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Author Topic: The ravine deaths - a theory  (Read 3833 times)

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March 27, 2019, 04:14:02 PM
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Nigel Evans



 


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

March 27, 2019, 04:49:34 PM
Reply #1
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

 


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

It's an interesting idea.  Actually after looking at your drawings I thought you were going to say a tree fell on the den, because that would provide a simple explanation.  The tree would then bounce and roll off further into the ravine where it is also covered in snow and therefore not detected when the bodies were recovered.

A tree could have been weakened by the wind and weight of snow.  A tank is a bit more difficult for me to comprehend.

I have thought that the injuries were caused by them falling out of a tree, but it may be that a tree fell on them.  Was there any sign of a fallen tree near the den later when the snow melted?

Saying that could a large rock have been dislodged on the side of the ravine and rolled over the den?  That's another possibility - some kind of rock fall.

Regards

Star man

March 27, 2019, 05:04:25 PM
Reply #2
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Nigel Evans




It's an interesting idea.  Actually after looking at your drawings I thought you were going to say a tree fell on the den, because that would provide a simple explanation.  The tree would then bounce and roll off further into the ravine where it is also covered in snow and therefore not detected when the bodies were recovered.

A tree could have been weakened by the wind and weight of snow.  A tank is a bit more difficult for me to comprehend.

I have thought that the injuries were caused by them falling out of a tree, but it may be that a tree fell on them.  Was there any sign of a fallen tree near the den later when the snow melted?

Saying that could a large rock have been dislodged on the side of the ravine and rolled over the den?  That's another possibility - some kind of rock fall.

Regards

Star man
You're quite near the tree line there so the trees are somewhat modest, the cedar being an exception. I can't see the weight of an average fir tree being sufficient, this has to be quite a few tonnes i think to exert this crushing pressure through the snow. Also the den has to collapse and configure the victims before the crushing begins and then there's a crater? Also i can't see a tree fall applying a crushing force across three bodies (one metre?) quite evenly. A much better fit is that something very heavy travelled over them applying the same crushing force having collapsed the den as it approached. Ball lightning could fit  kewl1

March 27, 2019, 05:16:09 PM
Reply #3
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Nigel Evans


The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.

March 28, 2019, 12:37:42 AM
Reply #4
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.

How would a tank get there?

I really find it difficult to see that ball lightning could attain several tonnes of relativistic mass.

Given that relativistic mass is given by:

M = ym
y is Lorentz transform
m is rest mass

And mass energy is MC^2

Where did all that energy go?

Regards

Star man



March 28, 2019, 03:21:19 AM
Reply #5
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GeneralFailure



March 28, 2019, 04:11:11 AM
Reply #6
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Nigel Evans


The problem with the tracked vehicle of course is that how were the tracks not discovered during digging down in May? Unless there was an extensive effort to conceal all traces?
I like the idea that the "cedar 3" saw the vehicle go past and were trying to reach it.

How would a tank get there?By avoiding trees  kewl1
I really find it difficult to see that ball lightning could attain several tonnes of relativistic mass.

Given that relativistic mass is given by:

M = ym
y is Lorentz transform
m is rest mass

And mass energy is MC^2

Where did all that energy go?
Have you seen this post? :-
Good paper from the :-U.S. Department of Energy
Office of Scientific and Technical Information
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1107768

It considers the Fitzgerald event of 1868. - http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/first_installment_extreme_ball_lightning.htm
Note the mass calculations.

Also checkout - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html
N.B. "GLO" is their term for "Globular Light emitting Object".

Regards

Star man
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 04:40:52 AM by Nigel Evans »

March 28, 2019, 04:27:46 AM
Reply #7
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Nigel Evans


How would a tank get there?

Maybe it was not a tank


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1
It doesn't have to be a tracked vehicle, a multi wheeled vehicle would do it, e.g. 6x6. But it must be heavy!

March 28, 2019, 04:29:36 AM
Reply #8
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Nigel Evans



March 28, 2019, 05:25:20 AM
Reply #9
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GeneralFailure


Also GT-S (Gaz 47) is from the same era:
Quote
Year of production   1954-1964
Don't know the status of the countries forming soviet union, but from this map I see that there is a border between the tent and the cedar (dotted line)


Maybe a border patrol?

March 28, 2019, 09:17:55 AM
Reply #10
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Ehtnisba


Woow this way Tibo's head is where Zolotarev's chest is, so it explains how two have chest injuries but only one broken skull. It could have been one object that caused all three injuries.

March 28, 2019, 09:40:01 AM
Reply #11
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Ehtnisba


Also GT-S (Gaz 47) is from the same era:
Quote
Year of production   1954-1964
Don't know the status of the countries forming soviet union, but from this map I see that there is a border between the tent and the cedar (dotted line)


Maybe a border patrol?

It is written граница леса , which means tree line. This just the "border" where the forest ends , no a real border for something .

March 28, 2019, 09:40:44 AM
Reply #12
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man

March 28, 2019, 10:22:47 AM
Reply #13
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Nigel Evans


Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man
Once the ravine is full of snow it becomes a treeless road through the forest up to the treeline?

March 28, 2019, 11:09:19 AM
Reply #14
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GeneralFailure


Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

Google automatic translation:
Quote
GAZ-47 transporter was a crawler -driven snow and swamp vehicle and was designed for use in particularly difficult road and climatic conditions for transporting people and goods, towing trailers, during geological exploration, in the construction and maintenance of oil and gas pipelines , power lines and communications, search and emergency rescue work and other needs of the army and national economy .
[...]
In 1959–1960, the GAZ-47 tracked transporter took part in the Antarctic inland transition on the sledge-tracked train on the route between Mirny  - Pionerskaya  - Vostok-1 stations - Komsomolskaya  - Vostok - Amundsen-Scott (South geographical pole).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A2-%D0%A1

@Nigel Evans, my opinion is the same, during the winter rivers turn into "treeless roads" See the picture of the Lozva river:



Maybe the vehicle route was Lozva river -> tributary of Lozva river ->hiker's ravine. As the "den" was build under the snow of the ravine, maybe the vehicle passed over it, making the ravine collapsing.

As for the traces, haw many weeks have passed from the incident untill the first search team was sent? ;)

March 28, 2019, 02:33:44 PM
Reply #15
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Could any of the suggested vehicles drive in and out of the ravine?  What are the ranges of the vehicles?  Why would they drive into the ravine?

A tree or large boulder would be nice and simple  whist1
Regards
Star man

No Military vehicles caused their demise. What would such vehicles be doing in a Ravine where they can get stuck badly. And even if by some extraordinary mistake a vehicle or vehicles were in that area and did cause an accident then why didnt they stop and help those injured etc. And what about the event at the Tent.
DB

March 28, 2019, 02:38:44 PM
Reply #16
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

 


The above drawing shows the ravine four in three points in time, all three diagrams are in plan form, i.e. as if looking down from above. :-
BEFORE = before the deadly event, they are sat in the the den.
EVENT   = the configuration of the bodies as the den collapses in on them. This forces them down and to lie on the floor as described. Then an extremely heavy object passes along the orange path in the snow above.
MAY      = after death the bodies remain frozen in the den as shown above. However with the spring thaw the flow of water and melting of the ice above the bodies together with some buoyancy "shuffles" them downstream into the configuration with which they are discovered.

Detailed discussion of the theory
BEFORE :-
  • The ravine is full of snow (as at the end of Feb) but at the edge of the ravine the wind has created a vertical section of snow that allows it to be exploited to produce a snow cave.
  • Lyudmila is only wearing socks and uses a jacket sleeve to protect her left foot and calf from the cold wall.
  • Nicolai is on watch (wearing two watches) and sits across the entrance. He doesn't have his own jacket (which buttons up) so he borrows Lyudmila's zipped jacket. It's my preference that this act is consensual, in the Ortorten News they are linked romantically. Lyudmila sits at the back (warmer) and has two jumpers and two shirts. Maybe they huddle close.
EVENT :-
  • An extremely heavy object passes over the top of the den. This causes the den roof to collapse and the walls to deform.
  • This collapse results in forcing the four into the configuration as shown.
  • The object moves upwards in the diagram along the orange band exerting a crushing force through the snow such that although no skin tissue is bruised  the larger volumes of the chest and head as shown are crushed in the following time order.
  • Lyudmila - lying on her right side, chest fractures to right side. Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.  There is then a second crushing event that fractures the left side of her chest.
  • Nicolai - his head is facing Semyon with the rhs of the head against the den floor but with his chest facing the den floor. The crushing force presses the head against the den floor until the rhs of the skull and the base of the skull fracture, deforming the shape of his head. His right shoulder receives internal bruising.
  • Semyon - is lying on his back, receives a chest fracture on his rhs, right shoulder blade pressed on the den floor fractures and the rhs of his head is pressed against the den floor creating a wound.
  • Alexsander - is lying on his right side. He is pushed down with such force that his mastoid process (conical area of bone behind the right ear) connects with the den floor creating a wound. His left leg is lying on the den floor and the rolling object presses it hard against the floor creating internal bleeding on the inside of the knee. Semyon's chest protects Alexsander's knee from further crushing. Alexsander's neck receives sufficient downforce to dislocate the thyroid area. Alexsander's face is pressed down hard enough that the pathologist records an oval defect in the right cheek.

Speculation as to the nature of the objectBall lightning could do this!  kewl1
However the clear favourite has to be a heavy tracked vehicle.

Reasons :-
  • At least one pathologist has stated that Lyudmila's fractures require two events and a tracked vehicle fits this very well, as it got very close the den collapse would have created a crater. The front of the vehicle drops into the crater creating one fracture and then as the front climbs out, the rear of the vehicle also drops into the same crater creating the second.
  • The "crushing zone" seems to be very narrow, googling this most WW2 tanks for example have a track width of approx 30cm.
Further thoughtsLyudmila suffers the worst predation from rodents. This is because as the spring thaw creates a trickle of water down the ravine into the river the scent of decomposition advertises the bodies across a significant distance. When these rodents follow this scent the first body they encounter is Lyudmila's.
Now was it a complete coincidence that a tracked vehicle was using the ravine that night to ascend to pas the tree line? Or was there a radar signature above Kholat Syakhl that the military were interested in? Did the surviving three at the cedar see a vehicle ascending the hill and set off to seek rescue?

Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.
DB

March 28, 2019, 03:46:23 PM
Reply #17
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?  Even though it was three weeks before they were found, the Dyatlov group ski tracks were still visible and the search and rescue team followed them until they found the tent.  Their foot prints were still preserved in the snow near the tent and on the slope.  Surely a multi tonne all terrain vehicle would have left some traces.

The crush in the den theory is interesting, but a vehicle being the cause is unlikely.

The group would have heard this vehicle coming from miles away.  Do you think they would still be in their survival den as the vehicle drives over the top of them?  Or would they have left the den and run towards the vehicle shouting ------" hay we're here help us". Even if the people in the vehicle caused them to flee the tent, they would still move away from the vehicle to a place where they couldn't run them over.

Regards

Star man

March 28, 2019, 04:13:02 PM
Reply #18
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Nigel Evans



Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.
Which theory is wild? The crushed under the snow theory or the rodent theory? If they died under the snow what else would the predation be?

March 28, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
Reply #19
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Nigel Evans


Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?  Even though it was three weeks before they were found, the Dyatlov group ski tracks were still visible and the search and rescue team followed them until they found the tent.  Their foot prints were still preserved in the snow near the tent and on the slope.  Surely a multi tonne all terrain vehicle would have left some traces.The vehicle theory needs a coverup afterwards.


The crush in the den theory is interesting, but a vehicle being the cause is unlikely.

The group would have heard this vehicle coming from miles away.  Do you think they would still be in their survival den as the vehicle drives over the top of them?  Or would they have left the den and run towards the vehicle shouting ------" hay we're here help us". Even if the people in the vehicle caused them to flee the tent, they would still move away from the vehicle to a place where they couldn't run them over.Hearing something approaching perhaps but recognising it as a vehicle under the snow, less likely. Maybe they made the wrong choice.

Regards

Star man

March 28, 2019, 07:41:51 PM
Reply #20
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
If they were originally injured/died in the 'den'.....  how did the bodies get 'washed/pushed' so far away from said den without having also washed/pushed the den floor and the articles of clothing upon it that they were presumably sitting on?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 28, 2019, 09:14:00 PM
Reply #21
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cennetkusu


It's ridiculous. First of all, they wanted to make a four in the river bed. Because the river bed had blown ice. And his feet were bare. And there was Ludmina and Semyon ahead. So they sat down and settled in. But there was an attack just like the tent here. Just like in the tent .... So no difference. They tried to run away again. But this time quickly ... But they could not get far away from. They captured. The most far away was Ludmina. 'Cause he was in your mouth. Then Semyon. Because he was right by the Ludminas. This attacker must be very fast, this quartet could only walk a few feet away !!! The most reaction was given by Ludmina and Semyon ... So they had the most damage ... While Lumina was dying, she was supine. Only because the attacker can take his eyes and his language. Then he must have turned around to die. Kolevatov has turned around. So the offensive creature attacked them from behind. And the first Kolevatova coincided. That's why Kolevatov's back is facing the land. So the impact of the attacker turned him towards Nikolaya ... And as he hugs him ........
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

March 28, 2019, 09:16:59 PM
Reply #22
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cennetkusu


In other words, an attack was carried out in the cave like in a tent ... But this attack was intended to kill. That's why they ran away. But they were all caught in a very short time.
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

March 29, 2019, 12:26:28 AM
Reply #23
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GeneralFailure


Just another thought on the vehicle theory.  Where are the tracks?

If we combine this theory with the murder theory, then it becomes obvious why were not found any tracks of any vehicle. Only a stupid murderer would not cover his tracks. This applies to all the murder theories also, so PLEASE, stop asking about the tracks left in the snow by the criminals (army/secret services/mansi/khanti etc).

March 29, 2019, 05:03:05 AM
Reply #24
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Nigel Evans


If they were originally injured/died in the 'den'.....  how did the bodies get 'washed/pushed' so far away from said den without having also washed/pushed the den floor and the articles of clothing upon it that they were presumably sitting on?
Excellent question.
First the den walls deforming in the event could have pushed the four say 0.5m this way or that.

Then, just as glaciers typically travel 1 metre per day the ravine snow will obey gravity and flow to a degree. Any displacement of the top layer filled with fresh snow adding new mass to continue the action. There are two gradients, from the side of the ravine to the centre of the stream and downstream to the river. The first gradient will be the key one. Once they're pushed into the stream the spring thaw will do the rest. The movement will be helped by the stream eroding the snow next to it weakening it and encouraging the traverse flow.

There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?  kewl1
Taking the more difficult case i think it's quite plausible that they traveled 6m in 3 months. Much would depend on the actual gradients.

March 29, 2019, 05:50:31 AM
Reply #25
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Nigel Evans


Much would depend on the actual gradients.
@Loose}{Cannon - i have a memory of someone posting detailed photos of the ravine in the summer (including best guesses to locations) but can't find them on the site? They would be very useful in arguing whether the gradients would support my last post.

March 29, 2019, 05:57:44 AM
Reply #26
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

March 29, 2019, 06:50:52 AM
Reply #27
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Nigel Evans


If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.

Well there is a gradient :-



Some of the photos of the den are clearly "reconstructed". But if this photo is "as originally discovered" then i think it supports my case as the seats have clearly been flattened and pushed towards the right. The argument would be that the bodies would offer much more resistance and travel right much further (i'm assuming the stream is to the right).





March 29, 2019, 07:06:12 AM
Reply #28
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Nigel Evans


I'm arguing for "snow creep" and "snow glide" but transversely across the ravine's gradient which will be amplified by the stream removing compacted snow at the bottom.
http://www.risknet-alcotra.org/rna/allegati/holler-1_641.pdf

March 29, 2019, 08:12:12 AM
Reply #29
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GeneralFailure


There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).