November 16, 2019, 04:23:09 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Questions to WAB  (Read 1745 times)

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April 11, 2019, 03:15:38 PM
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WAB


Dear friends and colleagues!

At me some messages were gone because it is necessary long and answer difficultly at difficult formatting of texts. Besides, I have not time read and answer some messages which it is necessary answer, because here many the misunderstood text translations and the concepts caused by national features. If it is necessary answer I in this theme questions which are addressed me.
I have not time look through that some of you address to me in various themes. I ask me understand correctly, I write here only after difficult work at night, therefore very much I appreciate time. On the other hand I would like for you to help understand this case correctly. I have lot information for it.
If I correctly understand all it, I ask me questions here. I can find not enough time look through other sections. But I will try do it as soon as be it turn out.
To begin with I will place here 4 panoramas which I have received it in March of this year on place of events Dyatlov group.

 


 


 


 


Otorten mount.

April 12, 2019, 12:06:55 PM
Reply #1
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Ehtnisba


I saw this photo of the tent before the snow digging from it. Is it just me or the "snow" is really strange looking ,like ice. From your photos everything looks normal,but here it doesn't look natural at all. The snow looks pressed and then like water was spilled on top - the way they prepare ski pistes .

Also if you are familiar with snow formations and types of snow could you explain why there is kind of flat icy looking circle in these photos from 1959.










coinflip

April 12, 2019, 02:56:46 PM
Reply #2
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WAB


I saw this photo of the tent before the snow digging from it. Is it just me or the "snow" is really strange looking ,like ice. From your photos everything looks normal,but here it doesn't look natural at all. The snow looks pressed and then like water was spilled on top - the way they prepare ski pistes .

Anything strange in these kinds 1959 is not present. Snow looks very variously. Especially it concerns this place. The matter is that close (it is literally 1 … 2 km or nearby 1 mi) there is the uppermost part of the Ural ridge. It is border of division of two very different climatic zones: western (it is under the influence of a climate defined by a warm current Gulf Stream) and east (it is under the influence of a climate defined by a frigid climate of Arctic regions). Gulf Stream reaches islands New Lands and they block a way further for this current. The difference of temperatures on this borders reaches 10 degrees on Celsius. Therefore air which comes from the West much more damp. From the east cold weights from Arctic regions come. All it meets on a narrow strip to the east from a ridge of the Ural mountains. Therefore there blow very strong a wind. Snow very well absorbs a moisture of warmer air, therefore on sites of snow at this border the snow top often reminds an ice crust, but very thin. A variety of a kind of snow (it is well visible in different photos) become formed that, how much well snow is processed by a wind. And also that, how much damp air exists in this wind.
It is some different kinds of snow which were formed under the influence of different weather conditions. They is different, but well exist nearby, because there have different microrelief.
Hoarfrost on branches


Friable snow on thin crust of ice over snow layer


Local drifting snow on firm snow


The wind destroys friable snow under a firm ice crust


Slope general view as in 1959


Firm and friable snow nearby


Firm thin ice crust under the influence of a wind


So did snow forms cavities about rocks


Also if you are familiar with snow formations and types of snow could you explain why there is kind of flat icy looking circle in these photos from 1959.










coinflip


On photo 1959 view not the ice circle, it is the same snow which I have resulted as example above. It is the firm crust of taken by fresh snow that cold snow has absorbed moisture of warmer air. It is not necessary think that warm air it is obligatory above zero on Celsius, it can be and air with temperature -10C or-15C, but it contains much more moisture, than snow with temperature-20C or-25C.
The ice crust very thin and easily breaks feet. But sometimes it appears on the basis of firm thin crust of ice over snow (when the wind has preliminary blown off all friable snow) and then it very strong. All it can be and simultaneously, but in different places of slope.
And one more remark concerning perception of old photos. On them very often there is sharpness loss in image fine details. Therefore they can be perceived as monolithic structure though there it is lot of fine details which cannot be distinguished. It to concern cameras on narrow (35 mm width) film with old objectives which have been made of old glass and yet had no enlightenment film.

April 12, 2019, 10:22:56 PM
Reply #3
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Ehtnisba


Thank you very much. I think that photo represents the most what I was seeing in the photos from 1959



April 14, 2019, 12:41:45 PM
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WAB


Thank you very much. I think that photo represents the most what I was seeing in the photos from 1959



Such snow condition not the most unusual in that place. For example 200 m (650 ft) from it place where tent has been located saw here such condition of snow:
 


It is warm and strong wind (to =-5C … -7C or 20F … 25 F) so has processed cold snow (to =-18C … -20C or 0 F …-4 F) on  crest of spur little above tent place.

April 15, 2019, 04:22:58 PM
Reply #5
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Ehtnisba


This is the weirdest snow I have seen . Never seen it in nature in our mountains. Very unusual climate  for sure.

April 16, 2019, 01:53:58 AM
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Aspen


Thank you WAB for the photos and videos.  The best information.

The pile of shoes found in a corner of the Dyatlov tent is most baffling. Here are two questions:

1-  Did the Dyatlov tent have a floor?  In other words, was a tarp sewn all around the bottom of the tent?
2-  Did they have a rule about taking off all shoes and valenkis when in the tent?

When winter camping, I always bring a tent WITHOUT floor or bottom tarp, so there is no concern with tracking snow in and out of the tent.  When I remove my ski boots at camp for the night, I immediately put on my warm soft booties, and always keep these booties on until I go to bed, and even wear them on inside my sleeping bag if it's really cold.  I think most skiers do that when winter camping. 

But perhaps the Dyatlov group did those things differently?

I'm working on a theory, but first I need the above information. 


April 16, 2019, 05:59:50 AM
Reply #7

Clacon

Guest
I don't think they did have a bottom tarp - I think I remember reading somewhere they lined up their skis side by side as the floor base and then put backpacks on top of those?




April 16, 2019, 08:06:50 AM
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Morski


I don't think they did have a bottom tarp - I think I remember reading somewhere they lined up their skis side by side as the floor base and then put backpacks on top of those?

I think the tent had a floor, and they did put their skis under, but as a form of isolation between the snow and the canvas floor. I cant recall reading about the absence of it, but nor did I remember about the presence of canvas floor to be honest. It just makes more sense to have it, since you go on a trip like that. Lets see what WAB will say. He and his friend Shura made a replica of the tent, if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 08:11:20 AM by Морски »

April 16, 2019, 09:03:53 AM
Reply #9

Clacon

Guest
Sounds good :)

April 16, 2019, 12:36:38 PM
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WAB


This is the weirdest snow I have seen . Never seen it in nature in our mountains. Very unusual climate  for sure.

I am already wrote some times that it is feature this place because there faces two different weather regions. Warm and more damp wind from the West so processes cold snow after first cold weather which has come from the East (more precisely from the north, but to the East of Ural mountains) there will be established. Europe have not such climatic features.

April 16, 2019, 12:40:47 PM
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WAB


Thank you WAB for the photos and videos.  The best information.

The pile of shoes found in a corner of the Dyatlov tent is most baffling. Here are two questions:

1-  Did the Dyatlov tent have a floor?  In other words, was a tarp sewn all around the bottom of the tent?

Yes, it was. It were 2 sewed tents PT-4 (it is their mark). I will give the sizes and design as soon as I will find time find old pictures and write comments.

2-  Did they have a rule about taking off all shoes and valenkis when in the tent?

Yes. Otherwise feet cannot have rest. The thermal protection is provided with additional woollen socks and they very often thrust feet in empty backpack. So be "cocoon" which gave additional thermal protection was created.

When winter camping, I always bring a tent WITHOUT floor or bottom tarp, so there is no concern with tracking snow in and out of the tent.  When I remove my ski boots at camp for the night, I immediately put on my warm soft booties, and always keep these booties on until I go to bed, and even wear them on inside my sleeping bag if it's really cold.  I think most skiers do that when winter camping. 

Yes. At you all is correct. It is necessary consider that 60 years ago there were same receptions of use, but only equipment was worse in quality and many receptions of use equipment have just been mastered. Or have not been mastered yet absolutely …

But perhaps the Dyatlov group did those things differently?

No.

I'm working on a theory, but first I need the above information.

The course of your thoughts on construction of your theory it is very interesting to me. You could reflect the basic theses of your theory? Very short …

April 16, 2019, 12:41:23 PM
Reply #12
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WAB


I don't think they did have a bottom tarp - I think I remember reading somewhere they lined up their skis side by side as the floor base and then put backpacks on top of those?

Yes, it is correct.

April 16, 2019, 12:43:26 PM
Reply #13
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WAB


I don't think they did have a bottom tarp - I think I remember reading somewhere they lined up their skis side by side as the floor base and then put backpacks on top of those?

I think the tent had a floor, and they did put their skis under, but as a form of isolation between the snow and the canvas floor. I cant recall reading about the absence of it, but nor did I remember about the presence of canvas floor to be honest. It just makes more sense to have it, since you go on a trip like that. Lets see what WAB will say. He and his friend Shura made a replica of the tent, if I remember correctly.

Dear Morski!

I am very glad that you have again appeared here as "writer".  grin1
We did tent copy on those reconstruction which I have made still in 2006 when has found Boris Slobtsov and for the first time having published the text conversation with he, as with the participant of searches. In Russian it can be read by address http://perevaldyatlova.narod.ru/beseda_1.html . There are documents of that type of tent which was used by Dyatlov group, as half of tent. She has sewed them together and has made adaptations for oven suspension bracket. On it all distinctions come to end. The tent had constantly sewn bottom from canvas. Other tents, such sizes and type which could be used there in 1957 - 1959 were not. There were tents of type " jurt", but university UPI them did not use on not clear to me as reasons. They be more suitable to such travel which were at Dyatlov group and all travellers UPI.
I will try find pictures of this (same) tent for Clacon and then you are convinced that were completely right. Unfortunately draw them again very long, and I do not have enough time for conversations by Dyatlov group.

April 17, 2019, 02:40:16 AM
Reply #14
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Morski


Hello WAB!
Im still here, and I try to read as much as I can, but I do not write much. Good to have you and your experience here! It will be nice to see the pictures of the tent when you find time to look for them.
Привет из Болгарии!

April 17, 2019, 05:09:58 AM
Reply #15
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Aspen


Sorry WAB, but I cannot understand your answers.  Something got lost in translation. 

What I mean by “booties” (made of synthetic material, very warm & soft) they are the modern version of valenki.  So, I will only use the word ‘valenki’ from now on.

I am trying to understand why most of the Dyatlov group left their valenki in a pile in a corner of the tent.

It is my experience that skiers always remove their ski boots before entering the tent.  We wear valenki in the tent to rest feet and keep our feet warm during the evening while cooking dinner etc.  We remove valenki before getting in the sleeping bag for the night, and each person keeps their own valenki beside their bed.

Are you really saying that in the tent, the Dyatlov group always wore socks only?

I recall you said in some other post that it was minus 30 Celsius the night of February 1-2, 1959 at the Dyatlov Pass.  Personally, I cannot imagine staying in unheated tent at minus 20 or 30 degree Celsius without valenki while preparing and eating dinner during evening.  My feet would be frozen in about one hour or less sitting in such cold, if I only wore socks. 

Part of my theory is this:  during the evening of February 1 the Dyatlov group were eating dinner in the unheated tent, and they all wore their valenki because it was so cold.  Then something emitting some kind of radiation hovered above the tent.  They became very hot from the radiation (as in the Colares cases, see link below).

Those who were in the Dyatlov tent had gathered near the entrance and removed their valenki to try to cool off their feet, leaving the valenki in a pile near the entrance.  That didn’t help, so they had to quickly cut the tent to immediately escape the burning rays.  ( I will elaborate later. )

(The Colares (Brazil) cases were investigated by medical doctor, the military, and professional researcher.  These are credible and documented cases.  Some of the victims reported “intense heat” in their feet specifically.
More about Colares at this link:  https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/colares.htm#events )

April 17, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


Sorry WAB, but I cannot understand your answers.  Something got lost in translation. 

What I mean by “booties” (made of synthetic material, very warm & soft) they are the modern version of valenki.  So, I will only use the word ‘valenki’ from now on.

I am trying to understand why most of the Dyatlov group left their valenki in a pile in a corner of the tent.

It is my experience that skiers always remove their ski boots before entering the tent.  We wear valenki in the tent to rest feet and keep our feet warm during the evening while cooking dinner etc.  We remove valenki before getting in the sleeping bag for the night, and each person keeps their own valenki beside their bed.

Are you really saying that in the tent, the Dyatlov group always wore socks only?

I recall you said in some other post that it was minus 30 Celsius the night of February 1-2, 1959 at the Dyatlov Pass.  Personally, I cannot imagine staying in unheated tent at minus 20 or 30 degree Celsius without valenki while preparing and eating dinner during evening.  My feet would be frozen in about one hour or less sitting in such cold, if I only wore socks. 

Part of my theory is this:  during the evening of February 1 the Dyatlov group were eating dinner in the unheated tent, and they all wore their valenki because it was so cold.  Then something emitting some kind of radiation hovered above the tent.  They became very hot from the radiation (as in the Colares cases, see link below).

Those who were in the Dyatlov tent had gathered near the entrance and removed their valenki to try to cool off their feet, leaving the valenki in a pile near the entrance.  That didn’t help, so they had to quickly cut the tent to immediately escape the burning rays.  ( I will elaborate later. )

(The Colares (Brazil) cases were investigated by medical doctor, the military, and professional researcher.  These are credible and documented cases.  Some of the victims reported “intense heat” in their feet specifically.
More about Colares at this link:  https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/colares.htm#events )
Ivanov's fire orbs with heat rays strike again...

Some photos - https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/colarespics.htm#pics


April 28, 2019, 11:40:38 PM
Reply #17
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi WAB.

From previous discussions I believe your view is that the group split up on the slope at some point?

I am beginning to think the same thing.

I am interested to know why you think the evidence points to this conclusion?

I know you are a busy person so just feel free to answer when and if you have time.

Regards
Star man

May 12, 2019, 11:36:21 AM
Reply #18
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WAB


Sorry WAB, but I cannot understand your answers.  Something got lost in translation. 

It can be also because I sometimes too hasten with the answer. I am apologies.

What I mean by “booties” (made of synthetic material, very warm & soft) they are the modern version of valenki.  So, I will only use the word ‘valenki’ from now on.

I well understand about that you mean, when speak about "bootees". It is footwear for this purpose what to be in tent and it was possible to leave it for short time *).
However it is necessary to understand that it is footwear it is not intended what in it to sleep. For this reason I speak about some (the additional!) warm socks in which they slept. "Bootees", valenoks and other similar footwear (look *) it is necessary as replacement of the basic footwear (for a route running gear) and camp parking and in tent, except a case when in it sleep.
The running footwear is difficult for carrying constantly and she demands constant drying. All time is in it noncomfort, therefore it remove on parking.
Some people who have very soft and easy "bootees" I can sleep in them, but it is more exception, instead of a rule.
I can confidently tell that 2 or 3 steams woollen socks about  thermal protection are not worse at all than "bootees", but in them to sleep more comfortably: they are easier and warmer. Feet in them have a rest better.
Certainly in socks it is not necessary to leave tent. They can be wet quickly from snow and they will be not suitable for a dream. But so nobody assumed to do. That many participants of Dyatlov group were in socks on snow, it not a settlement case, and result of circumstances of this case.

I am trying to understand why most of the Dyatlov group left their valenki in a pile in a corner of the tent.

Valenoks do not take so much, how many happens participants of group. Them take less that it would be possible to leave their tents to any to whom there was such necessity. Therefore them take such size that all who has at present such requirement could use.
Therefore them remove for a dream and put in a place, whence they can take all for whom it is necessary. Certainly it not is all at once.
Valenoks are necessary to duty man if their running footwear demands drying. Or to whom that still, for carrying out of auxiliary works. + «valenoks for duty man» at night for an exit of their tent.
For this reason all basic valenoks have been combined in tent, and unique who was in valenoks - Nikolay Tibo - was the person on duty. He has been dressed how it is necessary for the person on duty at such parking. + two hours - one more sign of the person on duty. For this purpose, what to watch time if one hours stop

It is my experience that skiers always remove their ski boots before entering the tent.  We wear valenki in the tent to rest feet and keep our feet warm during the evening while cooking dinner etc.  We remove valenki before getting in the sleeping bag for the night, and each person keeps their own valenki beside their bed.

You say too most that I spoke just. But from us do not take valenoks for everyone because it is more difficult for transferring and the requirement for them is not always. If to use «the theory of schedules» it is possible even to find precisely exact optimum quantity of valenoks for group in concrete travel. The economy of weight and volume is characteristic for difficult travel.
In the rest at us in the same way as well as at you.

Are you really saying that in the tent, the Dyatlov group always wore socks only?

There is no I did not say that «socks only ». Above I have written those principles, which use for footwear of what to sleep in tent.

I recall you said in some other post that it was minus 30 Celsius the night of February 1-2, 1959 at the Dyatlov Pass.  Personally, I cannot imagine staying in unheated tent at minus 20 or 30 degree Celsius without valenki while preparing and eating dinner during evening.  My feet would be frozen in about one hour or less sitting in such cold, if I only wore socks. 

No, it was told not by me. I estimate temperature in the top part of  slope as-15C …-18C with an average on force wind, and below (at cedar) as-20C …-24C. It too «not so hot», but is much better than that you have resulted.
It is impossible to estimate conditions in the street equal to conditions in which "sleep" in tent. In tent create such conditions when concentrate a thermal protection and locally keep warmly special conditions. In extreme conditions it is impossible to create absolutely comfortable conditions, therefore create their "admissible" level. Good model of these conditions is the sleeping bag in frosty tent. But it is possible to create such «the sleeping unit» which will create conditions that it would be possible «to endure night». As it was in a case with this spending the night of Dyatlov group. They have specially established camp on this place and have simulated conditions which Igor Dyatlov had in 1958 in Subpolar Ural Mountains when went in Moisey Axelrod group. Then they went 3 days in such conditions what to incorporate to other part of group which have transported in other place. Dyatlov knew that in Subpolar Ural Mountains it is impossible to do without such spending the night and has decided to arrange group training in such conditions. Their group was going to travel further to such areas as Subpolar Ural Mountains. It the following step to their travel was false to be.
However all has gone at all how it planned, because the extraneous external natural factor which has not been connected with such spending the night has interfered. Therefore all has come to an end so is sad.
 Spending the night without tent heating is a normal course of actions on such travel. It is necessary to be only ready to them morally and with equipment. There is an extreme variant as was in this case. Here there was a problem to overstay night and to move further. Nobody was going to achieve the maximum comfort.
At us with Shura all spending the night was without tent heating. These are 5 times (2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2019) on 5 … 6 days. + almost all other winter travel to a current of the last 30 … 35 years, too were without tent heating. But they were in much more difficult and cold areas, than these Northern Ural Mountains. It is necessary to understand that at us the equipment was much better, than at Dyatlov group in 1959.

***************************************
Part of my theory is this:  during the evening of February 1 the Dyatlov group were eating dinner in the unheated tent, and they all wore their valenki because it was so cold.  Then something emitting some kind of radiation hovered above the tent.  They became very hot from the radiation (as in the Colares cases, see link below).

Those who were in the Dyatlov tent had gathered near the entrance and removed their valenki to try to cool off their feet, leaving the valenki in a pile near the entrance.  That didn’t help, so they had to quickly cut the tent to immediately escape the burning rays.  ( I will elaborate later. )

(The Colares (Brazil) cases were investigated by medical doctor, the military, and professional researcher.  These are credible and documented cases.  Some of the victims reported “intense heat” in their feet specifically.
More about Colares at this link:  https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/htm/colares.htm#events )

I cannot make comments that connected with UFO. Until it will be clear that such UFO and what properties it possesses. In other case of UFO it is fashionable attribute any properties, but from it will not be clearer that has occurred.

May 12, 2019, 11:44:55 AM
Reply #19
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WAB


Hi WAB.

From previous discussions I believe your view is that the group split up on the slope at some point?

Yes, I so believe. Because there is such concept as logic of actions. Whence follows that the next action can be executed, if there are all necessary and sufficient conditions. Presence of possibility and motivation of this action Is required. For example, if the group part is not together with the others then it is necessary not to think out a condition when who that there has moved them, and to analyze conditions why they could not get there before.
I consider that the group has broken up right after escape tents, and then could not incorporate because of conditions which were at that time.

I am beginning to think the same thing.

I am interested to know why you think the evidence points to this conclusion?

I have already told, in it specifies «the logician of actions» to each of group components. Still 60 years ago have thought up that the group part came back back to tent, but it does not correspond to that is found at them and does not correspond to possibilities of their behaviour in those conditions which were. It is necessary to compare a condition of weather and their clothes. Then it becomes clear that their  destruction was only a question of size of their time is in such conditions. Even the most approximate calculation gives that there were 2 zones where they could is: on the top part of a slope - there there was a wind nearby 10 … 15 m/s ( ... kn) at temperature-15C … -18С (... F), and the bottom part of a slope - there the wind practically was not, but the temperature was much more low or nearby-20S …-24C (... F). Both in that and in other case they had a deficiency of heat (the big losses of heat) nearby 250 ….400 Wt. It is a lot of if to consider that the person at rest can receive only 50 … 70 Wt of metabolic heat. It should fill the rest with movement or other physical activity. However long and continuously move the person cannot. He is tired. If it some time does not fill shortage of heat its muscles cannot work again. Therefore infinitely live they could not. Here it is necessary add and that as result es tents they were in a stressful condition that too does not give them possibility well to organise work on rescue.
Possibilities all to see audibility (has been limited by several tens metres, and especially at wind action) still in smaller distance.
Please combine these conditions that I spoke about «logic of actions» and you receive that, about what you think.

I know you are a busy person so just feel free to answer when and if you have time.

Regards
Star man

Dear Star Man, I is extremely afflicted by that I can not quickly answer always, but I ask me to understand correctly … Except difficult experiments at my university about the rocket technics (which many forces and time for considering of actions), I take away also I try to struggle with consequences of my old oncology. It is proceeds on 5th year, but it becomes easier in time not. Struggle proceeds with variable success I win it and I go to pass all happens on the contrary and I cannot even use superfluous time for this purpose what to write note to forum.
Therefore I am extremely grateful to you for patience and attention.
All that I can, I will try to answer quickly and if there will be delays, in advance I ask me to excuse.

May 13, 2019, 08:53:10 AM
Reply #20
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi WAB.

From previous discussions I believe your view is that the group split up on the slope at some point?

Yes, I so believe. Because there is such concept as logic of actions. Whence follows that the next action can be executed, if there are all necessary and sufficient conditions. Presence of possibility and motivation of this action Is required. For example, if the group part is not together with the others then it is necessary not to think out a condition when who that there has moved them, and to analyze conditions why they could not get there before.
I consider that the group has broken up right after escape tents, and then could not incorporate because of conditions which were at that time.

I am beginning to think the same thing.

I am interested to know why you think the evidence points to this conclusion?

I have already told, in it specifies «the logician of actions» to each of group components. Still 60 years ago have thought up that the group part came back back to tent, but it does not correspond to that is found at them and does not correspond to possibilities of their behaviour in those conditions which were. It is necessary to compare a condition of weather and their clothes. Then it becomes clear that their  destruction was only a question of size of their time is in such conditions. Even the most approximate calculation gives that there were 2 zones where they could is: on the top part of a slope - there there was a wind nearby 10 … 15 m/s ( ... kn) at temperature-15C … -18С (... F), and the bottom part of a slope - there the wind practically was not, but the temperature was much more low or nearby-20S …-24C (... F). Both in that and in other case they had a deficiency of heat (the big losses of heat) nearby 250 ….400 Wt. It is a lot of if to consider that the person at rest can receive only 50 … 70 Wt of metabolic heat. It should fill the rest with movement or other physical activity. However long and continuously move the person cannot. He is tired. If it some time does not fill shortage of heat its muscles cannot work again. Therefore infinitely live they could not. Here it is necessary add and that as result es tents they were in a stressful condition that too does not give them possibility well to organise work on rescue.
Possibilities all to see audibility (has been limited by several tens metres, and especially at wind action) still in smaller distance.
Please combine these conditions that I spoke about «logic of actions» and you receive that, about what you think.

I know you are a busy person so just feel free to answer when and if you have time.

Regards
Star man

Dear Star Man, I is extremely afflicted by that I can not quickly answer always, but I ask me to understand correctly … Except difficult experiments at my university about the rocket technics (which many forces and time for considering of actions), I take away also I try to struggle with consequences of my old oncology. It is proceeds on 5th year, but it becomes easier in time not. Struggle proceeds with variable success I win it and I go to pass all happens on the contrary and I cannot even use superfluous time for this purpose what to write note to forum.
Therefore I am extremely grateful to you for patience and attention.
All that I can, I will try to answer quickly and if there will be delays, in advance I ask me to excuse.

Thank you WAB.  I hope you’re historical oncology is resolved successfully.

Your analysis of the events makes sense and strengthens my opinion that the group separated as you describe.

Regards

Star man

May 13, 2019, 09:34:55 AM
Reply #21
Online

Nigel Evans


Best of luck with your oncology, i had a near miss with malignant melanoma about 10 years ago. It's a profound thing, your life could end soon because a small part of your body seeks to be immortal.

But regarding - "the group splitting up on the slope". I don't understand this, the ravine group had clothing from the 2 yuris at the cedar? They were just 75m apart?

May 13, 2019, 11:41:50 PM
Reply #22
Online

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hi Nigel,

The group split into possibly two smaller groups and the three individual on the slope.  That’s what we are referring to.

Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina may have wandered on the slope alone until the cold and exhaustion got to them.

There was contact between the group in the ravine and the group at the cedar but the Yuris were probably already dead when they were discovered by the ravine group.

Regards
Star man

May 15, 2019, 01:13:15 PM
Reply #23
Online

Nigel Evans


Hi Nigel,

The group split into possibly two smaller groups and the three individual on the slope.  That’s what we are referring to.

Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina may have wandered on the slope alone until the cold and exhaustion got to them.

There was contact between the group in the ravine and the group at the cedar but the Yuris were probably already dead when they were discovered by the ravine group.

Regards
Star man
I understand that if it was completely dark this is a possibility. However, Rustem died of internal bleeding which is the same cause as for Lyudmila and Semyon and not shared by Igor and Zinaida.



May 16, 2019, 12:06:46 PM
Reply #24
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WAB


Hello WAB!
Im still here, and I try to read as much as I can, but I do not write much. Good to have you and your experience here! It will be nice to see the pictures of the tent when you find time to look for them.

I am glad you read at this forum. Here the sober view on events is very necessary. Without imagination impurity.
Unfortunately I have seen not at once this your message.


Привет из Болгарии!

Спасибо за  добрые слова!

Благодаря добър слово.
Всичко хубаво!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 12:20:16 PM by WAB »

May 16, 2019, 12:09:48 PM
Reply #25
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WAB


But regarding - "the group splitting up on the slope". I don't understand this, the ravine group had clothing from the 2 yuris at the cedar? They were just 75m apart?

The leading role is executed here not by distances, and the factor of time and behaviour of all group up until that time. This 4 has come after 2 Jura were already dead. Their clothes could not help strongly already wounded 3 of 4. Especially it is necessary to consider that the group was in the stressful condition, strongly cooled and tired. Especially if to consider that by that moment when Kolevatov has gone to cedar, 3 from 4 have been already wounded. It was already one of all groups who could to operate as that.
The concept should be key for understanding this situation it is that all these groups (4 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1) operated separately, everyone operated independently. This process has been extended in time very considerably.

May 16, 2019, 12:11:35 PM
Reply #26
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WAB



The group split into possibly two smaller groups and the three individual on the slope.  That’s what we are referring to.

Dyatlov, Rustem and Zina may have wandered on the slope alone until the cold and exhaustion got to them.

There was contact between the group in the ravine and the group at the cedar but the Yuris were probably already dead when they were discovered by the ravine group.

Yes. It completely coincides with that that I wrote. It is possible to add that from last group (where were 4) one could operate only - Alexander Kolevatov. The others have been wounded and could not that that to do.

May 16, 2019, 12:15:54 PM
Reply #27
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WAB


I understand that if it was completely dark this is a possibility. However, Rustem died of internal bleeding which is the same cause as for Lyudmila and Semyon and not shared by Igor and Zinaida.

Darkness in this place exists as relative concept. On our supervision and experiments it became clear, what even at a cedar it was possible to see on distance 10 … 20 m (30 … 60 ft), but without what that of picture details. For example, the person of the person could not be learnt, but its contour was visible (more precisely to tell - differed) against white snow a little. Against dark trees or bushes it was not visible completely.
Fire light could be visible on distance ~ 50 m (150 ft), but only in direct visibility. However the lay of land did not allow see it in 90 % from all trajectories of movement of groups.
Whence you have received information about bleeding at Rustem? It is an internal hypostasis from blow and it in any way it was not visible, while coroner has not made opening. This direct consequence of its cranial trauma and is absolutely not equal to that was at Lyudmila and Simeon. There were very considerable and heavier damages. They were appreciable even visually at finding of bodies.

May 16, 2019, 01:43:27 PM
Reply #28
Online

Nigel Evans


I understand that if it was completely dark this is a possibility. However, Rustem died of internal bleeding which is the same cause as for Lyudmila and Semyon and not shared by Igor and Zinaida.

Darkness in this place exists as relative concept. On our supervision and experiments it became clear, what even at a cedar it was possible to see on distance 10 … 20 m (30 … 60 ft), but without what that of picture details. For example, the person of the person could not be learnt, but its contour was visible (more precisely to tell - differed) against white snow a little. Against dark trees or bushes it was not visible completely.
Fire light could be visible on distance ~ 50 m (150 ft), but only in direct visibility. However the lay of land did not allow see it in 90 % from all trajectories of movement of groups.
Whence you have received information about bleeding at Rustem? It is an internal hypostasis from blow and it in any way it was not visible, while coroner has not made opening. This direct consequence of its cranial trauma and is absolutely not equal to that was at Lyudmila and Simeon. There were very considerable and heavier damages. They were appreciable even visually at finding of bodies.


https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-95-103?rbid=17743


 "The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/. The pericardial sac contained 30 cm3 of bloody liquid."


Sounds like chest trauma similar to Lyudmila and Semyon?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:30:56 PM by Nigel Evans »

May 17, 2019, 03:24:35 AM
Reply #29
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Aspen


Thank you WAB for your answers.  Just one question now:

What do you think made the Dyatlov group walk away from their tent in the night, most without their warm clothes?