August 24, 2019, 01:38:53 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Resistance goup maybe?  (Read 1642 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

March 15, 2019, 03:37:23 AM
Read 1642 times
Offline

GeneralFailure


In my country, after the communists came, many people/former WW2 soldiers went in the mountains forming anti-communist resistance groups(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement).
One event has come to my mind recently related to one resistance group, and the events are somehow similar:

Quote
The death of the undercover tourists
September 2, 1950. Toma Arnăuţoiu, Petre Arnăuţoiu, Constantin Jubleanu and Ion Marinescu meet with tourists Aurel Bârsan, Băş Ghervase, Neniu Dumitru, Venter Teodor and Maria Tiron on Gălăşescu Mountain. Educate to be circumspect with any unknown, the four interogate the to the strangers until they revealed them. Tourists were undercover Security Agents. Aurel Barsan is the only one left alive.
https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti

Quote
On September 2, 1950, the terrorists Arnauţoiu Toma, Arnăuţoiu Petre, Marinescu Ion and Jubleanu Constantin attacked with arms a group of people on the tourist route Sîmbăta-Moldoveanu, at the point named Piscul Călăşescului, bestially murdering four people and namely: security platoon Băiş Ghervase, Neniu Petre, worker, PCR member, engineer Venţer Teodor and student Tiron Maria. After they murdered them, the terrorists robbed them of the objects they had on them, stripped them and then run, hiding at one of the hut they had in the mountains. Student Tiron Maria, being only injured, was eventually shot dead with bullets in her heart and her head. "
Secret Service Report - https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html


I'm not familiar with the resistance groups in Russia in the '50's, but what if Dyatlov Group met, let's say, a group of people that was "not happy" about it's location made public/reported to the authorities and this group acted more intelligent than the Romanian resistance group from the example above, leaving no traces.

The people forming this group was trained to live in the mountains and to leave no traces in order not to be found by the authorities, that's why we have no footprints other than the tourist's footprints. Well, maybe they have missed one footprint :

They find the hikers, they cut the tent and order them to come out and to go in the cedar area (this zone was protected from the wind, so it was easier to interogate te students there). Tent cut from inside? Maybe not. A I read, the first search team made itself some cuts in the tent and I didn't find in the report anything about this... so maybe the report is wrong. Or maybe the hikers have made also some cuts in order co come out quicker.

Three hikers didn't made it until the cedar, they try to fight the members of the resistance group, they are beaten and left in the snow where they die.
The rest of the hikers are "interrogated" under the cedar : tho of them are stripped by their clothes in order for the others to say if they are secret service agents. The two stripped hikers die.
After this they applied another torture : submerging the bodies in freezing water/cutting tongue / beating. After all the hikers show no signs of life, they cover their own traces leave.

Radiations? Well, the bomb or whatever it was exploded in the area on 17 February. So the contamination could have been made after the death of the hikers.




March 15, 2019, 06:29:03 AM
Reply #1
Offline

Puchiko


All the murder theories have the same flaws:
- No footprints. You say they were "trained to leave no trace", but that doesn't give you the ability to fly. We're talking about enough people to take down 9 young and fit athletes - it would take a small army and it seems unlikely they'd leave no trace. I'll admit the footprints are poorly documented though, so let's dig deeper.
- Zolotaryov had a notebook in his hand a camera around his neck. Why would the attackers let him have a camera with potentially incriminating evidence?
- The injuries of the Ravine 4 are massive internal trauma with no damage to soft tissue. Autopsy reports confirm this couldn't have been caused by another human.
- The group was obviously alive for a while after leaving the tent. They built a fire and presumably dug out the den. It appears that they did not die all at once and that the longest surviving took the clothing of the Yuris, who died first. Why would the attackers let them do that?
- The attackers would surely have a use for the food and equipment belonging to the group, but it was left untouched in the tent. Why?

March 15, 2019, 07:41:52 AM
Reply #2
Offline

GeneralFailure


I will try to find some exlanation for the flaws:

1. Footprints -  I've made some research, it seems that, at least in Romania, the anticommunist resistance groups had techniques to minimize/erase the footprints in the snow:
Quote
"Traveling in the snow it was done with the "hârzoabe", some braided twigs of circular shape, to not sink in the snow, and the erasure of the footprints was mandatory"
http://www.gazetademaramures.ro/images/supplement/eroii-rezistentei-anticomuniste-31.pdf
Also see the boot footprint from the above photo. How many people with guns you need to control 9 hikers?

2.Camera. If the attackers wanted to remain invisible, they obviously wanted to leave all the personal belongings of the hikers intact. Well, the film inside camera showed only black images, what this tells us? A negative becomes totally black only when exposed to light. So maybe they pulled out the film from the camera, exposed it to light, then inserted it back in the camera. Pen and notepad? It was written something on the notepad? It could be put on the hands of  Zolotaryov after he died. Why? To make the scene more realistic probably.

3.Injuries - If one man jumps on the chest of somebody, it crushes his ribs? I don't know. For sure this does not leave marks on the skin.

4. The group was alive (well almost, three were left unconscious on the way to the cedar). Probably the attackers tortured the hikers to admit that they work for the secret services, see the Romanian event from the first post. Some of the hikers had some links to the secret services, don't they? The fire wasn't made by the hikers, otherwise they would be alive. Also the "den" wasn't built for the hikers also. The branches on the snow wasn't for them also, the hikers were inside the river. So the attackers made this "blanket" of  branches for them not to freeze. The hikers were tortured inside the water. Dubinina's position looks like someone kept her with the head submerged under water... probably kicked her in her back until the ribs were broken. Tongue was cut before? The blood in her stomach shows that she was still alive when the tongue was cut, her heart was beating...

5. Nobody who wants to keep it's location secret would'n t want to leave traces of his existence. This is why they didn't take anything
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 08:55:57 AM by GeneralFailure »

March 15, 2019, 09:21:48 AM
Reply #3

Clacon

Guest
Hi there,

Not entirely sure of ALL of the details of the event, and perhaps the following statements I make need clarification, but I got the impression the Hikers themselves were Communist supporters?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That doesn't rule out that they weren't out there or dispensed of, for political reasons (good point you made!) although I keep going back to something in one of the girls' diaries regarding "geology" and rocks around the are? Don't know what that was about unless one of them was studying in that area.

I'm beginning to believe that "traversing and conquering the difficult terrain to obtain certifications" was a maybe a cover for being up there. I don't know....something about Igor's vagueness and change of course makes me suspicious. But I'm a conspiracy theorist so I find everything suspicious.

I am at a loss as to how Zolotaryov's camera remained structurally intact after his ribs were broken in the area it would hang off his neck. Unless of course, there was structural damage to it and we just can't see from the photos. The evidence logging is notoriously lacking. I don't really trust anything recorded unfortunately, not even the autopsy reports.

If it was truly intact, then I would say Zolotaryov experienced that crushing force from behind OR the camera was planted. Which means theres a coverup. I don't know the cover up artists murdered the hikers. I feel like I'm going one way with a theory and then I change direction.

**** Actually just went back to look at the picture and it maybe looks like it was around his wrist which is lying right about neck area - the camera looks fairly intact but is sitting very   
        high on his neck and the angle its lying at looks like the strap is on his wrist, not around his neck - could be a clue??? What does everyone else see???

I also don't believe the 3 on the way to the cedar died on the way there. I think they were all originally at the cedar. One thing I believe for sure is that the 2 Yuri's died first and their clothing was taken by other members of the group - I don't believe they were strip searched bc then they all would have been secverely underdressed AND their clothes were found on the others - burn marks and all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would feel a need to cover that up?? (the removal of clothing I mean) - its way too tedious - undressing one corpse to put their clothing on another. What for??

Some things about those three I find interesting:

Their bodies to me show the most compelling evidence of a fight (knuckles bruised, Igors bloody lip etc) - now I don't know if it was between the Hikers or they were fighting their outside attackers. Someone on the forum wisely said that the majority of those murdered know their attackers and I don't know if things were particularly kosher between all members of the group, just based on diary entries. Do I think they murdered each other...God I just can't say. Something in my gut just tells me there was a fight between them.

My next point about that group is that Igor and Zina were found so close together. He had a picture of her on him. I don't know if this is significant, other than the fact that maybe there was something between them or at least maybe that Igor was close to her to protect her OR was going after her if they had had a fight.

Any thoughts??

March 15, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
Reply #4
Online

NkZ


Interesting. Hard to link to radioactivity.... but:
+ we have a gulag nearby with potential escapes: still over 10 000 prisoners in 1959 (http://www.gulag.online/articles/mapa-taborovych-sprav-gulagu-a-pribehu-ze-stredni-evropy?locale=en)
+ In the case files it is said that uncle slava (ex convict) resigned from his work (Ryazhnev testimony, settlement 41 on march 6): he could have been a contact between fugitives and the outside world (they hunt or dig gold and he sells it, and buys them commodities?) ? (strangely though, uncle slava testifies on the 7th in Idvel and still has the same occupation as at the moment of facts. What is he doing in Idvel? running away?)
+ Also a mention that money was found in the snow near the cedar (Atmanaki , sheet 216) why would a hiker keep 8 rubles in a pocket, and throw it away before dying? Except if you beg your murderer to accept money for life?
+ in a online  article ( https://www.miamighostchronicles.com/stranger-than-fiction/another-disappearnce-at-dyatlov-pass )on a hiker dying from heart attack returning from the pass a few years ago, it is mentioned the recent discovery of a dead « ermit » near the pass, probably too young to be involved though. Just shows appart from Mansi a few people are at loose in these parts. Runaways becoming ermits?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 08:16:30 AM by NkZ »

March 15, 2019, 12:47:35 PM
Reply #5
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
In my country, after the communists came, many people/former WW2 soldiers went in the mountains forming anti-communist resistance groups(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement).
One event has come to my mind recently related to one resistance group, and the events are somehow similar:

Quote
The death of the undercover tourists
September 2, 1950. Toma Arnăuţoiu, Petre Arnăuţoiu, Constantin Jubleanu and Ion Marinescu meet with tourists Aurel Bârsan, Băş Ghervase, Neniu Dumitru, Venter Teodor and Maria Tiron on Gălăşescu Mountain. Educate to be circumspect with any unknown, the four interogate the to the strangers until they revealed them. Tourists were undercover Security Agents. Aurel Barsan is the only one left alive.
https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/tragica-epopee-a-lui-toma-arnautoiu-eroul-din-munti

Quote
On September 2, 1950, the terrorists Arnauţoiu Toma, Arnăuţoiu Petre, Marinescu Ion and Jubleanu Constantin attacked with arms a group of people on the tourist route Sîmbăta-Moldoveanu, at the point named Piscul Călăşescului, bestially murdering four people and namely: security platoon Băiş Ghervase, Neniu Petre, worker, PCR member, engineer Venţer Teodor and student Tiron Maria. After they murdered them, the terrorists robbed them of the objects they had on them, stripped them and then run, hiding at one of the hut they had in the mountains. Student Tiron Maria, being only injured, was eventually shot dead with bullets in her heart and her head. "
Secret Service Report - https://adevarul.ro/locale/constanta/militienii-eroi-aventurile-romantate-reusit-gruparea-arsenescu-arnautoiu-ucida-mai-securisti-traseu-turistic-1_5b488b76df52022f752cf567/index.html


I'm not familiar with the resistance groups in Russia in the '50's, but what if Dyatlov Group met, let's say, a group of people that was "not happy" about it's location made public/reported to the authorities and this group acted more intelligent than the Romanian resistance group from the example above, leaving no traces.

The people forming this group was trained to live in the mountains and to leave no traces in order not to be found by the authorities, that's why we have no footprints other than the tourist's footprints. Well, maybe they have missed one footprint :

They find the hikers, they cut the tent and order them to come out and to go in the cedar area (this zone was protected from the wind, so it was easier to interogate te students there). Tent cut from inside? Maybe not. A I read, the first search team made itself some cuts in the tent and I didn't find in the report anything about this... so maybe the report is wrong. Or maybe the hikers have made also some cuts in order co come out quicker.

Three hikers didn't made it until the cedar, they try to fight the members of the resistance group, they are beaten and left in the snow where they die.
The rest of the hikers are "interrogated" under the cedar : tho of them are stripped by their clothes in order for the others to say if they are secret service agents. The two stripped hikers die.
After this they applied another torture : submerging the bodies in freezing water/cutting tongue / beating. After all the hikers show no signs of life, they cover their own traces leave.

Radiations? Well, the bomb or whatever it was exploded in the area on 17 February. So the contamination could have been made after the death of the hikers.

What Country are you from  ?   I think as many others would say this particular Theory is another variation on the theme of Murder. And the Dyatlov Group appear to be good Communists, etc. The area that they traveled through has no records of anti communist activity.
DB

March 15, 2019, 12:52:04 PM
Reply #6
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I will try to find some exlanation for the flaws:

1. Footprints -  I've made some research, it seems that, at least in Romania, the anticommunist resistance groups had techniques to minimize/erase the footprints in the snow:
Quote
"Traveling in the snow it was done with the "hârzoabe", some braided twigs of circular shape, to not sink in the snow, and the erasure of the footprints was mandatory"
http://www.gazetademaramures.ro/images/supplement/eroii-rezistentei-anticomuniste-31.pdf
Also see the boot footprint from the above photo. How many people with guns you need to control 9 hikers?

2.Camera. If the attackers wanted to remain invisible, they obviously wanted to leave all the personal belongings of the hikers intact. Well, the film inside camera showed only black images, what this tells us? A negative becomes totally black only when exposed to light. So maybe they pulled out the film from the camera, exposed it to light, then inserted it back in the camera. Pen and notepad? It was written something on the notepad? It could be put on the hands of  Zolotaryov after he died. Why? To make the scene more realistic probably.

3.Injuries - If one man jumps on the chest of somebody, it crushes his ribs? I don't know. For sure this does not leave marks on the skin.

4. The group was alive (well almost, three were left unconscious on the way to the cedar). Probably the attackers tortured the hikers to admit that they work for the secret services, see the Romanian event from the first post. Some of the hikers had some links to the secret services, don't they? The fire wasn't made by the hikers, otherwise they would be alive. Also the "den" wasn't built for the hikers also. The branches on the snow wasn't for them also, the hikers were inside the river. So the attackers made this "blanket" of  branches for them not to freeze. The hikers were tortured inside the water. Dubinina's position looks like someone kept her with the head submerged under water... probably kicked her in her back until the ribs were broken. Tongue was cut before? The blood in her stomach shows that she was still alive when the tongue was cut, her heart was beating...

5. Nobody who wants to keep it's location secret would'n t want to leave traces of his existence. This is why they didn't take anything


But why would any body contemplating Murder wait until the Dyatlov Group were in such an exposed location where erasing evidence would be more difficult,etc. Plenty of remote more likely places to commit Murder while on the way to the Mountain that the Dyatlov Group were heading for.
DB

March 15, 2019, 12:57:31 PM
Reply #7
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi there,

Not entirely sure of ALL of the details of the event, and perhaps the following statements I make need clarification, but I got the impression the Hikers themselves were Communist supporters?? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That doesn't rule out that they weren't out there or dispensed of, for political reasons (good point you made!) although I keep going back to something in one of the girls' diaries regarding "geology" and rocks around the are? Don't know what that was about unless one of them was studying in that area.

I'm beginning to believe that "traversing and conquering the difficult terrain to obtain certifications" was a maybe a cover for being up there. I don't know....something about Igor's vagueness and change of course makes me suspicious. But I'm a conspiracy theorist so I find everything suspicious.

I am at a loss as to how Zolotaryov's camera remained structurally intact after his ribs were broken in the area it would hang off his neck. Unless of course, there was structural damage to it and we just can't see from the photos. The evidence logging is notoriously lacking. I don't really trust anything recorded unfortunately, not even the autopsy reports.

If it was truly intact, then I would say Zolotaryov experienced that crushing force from behind OR the camera was planted. Which means theres a coverup. I don't know the cover up artists murdered the hikers. I feel like I'm going one way with a theory and then I change direction.

**** Actually just went back to look at the picture and it maybe looks like it was around his wrist which is lying right about neck area - the camera looks fairly intact but is sitting very   
        high on his neck and the angle its lying at looks like the strap is on his wrist, not around his neck - could be a clue??? What does everyone else see???

I also don't believe the 3 on the way to the cedar died on the way there. I think they were all originally at the cedar. One thing I believe for sure is that the 2 Yuri's died first and their clothing was taken by other members of the group - I don't believe they were strip searched bc then they all would have been secverely underdressed AND their clothes were found on the others - burn marks and all. It just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would feel a need to cover that up?? (the removal of clothing I mean) - its way too tedious - undressing one corpse to put their clothing on another. What for??

Some things about those three I find interesting:

Their bodies to me show the most compelling evidence of a fight (knuckles bruised, Igors bloody lip etc) - now I don't know if it was between the Hikers or they were fighting their outside attackers. Someone on the forum wisely said that the majority of those murdered know their attackers and I don't know if things were particularly kosher between all members of the group, just based on diary entries. Do I think they murdered each other...God I just can't say. Something in my gut just tells me there was a fight between them.

My next point about that group is that Igor and Zina were found so close together. He had a picture of her on him. I don't know if this is significant, other than the fact that maybe there was something between them or at least maybe that Igor was close to her to protect her OR was going after her if they had had a fight.

Any thoughts??

The Dyatlov Group were all good Communists. Part of there task was collecting mineral samples I believe. Some of the injuries could well have been caused in a fight of some kind. They may well have been defending themselves against someone or something.
DB

March 16, 2019, 02:31:45 AM
Reply #8
Offline

GeneralFailure


Perm Gulag camps seem to be close to Dyatlov incident location.

http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36.php

Lots of camps in the area...


As I understand, in gulag camps were imprisoned also criminals etc:
Quote
"Criminal prisoners, camping out in the forests, would organize themselves into bands, steal weapons, and even attack local residents, geological parties, and native villages. [...] Generally, memoirists agree that the overwhelming majority of would-be runaways were professional criminals. https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?


March 16, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
Reply #9
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
His hands were in his pockets which just happened to be where the notepad and pencil were.

The gulags are said to have been disbanded in 1953 shortly after the death of Stalin.  However, it is my understanding that not all gulags were the same.  In other words, there were mentally ill, petty criminals, violent criminals, white collar criminals, political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities.  This is the reason I asked WAB if the logging camp they stopped at happened to be labor camp. While in 1959 the loggers were a "community" that were there working on their own free will, I am uncertain that was always the case. I have also seen the maps posted above regarding gulag locations and wonder how many released 'detainees' of varying degrees stayed in these locations post 1953, or never left the region in general.   

Food for thought. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 16, 2019, 09:05:19 PM
Reply #10
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
My mother inlaw is Russian, and was raised not far from the incident.  When she moved to the US she brought her mother with her. Her mothers entire family (father, mother, brother, and her) had their flower mill confinscated by the state under Stalin and they were split up and sent to different gulags under the excuse they were political enemies of the state to get rid of them. She spent something like 10 years underground in an old mine assembling short range rockets for the army. She told me when times were really tough, they resorted to consuming glycerin used in the propellant of the rockets for substance.  Her brother lost his right hand for steeling a loaf of bread..... her parents were never seen again. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 16, 2019, 11:58:30 PM
Reply #11
Offline

GeneralFailure


Ivdel Gulag had in 1959 15148 prisoners
NYROB gulag - 19618
Usollag  - 17989. "In 1955, a couple of years after Stalin’s death, the remaining political prisoners were transferred from Usollag to other camps, and then Usollag became a camp for regular criminals" https://newslanc.com/celebrating-the-75th-anniversary-of-a-russian-gulag/
So yes, we have in the area active gulags in 1959. Probably most of them camps for criminals

March 17, 2019, 06:04:28 AM
Reply #12
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Very interesting.

Also an aspect in which I suspect Russians are unwilling to discuss regarding this matter. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 17, 2019, 12:42:56 PM
Reply #13
Online

NkZ


In some cases small nations within the cccp (like mansi ....) where bounty hunters of gulag fugitives (French University source). Could the initial insistance of witness interviews on a Mansi lead be explained by that? They suspected a mistake by their regular auxiliary?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:04:10 PM by NkZ »

March 17, 2019, 02:05:30 PM
Reply #14
Offline

GeneralFailure


In one article posted above is written the same thing:

Quote
If ideology and fear did not impel the locals to turn in escaped prisoners, greed did. Fairly or unfairly, many memoirists believe that local tribal peoples—the Eskimos of the far north, the Kazakhs to the south—were constantly on the lookout for runaways. Some became professional bounty-hunters, searching for prisoners in return for a kilogram of tea or a bag of wheat. 11 In Kolyma, a local inhabitant who brought in the right hand of a runaway—or, by some accounts, the runaway’s head—received a 250-ruble prize, and the prizes seem to have been similar elsewhere.12 In one recorded case, a local man recognized an escaped prisoner masquerading as a free man, and reported his presence to the police. He received 250 rubles. His son, who had gone to the police station, received 150 as well. In another case, a man who reported the location of a runaway to a camp chief was given the princely sum of 300 rubles.13
https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php

May be the case of Mansi people...



March 18, 2019, 02:04:44 PM
Reply #15
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The location of the Dyatlov Incident doesnt jump out and say BANDIT COUNTRY. Why ! ? Its just too exposed. People be they Bandits or Natives need the right conditions in which to survive. The Mansi may have hunted up near that area but they lived lower down.
DB

March 18, 2019, 08:35:04 PM
Reply #16
Offline

Vietnamka


GeneralFailure

Quote
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?

We have information about the  ascapes from the camps in 1959. May be Teddy will translate this table, but you can understand the dates.
There was only one escape during winter time - from 19 to 21 of February, from.... Ivdel's camp. Too late.



March 19, 2019, 01:35:00 AM
Reply #17
Offline

GeneralFailure


Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?

March 19, 2019, 01:48:58 AM
Reply #18
Offline

WAB


GeneralFailure

Quote
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?

We have information about the  ascapes from the camps in 1959. May be Teddy will translate this table, but you can understand the dates.
There was only one escape during winter time - from 19 to 21 of February, from.... Ivdel's camp. Too late.

Galina, well what пуд рить людя м моз ги so long and difficult tell about the simple?
Whether is easier give short digest on the merits of the case? For this purpose it is not necessary even translate all sheet. Who wants - can disassemble itself first three lines from it.
Briefly it turns out so:
On February, 19th, 1959 from camp Ivdele ran three prisoners who have caught already on February, 21st practically in the same place.
By this time all terms of travel Dyatlov group have passed for long time already.
From myself I can add: they prisoners, instead of idiots what run towards pass almost 200 km ( ~ 125 mi), whence it is necessary to move yet less than 300 … 400 km ( ~ 185…250 mi) to the nearest settlement. Especially movement without skis on snow depth 1 … 1,5 m ( ~ 3…5 ft) simply is impossible. And it is necessary to have still possibility, skill and equipment for several wood (without small houses and an oven) spending the night in conditions of winter of Northern Ural Mountains in February. Then there quite often there come frosts to-40C ( -40 F), and sometimes and to-50C( -58 F). For example – it is Swedish expedition in January and February 2019. + the travel of group Chelyabinsk and Nizhniy Tagil (and as also our expedition) in February 2014. And now the winter became softer, in comparison with 1959 because has taken place the general warming of a climate.
On it the theme of murder Dyatlov group by prisoners can be closed in general. And who wants to continue conversation for conversation process - it we will not disturb. You that is want? Simply talk, or find out that there has occurred?



March 19, 2019, 01:53:38 AM
Reply #19
Offline

WAB


Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?

I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?

March 19, 2019, 04:11:21 AM
Reply #20
Offline

Vietnamka


Very interesting. But walking from the camps to the mountains takes time. For 1958 you have some data?
I have a "balance" of "not caught" prisoners on date 01/01/1959
Only one  not caught, he has escaped on 1957, will be will be caught in 1959  far away from tht pass.

PS.
 I checked not only Ivdel camp, I checked all the camps. All information from the State Archive of the Russian Federation

March 19, 2019, 04:13:50 AM
Reply #21
Offline

Vietnamka



I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?
Its correct question. Some prisioners could escape in the end of Dec 1958.

March 19, 2019, 06:23:23 AM
Reply #22
Online

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Can people not travel in 1959 Russia?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 19, 2019, 12:08:21 PM
Reply #23
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Perm Gulag camps seem to be close to Dyatlov incident location.

http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/perm36.php

Lots of camps in the area...


As I understand, in gulag camps were imprisoned also criminals etc:
Quote
"Criminal prisoners, camping out in the forests, would organize themselves into bands, steal weapons, and even attack local residents, geological parties, and native villages. [...] Generally, memoirists agree that the overwhelming majority of would-be runaways were professional criminals. https://erenow.net/modern/gulagahistoryanneapplebaum/20.php
Maybe Dyatlov hikers met a group of criminals escaped from a nearby gulag camp? Or were they by mistake identified as persons escaped from one gulag camp?


Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ? 
DB

March 20, 2019, 09:18:21 AM
Reply #24
Offline

Vietnamka





Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ?
What do you mean "near"? 100 km? 300 km? 500 km???

March 20, 2019, 01:06:01 PM
Reply #25
Offline

WAB



I am sorry, but what for the data for 1958 if we here discuss Dyatlov group is necessary us?
Its correct question. Some prisioners could escape in the end of Dec 1958.

It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.

March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
Reply #26
Offline

Vietnamka




It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.
You can speak about "logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival" with a tourist guys. You was talking about impossibility of escapes during winter time for years. I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, doesn't matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisioner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.

Escape - not only "some guys left", it's mean "another guys try to catch ". At least two different groups of people can be in the same area. The best way for prisioners cross the border of  "Sverdlovskaya oblast" as soon as possible due to organization of searching.
For better understanding- "oblast " like a state in USA. You need time to provide information and organize searching there. Tent was found exactly on the border of 3 "oblast" - Sverdlovskay, Permskaya, KOmi.

March 21, 2019, 12:42:00 PM
Reply #27
Offline

WAB




It is wrong statement of question. I spoke about logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival of running prisoners in the conditions of winter Northern Ural Mountains. And if they cannot live and move there without special equipment and skills in current of week speak about several months already there is no sense. The typical example of such possibilities is available about Oleg Borodin in January 2015. Therefore it is not necessary begin conversations for no reason. We does not come nearer to the purpose, and we leave from it.
You can speak about "logistics of such runaways and traficability and survival" with a tourist guys. You was talking about impossibility of escapes during winter time for years.

You it is perfect distorted understand that I speak. Probably you consider running concluded by full idiots because they wish to run as it is possible further from those places where they can quickly leave or have an opportunity to hide and survive. Runaway towards pass (these are 200 km from Ivdel and still it is necessary to take place 400 km to the nearest inhabited settlement) you considers as the most important purpose of their movement. It how to regard from the point of view of normal perception of events? To tell about what that the friend I do not want, because it not a discussion theme in the given place. Probably you consider that skills of movement and maintenance with equipment are identical at the running concluded and well prepared tourists. Do not find defect in own perception of the validity? Runaway during winter time and runaway towards pass is different concepts. Therefore it is not necessary to substitute for one another only for this purpose what to argue for the sake of dispute process.

I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, doesn't matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisioner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.

Also what? You have found those concluded which ran towards pass in the winter? Or you simply have found those who tried to run in the winter and has made it unsuccessfully? At you this same it is?

Escape - not only "some guys left", it's mean "another guys try to catch ". At least two different groups of people can be in the same area. The best way for prisioners cross the border of  "Sverdlovskaya oblast" as soon as possible due to organization of searching.

1.What for cross border of Sverdlovsk area? Them there meet with an orchestra and pies? Or they therefrom should go still 400 km? They should go in the winter, without equipment and sufficient preparation?
2. You have though one example of runaway in the winter in the given area in any party, except the South or the SouthWest? That is there where there is a normal habitation and transport highways …
3.You do not tell yet only that мы не умеем сациви готовить I can estimate is worse you survival possibility in such conditions ….

For better understanding- "oblast " like a state in USA. You need time to provide information and organize searching there. Tent was found exactly on the border of 3 "oblast" - Sverdlovskay, Permskaya, KOmi.

We now that discuss? Possibility concluded run towards pass or searches of prisoners in USA state /in territory of Sverdlovsk and Perm area and Komi ASSR.
I hope, though in times 1959?  kewl1
I speak only about events with Dyatlov group and about what I will not speak any more. Because it is waste of time and words.

March 22, 2019, 12:16:21 PM
Reply #28
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient



Yes lots of camps in the USSR.  NONE at all any where near the Dyatlov Incident  !  ?
What do you mean "near"? 100 km? 300 km? 500 km???

When I think of near in the context of the Dyatlov Incident I think in terms of less than 30 km.  Because 30 km is a long way in those type of conditions. 100 km in those conditions would be pushing it, for any so called escapees.
DB

March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM
Reply #29
Offline

Nordlander


I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. For one thing, trying to escape during winter was known to cause almost certain death for those who didn't have a nearby support network.

I just read an essay by an anthropologist about attitudes toward the gulags in the area, and she stated that the Mansi were used as bounty hunters of escapees. But she said that, from what she could tell, it happened far less often than it was threatened. The administrators of the gulags would tell prisoners that if they escaped the Mansi or Khanty would catch them. Like telling children the boogy man would get them.

Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulags who remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.