine!  thumb1  Snow can get pretty heavy when it's compacted, so this roof could be "the large mass" that hit Lyudmila and Semyon, causing those fatal injuries. But would this cave be deep enough, though?
Apparently a cubic metre of powder snow weighs 60kg but when compacted can weigh 200kg or even 300kg. Ice even more or course (nearly 1000kg?). If the ravine is 5 metres deep then one cubic metre falling 4 metres could create those injuries or a larger mass moving less distance. Compacted snow wouldn't create much tissue damage.

Someone else has posed the excellent question - "if the ravine was full of snow at the end of Feb, how was it empty of snow at the beginning of Feb?" this in Siberia of course. This is an excellent question and the answer would seem to be one of :-
  • it wasn't empty (and supports the ice cave theory) however we then have a problem with the den being found on the ravine floor. The den could be explained away as a previously constructed shelter for mansi hunters except that they didn't seem to hunt up there (dead mountain).
  • it was empty and the den was built by them. Now this is the big one. If the wind drift could fill this ravine in three weeks or so how could it possibly be empty at the beginning of Feb? And the only possible answer imo is that it had been previously filled up by the Siberian winter but something had recently emptied it of  snow.... Now if we have theory of warm or hot air blowing across the hill fitting other evidence it would seem that this case would support that theory also.

February 17, 2019, 12:47:18 AM
Reply #35
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Star man

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Some interesting thoughts and ideas. 

So Kelevatov carries his injured friends and puts them there.  It's simple and makes sense.

A snow cave forms and they fall through sustaining the injuries. - possible

Snow falls on the bodies and causes the injuries - also possible

Going back to Luda's position.  Given that rigor Morris would set in not long after death. Is it possible that she could have moved after death into that position?  Seems unlikelymtomme but interested in others thoughts?

February 17, 2019, 11:44:14 AM
Reply #36
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WAB


But the melt water had created a "cave" with an unstable roof above. The ravine deaths were caused by the group falling through the roof, probably some landing on top of others and/or the roof falling on top of them afterwards
Now that's an interesting theory about the ravine!  thumb1  Snow can get pretty heavy when it's compacted, so this roof could be "the large mass" that hit Lyudmila and Semyon, causing those fatal injuries. But would this cave be deep enough, though?
Apparently a cubic metre of powder snow weighs 60kg but when compacted can weigh 200kg or even 300kg.

On our measurements of density of snow in 2015 on this pass the cubic metre of powder snow weighed 358,1 kg of force or 351,227 kg of weight on 1 cubic metre.

Ice even more or course (nearly 1000kg?).

Ice there was not even when there was a snow impregnated with water in May.

If the ravine is 5 metres deep

Depth of coast is equal in that place where have found these 4 body is  2 … 2,5 m. Therefore big heights cannot be. In consequence documents it is written: “They have been dug out from under snow by depth from 2,5 metres to 2 metres.” (c) if deeper sizes it exists only as result different conversation with distortion have been resulted.

then one cubic metre falling 4 metres could create those injuries or a larger mass moving less distance. Compacted snow wouldn't create much tissue damage.

I can add only that snow at thawing is below washed by away water, leaving the big cavities, instead of falls downwards entirely. In a photo such result in the form of the big tunnels is visible:
 


But all top part of snow remained at that height where it was when snow has settled to the biggest density.
Therefore at snow thawing its top part does not fall downwards because the snow adjoining to coast forms an arch.

Snow drops out everywhere gradually. It can be anywhere, though on Ural Mountains, though on Siberia, though on Alaska, though on California, though on Sahara (if there it sometime was).
Therefore in its January there was a little. There is a big difference where there is a concrete place for snow loss in mountains. For example, in a valley of its river Auspia was much (Dyatlov writes that it was 1,2 … 1,5 metres) - and still it is possible to find places where it was and 2 metres as we met places in January 2015 and February 2014. And at a cedar in 1959, it was no more than 30 … 40 cm (it spoke Vladislav Karelin and Michael Sharavin). Then snow gradually collected and to the beginning of its May was already about 1 metre on flat places and much more in ravines.

Someone else has posed the excellent question - "if the ravine was full of snow at the end of Feb, how was it empty of snow at the beginning of Feb?" this in Siberia of course.

In the end of February of snow was more than in the beginning, but it is not enough. A body of Zina have found under snow about 10 cm, and a body of Rustem have found under snow nearby 30 cm and Distance between these places of equally 150 metres see. It turns out that on distance in 400 foots of snow became in 3 times more! It means that it is postponed non-uniformly in different places.
But even if over bodies in a ravine there was no more than 30 cm (12 inches) that them could not see. They were under snow.


This is an excellent question and the answer would seem to be one of :-
  • it wasn't empty (and supports the ice cave theory) however we then have a problem with the den being found on the ravine floor.
I already wrote that in the end of February of snow was little quantity. Even now, when it is more than it there a cave it is impossible to dig snow friable and it is sprinkled.
Den it is found on a thickness of snow 30 it see means that even if it was condensed, its height was no more than 35 … 40 cm (no more than 1,5 foots)

The den could be explained away as a previously constructed shelter for mansi hunters except that they didn't seem to hunt up there (dead mountain).[/li][/list]

Mansi there do not go. Their line of hunting is approximately in 15 km (~ 10 mi) from pass. On a grief and nearby they do not have object for hunting.

   
  • it was empty and the den was built by them. Now this is the big one. If the wind drift could fill this ravine in three weeks or so how could it possibly be empty at the beginning of Feb?
It can be the same as it has closed bodies of Ziny and Rustema snow of a different thickness. The more low on a slope the more snow takes down downwards a wind. In a wood zone snow is not transferred any more by a wind. There all deposits be collect all time.

And the only possible answer imo is that it had been previously filled up by the Siberian winter but something had recently emptied it of  snow.... Now if we have theory of warm or hot air blowing across the hill fitting other evidence it would seem that this case would support that theory also.[/li]
[/list]

No. There blow same a wind, as around. From the West warmer air comes, but it does not mean that it absolutely warm. For example, if the average temperature of February is equal in this place-23...-27С (- 10 …-17 F)/ If from the West air blow contain temperature -15 …-18C (0 …-5 F).it is up 5 … 10 degrees "more warmly" by Celsius and up 10 … 12 degrees by Farenheit. It air blow is “warmly”.  grin1

February 17, 2019, 11:51:52 AM
Reply #37
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WAB


Some interesting thoughts and ideas. 

So Kelevatov carries his injured friends and puts them there.  It's simple and makes sense.

A snow cave forms and they fall through sustaining the injuries. - possible

There, where have found these 4 people it is impossible dig out a cave. Snow in this place very friable and it is showered when it dig. In 1959 was not enough snow. It is told by very knowing person and the participant of searches Vladislav Karelin.
Therefore there it is impossible to receive traumas in a position of principle.
They have been received near to this place, but not on this place.

Snow falls on the bodies and causes the injuries - also possible

Let's spread out all on the different parties …
Snowfalls a field of failure Dyatlov group have closed bodies so that them have not seen and have not found. It is very big territory of searches, also it is impossible to check up all.
Traumas have turned out before they have got on this place.

Going back to Luda's position.  Given that rigor Morris would set in not long after death. Is it possible that she could have moved after death into that position?  Seems unlikelymtomme but interested in others thoughts?

This case is not such as usual happens in the conditions of a city. But here there are other conditions, therefore it can quite be.
If to consider that water washed Lyudmila's body already long, and snow under it has thawed because of the same water cadaveric frosts (severity of Morris) could be allowed to (be gone) when the general has taken place body defrosting. For this body specially thaw (defreeze) in heat before opening.

February 17, 2019, 11:56:29 AM
Reply #38
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sug2h


Mansi there do not go. Their line of hunting is approximately in 15 km (~ 10 mi) from pass. On a grief and nearby they do not have object for hunting.

WAB, I have read that too, but it contradicts the fact that a Mansi man and his dog found the clues that led to the discovery of the RAV4.

"When in May the snow start melting a Mansi native Kurikov with his dog noticed some cut branches that were forming sort of trail which they followed and 50 m from the cedar they found black cotton sweat pants, the right leg cut off with a knife."

So I guess the Mansi people do go there.

February 17, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
Reply #39
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WAB


Mansi there do not go. Their line of hunting is approximately in 15 km (~ 10 mi) from pass. On a grief and nearby they do not have object for hunting.

WAB, I have read that too, but it contradicts the fact that a Mansi man and his dog found the clues that led to the discovery of the RAV4.

"When in May the snow start melting a Mansi native Kurikov with his dog noticed some cut branches that were forming sort of trail which they followed and 50 m from the cedar they found black cotton sweat pants, the right leg cut off with a knife."

So I guess the Mansi people do go there.

Dear sug2h !
Let's understand under separate points of this fact.
1.I wrote that usual life (hunting and stage of deer after 1950) Mansi there do not go because this it is not present such necessity.
2.Those Mansi about which you write were specially and for good payment are employed for this purpose what to participate in search.
These are different positions.
I collected the information directly at local Mansi. For example, at the man which father participated in search expedition.

February 17, 2019, 03:56:52 PM
Reply #40
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Mansi there do not go. Their line of hunting is approximately in 15 km (~ 10 mi) from pass. On a grief and nearby they do not have object for hunting.

WAB, I have read that too, but it contradicts the fact that a Mansi man and his dog found the clues that led to the discovery of the RAV4.

"When in May the snow start melting a Mansi native Kurikov with his dog noticed some cut branches that were forming sort of trail which they followed and 50 m from the cedar they found black cotton sweat pants, the right leg cut off with a knife."

So I guess the Mansi people do go there.

Ok, so I think what you are saying is that it's likely that Kolevatov moved his injured friends there, and that it's quite possible that during the thaw Luda's body moved into that position.

Ok thanks.  Seems reasonable.

February 17, 2019, 05:09:05 PM
Reply #41
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sarapuk

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But the melt water had created a "cave" with an unstable roof above. The ravine deaths were caused by the group falling through the roof, probably some landing on top of others and/or the roof falling on top of them afterwards
Now that's an interesting theory about the ravine!  thumb1  Snow can get pretty heavy when it's compacted, so this roof could be "the large mass" that hit Lyudmila and Semyon, causing those fatal injuries. But would this cave be deep enough, though?


NOTE ; Obviously at some stage of this Dyatlov story everyone will be drawn to the serious injuries to one person in particular, DUBININA.  And the injuries that stand out are [1] MISSING EYES [2] MISSING TONGUE [3] CRUSHED RIBS. [3] would have needed a concentrated force so avalanche or snow fall can virtually be ruled out.
DB

February 17, 2019, 05:15:39 PM
Reply #42
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sarapuk

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Some interesting thoughts and ideas. 

So Kelevatov carries his injured friends and puts them there.  It's simple and makes sense.

A snow cave forms and they fall through sustaining the injuries. - possible

Snow falls on the bodies and causes the injuries - also possible

Going back to Luda's position.  Given that rigor Morris would set in not long after death. Is it possible that she could have moved after death into that position?  Seems unlikelymtomme but interested in others thoughts?

I would have thought that it was more likely that the 4 at the ravine made it there on their own effort. The serious injuries wouldnt have been caused by any kind of snow fall at the Ravine because the Ravine isnt substantial enough. Snow falling on bodies wouldnt have caused those extraordinary injuries. I would have thought that DUBININA met her demise at the Ravine.
DB

February 18, 2019, 01:31:42 AM
Reply #43
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Nigel Evans


Hi thanks for your reply.

If the ravine is 5 metres deep

Depth of coast is equal in that place where have found these 4 body is  2 … 2,5 m. Therefore big heights cannot be. In consequence documents it is written: “They have been dug out from under snow by depth from 2,5 metres to 2 metres.” (c) if deeper sizes it exists only as result different conversation with distortion have been resulted.
But could they have been injured upstream and then carried downstream? Is there a bigger fall upstream?



In the end of February of snow was more than in the beginning, but it is not enough. A body of Zina have found under snow about 10 cm, and a body of Rustem have found under snow nearby 30 cm and Distance between these places of equally 150 metres see. It turns out that on distance in 400 foots of snow became in 3 times more! It means that it is postponed non-uniformly in different places.
But even if over bodies in a ravine there was no more than 30 cm (12 inches) that them could not see. They were under snow.
My assumption here is that wind drift can fill the ravine quickly, but you seem to be saying that in the forest this is not likely? So the den was somehow accessible under 2m of snow.



No. There blow same a wind, as around. From the West warmer air comes, but it does not mean that it absolutely warm. For example, if the average temperature of February is equal in this place-23...-27С (- 10 …-17 F)/ If from the West air blow contain temperature -15 …-18C (0 …-5 F).it is up 5 … 10 degrees "more warmly" by Celsius and up 10 … 12 degrees by Farenheit. It air blow is “warmly”.  grin1
The theory is that the warm wind would be from the electro magnetism producing the NO2 as evidenced by the sastrugi, hot spot, lack of frostbite etc. Warm means above freezing, maybe +20C!



February 20, 2019, 11:03:16 AM
Reply #44
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sug2h


Dear sug2h !
Let's understand under separate points of this fact.
1.I wrote that usual life (hunting and stage of deer after 1950) Mansi there do not go because this it is not present such necessity.
2.Those Mansi about which you write were specially and for good payment are employed for this purpose what to participate in search.
These are different positions.
I collected the information directly at local Mansi. For example, at the man which father participated in search expedition.
Thank you WAB for making it clear for me, now I understand!!!  thumb1 thumb1

February 22, 2019, 04:01:50 PM
Reply #45
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Kolevatov's Fink.  The knife was found in the tent.  The sheath for the knife was later found in a place outside the tent.

Did Kolevatov draw his knife from the sheath outside, throw the sheath to the ground and then went into the tent with his knife?  Or maybe he threw the knife back into the tent?

Did he draw the knife inside the tent, and sheath was dragged outside by people's feet as they rapidly left the tent?

Had he lost his sheath outside while he was using his knife?

Why had he drawn his knife from its sheath?  Was he using it to cut the loin?

Why didn't he take the knife with him?

March 13, 2019, 10:01:25 AM
Reply #46

Clacon

Guest
Hi All, in particular Starman - new here and was just reading through the post you started entitled "Specific Details". Hoping I'm not overstepping here being such a novice, but here it goes:

Specific details are so important and are what I'm into (lol) which is what drew me to your post in the first place. With regards to the fink and knives in general (and adding to the mystery in the first place) I am not entirely sure we can trust searchers' or authorities' accounts of what was found in the tent, outside the tent, at the cedar, in the ravine and areas inbetween.


I don't know if its because there's a coverup or they felt they were still alive and focussed on finding them instead of cataloguing everything they found, but there is a frustrating lack of or conflict between, specific details and evidence found and Igor's jacket is a great example of this.


Getting back to the first point, are there ANY accounts of any cutting tools found outside of the tent?? There are accounts of branches being cut and the tops of shrubs also (plus clothes were cut from corpses), so what did they use if it was all left in the tent???


The accounts of the whereabouts of Kolevatov's fink, maybe perhaps as was concluded with accounts of the tent in earlier posts, I think is fallible.  Perhaps if this is a coverup, someone planted the knife in the tent? Perhaps the account of it being in the tent and the sheath out of it are not accurate?


What do you believe??



March 13, 2019, 03:53:19 PM
Reply #47
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi All, in particular Starman - new here and was just reading through the post you started entitled "Specific Details". Hoping I'm not overstepping here being such a novice, but here it goes:

Specific details are so important and are what I'm into (lol) which is what drew me to your post in the first place. With regards to the fink and knives in general (and adding to the mystery in the first place) I am not entirely sure we can trust searchers' or authorities' accounts of what was found in the tent, outside the tent, at the cedar, in the ravine and areas inbetween.


I don't know if its because there's a coverup or they felt they were still alive and focussed on finding them instead of cataloguing everything they found, but there is a frustrating lack of or conflict between, specific details and evidence found and Igor's jacket is a great example of this.


Getting back to the first point, are there ANY accounts of any cutting tools found outside of the tent?? There are accounts of branches being cut and the tops of shrubs also (plus clothes were cut from corpses), so what did they use if it was all left in the tent???


The accounts of the whereabouts of Kolevatov's fink, maybe perhaps as was concluded with accounts of the tent in earlier posts, I think is fallible.  Perhaps if this is a coverup, someone planted the knife in the tent? Perhaps the account of it being in the tent and the sheath out of it are not accurate?


What do you believe??

You are right to be cautious about the information presented on the scene at the tent and the camp.  It is likely that some of the evidence wasn't properly preserved.  When the search and rescue team found the tent, they still hoped that the tourists would be found alive, so were unlikely to treat the scene with the level of care required.  I agree that the fink and the sheath may have been a result of how the scene was treated and the items including the tent recovered.  If my memory serves me right, the sheath was found only after the snow had melted.  There are 3 witness statements that place Igors jacket in different places, including shoved in a hole in the side of the tent, just outside the entrance and 10 metres from the entrance, so yes it's difficult to make solid conclusions.

I think the cedar and ravine are probably better preserved.

There investigation appears to have a lot of missing information and seems unreasonably sloppy, which does lead people to think there was some kind of cover up.

They had at least one knife.  Rustem Slobodin had a pen knife in his pocket when he was found.  There may have been another knife.  The fir trees around the cedar appEared to be cut with a knife.

I think the details are important.  It's easy to to overlook things  that seems simple and obvious but may hold additional information.  For instance the black and grimy appearance of Dyatlov's hands.  Some think the colour is due to frost  bite of the skin (could be) but it also might indicate that he didn't die before he got to the cedar tree and that those hands did a lot of work before he died.  Climbing trees, digging dens, cutting tree branches or making a fire.

Regards

Star man

March 20, 2019, 08:26:16 PM
Reply #48
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sug2h


So I have a question regarding another specific detail.

When in may 1959, Kurikov and his dog found the clues about the location of the Rav4 bodies, they found 2 pieces of clothing: part of a sweat pants and part of a sweater.
My question is: how come these pieces of clothing were ON TOP of the snow? (or almost)
Compare these 2 pictures, you will see that the den and the other pieces of clothing are burried deep, under FEET of snow... I don't understand how the sweat pants and the sweater could be so visible for Kurikov.




March 21, 2019, 12:46:43 AM
Reply #49
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Nigel Evans


So I have a question regarding another specific detail.

When in may 1959, Kurikov and his dog found the clues about the location of the Rav4 bodies, they found 2 pieces of clothing: part of a sweat pants and part of a sweater.
My question is: how come these pieces of clothing were ON TOP of the snow? (or almost)
Compare these 2 pictures, you will see that the den and the other pieces of clothing are burried deep, under FEET of snow... I don't understand how the sweat pants and the sweater could be so visible for Kurikov.




A plausible narrative is that they tore some of the clothing retrieved from the 2 Yuris to make seats for the den and these were redundant/not used. That they were found on top of the snow strengthens the argument that the level of snow in the ravine didn't change.

March 21, 2019, 06:54:42 AM
Reply #50

Clacon

Guest
So bizarre looking at that picture of the clothes on the branches (the 4 seats) in the den. They have no snow covering them, but the branches do. It was obviously recreated to take a picture right?

God knows what else was.

March 21, 2019, 07:20:59 AM
Reply #51
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Nigel Evans


So bizarre looking at that picture of the clothes on the branches (the 4 seats) in the den. They have no snow covering them, but the branches do. It was obviously recreated to take a picture right?

God knows what else was.
It's reasonable that in digging the den out they moved the clothing to look under it? They've also dug a trench along the side presumably before uncovering the seats?

March 21, 2019, 07:38:57 AM
Reply #52
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GeneralFailure


So bizarre looking at that picture of the clothes on the branches (the 4 seats) in the den. They have no snow covering them, but the branches do. It was obviously recreated to take a picture right?
God knows what else was.

It's not bizarre. It is impossible (my opinion). Clothes that have spent 3 months under 4 meters of packed snow are full of snow, frozen. In the picture we see normal, clean clothes. Also the piece of clothing on top of the snow, the others being located 4 meters under it. Impossible. At the moment of death, all the pieces of clothing were at the same level. In the meanwhile, it snowed a lot so ALL of them were covered with 4 meters of snow. There's no way one of them was teleported on top of the snow, the rest remaining 4 meters below.
We are looking at a very bad scenario.
In my opinion the entire scene is a setup.

March 21, 2019, 09:33:54 AM
Reply #53
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So I have a question regarding another specific detail.

When in may 1959, Kurikov and his dog found the clues about the location of the Rav4 bodies, they found 2 pieces of clothing: part of a sweat pants and part of a sweater.
My question is: how come these pieces of clothing were ON TOP of the snow? (or almost)
Compare these 2 pictures, you will see that the den and the other pieces of clothing are burried deep, under FEET of snow... I don't understand how the sweat pants and the sweater could be so visible for Kurikov.





It’s a good question.  I suppose it could be explained by snow drifting to different depths?

Regards
Star man

March 21, 2019, 09:07:30 PM
Reply #54
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sug2h


yes, I thought of that too. But then, another question comes up: how come these 2 pieces of clothing, if they were at a different spot where the snow didn't cumulate, were a clue for finding the den?
I mean, the guys seem to have found it very precisely. Look at the picture. They only shoveled this area! Several feet deep of snow shoveled, and bam! directly on the spot of the den... how bizarre...

The more I think of it, and the less it seems possible.

And if I add to this the new picture revealed recently on Russian Channel 1, I am tempted to conclude that the whole ravine area is staged.
I believe the man on the new picture is Aleksander Kolevatov, and he has clearly not just been taken out of the creek, otherwise his clothes would be wet (and would appear darker on the picture, just like on the May pictures)
I think the Rav4 have been discovered in February like the other ones, and probably closer to their teammates, and the rescue team decided to stage the ravine area. Why? Well, to hide something, obviously... I'm not sure what, but it must have to do with the wounds, since the Rav4 have the most bizarre wounds of the group... I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

March 21, 2019, 11:59:17 PM
Reply #55
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Monika


What was the exact depth of the den?

Looks like about 3m? I wonder how long it took for four people to build it with bare hands? Can anyone estimate it? dunno1  It had to be really hard work, I can't even image it, make it without gloves, barefoot, in despair, perhaps they were being driven by adrenaline.

The fact that the den was just so big that four people could fit there means they didn't count on the return of the trio. They were divided into two groups and each of them dealt with their situation separately? Or after the trio did not return for a long time, the four decided that they would build the den because they already knew the trio could not return to the tent?
Either way, the four seem to have survived as the last.

March 22, 2019, 12:07:14 AM
Reply #56
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
yes, I thought of that too. But then, another question comes up: how come these 2 pieces of clothing, if they were at a different spot where the snow didn't cumulate, were a clue for finding the den?
I mean, the guys seem to have found it very precisely. Look at the picture. They only shoveled this area! Several feet deep of snow shoveled, and bam! directly on the spot of the den... how bizarre...

The more I think of it, and the less it seems possible.

And if I add to this the new picture revealed recently on Russian Channel 1, I am tempted to conclude that the whole ravine area is staged.
I believe the man on the new picture is Aleksander Kolevatov, and he has clearly not just been taken out of the creek, otherwise his clothes would be wet (and would appear darker on the picture, just like on the May pictures)
I think the Rav4 have been discovered in February like the other ones, and probably closer to their teammates, and the rescue team decided to stage the ravine area. Why? Well, to hide something, obviously... I'm not sure what, but it must have to do with the wounds, since the Rav4 have the most bizarre wounds of the group... I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

If the new photo is Kolevatov, then that would be a significant finding.  One way to confirm is to try to match the clothes of the bodies and also look at other evidence on the clothing.   

I'm not an expert on tracking so can't really add much as to how they knew exactly where to dig.

It is interesting that the rag 4 had the most serious injuries and were the hardest to find.  However it could easily be explained if they had got those injuries and the den was built to keep them sheltered as they could not return to the tent.  The others then attempted to return but failed to get there?

Regards

Star man

March 22, 2019, 04:35:13 AM
Reply #57
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Nigel Evans


So I have a question regarding another specific detail.

When in may 1959, Kurikov and his dog found the clues about the location of the Rav4 bodies, they found 2 pieces of clothing: part of a sweat pants and part of a sweater.
My question is: how come these pieces of clothing were ON TOP of the snow? (or almost)
Compare these 2 pictures, you will see that the den and the other pieces of clothing are burried deep, under FEET of snow... I don't understand how the sweat pants and the sweater could be so visible for Kurikov.




A plausible narrative is that they tore some of the clothing retrieved from the 2 Yuris to make seats for the den and these were redundant/not used. That they were found on top of the snow strengthens the argument that the level of snow in the ravine didn't change.
Another narrative is that (assuming the crushed in the den by extreme force theory) any loose items would have been ejected from the den and thrown into the air landing on top of the snow.

March 22, 2019, 06:26:29 AM
Reply #58
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Nigel Evans


However it could easily be explained if they had got those injuries and the den was built to keep them sheltered as they could not return to the tent. 
No it doesn't fit, the den was built for able bodied seated occupants, not people with flail chests or crushed skulls.

March 22, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
Reply #59
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
However it could easily be explained if they had got those injuries and the den was built to keep them sheltered as they could not return to the tent. 
No it doesn't fit, the den was built for able bodied seated occupants, not people with flail chests or crushed skulls.

We don’t really know that it was built for able bodied people.  The seats were just a reconstruction.

Regards
Star man