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Author Topic: Evening Otorten №1  (Read 1907 times)

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February 08, 2019, 10:51:53 PM
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knocker


I see Evening Otorten №1 gets mostly dismissed as a joke by most people.  It shouldn't be dismissed so easily.  Jokes have a basis in reality.  That's what makes them funny.   Take the rest of the document for instance, it appears to be full of inside jokes. 

1) SPORT
A team of radio technicians including comrades Dorcschenko and Kolmorogorova set a new world record for portable stove assembly 1 hour 2 minutes, 27.4 seconds.

Of course nobody was timing them with a stop watch down to the tenth of a second, and I'm sure it didn't take them an hour.  They fumbled around for maybe 10 or 15 minutes to do a 3 minute job and got it done in the end.  Dyatlov seems to suggest that technical people such as radio experts maybe should have been able to do it quicker, and he made a joke out it.  I'm sure something like that happened.   

2) TECHNICAL NEWS
Tourist Sledge.

Good while riding on trains, by car or on horseback. Not recommended for freight transport while on snow.  For further information contact chief constructor com.(rade) Kolevatov


It's highly likely earlier that morning that Kolevatov tried to fashion some kind of crude sled he could pull behind himself so he didn't have to carry his pack on his back.  It obviously didn't work and he gave up and put his pack back on his back. Perhaps they had seen a Mansi hunter pulling a properly constructed one.  Again, something that probably happened.  I bet if the searchers had looked for it, they would have found the sled, a few miles back down the trail. 

3) PHILOSOPHICAL SEMINAR

on the topic of "love and tourism" takes place in the daily on the tent premises...

Dyatlov's diary actually makes reference to that very thing: "... We sang and sang, and no one even noticed how we started to discuss love issues, talking about kisses in particular. We talked all kinds of nonsense, of course; everyone was interested, everyone wanted to speak out, eventually trying to out-shout each other and prove their own opinion..."
Kolmgorovas' diary says:  "...The whole evening there was a discussion about love about friendship, about dances and other things..."

A joke, but not really.  They were doing that very thing.   

4) EDITORIAL

Greeting the XX1 convention of increased birthrate among tourists

The Soviets were always holding party conventions on one subject or another.  This was an obvious parody of that.  I don't want to make any accusations...  But did somebody get caught trying to put the lessons learned in the Philosophical Seminar into actual practice?  Or did somebody maybe suggest it might be a good idea to try to prove some of the theories?  That's an inside joke only the members of the expedition might have known the answer to.   But highly likely based on some sort of true story unfortunately we'll never hear.

THE YETI 

Did they actually see one?  We'll probably never know.  Did they see a person who they might have mistaken for a yeti?  That's possible.  Did they see a person and somebody made a joke about that person being a yeti?  Also possible.  Did some practical joker try to prank the rest of the group with a crude Yeti costume?  That's possible too.  What the entry does seem to suggest is that the topic was being discussed that day.    For some unknown reason we can only speculate on, the were talking about Big Foot.   Then later that very night, they all die mysterious and violent deaths.

Do we know for sure that the two are related? No.  But it is odd isn't it?  The coincidence.   If I had to guess, somebody or some thing was sneaking around.  And they did possibly photograph him/her/it, in Frame №17 from Thibeaux Brignolle's camera.    That the person was a yeti, was probably put forth as a joke by somebody.  That "yeti" came back later on that night and got a little closer.  If they were being followed it might explain why Thibeaux-Brignolle and Zolotarev were dressed and outside.  They were lookouts.   That footprint evidence seems to indicate they seemed not to run from the tent, but rather did so in an orderly fashion suggests they might have been marched away from it, as in, at gunpoint, by obviously not a yeti.    That tourists were known to carry guns on some of these trips is established by the story of Dubinina being shot by accident during a similar hike in 1957.  And that brings us to Yuri Yudin, the only survivor, the one who left before it started, apparently due to sudden illness. 

We know the group members were discussing sex, and love, and relationships, seemingly quite often the entire trip.  They might have even been engaging in it  in some cases.  8 young single males, 2 young single females.  That's a recipe for having a few odd men out, and we know how some boys can be in a situation like that.  According to Lyuda Dubinina's diary entry of Jan 28:   

"...Yuri Yudin goes back home today. It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it..."

It seems Yuri Yuden was a favorite of the two single ladies.   The same day Zina Kolmogorova records in her diary:

"...Last night the boys made stupid jokes. In my opinion, if we don't pay attention to them, maybe they will be less rude..."

At least some of, "Philosophical Seminars," seemed to have gotten out of hand at times, and the girls apparently didn't like it.  The evening of the 27th, the day before Yudin's early departure appears to be one of those occasions.  We don't know the exact pairings involved here,   but the narrative seems to suggest not all were happy about the, "Philosophical Seminars," and their outcomes. But we do know at least two people were less than thrilled with them.  Who knows who else got jilted or offended that night.  Perhaps Yuri Yudin.   

The year was 1959.  Morals were pretty tight for public consumption in the USSR.   But we also know they were pretty depraved behind the scenes.  It is well known that Soviet era prostitutes charged one of two rates, 3 or 5 rubles.    5 for the particularly young and pretty ones.   Casual sex was so common in the USSR nobody would pay for  what they could get for free any time they wanted.  Are we really sure we even know what these tourist trips were really all about?  Were they just innocent hikes in the forest, or more like the Soviet version of trips to a sex resort club for a 3 day orgy?  I know they never would have printed that detail in Tass back then.   Naturally they would have claimed that both women were as virgin as the fresh fallen snow to make sure anybody who may have heard the rumors knew enough to keep their mouths shut.  Maybe it's time to ask some of these, "tourists," what they were really doing out on these things while they are still alive. 

Yuri, Yeti, strikingly similar.  I bet the group knew Yuri was out there stalking them.   I bet that's him in the photo.  For my money, Yuri Yuden got the cold shoulder from Dubinina in particular, and the rest of the group in general.   He was told to go home.  Instead he followed them into the woods, confronted them all in the middle of the night at gunpoint.  Beat them to death and half to death, saving the worst for Dubinina.  He cut out her lying tongue and gouged out her eyes so she could never look at another man, probably one in particular.  That man was Zolotaryov, who also had his eyes gouged out.  Likely for the same reason.   Then he left them all to die.

 If there is a new investigation, I bet that's where it's going.   One more question to ask...  are we really sure those were all the pictures?  Or were there maybe a few more no upstanding Soviet would have wanted to see?                 

 

February 09, 2019, 12:08:10 AM
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knocker




Yuden and Lyudmila Dublinina, photographed just before Yuden went home.

I'm old enough to remember the old Soviet days.   And I remember on seeing on TV when Leonid Brezhnev used to hug and kiss another comrade on both cheeks as was the custom back in those days.  It was done stiff and rigid and very formal, I guess you could say.  But also very forceful.  Look at Yudin here.  He looks as if he doesn't even want to touch her.  The hand on her back is barely touching her if it is at all.  The hand in front isn't touching Dublinina at all.  That's not a hug.  That's a guy who is avoiding being hugged but going along with it sort of for the cameras. 

To me that photo seems to suggest tension.  Like a, we can still be friends, sort of thing.   Note the closed lip smile from Dublinina.   The closed lip smile tends to show somebody is hiding something, or that they're apprehensive about the situation and are uncomfortable.   Yuri on the other hand looks like he's trying way too hard to smile.     

February 09, 2019, 02:58:15 AM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Really can't see how one man Could beat seven other men and two women to death and torture them.  Even if he had a gun.

February 09, 2019, 07:24:33 AM
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Puchiko


I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

February 09, 2019, 11:37:45 AM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

No Luda's injuries to her chest was caused by a one off very high speed high force impact.  Between 2 and 2.7 tonnes of force.

February 09, 2019, 01:00:24 PM
Reply #5
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knocker


I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

I would assume Uncle Slava the horse sled driver was his alibi.  Uncle Slava, the Lithuanian enemy of the state who was rounded up in 1949, spent 10 years in the gulag, and was just released into the general population.  Probably swept up in Operation Priobi. The conditions of their imprisonment were so terrible, only 15% of the detainees survived.  Look it up.  He was central to the story too. 

So you have a disillusioned comrade of questionable political belief, and a Lithuanian counterrevolutionary just out of the gulag as the last people who saw the intrepid band of dedicated communist hikers alive. 

And are we really sure a rifle butt to the chest, likely repeatedly, couldn't have caused those injuries?  Jumping on the chest with both feet, are we sure that couldn't do it?  Some people said some of the injuries are similar to what Russian state interrogators would have inflicted on people.   You can well imagine Uncle Slava would have seen it all in his 10 years of living in the gulag system. 

I said one or two people could have done that.  If there was a second, you look at Uncle Slava as the co-conspirator.  If we could see the police files, I bet you see they had him at the station for a very long time for questioning, probably both.

You guys have to remember one thing about the old Soviet Union.  It was official policy that nothing bad ever happened in the Soviet Worker's Paradise.   The state was in control of everything, nothing happened without their permission.  The state was all powerful.  To admit officially that anybody got away with murder was not something it did.  Because it demonstrated that the state was not all powerful.  So that was never going to be admitted officially in any report.  But I bet you the actual police files tell a much different story.   

Nobody can find a motive.  I just laid one out, speculative at best, but the best one so far.     

February 09, 2019, 01:47:00 PM
Reply #6
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Puchiko


None of the murder theories work.

The attacker(s) would have to be powerful enough to force all nine out of the tent, but wouldn't prevent Zolotaryov from carrying a camera. Remember, these were nine young and physically strong people. Yuri and an old man wouldn't have been strong enough to overpower them. After forcing them out of the tent, they'd let them walk a mile, build a fire and the den (if it was a den). Why?
Then meet up with them at the ravine and finish them off with superhuman internal injuries but no soft tissue damage. Leave Zolotaryov's camera on his neck, not fearing it contained images of the attackers.

There's also no foreign footsteps at the scene, although I consider all of the evidence regarding the footsteps to be so poorly documented that I don't really take them into account. But the above is enough in my opinion.

February 09, 2019, 01:54:33 PM
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knocker


"...Yuri Yudin goes back home today. It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it..."

I'm beginning to believe that the above statement is actually sarcastic.  Kolmogorova expressed the same general sentiment, of his leaving being, "a pity."

Yes, Yura Yudin is leaving us today. His sciatic nerves inflamed again and he is leaving. Such a pity.

Years ago I remember reading that when NKVD chief Yagoda was arrested, he told his captors, "It is a pity I didn't arrest(or kill) you when I had the chance."  Not sure of the exact wording, but it was something close to that. 

I get the feeling that when Russians speak of things being a pity, it's usually sarcasm.  Like we might say....  "I heard that jerk fell down and broke his leg.  Too bad he didn't break both of them."   Maybe a Russian speaker could clarify that.  It is interesting that in the very same diary entry Kolmogorova  says:

Today I wore Yuri's mittens, but how I did not want to! I was told that is not good not to accept them, so I took them. We talk. Not much.   

It appears maybe he didn't get along all that well with the 2 girls. 

February 09, 2019, 02:03:37 PM
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Puchiko



Today I wore Yuri's mittens, but how I did not want to! I was told that is not good not to accept them, so I took them. We talk. Not much.   

It appears maybe he didn't get along all that well with the 2 girls.

I think that's Yuri Doroshenko, who she had previously dated. She had even introduced him to her parents, but they broke up before the Dyatlov expedition. Zina’s friend Valentina Tokareva shared a letter Zina wrote to her on the day of the expedition.
"My dearest Valya, here we are on our way to the expedition. Do you want a surprise? Yuri Doroshenko is coming with us. I really don’t know how I’ll feel. I relate to him like anyone else, but it’s really hard, because we are together and yet we’re not together." That's what the mittens were about. Nobody wants their ex's mittens!

February 09, 2019, 02:23:21 PM
Reply #9
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knocker


None of the murder theories work.

The attacker(s) would have to be powerful enough to force all nine out of the tent, but wouldn't prevent Zolotaryov from carrying a camera. Remember, these were nine young and physically strong people. Yuri and an old man wouldn't have been strong enough to overpower them. After forcing them out of the tent, they'd let them walk a mile, build a fire and the den (if it was a den). Why?
Then meet up with them at the ravine and finish them off with superhuman internal injuries but no soft tissue damage. Leave Zolotaryov's camera on his neck, not fearing it contained images of the attackers.

There's also no foreign footsteps at the scene, although I consider all of the evidence regarding the footsteps to be so poorly documented that I don't really take them into account. But the above is enough in my opinion.

I don't think they did have them all.   There weren't enough people there to gather them all up and keep them in one place.  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko got away and hid up the cedar tree and stayed there until the coast was clear.  They were there probably a long time, half frozen to death by the time the killer(s) left and they felt it was safe to start a fire.   You can't assume the fire was started immediately.  In fact it would be foolish to.   If they could get that fire started early, they wouldn't have frozen to death.  They got it going too late to do any good.   One of my brother's friends ditched a single engine plane into lake Erie in December back in the 90's.  He was an hour and a half sitting soaking wet on the wing of the plane before the Coast Guard chopper came.  By the time the coast guard found him, he couldn't move or talk, he was almost dead.  It was a miracle he even lived.   Eventually you get to the point where a small fire isn't going to save you.  That's where Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were.

The rest got marched to the river.  At some point Dyatlov and Kolmogorova  fought their way out and escaped.  Again, with not enough people to hold the rest captive and chase after the fugitives, they got away.  They ran off into the night and built the crude dugout shelter and stayed there.  Probably like Doroshenko and Krivonischenko who were up the tree, they were there maybe several hours, while the rest of the group was tortured and killed.   By the time they felt it was safe to try to get back to the tent, they were half dead too.  They stopped at the tree and found  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko dead, took some of their clothes, but never made it much further.  The mistake is in believing it all happened at once in the span of a couple of minutes. 

As to the footprints.  Get a friend, take off your boots and walk through the snow in your socks.  The second person will always walk in the first persons footprints.  It's human nature to do that.  To say that there was 8 sets of footprints means there was 8 people is a stretch of logic when they're all in essentially socks or glorified socks.  Even at gunpoint and told to keep spread out.  Some of them would have been walking in other people's footprints.  Meaning there was more than 8 people.  If they weren't at gunpoint, there would have been one set of footprints.  But like you say, you can't read too much into that.  Soviet investigators were famous for just rounding up suspects and beating a few of them into confessing, not good solid police work.   Competent forensic investigation wasn't something they were good at.     


February 09, 2019, 02:26:17 PM
Reply #10
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knocker



Today I wore Yuri's mittens, but how I did not want to! I was told that is not good not to accept them, so I took them. We talk. Not much.   

It appears maybe he didn't get along all that well with the 2 girls.

I think that's Yuri Doroshenko, who she had previously dated. She had even introduced him to her parents, but they broke up before the Dyatlov expedition. Zina’s friend Valentina Tokareva shared a letter Zina wrote to her on the day of the expedition.
"My dearest Valya, here we are on our way to the expedition. Do you want a surprise? Yuri Doroshenko is coming with us. I really don’t know how I’ll feel. I relate to him like anyone else, but it’s really hard, because we are together and yet we’re not together." That's what the mittens were about. Nobody wants their ex's mittens!

Could be.  When the girls talk of Yuri Yuden, they seem to use both first and last name, which would seem to demonstrate and unfamiliarity.  Probably right. 

February 09, 2019, 02:38:03 PM
Reply #11
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Puchiko


The rest got marched to the river.  At some point Dyatlov and Kolmogorova  fought their way out and escaped.  Again, with not enough people to hold the rest captive and chase after the fugitives, they got away.  They ran off into the night and built the crude dugout shelter and stayed there.  Probably like Doroshenko and Krivonischenko who were up the tree, they were there maybe several hours, while the rest of the group was tortured and killed.   By the time they felt it was safe to try to get back to the tent, they were half dead too.  They stopped at the tree and found  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko dead, took some of their clothes, but never made it much further.  The mistake is in believing it all happened at once in the span of a couple of minutes. 
The den was 20 metres from Ludmila's body. That's not really far enough to "run off and hide". Ludmila's foot was wrapped in a piece of Krivonishenko's underpants and she was wearing Krivonishenko's brown sweater that tested radioactive. Since she took Krivonishenko's clothes, it appears that she died after him. Again, doesn't make sense if she was under the attacker's control the whole time. Semyon was wearing Dubinina's faux fur coat and hat - is it because she died first or was she meant to stay in the shelter while he went outside (to carry wounded Kolevatov, to get something from the tent, to collect firewood)? Could he have been wearing her coat all the way from the tent? I don't know but there's too many holes in the murder theory.

February 09, 2019, 04:26:04 PM
Reply #12
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


Yuden and Lyudmila Dublinina, photographed just before Yuden went home.

I'm old enough to remember the old Soviet days.   And I remember on seeing on TV when Leonid Brezhnev used to hug and kiss another comrade on both cheeks as was the custom back in those days.  It was done stiff and rigid and very formal, I guess you could say.  But also very forceful.  Look at Yudin here.  He looks as if he doesn't even want to touch her.  The hand on her back is barely touching her if it is at all.  The hand in front isn't touching Dublinina at all.  That's not a hug.  That's a guy who is avoiding being hugged but going along with it sort of for the cameras. 

To me that photo seems to suggest tension.  Like a, we can still be friends, sort of thing.   Note the closed lip smile from Dublinina.   The closed lip smile tends to show somebody is hiding something, or that they're apprehensive about the situation and are uncomfortable.   Yuri on the other hand looks like he's trying way too hard to smile.     

Looks like a warm and genuine embrace to me. Doesnt look like any tension whatsoever.
DB

February 09, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Reply #13
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Really can't see how one man Could beat seven other men and two women to death and torture them.  Even if he had a gun.

Thats right.  Also if there were more than one attacker how come they couldnt stop some of the Dyatlov Group from climbing the Tree and carrying a flashlight and camera etc etc.
DB

February 09, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

No Luda's injuries to her chest was caused by a one off very high speed high force impact.  Between 2 and 2.7 tonnes of force.

Or something very powerful crushed her. It neednt be high speed.
DB

February 09, 2019, 04:33:21 PM
Reply #15
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

I would assume Uncle Slava the horse sled driver was his alibi.  Uncle Slava, the Lithuanian enemy of the state who was rounded up in 1949, spent 10 years in the gulag, and was just released into the general population.  Probably swept up in Operation Priobi. The conditions of their imprisonment were so terrible, only 15% of the detainees survived.  Look it up.  He was central to the story too. 

So you have a disillusioned comrade of questionable political belief, and a Lithuanian counterrevolutionary just out of the gulag as the last people who saw the intrepid band of dedicated communist hikers alive. 

And are we really sure a rifle butt to the chest, likely repeatedly, couldn't have caused those injuries?  Jumping on the chest with both feet, are we sure that couldn't do it?  Some people said some of the injuries are similar to what Russian state interrogators would have inflicted on people.   You can well imagine Uncle Slava would have seen it all in his 10 years of living in the gulag system. 

I said one or two people could have done that.  If there was a second, you look at Uncle Slava as the co-conspirator.  If we could see the police files, I bet you see they had him at the station for a very long time for questioning, probably both.

You guys have to remember one thing about the old Soviet Union.  It was official policy that nothing bad ever happened in the Soviet Worker's Paradise.   The state was in control of everything, nothing happened without their permission.  The state was all powerful.  To admit officially that anybody got away with murder was not something it did.  Because it demonstrated that the state was not all powerful.  So that was never going to be admitted officially in any report.  But I bet you the actual police files tell a much different story.   

Nobody can find a motive.  I just laid one out, speculative at best, but the best one so far.     

Apparently the skin and muscle wall of the chest were not damaged so that probably rules out a repeated beating or stamping action.
DB

February 09, 2019, 04:37:57 PM
Reply #16
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
None of the murder theories work.

The attacker(s) would have to be powerful enough to force all nine out of the tent, but wouldn't prevent Zolotaryov from carrying a camera. Remember, these were nine young and physically strong people. Yuri and an old man wouldn't have been strong enough to overpower them. After forcing them out of the tent, they'd let them walk a mile, build a fire and the den (if it was a den). Why?
Then meet up with them at the ravine and finish them off with superhuman internal injuries but no soft tissue damage. Leave Zolotaryov's camera on his neck, not fearing it contained images of the attackers.

There's also no foreign footsteps at the scene, although I consider all of the evidence regarding the footsteps to be so poorly documented that I don't really take them into account. But the above is enough in my opinion.

I don't think they did have them all.   There weren't enough people there to gather them all up and keep them in one place.  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko got away and hid up the cedar tree and stayed there until the coast was clear.  They were there probably a long time, half frozen to death by the time the killer(s) left and they felt it was safe to start a fire.   You can't assume the fire was started immediately.  In fact it would be foolish to.   If they could get that fire started early, they wouldn't have frozen to death.  They got it going too late to do any good.   One of my brother's friends ditched a single engine plane into lake Erie in December back in the 90's.  He was an hour and a half sitting soaking wet on the wing of the plane before the Coast Guard chopper came.  By the time the coast guard found him, he couldn't move or talk, he was almost dead.  It was a miracle he even lived.   Eventually you get to the point where a small fire isn't going to save you.  That's where Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were.

The rest got marched to the river.  At some point Dyatlov and Kolmogorova  fought their way out and escaped.  Again, with not enough people to hold the rest captive and chase after the fugitives, they got away.  They ran off into the night and built the crude dugout shelter and stayed there.  Probably like Doroshenko and Krivonischenko who were up the tree, they were there maybe several hours, while the rest of the group was tortured and killed.   By the time they felt it was safe to try to get back to the tent, they were half dead too.  They stopped at the tree and found  Doroshenko and Krivonischenko dead, took some of their clothes, but never made it much further.  The mistake is in believing it all happened at once in the span of a couple of minutes. 

As to the footprints.  Get a friend, take off your boots and walk through the snow in your socks.  The second person will always walk in the first persons footprints.  It's human nature to do that.  To say that there was 8 sets of footprints means there was 8 people is a stretch of logic when they're all in essentially socks or glorified socks.  Even at gunpoint and told to keep spread out.  Some of them would have been walking in other people's footprints.  Meaning there was more than 8 people.  If they weren't at gunpoint, there would have been one set of footprints.  But like you say, you can't read too much into that.  Soviet investigators were famous for just rounding up suspects and beating a few of them into confessing, not good solid police work.   Competent forensic investigation wasn't something they were good at.   

Doesnt sound like a very clever murder attempt then if what you say is correct. Someone or some people go to all that trouble and risk of getting to that wilderness area only to make a hash of it  !  ? 
DB

February 09, 2019, 08:34:44 PM
Reply #17
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knocker


No, it wasn't very clever.  Most average people who try to commit a murder do a horrible job of it.  They're on tilt to begin with and can't think straight, sometimes they're drunk or on drugs.  Once the things get underway, emotions run high and so does adrenaline, people stop thinking altogether and just act, in often strange and illogical manners.    If it was sweet and tidy you suspect government professionals. 

All hell broke loose that night and nobody was in control or thinking very straight, that much is apparent. 

February 09, 2019, 08:41:25 PM
Reply #18
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knocker


I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

I would assume Uncle Slava the horse sled driver was his alibi.  Uncle Slava, the Lithuanian enemy of the state who was rounded up in 1949, spent 10 years in the gulag, and was just released into the general population.  Probably swept up in Operation Priobi. The conditions of their imprisonment were so terrible, only 15% of the detainees survived.  Look it up.  He was central to the story too. 

So you have a disillusioned comrade of questionable political belief, and a Lithuanian counterrevolutionary just out of the gulag as the last people who saw the intrepid band of dedicated communist hikers alive. 

And are we really sure a rifle butt to the chest, likely repeatedly, couldn't have caused those injuries?  Jumping on the chest with both feet, are we sure that couldn't do it?  Some people said some of the injuries are similar to what Russian state interrogators would have inflicted on people.   You can well imagine Uncle Slava would have seen it all in his 10 years of living in the gulag system. 

I said one or two people could have done that.  If there was a second, you look at Uncle Slava as the co-conspirator.  If we could see the police files, I bet you see they had him at the station for a very long time for questioning, probably both.

You guys have to remember one thing about the old Soviet Union.  It was official policy that nothing bad ever happened in the Soviet Worker's Paradise.   The state was in control of everything, nothing happened without their permission.  The state was all powerful.  To admit officially that anybody got away with murder was not something it did.  Because it demonstrated that the state was not all powerful.  So that was never going to be admitted officially in any report.  But I bet you the actual police files tell a much different story.   

Nobody can find a motive.  I just laid one out, speculative at best, but the best one so far.     

Apparently the skin and muscle wall of the chest were not damaged so that probably rules out a repeated beating or stamping action.

She was wearing 2 shirts and 2 sweaters.  That's a lot of padding.  I'm not sure a rifle butt or a pair of boots would make a mark on the skin through all that.  But the bone breaking compression injury would still be inflicted.    But I'm not a coroner.  Maybe it would. 

February 09, 2019, 09:21:30 PM
Reply #19
Offline

knocker


I had a retired cop tell me once about questioning witnesses, victims and perps to crimes.   He said you get the guy to tell his whole story once through with no interruptions.  Then you have him tell it again and at every little micro fact you stop and ask him why he did that, or how he did that, or what he was thinking at the time.   For instance the guy said he walked out on the porch, saw his neighbor get shot, slammed the door and went to look out the side window.  The cop will ask,

Cop - Why did you slam the door and go look out the window? 

Witness - I dunno, I wanted to see if he was still there I guess. 

Cop - Weren't you afraid the killer would shoot you through the window? 

Witness - I dunno.  I dunno what I was thinking.

When you hear a story like that, that's a guy who's telling the truth.  Frightened people do stupid things and they don't even know why they did them.  When the witness has a perfectly logical answer for every little thing he did, that' guy is telling a BS story.   He's trying too hard to convince you everything he said is true.   The guy who is telling the truth is not trying to sell you anything, he's just telling you what happened as if you'll automatically believe it because it's true.  You can't not believe the truth.  That's what people think.

In reality, crime scenes are confused, chaotic, senseless.  People do things that are stupid and make no sense more than they do things that are logical and reasonable.   You guys watch too much TV where the criminals are all professional contract killers and the victims are all Rambo in disguise.   In real life it doesn't work that way.   

If you want to read a good case of just how stupid, drunken, sloppy, idiotic even hardened killers can be, look up The Shedden Massacare.   A biker gang murder of 8 people that happened not far from where I live.   The whole thing was an utter comedy of errors.         

February 10, 2019, 01:03:28 AM
Reply #20
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The massacre sounds very sad.

Luda and Semyon's injuries are consistent with a single high speed high force impact.  Hence the line of straight fractures and the flail chest.

February 11, 2019, 01:32:42 PM
Reply #21
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
No, it wasn't very clever.  Most average people who try to commit a murder do a horrible job of it.  They're on tilt to begin with and can't think straight, sometimes they're drunk or on drugs.  Once the things get underway, emotions run high and so does adrenaline, people stop thinking altogether and just act, in often strange and illogical manners.    If it was sweet and tidy you suspect government professionals. 

All hell broke loose that night and nobody was in control or thinking very straight, that much is apparent.

Well you are of course talking averages, fair enough, but what of the non average murder  !  ?  And  Government Professionals dont always do a sweet and tidy job.  Nobody was in control  !  ?  How can we know that.
DB

February 11, 2019, 01:36:50 PM
Reply #22
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I haven't been able to find anything specific about Yuri's alibi, but I would presume that as incompetent as the investigators were, they would bother to check that Yuri did actually come back to Vizhay.

And Ludmila's injuries couldn't have been caused by a beating anyway.

I would assume Uncle Slava the horse sled driver was his alibi.  Uncle Slava, the Lithuanian enemy of the state who was rounded up in 1949, spent 10 years in the gulag, and was just released into the general population.  Probably swept up in Operation Priobi. The conditions of their imprisonment were so terrible, only 15% of the detainees survived.  Look it up.  He was central to the story too. 

So you have a disillusioned comrade of questionable political belief, and a Lithuanian counterrevolutionary just out of the gulag as the last people who saw the intrepid band of dedicated communist hikers alive. 

And are we really sure a rifle butt to the chest, likely repeatedly, couldn't have caused those injuries?  Jumping on the chest with both feet, are we sure that couldn't do it?  Some people said some of the injuries are similar to what Russian state interrogators would have inflicted on people.   You can well imagine Uncle Slava would have seen it all in his 10 years of living in the gulag system. 

I said one or two people could have done that.  If there was a second, you look at Uncle Slava as the co-conspirator.  If we could see the police files, I bet you see they had him at the station for a very long time for questioning, probably both.

You guys have to remember one thing about the old Soviet Union.  It was official policy that nothing bad ever happened in the Soviet Worker's Paradise.   The state was in control of everything, nothing happened without their permission.  The state was all powerful.  To admit officially that anybody got away with murder was not something it did.  Because it demonstrated that the state was not all powerful.  So that was never going to be admitted officially in any report.  But I bet you the actual police files tell a much different story.   

Nobody can find a motive.  I just laid one out, speculative at best, but the best one so far.     

Apparently the skin and muscle wall of the chest were not damaged so that probably rules out a repeated beating or stamping action.

She was wearing 2 shirts and 2 sweaters.  That's a lot of padding.  I'm not sure a rifle butt or a pair of boots would make a mark on the skin through all that.  But the bone breaking compression injury would still be inflicted.    But I'm not a coroner.  Maybe it would.

In that case the fact that she was well clothed is all the more reason to suspect that it wasnt a rifle butt or someone stamping on her, etc.  Because it would need even more force and therefore you would expect damage to the skin and muscle of the Chest area, of which there was NON.
DB

February 11, 2019, 01:43:52 PM
Reply #23
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I had a retired cop tell me once about questioning witnesses, victims and perps to crimes.   He said you get the guy to tell his whole story once through with no interruptions.  Then you have him tell it again and at every little micro fact you stop and ask him why he did that, or how he did that, or what he was thinking at the time.   For instance the guy said he walked out on the porch, saw his neighbor get shot, slammed the door and went to look out the side window.  The cop will ask,

Cop - Why did you slam the door and go look out the window? 

Witness - I dunno, I wanted to see if he was still there I guess. 

Cop - Weren't you afraid the killer would shoot you through the window? 

Witness - I dunno.  I dunno what I was thinking.

When you hear a story like that, that's a guy who's telling the truth.  Frightened people do stupid things and they don't even know why they did them.  When the witness has a perfectly logical answer for every little thing he did, that' guy is telling a BS story.   He's trying too hard to convince you everything he said is true.   The guy who is telling the truth is not trying to sell you anything, he's just telling you what happened as if you'll automatically believe it because it's true.  You can't not believe the truth.  That's what people think.

In reality, crime scenes are confused, chaotic, senseless.  People do things that are stupid and make no sense more than they do things that are logical and reasonable.   You guys watch too much TV where the criminals are all professional contract killers and the victims are all Rambo in disguise.   In real life it doesn't work that way.   

If you want to read a good case of just how stupid, drunken, sloppy, idiotic even hardened killers can be, look up The Shedden Massacare.   A biker gang murder of 8 people that happened not far from where I live.   The whole thing was an utter comedy of errors.         

People who commit a crime and try to get away with it after being caught do not conform to any set pattern. So investigation / interviewing of suspects can not be considered as an exact art, it is very variable.  Not sure if us guys means absolutely everyone who is a member of the Dyatlov Pass Forum  !  ?
DB

February 12, 2019, 10:17:21 PM
Reply #24
Offline

knocker


Generally speaking.  You can't make the statement, Dyatlov would never do that because he was a smart guy and the leader with a responsibility blah, blah blah...   It would probably shock us what they did and didn't do that night.    The point I'm trying to get across is that panicked and frightened people don't always act the way you think they would.   You can't say they would do this or that, because that's what a rational person would do. 

Those 8 guys who were killed in the Shedden Massacare.  They were outlaw bikers, professional criminals, marched out of the barn one at a time and shot.  After being told they were going to be taken out and shot.   Nobody fought back, nobody resisted.  Some cried and begged as they were being dragged out, some prayed, some went silent without saying a word.  They were all shot.  And the bikers who shot them did such a total idiotic job of it they got caught.  They wanted to drive the cars to Toronto and burn them there to make it look like the Hell's Angels did it.   The cars ran out of gas before they got there so they had to pull over and do it some place else.  They forgot to bring more gas to start the cars on fire.  They had to just leave the cars with the dead bodies in them at the side of the road in a farmer's field.  So you can't say, no killer would have done this or that either.  Murderers do all kinds of stupid insane things that make no sense to a rational person. 

That the scene was chaotic and disorderly tends to prove it was murder.  Because that's what murder scenes look like.     

February 13, 2019, 12:10:47 PM
Reply #25
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Generally speaking.  You can't make the statement, Dyatlov would never do that because he was a smart guy and the leader with a responsibility blah, blah blah...   It would probably shock us what they did and didn't do that night.    The point I'm trying to get across is that panicked and frightened people don't always act the way you think they would.   You can't say they would do this or that, because that's what a rational person would do. 

Those 8 guys who were killed in the Shedden Massacare.  They were outlaw bikers, professional criminals, marched out of the barn one at a time and shot.  After being told they were going to be taken out and shot.   Nobody fought back, nobody resisted.  Some cried and begged as they were being dragged out, some prayed, some went silent without saying a word.  They were all shot.  And the bikers who shot them did such a total idiotic job of it they got caught.  They wanted to drive the cars to Toronto and burn them there to make it look like the Hell's Angels did it.   The cars ran out of gas before they got there so they had to pull over and do it some place else.  They forgot to bring more gas to start the cars on fire.  They had to just leave the cars with the dead bodies in them at the side of the road in a farmer's field.  So you can't say, no killer would have done this or that either.  Murderers do all kinds of stupid insane things that make no sense to a rational person. 

That the scene was chaotic and disorderly tends to prove it was murder.  Because that's what murder scenes look like.     

Well thats good enough points.  People intent on murderous activities dont always think through everything they are doing.  But would any person or persons go to all that trouble of being in a wilderness in extreme weather conditions just to attempt such a thing.  Plenty of less severe but still remote country on the way to that final location.
DB

February 14, 2019, 03:31:37 PM
Reply #26
Offline

knocker


I don't know.    Kolmogorova made an interesting statement n her diary that last day.  She said, " Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today."

I can't be sure exactly what that means, but it seems they were assigning lookouts to look out for something.  It could have an innocent explanation, looking for trail markers maybe, possibly that's the Russian lingo for the guy holding the compass and the map.  I think it's odd that on a windy night you don't try to put the tent in the bush.  Instead they put it out in the open with clear ground in every direction for 1000 meters.  If you don't want anybody to sneak up on you, that would be a good place to put it.   I'm surprised the diaries didn't note that though  more clearly.  You would think somebody would have written about that and stated it plainly, "We're being followed."  But there was a missing diary some people think.  Maybe it was in there.    There might be a page or two missing from other diaries as well.   And it is suspicious that Yudin's diary was torn in half, with all the pages from the days after he left the group missing.  I wonder what his excuse was for where the rest of the pages were?    Somebody had to ask..

Maybe the killer wanted to wait till night fall, far away from any other people.  He knew they were on to him, had to wait for a good time.  Maybe it took him that long to get drunk enough and brave enough to do it.   Who knows.   

Between typical Soviet era coverups, typical Soviet unwillingness to admit error, shoddy investigation, political undertones that always colored everything they did,  and all the time that has passed since, we will probably never know what happened or why.   

February 14, 2019, 03:54:48 PM
Reply #27
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I don't know.    Kolmogorova made an interesting statement n her diary that last day.  She said, " Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today."

I can't be sure exactly what that means, but it seems they were assigning lookouts to look out for something.  It could have an innocent explanation, looking for trail markers maybe, possibly that's the Russian lingo for the guy holding the compass and the map.  I think it's odd that on a windy night you don't try to put the tent in the bush.  Instead they put it out in the open with clear ground in every direction for 1000 meters.  If you don't want anybody to sneak up on you, that would be a good place to put it.   I'm surprised the diaries didn't note that though  more clearly.  You would think somebody would have written about that and stated it plainly, "We're being followed."  But there was a missing diary some people think.  Maybe it was in there.    There might be a page or two missing from other diaries as well.   And it is suspicious that Yudin's diary was torn in half, with all the pages from the days after he left the group missing.  I wonder what his excuse was for where the rest of the pages were?    Somebody had to ask..

Maybe the killer wanted to wait till night fall, far away from any other people.  He knew they were on to him, had to wait for a good time.  Maybe it took him that long to get drunk enough and brave enough to do it.   Who knows.   

Between typical Soviet era coverups, typical Soviet unwillingness to admit error, shoddy investigation, political undertones that always colored everything they did,  and all the time that has passed since, we will probably never know what happened or why.   

Lookouts were standard practice apparently.

February 15, 2019, 12:41:45 PM
Reply #28
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I don't know.    Kolmogorova made an interesting statement n her diary that last day.  She said, " Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today."

I can't be sure exactly what that means, but it seems they were assigning lookouts to look out for something.  It could have an innocent explanation, looking for trail markers maybe, possibly that's the Russian lingo for the guy holding the compass and the map.  I think it's odd that on a windy night you don't try to put the tent in the bush.  Instead they put it out in the open with clear ground in every direction for 1000 meters.  If you don't want anybody to sneak up on you, that would be a good place to put it.   I'm surprised the diaries didn't note that though  more clearly.  You would think somebody would have written about that and stated it plainly, "We're being followed."  But there was a missing diary some people think.  Maybe it was in there.    There might be a page or two missing from other diaries as well.   And it is suspicious that Yudin's diary was torn in half, with all the pages from the days after he left the group missing.  I wonder what his excuse was for where the rest of the pages were?    Somebody had to ask..

Maybe the killer wanted to wait till night fall, far away from any other people.  He knew they were on to him, had to wait for a good time.  Maybe it took him that long to get drunk enough and brave enough to do it.   Who knows.   

Between typical Soviet era coverups, typical Soviet unwillingness to admit error, shoddy investigation, political undertones that always colored everything they did,  and all the time that has passed since, we will probably never know what happened or why.   

I have thought about that WATCHMAN comment. All I can suggest is that their route takes them through remote wilderness areas where wild animals roam, including BEARS. But as I said to my Russian friend who comes from Yekaterinburg, if I was on such an expedition, I would want a gun for protection.
DB

February 18, 2019, 03:49:06 AM
Reply #29
Offline

knocker


I'm not sure, but bears should have been in hibernation at that time.   But maybe there's a few species native to Russia that don't hibernate, like the polar bear.  Possible I suppose.   Too bad there wasn't somebody a little more familiar with Russia here.