October 19, 2019, 10:48:25 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Kolevatov's device  (Read 1093 times)

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March 01, 2019, 05:54:17 AM
Read 1093 times
Offline

GeneralFailure


First, the facts:

1. Radioactive contamination of the clothes with beta emitters
Quote
Was there any contamination of the objects you are researching?
Answer: As stated in the conclusion, there is a contamination of radioactive substances (substance) by the beta emitters of individual, selectable areas of clothing, sent samples.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743

2. Strontium 90 is a common beta emiter
Quote
"Strontium-90 is a commonly used beta emitter used in industrial sources. [...]It is also used as a thermal power source in radioisotope thermoelectric generator power packs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_beta_emitters

3. Strontium 90 has been used in the Soviet Union for radioisotope devices

Quote
Strontium-90 has been used by the Soviet Union in terrestrial RTGs. 90Sr decays by β emission, with minor γ emission. While its half life of 28.8 years is much shorter than that of 238Pu, it also has a lower decay energy with a power density of 0.46 watts per gram.[16] Because the energy output is lower it reaches lower temperatures than 238Pu, which results in lower RTG efficiency. 90Sr is a high yield waste product of nuclear fission and is available in large quantities at a low price.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

Radioisotope heater units (RHU) are small devices that provide heat through radioactive decay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_heater_unit

Abandoned Soviet Nuclear Batteries Found and Recovered in Georgia"
Two encased but unshielded sources of strontium-90, found near Georgia's northern border with the breakaway republic of Abkhazia late last year were safely recovered and transported to a temporary storage facility on Sunday.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/8560/soviet-era-nuclear-batteries-found-in-georgia-(feb.-6).html



4. Nuclear physics student...
Quote
ALEKSANDER SERGEEVICH KOLEVATOV
Born on Nov. 16, 1934, in Sverdlovsk. A student of nuclear physics, he was a 4th year student as a Physics Major at the UPI University.
https://dyatlovpass.com/aleksander-kolevatov

6. ...has a mysterious device (which was not found inside the tent?)
Quote
28.2.58 [...]
"Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
https://dyatlovpass.com/28-january-1959


Now, the theory:

Kolevatov is a nuclear physics student(4). He is involved in developing Radioisotope heater units (or maybe Radioisotope battery) based on Strontium 90, an isotope used in the Soviet Union(3). He brings with him this experimental device (6).
During the group last night, they didn't assembled the stove(not enough firewood, strong wind etc). Instead, they tried to use Kolevatov's device. Something goes terribly wrong with this device, (maybe small explosion) gasses, steam etc are emitted. They got scared, they cut the tent for the gasses (and for them) to come out as quickly as possible (or the tent was ripped by the blast). They know that the emissions are radioactive and everything inside the tent is contaminated, so they could not use anything that was exposed to radiation (clothes, shoes etc). They decide to go as far as they can from the contaminated area. What happens next is their fight for survival ... running barefoot, climbing in the trees for firewood, falling, making fire etc Maybe they were also suffering from radiation sickness, making the fight for survival harder.

What happened with the device?  Probably the secret services, army etc took it and cleaned the site before sending be the search teams, as I could not find any information in the case files about it. As the site remained radioactive, they closed the public access in the area for the next years (I remember I've read somewhere on this forum that they've closed the area for the next years) .



March 01, 2019, 03:28:05 PM
Reply #1
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It's an interesting idea.  It would only take an incident where the device was damaged and the material to leak out to induce the team to evacuate the tent.  But why go over a mile down the slope?  Maybe because they knew they had to find an alternative shelter?


March 02, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
Reply #2
Offline

GeneralFailure


It's an interesting idea.  It would only take an incident where the device was damaged and the material to leak out to induce the team to evacuate the tent.  But why go over a mile down the slope?  Maybe because they knew they had to find an alternative shelter?
You are in the middle of the night, barely clothed, the temperature is very low, with very strong wind... you cannot take the clothes or anything inside the tent as it is contaminated... maybe the device in the tent is still emitting radioactive gasses etc... What to do? First you need to start a fire. Where you can find firewood? In the forest of course. Also the wind speed is lower.

OK, so until now, my theory proposed an explanation for half of the mystery, which is why they left the tent without taking anything with them.
Next, I propose an explanation for the next mysteries : why the victims at the cedar are undressed, and why the victims in the ravine are dressed but inside the water, clothes radioactive.

My hypothesis is the following: the ravine is a setup of the "cleaning" team.
All of the hikers died under the cedar, around the fire.
Some of them because of the injuries caused by falling from the cedar, some of them by freezing... maybe by radiation exposure.
All of them had contaminated clothes, but the cleaning team had to make somehow the radioactivity disappear, as taking/replacing their clothes would raise too many question marks.
What was the easiest and obvious method at the site? Put the clothes under running water. So they undressed some of the hikers and put their clothes on the others, and after this they submerged them in the water, hoping that until the spring will come, the water will wash away the radioactive particles from the clothes. That's why they've suspended the search for the hikers in the ravine until may.

Still need to find an explanation for the hikers found between the tent and the cedar.

March 02, 2019, 11:27:16 AM
Reply #3
Offline

Monika


But why would they make it so complicated? Why did not they just put them in closed coffins. And they found them in May because they were deep in the snow and in March the probe did not get to them.
And rely on the fact that the radioactivity will be washed out with the water is naive and unreliable method.
However, it is strange that the Investigator ever thought to test the body for radioactivity. Perhaps ihe was motivated by the fact that he noticed the burning ends of the trees near to the fire and ravine and began to have some suspicion. But it does not explain why the detector was with him? Does he usually wear it in his pocket???dunno1
Otherwise, I'm glad that someone still finds some new aspect that we can deal with. Thank you.

March 02, 2019, 12:57:48 PM
Reply #4
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
First, the facts:

1. Radioactive contamination of the clothes with beta emitters
Quote
Was there any contamination of the objects you are researching?
Answer: As stated in the conclusion, there is a contamination of radioactive substances (substance) by the beta emitters of individual, selectable areas of clothing, sent samples.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743

2. Strontium 90 is a common beta emiter
Quote
"Strontium-90 is a commonly used beta emitter used in industrial sources. [...]It is also used as a thermal power source in radioisotope thermoelectric generator power packs"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_beta_emitters

3. Strontium 90 has been used in the Soviet Union for radioisotope devices

Quote
Strontium-90 has been used by the Soviet Union in terrestrial RTGs. 90Sr decays by β emission, with minor γ emission. While its half life of 28.8 years is much shorter than that of 238Pu, it also has a lower decay energy with a power density of 0.46 watts per gram.[16] Because the energy output is lower it reaches lower temperatures than 238Pu, which results in lower RTG efficiency. 90Sr is a high yield waste product of nuclear fission and is available in large quantities at a low price.[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

Radioisotope heater units (RHU) are small devices that provide heat through radioactive decay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_heater_unit

Abandoned Soviet Nuclear Batteries Found and Recovered in Georgia"
Two encased but unshielded sources of strontium-90, found near Georgia's northern border with the breakaway republic of Abkhazia late last year were safely recovered and transported to a temporary storage facility on Sunday.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/8560/soviet-era-nuclear-batteries-found-in-georgia-(feb.-6).html



4. Nuclear physics student...
Quote
ALEKSANDER SERGEEVICH KOLEVATOV
Born on Nov. 16, 1934, in Sverdlovsk. A student of nuclear physics, he was a 4th year student as a Physics Major at the UPI University.
https://dyatlovpass.com/aleksander-kolevatov

6. ...has a mysterious device (which was not found inside the tent?)
Quote
28.2.58 [...]
"Sasha Kolevatov tested his device, then quit."
https://dyatlovpass.com/28-january-1959


Now, the theory:

Kolevatov is a nuclear physics student(4). He is involved in developing Radioisotope heater units (or maybe Radioisotope battery) based on Strontium 90, an isotope used in the Soviet Union(3). He brings with him this experimental device (6).
During the group last night, they didn't assembled the stove(not enough firewood, strong wind etc). Instead, they tried to use Kolevatov's device. Something goes terribly wrong with this device, (maybe small explosion) gasses, steam etc are emitted. They got scared, they cut the tent for the gasses (and for them) to come out as quickly as possible (or the tent was ripped by the blast). They know that the emissions are radioactive and everything inside the tent is contaminated, so they could not use anything that was exposed to radiation (clothes, shoes etc). They decide to go as far as they can from the contaminated area. What happens next is their fight for survival ... running barefoot, climbing in the trees for firewood, falling, making fire etc Maybe they were also suffering from radiation sickness, making the fight for survival harder.

What happened with the device?  Probably the secret services, army etc took it and cleaned the site before sending be the search teams, as I could not find any information in the case files about it. As the site remained radioactive, they closed the public access in the area for the next years (I remember I've read somewhere on this forum that they've closed the area for the next years) .

If any such device was found and it was considered to have been the cause of all the Dyatlov Groups demise then why would the Authorities want to cover it up. It would have been much better for them to simply say that a piece of equipment had malfunctioned. Its highly unlikely that any such Instrument was used by the Group. And what about those very unusual injuries to some of the Group  !  ? 
DB

March 02, 2019, 04:55:42 PM
Reply #5
Offline

Ryan


A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/

On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!

But there are a few issues with this:

An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.

The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.

Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.

The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.

March 02, 2019, 06:14:21 PM
Reply #6
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/

On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!

But there are a few issues with this:

An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.

The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.

Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.

The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.

It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that.  But once again its the kind of analysis we need.  And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.
DB

March 03, 2019, 01:35:02 AM
Reply #7
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It's a shame we don't actually know what Kolevatov's device was.

Were the safety protocols for such RTGs well developed in 1959?

March 03, 2019, 01:45:28 AM
Reply #8
Offline

GeneralFailure


But why would they make it so complicated? Why did not they just put them in closed coffins. And they found them in May because they were deep in the snow and in March the probe did not get to them.
And rely on the fact that the radioactivity will be washed out with the water is naive and unreliable method.
Well, such a device in my opinion would be a state secret. Obviously the authorities didn't want such a information to become public. And washing the radioactive particle with water was *the only* available on the site. If you will read the radiation reports you will see that a washing test was actually made :

Quote
"Experimental washing of the clothes showed that the pollution is reduced, the percentage of decreasing varies from 30% to 60% (clothes were washed in running cold water for 3 hours)."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743

If the percentage of decreasing is at average 45% in three hours, imagine what was the radiation level at the time of incident...

If any such device was found and it was considered to have been the cause of all the Dyatlov Groups demise then why would the Authorities want to cover it up. It would have been much better for them to simply say that a piece of equipment had malfunctioned. Its highly unlikely that any such Instrument was used by the Group. And what about those very unusual injuries to some of the Group  !  ?

As I said, my opinion is that the device was a state secret and could not be exposed to the public. The unusual injuries... in my opinion the biggest mistery of the entire story (and the key to reveal the mistery) is the radiation at the site, not some broken ribs. You can go into forest, climb a tree and you can fall and break your neck, but NEVER your clothes will became radioactive.
And what to explain to public? That they carried an experimental device that contaminated with radiations the tent... In fact they said something like this i. " overwhelming force, which the tourists were not able to overcome". Is this "overwhelming force" the force of the atom?

A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/

On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!

But there are a few issues with this:

An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.

The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.

Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.

The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.

Thank you for all the information and for explaining how dangerous is such a device.As I said before, I think that the radiation is the key to solving the mistery. One theory is that the device was small, portable. In the case that it was taken from the university with or without permission, and the development of this device is state secret, is is obviously that nobody would want this information became public... See the tiny size of this heater unit:




It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that.  But once again its the kind of analysis we need.  And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.

If we agree that the crime scene was altered by a team sent for "cleaning" the site, then obviously we try to solve an "fabricated" mystery that cannot be explained by any common sense theory.
How do we know that the crime scene was altered? well, the radioactivity didn't come just from thin air, from the wind, cold, darkness. It has to have a source. And obviously this source was not found by the search teams, meaning that it was removed => crime scene was altered.

March 04, 2019, 12:23:14 PM
Reply #9
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
But why would they make it so complicated? Why did not they just put them in closed coffins. And they found them in May because they were deep in the snow and in March the probe did not get to them.
And rely on the fact that the radioactivity will be washed out with the water is naive and unreliable method.
Well, such a device in my opinion would be a state secret. Obviously the authorities didn't want such a information to become public. And washing the radioactive particle with water was *the only* available on the site. If you will read the radiation reports you will see that a washing test was actually made :

Quote
"Experimental washing of the clothes showed that the pollution is reduced, the percentage of decreasing varies from 30% to 60% (clothes were washed in running cold water for 3 hours)."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743

If the percentage of decreasing is at average 45% in three hours, imagine what was the radiation level at the time of incident...

If any such device was found and it was considered to have been the cause of all the Dyatlov Groups demise then why would the Authorities want to cover it up. It would have been much better for them to simply say that a piece of equipment had malfunctioned. Its highly unlikely that any such Instrument was used by the Group. And what about those very unusual injuries to some of the Group  !  ?

As I said, my opinion is that the device was a state secret and could not be exposed to the public. The unusual injuries... in my opinion the biggest mistery of the entire story (and the key to reveal the mistery) is the radiation at the site, not some broken ribs. You can go into forest, climb a tree and you can fall and break your neck, but NEVER your clothes will became radioactive.
And what to explain to public? That they carried an experimental device that contaminated with radiations the tent... In fact they said something like this i. " overwhelming force, which the tourists were not able to overcome". Is this "overwhelming force" the force of the atom?

A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/

On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!

But there are a few issues with this:

An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.

The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.

Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.

The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.

Thank you for all the information and for explaining how dangerous is such a device.As I said before, I think that the radiation is the key to solving the mistery. One theory is that the device was small, portable. In the case that it was taken from the university with or without permission, and the development of this device is state secret, is is obviously that nobody would want this information became public... See the tiny size of this heater unit:




It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that.  But once again its the kind of analysis we need.  And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.

If we agree that the crime scene was altered by a team sent for "cleaning" the site, then obviously we try to solve an "fabricated" mystery that cannot be explained by any common sense theory.
How do we know that the crime scene was altered? well, the radioactivity didn't come just from thin air, from the wind, cold, darkness. It has to have a source. And obviously this source was not found by the search teams, meaning that it was removed => crime scene was altered.

But is it really feasible that a group of Students were let loose with such a Device  !  ?  Let loose with a STATE SECRET  !  ? 
Some people have said that they think the Stream at the Ravine was contaminated with Radiation Particles.
Maybe there was no Radiation at the Tent Site  !  ?
There is NO EVIDENCE or anything of such nature to suggest that a Team of CLEANERS went to the area, certainly not during the initial Search Parties efforts.
DB

March 07, 2019, 08:05:23 PM
Reply #10
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Interestingly enough, in the old message page of dyatlovpass.com I suggested the possibly that Dyatlovs heater may have been a radio isotope heater.    dunno1

There are some diary entries that basically state arguments broke out regarding who had to sleep next to the stove as if nobody trusted it. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:10:42 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 22, 2019, 07:52:46 AM
Reply #11
Offline

JimIslander


The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

May 22, 2019, 08:05:15 PM
Reply #12
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

I don't think a flyover would be necessary....  we found out about Trinoble like a week later when radioactive dust on the shoes of powerplant workers all over the planet started setting off the detectors when going to work. 

But to your point....  This is why I laugh at the main theory in Russia that basically states members of the DP group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis, and said spies murdered the very people that were so kind to deliver it none the less in the most inhospitable weather conditions imaginable.   nea1 Pure rubbish as we have several ways to detect, and analyze their radiation, and catching it out of the atmosphere is one of them.

To many in Russia still to this day, the Americans are a good boogie-man scapegoat.  We have the same individuals in the US ironically that blame the Russians when things don't go their way.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 08:44:52 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 24, 2019, 12:19:43 PM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

I don't think a flyover would be necessary....  we found out about Trinoble like a week later when radioactive dust on the shoes of powerplant workers all over the planet started setting off the detectors when going to work. 

But to your point....  This is why I laugh at the main theory in Russia that basically states members of the DP group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis, and said spies murdered the very people that were so kind to deliver it none the less in the most inhospitable weather conditions imaginable.   nea1 Pure rubbish as we have several ways to detect, and analyze their radiation, and catching it out of the atmosphere is one of them.

To many in Russia still to this day, the Americans are a good boogie-man scapegoat.  We have the same individuals in the US ironically that blame the Russians when things don't go their way.

Absolutely. Its a shame that despite the demise of the USSR we still have people today, and many of them in positions of power, who want to pit Russia against the USA. A term often used is RUSSOPHOBIA and clearly it matters not whether there is Communism or Capitalism.
DB

May 24, 2019, 01:00:18 PM
Reply #14
Offline

Nigel Evans


The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

I don't think a flyover would be necessary....  we found out about Trinoble like a week later when radioactive dust on the shoes of powerplant workers all over the planet started setting off the detectors when going to work. 

But to your point....  This is why I laugh at the main theory in Russia that basically states members of the DP group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis, and said spies murdered the very people that were so kind to deliver it none the less in the most inhospitable weather conditions imaginable.   nea1 Pure rubbish as we have several ways to detect, and analyze their radiation, and catching it out of the atmosphere is one of them.

To many in Russia still to this day, the Americans are a good boogie-man scapegoat.  We have the same individuals in the US ironically that blame the Russians when things don't go their way.

Absolutely. Its a shame that despite the demise of the USSR we still have people today, and many of them in positions of power, who want to pit Russia against the USA. A term often used is RUSSOPHOBIA and clearly it matters not whether there is Communism or Capitalism.

The KGB are back in power and old habits die hard.

May 25, 2019, 01:13:56 PM
Reply #15
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

I don't think a flyover would be necessary....  we found out about Trinoble like a week later when radioactive dust on the shoes of powerplant workers all over the planet started setting off the detectors when going to work. 

But to your point....  This is why I laugh at the main theory in Russia that basically states members of the DP group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis, and said spies murdered the very people that were so kind to deliver it none the less in the most inhospitable weather conditions imaginable.   nea1 Pure rubbish as we have several ways to detect, and analyze their radiation, and catching it out of the atmosphere is one of them.

To many in Russia still to this day, the Americans are a good boogie-man scapegoat.  We have the same individuals in the US ironically that blame the Russians when things don't go their way.

Absolutely. Its a shame that despite the demise of the USSR we still have people today, and many of them in positions of power, who want to pit Russia against the USA. A term often used is RUSSOPHOBIA and clearly it matters not whether there is Communism or Capitalism.

The KGB are back in power and old habits die hard.

The KGB ended with the demise of the USSR. In its place we have the FSB and the SVR. One dealing with internal matters and the other with external matters. Most States have some kind of Security Organisation. And any organisation is only as good as the people in it. And mistakes happen. ETC ETC. The bigger the State the more complicated the organisation can become.
DB

May 26, 2019, 10:51:47 PM
Reply #16
Offline

Monika


The device was most likely a Short Wave receiver using a preset frequency. Krivonishenko has a "Copper coil" in one of his pockets found by the searchers. As a Radio Ham i use copper wire antennas. If the US wanted to detect radiation in the area they would have had a U-2 equipped with radiation detector do a fly over.

I don't think a flyover would be necessary....  we found out about Trinoble like a week later when radioactive dust on the shoes of powerplant workers all over the planet started setting off the detectors when going to work. 

But to your point....  This is why I laugh at the main theory in Russia that basically states members of the DP group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis, and said spies murdered the very people that were so kind to deliver it none the less in the most inhospitable weather conditions imaginable.   nea1 Pure rubbish as we have several ways to detect, and analyze their radiation, and catching it out of the atmosphere is one of them.

To many in Russia still to this day, the Americans are a good boogie-man scapegoat.  We have the same individuals in the US ironically that blame the Russians when things don't go their way.


Where did you get the information that the theory about “group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis” is the main theory in Russia for explaining Dyatlov mystery?

With such a theory, Rakitin came and wrote a fictional story and it is questionable whether he believed this theory himself. I read more reviews on his book (in Russian) and translated it through a Google translator and found that almost none of reviewers believed it!

The agent theory about radioactive material and spies is so stupid that it doesn't deserve any comment.  neg1
And I think most people in Russia and around the world take this theory with joke! Russian citizens are not stupid or paranoid. Maybe in the USA only, the mainstream media and government agencies are expanding their negative reputation as they do in Russia about Americans.

May 27, 2019, 11:12:00 AM
Reply #17
Offline

WAB



Where did you get the information that the theory about “group were on a secret mission to deliver radioactive material to American spies for analysis” is the main theory in Russia for explaining Dyatlov mystery?




With such a theory, Rakitin came and wrote a fictional story and it is questionable whether he believed this theory himself. I read more reviews on his book (in Russian) and translated it through a Google translator and found that almost none of reviewers believed it!

I can support this opinion as was well informed, practically since when it reflected and written.
Rakitin (its present a surname - Riabuhin) has started collect the information on theme of Dyatlov group incident in 2010 at forum https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/  (earlier it was called https://pereval1959.forum24.ru/ ) as nickname “ Желтый волк - Yellow wolf”.
For example here: https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/?x=read&razdel=35&tema=64#main_64  it is in Russian.
He there was not one, and together with Evgenie Novitsky (it as I believe, his co-author) under nickname «Vitamin» and his one more friend more.
The basic information it took from this forum, and subsequently from several others. Therefore there is no its any special role in research of Dyatlov incident. Further it simply has altered it, adding invented essence under the commercial project, and on it all has ended.
There is nothing surprising that public likes read about invented adventures and «spy novels» more. Actually practically everything that he writes, grows out of inventions and anything similar was not in the nature. In particular I can specify absolutely precisely in weight of the false facts which do not prove be true in any way, and many and are frankly denied by the validity.
1.Absolutely far-fetched navigation of flight “the plane landing parachutists”. Judging by performance characteristics RB-47 plane, it could not reach even borders of the USSR in the south, without speaking what to return on real point of refuelling. One of my military specialities it is the navigator of the scout plane (radioprospecting and counteraction). Therefore it is very easy count and present it.
2.Never RB-47 had updatings for landing parachutists. For this purpose it is necessary alter design that has not been made thoroughly. In 1960 when the similar plane has been brought down over territory of the USSR, operators of radio equipment could not get out from plane because so its design has been calculated. Was considered that it is impregnable and there is no necessity rescue these operators.
3.The Plane "should be" fly directly through air defence zones (which to it did not react in any way, probably because it was not resolved by their religion  grin1 ) three of which should get on flight route. It is not necessary speak, what even at that time the most part of air borders of the USSR was looked through radar station. The case with U-2 is other case. That plane flied at heights where there was no aircraft which could get it. However RB-47 could not fly at such heights. Its altitude was more low, than any fighter of air defence of the USSR for that time.
4.The way and movement tactics on the earth (on N.Ural's snow is not described Absolutely not!) when even problem to collect group after a landing in those conditions, represented a serious problem. Even in the afternoon when nobody disturbs. Including here weather, which there (if to tell very softly!) the unpredictable. If Rakitin (Riabuhin) itself would try move there even in the perfect conditions he would not began write such nonsense. Truth it does not describe it, and simply holds back it. It is such version of lie.
5.In different special services there is no such term (and concepts) as "controlled delivery". It is the term from criminal police use.
6.The Principle of any division of investigation - receive maximum information, and silently and imperceptibly escape to itself, delivering this information to staff itself. How operated (on Rakitin!) these "parachutists", it is example of full nonprofessionalism. After such operation them would dismiss without pension and more anybody them for work would not take. If such "professional" leaves after itself so much proofs and displays all bodies, as at theatre it simply is not suitable for trade.
7.   "Returning" this group back with the help «skyhook», is a separate theme for me. That Rakitin has described, children of younger age who do not know anything about this adaptation, except the name can read it only. I was engaged in working out of similar device and well I know its characteristics and possibility.
A) Historically there (at Rakitin) all is described, how lies. For the first time after tests (probably that “ferst” Rakitin does not know English word on sense) it applied in 1962, at operation on research of the Soviet polar drifting station in Arctic regions, in zone of the international sea. Here in this article all is described: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol38no5/html/v38i5a11p.htm 
B) In article complexities with weather when it was possible make it are well described. On N.Ural of such weather never happens, in places where application of this device is possible. There the minimum wind is  15 m/s (30 kt) and more practically always.
C) Some features of application can be seen in this article: http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/cia-flying-skyhook-wasnt-just-james-bond-it-actually-rescued-agents .
There it is well visible that during this period such system was applied, as twin (on 2 persons) because it allowed lower vertical overload at the expense of increase in weight of cargo.
D) Rakitin everywhere have substitution of one plane to another, in particular RB-47 and C-47. But others are mentioned also, for example, B-17 and P2V. However not be told anywhere about how they in general could get to N.Ural if at them the action radius was for this purpose obviously insufficient, and their equipment was unique and inaccessible for this purpose in 1959 and later. The question on how they in general could fly freely over territory of the USSR does not rise at all.
8.In his book it is lot of ideas which are frank perversion of role and destinies of some Dyatlov group participants. For example, Simeon Zolotaryov and Alexander Kolevatov. There is not present (and cannot be, because it was not in the nature) on their participation in something. It is all becomes semihints and overthrow information that does not prove be true in any way, neither relatives of these people, nor with what or documents.
9.There were basic questions which should arise in the beginning (but are not written in any way and on them there are no answers):
A)What for all it "circus show" in such solitude (what it is possible give all more close, easier and more reliably) if same can be spent easily near to city, for example on whose that to summer residence, or in general in the Kungursky cave at excursion? There at all there were no restrictions for visiting by foreign tourists, as it is to Sverdlovsk.
B)What it is possible receive from the rests of these clothes even if all is taken not known from what place it?
As is confidential (and important problem for understanding) it is : technology of manufacturing, capacity of manufacture, quantity of the turned out and prepared material. The structure (on geted clothes there were many different impurity which were not necessary, or were false) was known for long time already.
In one word, I can tell about it the same, as have told still in 2010: it is example of antiscientific fantasy and the commercial project which does not contain any solution of this incident.
If it is pleasant to other public, its readers and fans, it yet does not mean that it is truth, at least even partly.
All who knows this book share on 2 categories:
1.Those who is fans, and them more interests nothing, except fascinating reading “about spies”.
2.Those who though what that well understands and sees obvious discrepancy of the validity. They write negative reviews. It is lot of them, but Rakitin (Riabuhin) and has not answered their one direct question in essence. He only is rude in the answer if the question is not pleasant to he. Or, as for example, for the newspaper “Komsomolskia Pravda” demands impossible quantity of money for interview, , what it not give. Because publicly and openly he will be caught in lie.
Therefore so it is lot of people who do not trust (deny) its theory if they are well familiar with details of this event.

The agent theory about radioactive material and spies is so stupid that it doesn't deserve any comment.  neg1
And I think most people in Russia and around the world take this theory with joke! Russian citizens are not stupid or paranoid. Maybe in the USA only, the mainstream media and government agencies are expanding their negative reputation as they do in Russia about Americans.

Exactly! Reaction to this theory, not as on joke, and as on stupid forcing spy-mania.
Interesting that fact, when I have told to Donnie Eicher about this theory he has taken offence. How much I have understood, for the his country. Also he has correctly made. Any statement and furthermore accusation, should have truthfulness in the basis. I too can will take offence for the country, because when about it tell silly fables its citizens it reminds me Judas Iskariot from it 30 silversmiths. Matter is not in volume what special service of whom has changed (it always goes with variable success - look at history), and what not to force spy-mania there where it at all it was not planned.

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And now it is necessary tell about theme of this section: Kolevatov device.
At first I should notice that Kolevatov was not the radio technician. Therefore no coils condensers and resistors were necessary for he. He studied on branch of nuclear physics. Radio engineerings were Woodpeckers, Kolmogorov and Doroshenko.
It is possible dream long on theme of "nuclear high-speed sledge», but all is much easier: Alexander Kolevatov tried make usual sledge of spare skis and available subjects. On them it is easier transport cargo, for example, backpacks. This craze of that period at all ski travellers. As experience of use of such devices yet was not, all moved ahead "trial and error method". Their big part was unsuccessful, therefore and has not been told in diaries of anything, besides joke seriously concerning the next failure.
On another there also could not be, because conditions of application this adaptation have not been considered. Always on deep snow sledge loses in efficiency of transportation. Because resistance movement happens very high. Therefore many forces should be spent for nothing. It turns out that easier (less expense of forces) carry cargo on back (in backpack).
The design of sledge has been simultaneously badly chosen and made. Absence of experience and preliminary careful designing of these sledge has yielded negative result.
If the design was more successful this sledge could very well it is useful at movement by the top part of ridge where there are no woods and snow is more dense.
A bit later so it has been made by some skilled groups of travellers on skis when they travelled on areas without wood. It, for example, Polar Ural Mountains and many areas of the Russian (or other) North. All these travellers in advance carefully developed designs and made the sledge at professional level. Then all did it on the basis of skis, and then (in 70th and 80th years) began apply entirely cast (or stamped) from plastic. However it was favourable apply them only in areas where there are no many woods.
As Kolevatov was at the very beginning period of application such sledge he has failed. It not its error, and absence of experience such use and absence of understanding as it is necessary do. In due course all would turn out, when there would be experience. But the misfortune with group has not given possibility to Alexander Kolevatovu continue these employment.