September 15, 2019, 07:04:13 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Elk(s) attack  (Read 3954 times)

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April 08, 2019, 10:56:24 AM
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Radim

Guest
Hello,
my theory of Dyatlavov pass is following:

During 2011-2016 I served in military in reconaisance team as an older scout. In 2012 and 2014 I have been also deployed in Afghanistan. During my duty I was on 3 weeks dificult training in Savoi mountines, when at night were temperatures above -20 Celsium degrees. I mentioned this facts because I think that my minds could be a little bit similar like Zolotaryov`s.

The expedition has in tent quite aromatic food and was windy. If somebody spent longer time in nature, than his nose is much sensitive to any odeurs. If is windy and you are located 2-3 weeks in nature than is possible to spot by nose a person in 50m distance from you because of used deodorant.  Elks have a very good olfactory organs, much better than people. In my opinion they were tracked by food smell prints.

During the night or dark evening one of the person went to pie outside the tent. This person was relatively better dressed - he had a shoes and warm clothes. After the pie, (founded 0ml of urine in urine blader) he spotted elk/elks in very close distance of tent and panic started - chaotic footprints around the tent. He probably tried to hide behind the tent.  He noticed others in tent by voice. Elk/elks could hit the tent. This fact could forced the whole stress situation. So the others in tent started to rip the tent by knife to fast escape.

When they saw the whole panic situation they decided to establish "line formation". Line formation is a combat formation. This was probably Zolotaryov`s decission. In this "line formation" they tried to push out the elk/elks out of the tent teritorry. Adrenaline and stress situation caused imposibility of any time to dress up. They alternatively tried to push out the elk/elks. During the movement somebody threw the flashlight to elk/elks. The elk/elks probably started to be more and more agressive. During the pushing out probably occured first physical contacts between animal and Djatlavov members. Injured/scratched finger junctures. They probably fought by hand fight because they had any weapon. The whole fight culminated nearby the cedar. The elk critically wound Dubininova(critical chest wound) and her teammate(critical head wound). Doroshenko and his buddy started to escape in cedar crown. After the attack, the elk/elks escaped in forrest. Doroshenko and his buddy were not be able to get down from cedar crown. Adrenaline has already left. They probably fall down because of hypothermy.  Now started a very hard dilema. The whole group was wound by some type. Somebody critically, somebody less.

Zolotaryov decided to split the group for 2 teams. 1 three member team and second 6 member team (respective 3 member team) because Doroshenko with his cedar teammate were probably dead and Dubininova was dying. Both of teams tried to rescue Doroshenko and his cedar teammate by set up the fire. This is the reason of burns on their bodies and clothes. When they infered it has no sence, they took out their clothes. Dyatlavov members were still able to making decissions!

Dyatlavov, Zina and thirdone established team which was less wound and which was much movement available then others and they started to movement back to the tent for warm clothes, aid, maybe some food. Zolotaryov team tried to establish a new base nearby the cedar. He dragged dying Dubininova in a new base together with Brinogles. She was probably still alive because Doroshenko and his cedar friend were left under the cedar. (It has not sence to move them also).

Zolotaryov group vainly waited for Dyatlov team support. The reason of position manipulated with bodies mean that they moved in "column formation" - unfight formation. On the front tip of formation was the weakness member, second position was position of less weak member, third one was the strongest member. They gradually fell off during movement and person behind them checked by back turn them and tried to took some clothes. At this time they could be circa 1 hour out of the tent. They died because of hypothermy. In second team I paradoxically think that Dubinova died as a penultimate. Because I think she layed in the middle (second position form left) of four persons in snow burial. Later her body was torn down in stream by melting snow. The last buddy (second on right, died as the last) - maybe next day. The members in the middle tried to use dead bodies as an insulate.

On the pictures of Zina`s body we can see something what looks like the grass on her trousers, but I think that it is too short for grass - I think this is the elk/elks hair.
The elk`s footprints are in my opinion also spotted on the picture of photographed footprint in the snow.

Dubininova missed her tongue because of ownself beat which was caused by hypotermy. She bite just a bit (100ml of blood) in stomach. The residue of tongue was eaten by microorganisms or animal. Because of blood smell presence). It is also the reason why was founded in Doroshenko`s mouth the residues of his skin. He tried to avoid of tongue wound because of teeth grinding.

I think that military / nuclear theorys does not make sence. Every bomb test requires an observer or observation group, who is monitoring the drop zone because of effects evaluation. Any observators will not give a green light to bomb drop in case of 9 people in drop zone area. Also was the night. Half of 20.th century with absence of night vision items - such an attempt would not make sense. If you test something - you want to see the effect. Not dark night.

Also why should goverment kill own citizens? (9, young, loyal engineers - the future and elite of Soviet union)...?

This theory could be proved or disproved by simply DNA test from Zina`s trousers. However this is probably unreal after 60 years.



Sending greetings from Czech!
   


 

April 08, 2019, 11:15:55 AM
Reply #1

Radim

Guest
Also about blood presence in Dubininova stomach...

If she had a critically chest wound - she probably had closed pneumothorax, so she coughed the blood and then she swallowed it.
I think there was a combination of herself (teeth) wound and pneumothorax.

My opinion :)

Have a nice day.


April 08, 2019, 01:14:17 PM
Reply #2
Offline

Nigel Evans


It was never described as blood  - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743
"The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass."
If the group left footprints wouldn't animals?

April 08, 2019, 01:51:06 PM
Reply #3

Radim

Guest
Hello,
thank you for your point.

I saw many animal footprints in my life.
I was trained to recognize according the footprints many informations. (Weigh of person, if he is carring a bergen, if he is fagued, etc..) all this small informations could tell me who can be my enemy. (Special operations long range distance group, or just some infantryman, etc..) Footprints are not just a footprints. Footprints are very good informations for someone who can read it.

The first picture is from Dyatlavov case evidence and I see there a many animal footprints. And I think this are the elks footprints.
Secondone is the elk footprint.

The  dark brown consistence in Dubininova stomach probably was the blood - refer the closed pneumothorax effects. If the broken rib ripped the cor wall - then the broken ribs should defect also the lung. 

But its just my opinion.



nine sided die





April 08, 2019, 01:56:47 PM
Reply #4
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Interesting theory. We have had many animal theories and this is one more variation on the theme. Always good to see new ways of looking at the mystery.  Elks are big animals and their presence would have left many traces. HOOF PRINTS, HAIR, SCAT, come to mind.
I just cant see how such a big animal probably running around all over the place would escape without leaving plenty of evidence ! ?   
DB

April 08, 2019, 02:41:16 PM
Reply #5
Offline

cz


Interesting idea.

Are there any known instances of similar elk attacks?

The lack of traces is a problem for all the animal theories. I think I see what you mean on the image (although I cannot say whether it is an elk). What puzzles me is that the Mansi searchers have not have identified such traces. They should have been highly qualified, and the result would have relieved their people of any suspicion.

April 08, 2019, 03:03:28 PM
Reply #6

Radim

Guest
Check this video (for example).


April 08, 2019, 03:12:56 PM
Reply #7

Radim

Guest
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

April 08, 2019, 03:32:25 PM
Reply #8

Radim

Guest
According Mansis skills with tracking - yes I think I know what you mean.

The problem is that they did not know all the informations which we know today after 60 years. They did not know the body dissect reports, etc. They were in terain and they just saw a dressed frozen bodies. They "just" saw the scenarary. They probalby had not time to analyze their recognitions with official investigators.

I also doubt that some of investigate officiers take not them seriously. In my opinion the investigators considered  Mansijs as some crazy bushers.

Mansijs probably are very good scouts, but this is a little bit more than tracking. Its about informations and personal inteligence. Im sure they could recognize elks footprints at place, or any place, but a lot of people will say that it can be printed week ago, 5 days ago, 4 days ago....

To recognize the footprints older than 48 hours you will have to lead a notes of weather for each day till you need to recognize. Because after 48 hours a lot of peaople cannot remeber what was the weather later.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 03:41:23 PM by Radim »

April 09, 2019, 12:12:35 AM
Reply #9
Offline

Monika


Hello,

Here is my point of view. Against this theory (and any animals) says

- the lack of animal traces in the snow, on the tent and on the bodies
- chocolate and a large piece of pork have remained intact in the tent.

April 09, 2019, 12:34:48 AM
Reply #10

Radim

Guest
Hello Monika,
thank you for your point.

How can we see, some animal footrprints are spotted. It depends what they though by term “lack” of steps...

The elks are herbs eaters-they dont eat a meat or chocolate so it can be the reason why it stayed in tent.




April 09, 2019, 12:44:29 AM
Reply #11

Radim

Guest
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 01:31:09 AM by Radim »

April 09, 2019, 01:35:51 AM
Reply #12

Radim

Guest
According this facts I think there is no reason to "cover something" during the autopsyies by coroners..No - they just had not informations :)

April 09, 2019, 01:19:35 PM
Reply #13
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Interesting idea.

Are there any known instances of similar elk attacks?

The lack of traces is a problem for all the animal theories. I think I see what you mean on the image (although I cannot say whether it is an elk). What puzzles me is that the Mansi searchers have not have identified such traces. They should have been highly qualified, and the result would have relieved their people of any suspicion.

There was no traces of any animals let alone a big animal like an ELK.
DB

April 09, 2019, 01:21:05 PM
Reply #14
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?
DB

April 09, 2019, 01:25:11 PM
Reply #15
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
According Mansis skills with tracking - yes I think I know what you mean.

The problem is that they did not know all the informations which we know today after 60 years. They did not know the body dissect reports, etc. They were in terain and they just saw a dressed frozen bodies. They "just" saw the scenarary. They probalby had not time to analyze their recognitions with official investigators.

I also doubt that some of investigate officiers take not them seriously. In my opinion the investigators considered  Mansijs as some crazy bushers.

Mansijs probably are very good scouts, but this is a little bit more than tracking. Its about informations and personal inteligence. Im sure they could recognize elks footprints at place, or any place, but a lot of people will say that it can be printed week ago, 5 days ago, 4 days ago....

To recognize the footprints older than 48 hours you will have to lead a notes of weather for each day till you need to recognize. Because after 48 hours a lot of peaople cannot remeber what was the weather later.
[/quote


The Investigators were only to willing to let the Mansi help them in their search for the Dyatlov bodies. Therefore why would they have thought of them as crazy bushers ! ?
DB

April 09, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Reply #16
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?
DB

April 09, 2019, 02:10:29 PM
Reply #17

Radim

Guest
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

April 09, 2019, 02:33:36 PM
Reply #18
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.
DB

April 09, 2019, 02:38:09 PM
Reply #19

Radim

Guest
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 





« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:34:14 AM by Teddy »

April 09, 2019, 02:51:34 PM
Reply #20

Radim

Guest
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.

April 09, 2019, 03:01:46 PM
Reply #21

Radim

Guest
I do not say that the Dyatlavov pass was been killed by elk. No. (Excluding Dubininova and secondone with head wound, both of them  will probably died in all way after this meeting with elk/elks).

I just think that the elk/elks were the reason why the Dyatlavov pass frozen.


If exists some Picture of Dyatlavovs line formation prints, than I can make analyzation (description) of their movement, but I have not found usable Picture.

The Picture with footprints above just confirms to me, that the person really went without shoes without bergen. If the print in blue area on right is really elks (and Im starting to be sure it is really elks footprints) than the right elk footprint is less than 30cm next of human footprint. This confirms me of very close attack.

I dont see any ELK Hoof Prints  !  ?

OK, what are according your opinion the prints in blue borders ..?? (picture above)

I remember some years ago when I got interested in TRACKING.  I was especially interested in stories of Tracks in SNOW. What I learned was fairly straightforward. Tracks in Snow can be very misleading. There are factors at play that can give a completely wrong impression [ no pun intended ]. One factor is TEMPERATURE. Often overlooked. Another is RAIN. Obviously the depth of the Snow is important. So lets say a HOOF PRINT is made in the Snow. The Snow will change shape. How fast depends on the factors at play. Erosion is considered a fairly slow process. But it may change shape more quickly. So when the Dyatlov Search Parties found various PRINTS or TRACKS in the Snow those shapes would most likely be different to when they were first made. Do you see where Iam coming from.

I think I understand where are you heading.. (I work for 5 years as a scout in recco). In my opinion you have globaly true, but..
If there stayed a human footprint for 3 weeks, than the animals will stay also. It means that during circa 3 weeks (till searchers found first group) the weather was stable. And the prints in blue borders are animal prints. And very very close of human print. According the photo distance and compare with human footprint I guess that the animal print is circa 30cm from human left leg footprint.

This also could confirm the hit from right back side (right hip) - refer Zinas trousers.

Because is not spotted the right human footprint in the picture view area circa (40cm) than it looks like running footprint - long distance between left footprint and right footprint, also the direction is straight (backs to animal footprints). According my opinion this human has been hit in running to the back right side of body. (Maybe Zinas trousers polution of elk hairs....?)

April 09, 2019, 03:49:55 PM
Reply #22

Radim

Guest
In the picture we can see a Zinas injuries.

She has wound on the right back side - kidneys. The place which is polluted by "grass" (elks hairs).
The analyzated print in picture is according my opinion also Zinas.

Radim


« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:35:00 AM by Teddy »

April 09, 2019, 03:55:17 PM
Reply #23

Radim

Guest
The face injuries (brushes) and injured fingers are probably act of covering the face front elks hoof.

Check the video of old man deadly attacked by elk - the same situation:
He is trying to escape, when the elk hit him from back side, the man is turning from belly side to back side and the elk is repeatedly stomping at him.
This guy also tries to fight by hand fight with elk.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 04:00:27 PM by Radim »

April 09, 2019, 04:01:20 PM
Reply #24

Radim

Guest
I think we have just solved a substantial part of this mystery.

ELK, ELK, ELK

April 09, 2019, 04:20:25 PM
Reply #25

Radim

Guest
Lets continue in our elk/elks theory.

Zina was relatively OK after attack than others - she was able to movement according the autopsy picture. She has any injuries which could block her walk.
In my opinion it is the reason of movement to tent for clothes, aid, maybe food with Djatlov and other guy. (2nd Support group - refer the first article in elk/elks theory).

Tommorow I will try to analyze the injuries of Dyatlavov and next guy in slope. If they will be movent able to - than it can forced our theory.

"99" (Good night)

Radim

April 09, 2019, 08:25:59 PM
Reply #26
Offline

Ehtnisba


 bang1
I wonder how people jump so fast on conclusions when they are new to the case... I remember how when I first read about this case in wikipedia i was like - oh this is so clear it is a bear...  Reading more and more if you are a clever person you stop repeating bear,bear,bear or in your case - elk,elk,elk... There is a guy with a wolverine too. And all the people married to a theory can fit the "evidences" to work for their theory.. Because the case miss crucial files due to unprofessionals or intended secrecy. With this case you can "fit" the photos and present facts even with a theory about shark attack, believe me. I just don't have the time to write you an example.
Those things in your blue circles are just deformations in the snow that happen on every wind blown slope, usually from small hard pieces of icy snow blown from the wind hitting the surface and leaving a slightly visible hole. How could a person of 60 kg leave such a deep track, but 400kg elk will only scratch the surface of the snow sooo slightly almost invisible???
Photos from the case are so poor quality that nobody could say what it is in the small details. Some people  are seeing Mansis in the bushes,others claim to see UFOs or grey aliens... I could say that things on zinas pants are bread crusts from the tent and will be equal wrong as you with your hairs.
Don't get me wrong, i don't want to sound rude  but i do believe that smart people are not hard sure , but are always doubtful and perceptive ,especially discussing this case. People with professional knowledge from nowadays like pathologists , investigators , physicians, etc,etc  are looking for years in this case and have no firm answer, only hypothesis ,so you and me can't solve it from several fast conclusions. Hope you got what I mean and I mean it in a friendly manner🖤

April 10, 2019, 03:38:41 AM
Reply #27

Radim

Guest
Hello Ethnisba,
thank you for your point. According your answer you dont have to feel rude  wink1 .
Because you spent a time with large, logical answer.
However, very smart people have one vices. They are looking for complexities in vain and it is the reason why they are often unable to make decisions efficiently.

In 2015 during 3 weeks - intensive MPSO training I have led the lessons of Multinational military students in area of "Ground signs awarenes" ( I will try to add in attachement one of powerpoint lesson).

I remember my first lesson with my students, when I prepared before lesson a square area of 10 x 10meters where I put different types of ground signs. (Snow, mud, grass footprints without bergen, footprints with 40 kgs bergen on backs, print of bergen again in snow, grass, mud. Broken boughs, left smoked cigarette, snow flattening of body who lay 10 seconds in snow, 15 minutes in snow, weapon snow flattening running footprints in snow, mud, grass, etc, etc, etc..

When the students firstly stand in front of my miniature 10*10m training ground I asked my students: " What do you see?" They just baldly answered to me: "Footprints..."   After 3 weeks of training for example they were available to find a burried command wire of explosives or camouflaged hand granade inside the root of tree. As you know they never could to see a burried wire or granade by eyes. They found it because of ground signs. Somebody had to go there, to install the items there. Somebody who makes it everytime left some activity signs. You need to take in mind every detail. Your eyes must scanning the scenary from left side to right side, not contra...etc, etc. It is very long time issue.

However to read the footprints is the eliminary base of every recco scout and the snowprints are the easiest basics. If you cannot read a footprints in snow, than probaly you will never be able to find a burried command wire in summer grass. If you will not find a burried command wire in Afghanistan during patrol, then you and your teammates will be probably wound or die because of initialized explosive device. Without any high-tech equipment, just by sences and skills.

Yet it all, in 2012 we missed some ground awarness signs during the patrol nearby the Puli-Alam and my vehicle has been blowed by IED. We just made a mistake because we overlooked some signs. After iincident we made analyzation of are and the signs were very very noticeable and visible.  we overlooked even though we were careful and we were masters in IED searching.

I think I'm not some deranged guy with screams in this forum. My theory is based on visuals and materials which are available.
If somebody will try to say me  that the marks in blue borders are not animals, than I have to say NO! and my reasoning is based on my experiences.
If somebody will try to say me that the pollution on Zinas trousers are from grass, than I have to say no (unless she sit on cactus).

When I started to think about Dyatlavov  expedition pass, I started from one factor - Zolotaryev. My starting mind were: "How could an Sovie elite soldier who survived WWII with probably very good skills in bushcraft died for hypotermy in mountines together with other 8 hikers??". His minds could be quite similar like mine. In my opinion they dont wanted to push the elk/els for whole 1500m to cedar. No, they probably wanted to push him out of the tent max. 500 meters of close tent range. Then go back to tent. But the elk could broken their line formation and started to push them to cedar. The situation could turned.

According your point of prints - lay flattenings of fight could not be spotted by searchers because of thin flattening snow print. All lay body snow prints were earased by wind and by "time". Dyatlov, Zina and thirdone in slope were covered by snow and they were not visible for first time. However the weather was stable, the lay flattenings (fighting flattening prints) were already covered by snow.
Stayed just deep prints - footprints. Elks and humans.

Elk has 4 hooves.
Circa 500/4= 125 kgs per feet. Standing (calm position)
Elks movement = 500/3  = 166 kgs per feet.

Human has 2 feets.
Circa 90/2 = 45 kgs per feet.  Standing (calm position)
Human movement 90/1  - = 90 kgs per feet. A little less because of shear friction)
Human run movement 90/1 + something = could be circa 100 and above kgs per feet because of higher step high.
 
It can explain why the prints in picture above has a similar deepness.

So after that I tried to understand their movement from tent to cedar. Confused "line formation = combat formation" If we were under fire during exercises, and situation allowed to dominate our team force, than at the most of situations we used a line formation. If the enemy was stronger than our team, than we just tried to push out of enemy.
You will never lead your team in "column formation" in case of front treat. This shard uncovered me another, another, and another. I did not know at first that it was caused by elk/elks. No.

Elk is just a summary of my equation. On my mind this "mystery" is a set of 2 equations of one unknown and I think that the "x" has been calculated. The rest are just maths procedures. - they just frozen.
This "mathematic" process is very difucult because of inaccurate assignment. (very poor inspection and documenting of crime scene by searching teams - students, some milicioners, etc..)
Nowaday this "mystery" will be probably solved very fastly by presence of professional criminals technics.

I think Im open to spread all other theories of UFO, Military tests, Gulag killers, Infrasounds, and etc shits.  Including professional scientific rhetoricians by 1 short question for each other theory.

 
I just say that it was elk/elks. (My opinion).


The attachement in powerpoint is not possible to add. In case of interest I can send via mail.



Radim
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 03:55:50 AM by Radim »

April 10, 2019, 12:49:28 PM
Reply #28

Clacon

Guest
I was reading up on elk, but unfortunately, most of the info is pertaining to North American elk.

They say attacks generally occur during mating season by males or by females with calves. Mating season in North America occurs Aug - Oct I think....do you know what months they mate in Russia?? I am hoping its around about Jan/Feb - March/April for obvious reasons.

I don't know....this could be a pretty good explanation - maybe for the Ravine 4 deaths (although I would expect to see more bruising) or for what spooked them out of the tent that night??

April 10, 2019, 01:13:54 PM
Reply #29

Radim

Guest
Hello Clacon,
I confirm your elks mating season. (Aug-Oct).
But, In January/February they could have 6-9 month old broods.

I think it is not much important fact, because every animal can attack everytime. - not only in mating season.
So it is hard to say.