October 16, 2019, 06:25:11 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation  (Read 8962 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

April 17, 2019, 02:41:05 PM
Reply #30
Offline

tekumze


Few lightning balls, injury bigger and smaller, panic of not understanding natural force, fear of unknow, wrong conclusion due very cold weather, time running out, less and less stamina, subcooling... and this is the end...

April 17, 2019, 02:44:44 PM
Reply #31
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Ok, what about this as an option:

Tensions have been rising in the group for some time.  Not everyone is working as hard as they are expected to.  They are tired, cold.  Tempers are close to the surface.  Some of the group start to drink alcohol, (or not, its not critical to the scanario).

Dyatlov writes the evening Otorten and some take offence that they are being joked about.  The alcohol fuels this more and a fight breaks out.  The fight spills out into the snow outside the tent.  One or more of the group run off into the night down the slope.  Others give chase.  It's dark and easy to become lost?  It's also hazardous and easy to slip and fall.  On the slope people become separated Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem wander around by themselves trying to find others until the cold stops them.  The two Yuris find the cedar and build the fire.  The rav four head down the slope and Luda Semyon and Thibo fall off a ridge and sustain their injuries.  Kolevatov carries them to the ravine, he goes to the cedar for help but the twomYuris are already dead.  He takes their clothes and some fir saplings to build a bed off the snow.  He places the injured on the bed of branches but his own strength leaves him and he dies.

Regards

Star man

April 17, 2019, 02:57:58 PM
Reply #32

Clacon

Guest
Hi Star man. With response to your initial question particularly:

"Is it possible to break down the various events of the DPI into discrete questions and then try to indentify the most simple credible explanation for each question without introducing additional external factors?  In other words assume the following as fact:
The only people on Kholat Syakhl on 1st Feb 1959 were the Dyatlov group"....

I feel like that is maybe one of the integral ideas we CAN'T assume as fact, because if we do, and we take away all others like aliens, animals, military involvement etc., then the Dyatlov group are themselves responsible for their own deaths, either by accident (this could include misadventure) or murder.

Unless that's where you're going with this. :) And I think a lot of people maybe don't want to accept that that is what happened.

If it IS what happened, there is still a compelling mystery there, because the circumstances really are quite bizarre, especially if we're looking at the injuries, particularly those of the Rav 4.
But all else taken away, I would say the simplest possible credible explanation for their injuries is a fall (sorry Nigel - here Military tracked vehicle is not an option :)))

My other point is that they weren't the only people in the area - I mean sure, no one else that we know of was ON the east shoulder of Kholat Syakhl, but there were other people around (other hikers, a supposed hunter, Mansi, even if they were some distance away). I really think that this can't be ignored. Perhaps then , the injuries to the Rav 4 become more credible, IF the simplest possible credible explanation is excluding dissonance within the group (some people insist there was) or an accident; which actually could be the simplest credible explanation excluding the fact that there were people other than the 9 involved.  twitch7

But, if other regular humans are out of the equation like monsters, aliens and the military, then the Dyatlov group are responsible for their own deaths. Simplest Possible Credible Explanation.




April 17, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Reply #33
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Why did they leave the tent and camp?

The fact that most of them left without their shoes suggests that there was some kind of immediate and significant threat to life?

Or could there have been a perception of an immediate threat to life?

Or they left because they had somehow become intoxicated/drugged and lost their senses?

Or they left knowing what they were doing as some kind of prank or test?  Maybe it was a survival test to go to the tree line and back without their gear?

Or maybe there was some kind of victimisation and bullying with one or more group members and that person lost it and ran into the night without their gear and the rest went after them immediately and before they realised they were all in trouble.

Or maybe for some reason one of the group attacked them with a knife threatening to kill them and they all scattered in different directions?

Any thoughts?

Regards
Star man

Yes My thoughts are this. We are dealing with all these points throughout the Forum. You have introduced them again here  !  ? 
DB

April 17, 2019, 03:07:00 PM
Reply #34
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So the point of this thread is to try to establish if there could be a simple “normal “ explanation by considering any simple options.

I am not trying to rule out other theories which are well represented in other threads. But is it possible to explain DPI using simple explanations? The interesting bit is if an exhaustive consideration of simple options there isn’t any that can explain it, or at least no simple explanation that is credible.

So- is there a simple explanation for why they might have left the tent with no footwear (other than Semyon, Thibo and Rustems single boot)?

Regards
Star man

Unfortunately there are no simple options.
DB

April 17, 2019, 03:22:44 PM
Reply #35

Clacon

Guest
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

April 17, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
Reply #36
Online

gypsy


If we are discussing simple explanations and motives, when it comes to unvoluntary deaths, statistically the most likely options involve money (highly unlikely in this case) or love affair. There could have been some twisted stuff going on until somebody got angry...Given the profiles of the hikers and life stories, I would not be surprised if Semyon an Tibo were a gay couple, the others saw them doing some funny stuff so the two decided to play a revenge prank on them and things got nasty, who knows....Other version may include any of the girls and more than one man who fancied them.

Please bear in mind that it is a far-fetched speculation at best.

April 17, 2019, 06:22:26 PM
Reply #37
Offline

Marchesk


As goes the DP case, nothing is simple.  Most of them were actually dressed quite warm, minus two individuals that had their clothing salvaged.  For instance, several had on their valenki boots which would be the warmest footwear they had.  Their valenki boots were fur-lined wool that was dry compared to their single layer leather boots that were soaked to the bone.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Makes me wonder how Zina could have succumbed to hypothermia. Slobodin may have passed out because of his head injury and then froze to death. But Zina doesn't have an injury that would explain why she fell where she did. There doesn't seem to be consistent reports about the weather that night. How cold would it have to be for some of the better dressed ones like Zina to die of hypothermia that night?

There's so much in this case that makes me scratch my head.

April 17, 2019, 06:28:40 PM
Reply #38
Offline

Marchesk


I don't think an in-group fight would explain all of them perishing. Why would they all leave the tent in the situation? Why wouldn't cooler heads break up the fight? Why wouldn't they return to the tent? If the conditions that night were bad enough outside that returning to the tent was an impossibility, then having a serious brawl without it cooler heads prevailing makes no sense.

And we don't have any evidence that they were on the verge or murdering one another over some resentment or love interest. That's pretty extreme.

April 17, 2019, 11:50:34 PM
Reply #39
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

April 18, 2019, 07:43:37 AM
Reply #40

Clacon

Guest
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

April 18, 2019, 07:52:16 AM
Reply #41
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 18, 2019, 08:27:16 AM
Reply #42
Offline

Marchesk


Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

The cooler heads would be the ones not involved in the fight. So if you have nine people and two or three start fighting, then it's the other six breaking it up and telling them to calm down. Even if the fight spilled outside of the tent, I just don't see how all nine of them end up outside of the tent hundreds of meters away. That would require an all out battle where different sides form into groups chasing one another down the mountain side in the cold, windy, rock strewn darkness, during the middle of meal right after they composed a fun pamphlet. That would have been one hell of a fight! Like a Game of Thrones throw down if you stuck some random Lannisters, Starks and Dothraki in a tent together, and on group starting insulting the other two.

As for Zina's injury, I'm not aware that it would have caused any brain, spinal cord damage, or blood loss. At least the coroner didn't think so.

April 18, 2019, 09:53:43 AM
Reply #43

Clacon

Guest
I enjoy your comments Loose Cannon. Lol. Its true, the Devil (or "Superman") is in the details. And I've always been a stickler for them. Sometimes I should just resign myself to the "KISS" philosophy on life, right?

I was simply being speculative about the "cool heads" based on personalities of the 9 - and am very interested in the opinions of others on this forum, especially regarding the "human factors" of the case, i.e. the psychology of it as well as the relationships between them. I like to see where the majority lies on topics, analyzing "trends" especially amongst the experts here.

For example,  Rustem and Zina seem to be peacekeepers in my mind. I wonder what everyone else thinks? Is it a coincidence they were found dead so close together? Is it a coincidence Zina and Igor were found close together and that Igor had a picture of her on him?

I don't think six people broke up the possible fight. I think we're at least minus 2 from the get go.

I'm not saying the bruise caused Zina to die, it simply contributed to incapacitation and thus hypothermia.
"In the lumbar region of the right lateral surface of the trunk, right side of the abdomen, a skin of bright red color in the form of a strip measuring 29 x 6 cm".
That's pretty sizeable. Could it not have winded her?

April 18, 2019, 10:57:10 AM
Reply #44
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
Igor had a picture of her on him?

If I recall correctly, the picture was found either in his coat, or in his trousers back at the tent and not on his persons.  Makes no difference really.... 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 18, 2019, 12:49:06 PM
Reply #45
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

April 18, 2019, 12:50:14 PM
Reply #46
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1

Yeah I think it's worth exploring further.

Regards
Star man

April 18, 2019, 01:05:51 PM
Reply #47

Clacon

Guest
Sweet validation!! Lol. Thank you Star Man - you're the peace-keeper in this forum.

I do look forward to your post.

April 18, 2019, 01:22:37 PM
Reply #48
Online

gypsy


Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

I agree the psychological review of the group could give us more understanding of what may have happened. One of the interesting aspects (for me) of the case is the internal divide of the group. It happened eventually due to still unknown reasons.  Even from the photos it seems that Tibo and Semyon were more extroverted and more easy-going with the girls... I wonder how an official group leader Igor would react to a new person with more experience and (possibly) more popularity...or would it trigger a little of envy and jealousy? It may seem like an unimportant thing, but in stressed situations the emotions tend to overcome the rationality (there might be exception of course - very calm people, psychopaths, trained soldiers...) Maybe the dispersion of the corpses somehow reflects the relationships inside the group. Also, I would assume that a reaction of 22 y.o. student to a life-threatening situation would be different to a war veteran (Semyon). 

Any further thoughts?

April 18, 2019, 03:39:31 PM
Reply #49
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

No evidence of any of the Dyatlov Group being DRUNK and DISORDERLY. And they were not KIDS.
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:41:51 PM
Reply #50
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If we are discussing simple explanations and motives, when it comes to unvoluntary deaths, statistically the most likely options involve money (highly unlikely in this case) or love affair. There could have been some twisted stuff going on until somebody got angry...Given the profiles of the hikers and life stories, I would not be surprised if Semyon an Tibo were a gay couple, the others saw them doing some funny stuff so the two decided to play a revenge prank on them and things got nasty, who knows....Other version may include any of the girls and more than one man who fancied them.

Please bear in mind that it is a far-fetched speculation at best.

This doesnt sound very simple. But its certainly extremely far fetched.
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:45:12 PM
Reply #51
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ? 
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:47:20 PM
Reply #52
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

So you know what the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ? 
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:51:27 PM
Reply #53
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1

I would say totally inplausible.  There is nothing in any of the findings of the search parties that lead one to suspect any fighting amongst the Dyatlov Group. And some of the injuries are like MUTILATIONS not caused by any other human, etc etc.
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:56:32 PM
Reply #54
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I enjoy your comments Loose Cannon. Lol. Its true, the Devil (or "Superman") is in the details. And I've always been a stickler for them. Sometimes I should just resign myself to the "KISS" philosophy on life, right?

I was simply being speculative about the "cool heads" based on personalities of the 9 - and am very interested in the opinions of others on this forum, especially regarding the "human factors" of the case, i.e. the psychology of it as well as the relationships between them. I like to see where the majority lies on topics, analyzing "trends" especially amongst the experts here.

For example,  Rustem and Zina seem to be peacekeepers in my mind. I wonder what everyone else thinks? Is it a coincidence they were found dead so close together? Is it a coincidence Zina and Igor were found close together and that Igor had a picture of her on him?

I don't think six people broke up the possible fight. I think we're at least minus 2 from the get go.

I'm not saying the bruise caused Zina to die, it simply contributed to incapacitation and thus hypothermia.
"In the lumbar region of the right lateral surface of the trunk, right side of the abdomen, a skin of bright red color in the form of a strip measuring 29 x 6 cm".
That's pretty sizeable. Could it not have winded her?

You did read all the Autopsy reports presumably. And Dubinina's injuries could not have been caused by another human. Nothing shouts out fight about this Dyatlov Case.
DB

April 18, 2019, 03:59:45 PM
Reply #55
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

I agree the psychological review of the group could give us more understanding of what may have happened. One of the interesting aspects (for me) of the case is the internal divide of the group. It happened eventually due to still unknown reasons.  Even from the photos it seems that Tibo and Semyon were more extroverted and more easy-going with the girls... I wonder how an official group leader Igor would react to a new person with more experience and (possibly) more popularity...or would it trigger a little of envy and jealousy? It may seem like an unimportant thing, but in stressed situations the emotions tend to overcome the rationality (there might be exception of course - very calm people, psychopaths, trained soldiers...) Maybe the dispersion of the corpses somehow reflects the relationships inside the group. Also, I would assume that a reaction of 22 y.o. student to a life-threatening situation would be different to a war veteran (Semyon). 

Any further thoughts?

The Dyatlov Group were mature people and experienced outdoors people all of sound mind.  There is absolutely no evidence of any friction between them or of any fighting.
DB

April 18, 2019, 04:07:13 PM
Reply #56
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

I agree the psychological review of the group could give us more understanding of what may have happened. One of the interesting aspects (for me) of the case is the internal divide of the group. It happened eventually due to still unknown reasons.  Even from the photos it seems that Tibo and Semyon were more extroverted and more easy-going with the girls... I wonder how an official group leader Igor would react to a new person with more experience and (possibly) more popularity...or would it trigger a little of envy and jealousy? It may seem like an unimportant thing, but in stressed situations the emotions tend to overcome the rationality (there might be exception of course - very calm people, psychopaths, trained soldiers...) Maybe the dispersion of the corpses somehow reflects the relationships inside the group. Also, I would assume that a reaction of 22 y.o. student to a life-threatening situation would be different to a war veteran (Semyon). 

Any further thoughts?

I think you raise some good points.   I don't profess to be an expert on psychology, but I have some experience of group dynamics, teams and emotional intelligence.  I also have some experience of the psychological factors that affect risk perception and some of these are relevant to group dynamics.

N
Anyway, My first impression is that Semyon and Thibo are similar too.  Don't know why, but I make the same conclusion and they are found together in the same group (rav 4).

So what are the different character types present:

Natural Leaders, alphas? Vs appointed leader
Extroverts and big Egos
Introverts and those happy to sit back and be led by others
Experience vs inexperience
Controlling personalities
Rule keepers and rule breakers
Victims

I am sure there are more types.  Please feel free to add.  Like I said I'm not an expert so feel free to pile in.

Within a group there will be natural leaders.  Dyatlov may have been one of these, but also he is young and less experienced, and if he has affections for Zina this will affect his natural behaviour and possibly his judgement.  There is evidence of this in Zina's diary where she says he his rude and she doesn't recognise him.  This isn't good.  Is he keeping his mind on the job or is he distracted and trying to impress?  People in this frame of mind are more likely to take greater risks.

Semyon is older.  He is also a leader, but with more experience and less testosterone.  He will likely have a cool head, but he may find it difficult to take orders from Dyatlov.  So I think there would be a natural rift there.  Semyon also seems like someone who has confidence and likes to have fun.  Which is why I think he is a natural fit with Thibo who appears to have a similar affinity for fun and joking.  I don't think Thibo stands out as wanting to lead the group though.

Rustem seems quieter and more introvert, but seems confident.  I think he is happy to follow and go along with rest, but will join in the fun up to a point.  He seems a bit more serious.

Kolevatov, seems quiet and confident, but resourceful.  He doesn't seem the type to join in too much fun. I think he seems quite a serious person.

Yuris K - he is young and intelligent, but smaller and in my mind could easily be targeted as the victim of the group.  In other words an easy target for jokes, larks and pranks.

Luda is quiet, composed and from what I have read quick tongued.  She also tires easily and from the diaries I get the impression this angers some members of the group as she does not help with all the tasks.

Zina, like Luda is quiet and composed. 

I think given that the two girls are among 7 males and it's 1959, they would probably take on a more sensible and quiter role within the group.  Probably more peace keepers, using Clacon's words.

Yuris D is a big fellow, but probably quiet and calm and I suspect he has a strong sense of purpose.  He is unlikely the sort to be intimidated by others and may even take on the role of protector.  He may have decided to take Yuris K under his wing.

So I have just basically brain dumped my thoughts there and immediately there is an interesting pattern:

Semyon is older, wiser and calming.  The two girls will be sensible and peace keepers.  Kolevatove is quiet, confident and less of a joker ( I.e more sensible).  There is a natural group there I think.  Rustem could probably fit into this group too.  Thibo isn't such a natural fit, but may be closer to Semyon so would tag along with him.

There is also a potential group with Dyatlov and Zina given their potential relationship?

Those in opposition:

Dyatlov vs Semyon and Kolevatov

So I think the group were far from harmonious.  It might only take one step too far to cause a fracture and a fight.

In the evening Otorten, there is an entry about an Armenian Quiz.  Can 9 hikers survive with two blankets or words to that effect.  What if that was a reference to some prank they were playing?  Maybe they kicked Yuris K out if the tent without any decent clothing.  Intended as a joke for a short time, but when they go to let him back in he has gone.  The jokes have gone too far.  Something has snapped.  He walks down the slope and intends to light a fire.  When they the others realise he is nowhere to be found the race off down the slop searching for him.  They know he is going to be in trouble if he doesn't return to the tent quickly. The reaming group argue and fight.  Then finding their senses they split up to look for him.  Then the rav 4 have the accident, and the rest is history. 

Still difficult to explain the shoes though?

Happy to listen to other thoughts.

Regards

Star man







April 18, 2019, 04:10:33 PM
Reply #57
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

I agree the psychological review of the group could give us more understanding of what may have happened. One of the interesting aspects (for me) of the case is the internal divide of the group. It happened eventually due to still unknown reasons.  Even from the photos it seems that Tibo and Semyon were more extroverted and more easy-going with the girls... I wonder how an official group leader Igor would react to a new person with more experience and (possibly) more popularity...or would it trigger a little of envy and jealousy? It may seem like an unimportant thing, but in stressed situations the emotions tend to overcome the rationality (there might be exception of course - very calm people, psychopaths, trained soldiers...) Maybe the dispersion of the corpses somehow reflects the relationships inside the group. Also, I would assume that a reaction of 22 y.o. student to a life-threatening situation would be different to a war veteran (Semyon). 

Any further thoughts?

The Dyatlov Group were mature people and experienced outdoors people all of sound mind.  There is absolutely no evidence of any friction between them or of any fighting.

I disagree.  There is plenty of evidence of friction in the diaries.

Regards

Star man

April 18, 2019, 04:22:36 PM
Reply #58
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

April 18, 2019, 04:45:11 PM
Reply #59
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1

I would say totally inplausible.  There is nothing in any of the findings of the search parties that lead one to suspect any fighting amongst the Dyatlov Group. And some of the injuries are like MUTILATIONS not caused by any other human, etc etc.


No mutilations, sorry. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!