August 26, 2019, 12:17:56 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Altercation on the pass  (Read 911 times)

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April 08, 2019, 10:51:59 PM
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Teddy

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Well known pathologist involved with Dyatlov case, Eduard Tumanov, who is participant in the current expedition with the prosecutor's office, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them. Judging from the official autopsy records, Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death. We are talking abrasions and bruises, common for injuries from blunt objects: a fist, a branch, any solid blunt object. On the face and hands there are abrasions covered with a crust, bruises turning green. This indicates that the duration of the injury is greater than those minutes, hours that could have occurred before their deaths. And they could be sustained in a fight, or in some other events. Most likely, the group came into conflict with someone in the area of the pass.

Here is a closer look at the injuries on Krivonischenko, who was found together with Doroshenko near an extinct fire under cedar. The lower left half of the pants is missing to the level of the knee joint. The edges of the underpants fabric at the edges are uneven with the charring of the fabric. It turns out that the lower left half of the pants burned on the leg. Why and how could this happen?

Further multiple abrasions on the body. The site of sedimentation in the center of the frontal region. In the left temporal region there are two abrasions of red-brown color. The area from the right temple to the nape has an internal hemorrhage. And this suggests a strong blow or blows to the temporal and rear region of the head. But for some reason, the expert does not describe external damage to the right temporal region. And this is amazing. There should be a visible bruise.

Perhaps a few punches with a fist, or a hard blunt object. And here is another very interesting detail. The rear of the right hand in Krivonischenko, as the expert wrote, is swollen. In the area of the metacarpophalangeal joints (knuckles), the soft tissues are whitish-gray in color, the fingers are brown-violet. On the back of these fingers minor skin abrasions. This picture is likely to indicate a fight. Krivonischenko was beaten on the head and he hit his right fist. We read further: on the middle phalanx of the third finger, the defect of the epidermis, in shape and size coincides with that found in the oral cavity. It turns out that Krivonischenko bit off a piece of skin from his finger. Krivonischenko could have been beaten and tortured. Probably, he couldn't stand the pain so he bit off his skin. And here's another mystery. On the middle phalanx of the fourth, fifth fingers skin wound, tight to the touch. With charring. Again, it is not clear what kind of skin wound? An expert describes a burn? But if he described the burn, he would have to write what form he was and there are many more details. And here it is just like a wound, and with charring.

Tumanov's opinion is that all bodies should be exhumed and subjected to a new full autopsy for missed or omitted on purpose details. xHe is pointing at the following discrepancies and violations when the bodies were first protocoled:
  • When first the bodies were found there should be a forensic expert present to observe the position and overall condition of the bodies the way they were discovered. The presence and localization of deformities and the condition of the skin as a whole are not described, visible lesions on the body are described only partially. The clothes and the position of the corpses are described very superficially.
  • No forensic survey of the scene of the incident was carried out, photos were uninformative, closer in execution to artistic shooting than to criminalistic.
  • The conclusions in the first five autopsy reports were copy/pasted:
        "... the death of Doroshenko (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlova, Slobodina) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by swelling of the meninges, a sharp replenishment of the internal organs, overflow of dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Vishnevsky spots on the gastric mucosa, frostbite fingers of limbs ... ".
  • In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that pieces of internal organs were taken for histological examination, but only the last four have results in the criminal case - N. V. Thibeaux-Brignolle , A. S. Kolevatov , A. A. Zolotaryov and L. A. Dubinina. It can be assumed that the histology of the first five bodies was deliberately concealed, as it was clearly more informative than that of the bodies found two months later.
  • In each of the nine autopsy reports, Vozrozhdenny writes that pieces of internal organs were taken for a forensic chemical study. But in the materials of the case there is not a single result of the forensic chemical test that should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. There is more information in this fact - for alcohol presence are collected blood and urine. Vozrozhdenny indicates that parts of the internal organs were taken for the forensic chemical examination. This means that he sent the samples for a forensic chemical testing not only for alcohol, but also for the presence of poisons. 6. And finally, the location of livor mortis spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their discovery. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko were found face down, and the expert described the livor mortis spots on the back of their bodies. Zinaida Kolmogorova has the same description, which, as stated in the examination certificate, was found lying on her side. There is controversy on this point.
    In "Судебно-медицинское исследование тела Рустема Слободина. Незаданные вопросы и неполученные ответы..." ("Forensic examination of the body of Rustem Slobodin. Answers not received on questions not asked...") - scroll to the bottom, the author speculates that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis. Article is citing the forensic bible at the time "Forensic medicine" 1953 by M. I. Rayski where there is no mentioning of frostbite erythema but on p. 233 it says that livor mortis in frozen cadavers change color when carried in a warm room from purple to light red, and then darken again. Same thing happens with frostbite erythema when defrosting a corpse. So the author of the article says "it is not surprising that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenny thought that he sees livor mortis spots".

April 08, 2019, 11:59:57 PM
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Monika


This theory has weak points.

     As „the location of rigor mortis spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their discover“
 - I think the bodies were turned after death so that others could make sure if they were really dead and also be able to take their clothes.

       „Dyatlov group members have injuries sustained perhaps a day or two before the onset of death“
- If they had a fight before, they would certainly have wrote about it in their diary. On the contrary, it is evident from the diary as well as photos that a good friendship ruled there.

April 09, 2019, 12:02:24 AM
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gypsy


- If they had a fight before, they would certainly have wrote about it in their diary. On the contrary, it is evident from the diary as well as photos that a good friendship ruled there.

The absence of evidence of the fight in the diary is not an evidence that the fight did not happen. We should stick to evidence when there is inconsistency with written or spoken statements. Let's wait for further details.

April 09, 2019, 09:17:36 AM
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Nigel Evans


From memory it was clear (bits of clothing and even flesh?) that someone had fallen down the cedar quite badly. Given Yuri K's burns he is the obvious candidate for falling, becoming concussed on landing for long enough to burn his hands or legs. Else it was something more "exotic".

April 15, 2019, 02:33:41 PM
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Angel1


I agree with the female Russian criminologist who believes it was murder.  The nature of the injuries indicate a fight.  But then it becomes by whom?  I think the autopsy reports were purposefully edited.  Until you get the true complete one the speculation will be never ending.  That foot long bruise on Zina's side.  Who know really when they died?  Ratikin's book isn't in English and the translations seem very wordy and meandering.  I wish there was a concise interview with him. 

April 15, 2019, 04:42:42 PM
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Ehtnisba


I managed to read Rakitins book with google translate and ir was almost fine. First part of the book where he describes the autopsies and families and background of the hikers is really good and points out at interesting facts.
Second part in opinion is more like a fiction novel about spies. There are too many speculations and details that are impossible to be assumed. He could have written only that he thinks it was a controled delivery gone wrong . But maybe he wanted to make the book longer and included that long story of action battle and helicopters and all.
Anyway his way of thinking and making observations was very logical so I liked his theory and the way he cobcludes it.
Other author I liked is Svetlana Oss, again murder theory but supposibg that Khanty did it. Again strogest arguments are the autopsies.

April 15, 2019, 09:21:01 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Rakitin.   

Some people in the US blame Russia for everything, some people in Russia blame the US for everything.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 16, 2019, 09:02:44 AM
Reply #7

Clacon

Guest
So what are we all thinking about Tumanov's "altercation on the pass" theory?

Revelation 1 is that, according to a PATHOLOGIST (with or without a motive): bruises were about a day old, crust had formed on wounds (scabbing).

However, nothing is mentioned in the diaries about an altercation, save for the unknown diary regarding the "sewing of the tent", between Lyuda and Nicolai.

They are what, 4-5 days out of the abandoned mining town. Do you think they could have been followed from there? Or even from the previous settlement?

Could they have sustained injuries to faces and hands building the storage??

All diaries mention Mansi and signs of them everywhere....maybe something not to be ignored??

The only other interesting thing I was reading was about following a deer hunters trail? "Till  now we walk along a Mansi trail, which was crossed by a deer hunter not long ago.
Yesterday we apparently came across his resting stop."

So perhaps not as desolate and isolated as I thought - evidence of someone in the vicinity?

Think a separate post should be started regarding Tumanov's observations of Krivonischenko's wounds. I've always been sort of obsessed with the burns on the 2 Yuris. No record of burns on anyone else. This to me is a BIG clue - we should delve into it further.
Could they have simply fallen into the fire?
Were they so cold they stuck their limbs into the fire?
Did they even build the fire?
Did the burns have to do with their death?
Why is there the feeling these 2 died first and they are the only 2 burned?

Does anyone want to tackle this in a separate post?

April 16, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
Reply #8
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Nigel Evans


They seem to have attempted the original plan the day before of going through the actual pass but failed due to conditions. From memory a diary talks of being above the tree line. The failure is understandable as they were curiously poorly equipped for higher ground, no crampons and only Semyon had an ice axe. So it's plausible that they picked up some scratches in the attempt before giving up, descending and shedding weight with the labaz.

April 16, 2019, 09:35:40 AM
Reply #9

Clacon

Guest
Are we assuming because there are no diary entries passed the 31st that they must have died on the 1st or 2nd?

I mean, what if they died later (not too much later, just later enough that the bruising and wounds scabbing can be accounted for) but were too incapacitated to write in their diaries because they were taken hostage or were fighting to survive?


April 16, 2019, 10:10:55 AM
Reply #10
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tekumze


All Clacon questions are also my interest. And I agree with all his thoughts. So I do not have anything to add here. In order to answer these questions we need a new autopsy.
Mr. Tuman is a real person to re-conduct an autopsy of all corpses. Then the image of the case would be much clearer. But will this happen? This is the main question?

April 16, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
Reply #11
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Injuries and damage to clothing could also have been caused by some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
DB

May 01, 2019, 03:23:43 PM
Reply #12
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The altercation scenario fits with simple credible explanation.  It seems to me that the group were trying to get away from someone?  If they were running and hiding from someone then it's unlikely that the two Yuris would have lit a fire.  So who lit it?  The Yuris look like they claimed the cedar - maybe to stay out of reach of someone.

Regards

Star man

May 01, 2019, 07:27:47 PM
Reply #13
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
What if.....

Since there were other university student groups in the general area, they saw a fire in the woods from the tent and went to say hello to their buddies.  BAD IDEA
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 02, 2019, 02:35:45 PM
Reply #14

Clacon

Guest
I mean, if Igor was the one who was the threat, then maybe he died before the Yuri's started the fire....and....they couldn't find their way back to the tent??

But why not TRY to go back to the tent anyways to get the ice ax or clothes or whatever?

And I think they climbed the tree to try to find the tent, not because someone was after them (just sounds comical to me....you would only climb a tree to get away from something that couldn't climb a tree, wouldn't you?)
But...if Igor tried to climb the tree, he would have been kicked in the face by the Yuris (may be evidence of this, but maybe more severe than his reported injuries….unless he was going to burn them with a log from the fire that he would have had to wait a while to get lit....I don't know....they sat up in that tree all that time?? Waiting for Igor to get frozen stuff to burn while he was threatening to burn them out of the tree once he gets a log lit to poke them with?? I don't think this is very plausible....also how to explain the Yuri D's cinged hair? 

…..So the threat must have stayed at the tent....

Or Igor, Rustem and Zina were at the tent a while before coming down the slope and eventually perishing due to them fighting up at the tent???

…...Or the Yuris started the fire and then went up the tree when they heard someone approaching???


HEEEELLPPPPP!!!! BRAIN HURTY REAL BAD GOING DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE

May 02, 2019, 07:26:25 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
What proof is there that any of the 9 started the fire?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 03, 2019, 07:47:22 AM
Reply #16

Clacon

Guest
Are you saying someone other than the 9 started the fire?