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Author Topic: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation  (Read 7594 times)

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April 18, 2019, 04:45:45 PM
Reply #60
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Reiterating ad nauseum here but to start: if the Dyatlov group were responsible for their own demise, it was accidental. I DON'T think anyone set out that night with the intent to kill anyone else. However, infighting and a physical brawl between some members for me, for sure is a possibility. This could have led to incapacitation, which led to death by exposure. If they hadn't been in the environment they were in....they probably would have survived.

That being said....if they were responsible for their deaths, without any external factors, we must look to basic human psychology and what could motivate someone to break social norms (i.e. the Simplest Possible Credible Psychological Explanation). The same is the motivation for killing another human being and here gypsy is correct: they can all be boiled down to 3 motivations:

1) greed
2) lust/love
3) pursuit of power or control

We have at least 2 and 3 brewing in this situation, as robbery (greed) is not likely.

Of course, we have to remember that individuals are so complex, this may be oversimplification, but I feel like this thread has an Occam's Razor feel to it - the simplest, most basic explanation is often the most correct.

So we take into consideration the fact that tensions are high. How could they not be, they have been out in the frigid wilderness on their own for 4 days (?), cold, dirty, irritable....the trail they are on along the river is impossible to follow  - there is evidence in diaries of squabbling - we can see a division between personalities. Perhaps add in alcohol and the fact that "needs" other than shelter and food (which are scant),  are not being met (possible human motivation #2), competition for control over a tenuous situation (#3) and I would say you have a recipe for a fight.

Marchesk - no I don't think this explanation is a contributor to ALL of their deaths, especially the Rav 4, but it could at least be the explanation as to why they were there in the first place. I don't think they all left the tent at the same time. And perhaps that's why, the "cooler heads" were not around to stop the fight?

Interesting side note - I do wonder who those "cooler heads" would have been?

The biggest question here (and a point you have brought up before which sticks me every time is) why did they not return to the tent in as short a time as they could have?? (If they could have)???

I would also consider that huge bruise on Zina's side as a possible contributing factor to her death maybe??

I like your analysis.  I think it is worth exploring the psychology of the group.  Natural alliances.  What cliques are there?

Will post again soon.

Regards

Star man

I agree the psychological review of the group could give us more understanding of what may have happened. One of the interesting aspects (for me) of the case is the internal divide of the group. It happened eventually due to still unknown reasons.  Even from the photos it seems that Tibo and Semyon were more extroverted and more easy-going with the girls... I wonder how an official group leader Igor would react to a new person with more experience and (possibly) more popularity...or would it trigger a little of envy and jealousy? It may seem like an unimportant thing, but in stressed situations the emotions tend to overcome the rationality (there might be exception of course - very calm people, psychopaths, trained soldiers...) Maybe the dispersion of the corpses somehow reflects the relationships inside the group. Also, I would assume that a reaction of 22 y.o. student to a life-threatening situation would be different to a war veteran (Semyon). 

Any further thoughts?

The Dyatlov Group were mature people and experienced outdoors people all of sound mind.  There is absolutely no evidence of any friction between them or of any fighting.

Completely implausible and close minded. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 19, 2019, 04:08:27 AM
Reply #61
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Aspen


Here is my two cents:  the simplest credible explanation must take the context and important established facts into account.

First, about the diaries, I don’t see any real demonstration in the diaries of strong hatred towards anyone.  These were young people.  Youth often express themselves with exaggerated banter and playful dramatization.  The satirical Otorten document is an example of that.  I don’t recall the mention of “traitors”.  But if there is, it could be interpreted as a joke.  Who hasn’t been with friends where a lot of dramatized cursing and ranting is made following some kind of mishap, as a way of making harmless fun of the situation. 

The photos with the burned jacket are obviously posed with a humoristic intent.  There are so many photos of them laughing and smiling…  If any serious friction arose, I think these educated young people would have the social skills to turn it into something funny and to keep the peace in a situation where they utterly depended on each other.

Now about the context on the night of February 1, they must have been exhausted after skiing up there and all the work required to dig up the platform and set up the tent in a storm.  They were camping without heat on an open and isolated mountain ridge in a stormy night, it was really dark, zero visibility, and very cold at minus 30 Celsius. 

Those of you who have done this kind of winter camping would know that you don’t have the energy to pick up fights in such situation.  Most importantly, you are intensely aware at all times that your survival depends on group cooperation and cohesion.  So you let frictions slide.  Nobody would run out of the tent without shoes or gloves and blindly walk for a mile in the cold dark storm because of some bickering. 

Besides all that, they had a common goal: to get their class 3 certification.  That was important to them, and they wouldn’t blow that away with fighting that would put everybody’s life at risk.  If a major disappointment arose for someone during that excursion, they would certainly think it better to deal with their opponent or lost love after the excursion ended.  After all they were in this for only 2 or 3 weeks.  That is not enough time for developing uncontrollably strong hatred against anyone.

The facts are that their tracks show they did not run away from the tent, but they walked besides each other.  That means they all had to have left the tent at the same time.  And that they counted on each other for support, physically and/or morally.  They probably were injured to some extent at the tent site, which is why they left it, and had to slowly walk away.

Other facts that must be accounted for, is that other witnesses observed strange lights in the area at the time, some radioactivity was detected on the victims, and the investigators were ordered to stop the investigation without explanation and evidence was taken away by higher authorities.

Some of Dyatlov group injuries could be the result of breaking firewood and digging a snow den with bare hands.  I often am surprised when I go firewood cutting as to how many bruises and scratches I end up with.  I can’t imagine how hard it would have been for the Dyatlov group to try to find sparse firewood in the dark, branches poking you in the face, without tools, freezing bare hands, etc.  Some of the saplings they broke for the den looked to be 6 cm or two inches thick.  I am amazed they were able to break that, I know how difficult it can be.  It could well be that the large bruise on Zina’s back was the result of such work, as when trying to break those larger saplings if your grasp slips they bounce back and hit you hard.

Some would have been more injured by the event at the tent, than others, especially the two Yuris who apparently died first.  It could be that the other 7 then went on to dig the den, which collapsed on 4 of them.   Zina, Rustic and Igor tried to dig them out, but were unable to because collapsed snow hardens quickly.  Their only remaining hope for digging out their friends was to go back to the tent to retrieve the ice axe.  But they were too exhausted and cold to make it.   In my opinion the entire group remained together as much as they could to the end, their main desire was to save each other.

April 19, 2019, 06:03:39 AM
Reply #62
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Marchesk


Some would have been more injured by the event at the tent, than others, especially the two Yuris who apparently died first.  It could be that the other 7 then went on to dig the den, which collapsed on 4 of them.   Zina, Rustic and Igor tried to dig them out, but were unable to because collapsed snow hardens quickly.  Their only remaining hope for digging out their friends was to go back to the tent to retrieve the ice axe.  But they were too exhausted and cold to make it.   In my opinion the entire group remained together as much as they could to the end, their main desire was to save each other.

I hadn't thought of that as the reason for Zina, Rustem and Igor heading back to the tent. But that makes sense because of the desperation of trying to save their friends, and it doesn't require going back into the tent, which they abandoned for whatever reason. Going back for the ice axe makes a lot of sense. But then, why didn't they just take it with them if they knew they had to survive the night in the woods?

The fundamental mystery of what happened at the tent remains. But I agree with you, a fight amongst the group just doesn't add up to them abandoning the tent in such conditions.

April 19, 2019, 07:45:20 AM
Reply #63
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cennetkusu


The most likely scenario for young people to escape from the tent is fear. But this is a great fear. Teenagers must have heard some weird terrible sounds first. Then they made cuts in the tent to see the source of these sounds !!! They all looked at the source of these sounds with horror. 9 people settled in 4 meters. A total of 4.5 meters each from 50cm. They've watched out in a cramped state !!! In the meantime, while the boots should have been marshalled in regular order ....In the meantime, the bots must have been crushed. The boots are on the left side of the tent ... on the side of the cuts ...Meanwhile, young people may have seen some terrible images. That's why they wanted to cut the tent and escape from the horror and horror. And they decided to go back to the cedar tree and not return the fire for a long time. Because they were gonna die from the cold. But before returning to the cedar, they wanted to make sure that the horrible images had gone away. And when they didn't see anything, they decided to go back. But when the group split, superman attacked them. Igor Rustem Zina 2 Yuri Kolevatov Semyon Tibo and finally Dubinina .....Important note: The reason why they go to the tree and look at the tent should be: Terrible images must be very close to the tent. It would be pointless if they came to the tree. Without looking at the tree to the side of the tent to see whether the images.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 08:36:18 AM by cennetkusu »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 19, 2019, 09:06:20 AM
Reply #64
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Morski


Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1

I would say totally inplausible.  There is nothing in any of the findings of the search parties that lead one to suspect any fighting amongst the Dyatlov Group. And some of the injuries are like MUTILATIONS not caused by any other human, etc etc.

And the reason, of course, is Yeti, no?  whist1

April 19, 2019, 09:25:05 AM
Reply #65
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cennetkusu


There was no possible attack in the tent. If there was a direct attack, the youngsters would never return to the tent again. But they showed great courage and tried to return to the tent. Breaking 5-6 cm tree branches at minus 20 degrees is not a normal person's work. The explanation for this is that in moments of fear and terror, people get 2-3 times more powerful. Semyon predicted the events of Tibo and Rüstem without escaping the tent. And they tried to wear their clothes and boots.
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 20, 2019, 03:07:51 AM
Reply #66
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Aspen


Marchesk asked above:
"Going back for the ice axe makes a lot of sense. But then, why didn't they just take it with them if they knew they had to survive the night in the woods?"

Obviously they didn’t take anything with them when they fled the tent. 
I believe that something hovered above the tent emitting some kind of radiation that caused burns, and impaired the group mentally and physically to various degrees for each of them.  Perhaps they didn’t grab their warm clothes on the way out because they felt overheated from the radiation, which lasted while they walked down the hill.  Perhaps their metal tools were too hot to touch from the radiation, so that could explain why they discarded them at the tent.

Perhaps some of them had been blinded by the rays, which would be another reason why their friends walked by their side, perhaps holding hands.  So, this was not really a ‘calm and orderly’ walk down the hill.  Although terrified, this group was slowed by injuries and impaired faculties and had to support each other.  They regained their ability to think more clearly once they were out of range of the radiation.

Why is it that out of the ravine 4 victims, 3 of them seem to be missing their eyes, except for Tibo.  Although Tibo’s face was also in the water, it appears that he still has his eyelids and eyes on the post-mortem photo.  It may be that the other 3 received radiation injuries to their eyes or eyelids, and these damaged tissues desintegrated faster.

I also wonder about Zina’s position when she died.  It was not a completely a fetal position on her side.  In fact, her torso is twisted so that her face is down in the snow, as if in her last moment she was trying to protect her face.  Perhaps she realized that the ‘thing’ was still hovering in the area.

Igor in his last moment seemed to be in a defensive position, with his arms raised across his chest.

April 21, 2019, 06:00:22 PM
Reply #67
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Jacques-Emile


All I read is though creative writing group is given a 20-word start to a fiction story, and write an ending.  There sounds like no evidence needed to end everyone's story, that is everybody is as correct as every other.  People just won't admit that they are writing fiction.
I think there was a hovering metal object with a bright ray of VISIBLE light and loud AUDIBLE sound with deavening noise.  The people came out from planet Игорьcикорский whose people built devil killing hovering craft which sped off later.  Yes you can read about these ships called from Сикорскийвертолет.
All is out.

April 22, 2019, 02:11:41 AM
Reply #68
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

Regards

Star man

April 22, 2019, 11:43:29 AM
Reply #69
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Marchesk


If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

If you can discount any other natural explanations, the stove, ethanol poisoning and something nobody's thought of. But this is assuming we really can exclude avalanche/snow slab, military accident and outside involvement, which I don't think we can.

In my view, the evidence is simply inconclusive. It doesn't rule in favor of any one theory, nor does it rule out most theories. A lot of the evidence can be questioned or interpreted in different ways depending on which theory you favor.

But sure, if we could exclude all the others, then an internal dispute is all we're left with. I just have a hard time believing they all leave the tent over a fight and end up down slope, unable to make their way back.

April 22, 2019, 12:48:26 PM
Reply #70

Clacon

Guest
It depends if you believe they exited the tent at the same time...and I suppose that there is evidence that at least 2 were better clothed and so possibly were not in the tent when the "incident that drove them from the tent" occurred?

Also, I think Star Man had implied that maybe one or two had gone off in a huff - which may be possible within this infighting scenario too, right?

April 22, 2019, 02:45:33 PM
Reply #71
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Marchesk


It depends if you believe they exited the tent at the same time...and I suppose that there is evidence that at least 2 were better clothed and so possibly were not in the tent when the "incident that drove them from the tent" occurred?

Also, I think Star Man had implied that maybe one or two had gone off in a huff - which may be possible within this infighting scenario too, right?


So how does this scenario play out? An argument breaks out in the tent, one of the Yuri's cuts the tent in anger and the other one follows him out. They decide to go down the mountain to the woods to cool off, where they start a fire. Meanwhile, Igor, Rustem and Zina are pissed at the tent being ruined, so after some discussion and maybe further disagreement with the other four, they go down the mountain to confront the Yuris. Fisticuffs ensue and things the fight takes a deadly turn after someone bludgeons Rustem over the head with a cedar branch. One of the Yuris is pushed into a the fire. Another is restrained by sitting on his stomach.

The rav4 group finally comes down to check on things, and they break up the fight, chasing off Igor's group. The fire has been put out and the Yuris are not in good shape. So the rav4 go to make a snow den to wait out the night. But then Igor and Zina ambush them in revenge for Rustem, who has wandered off uphill and passed out. The fight near the entrance of the snow den causes a collapse into the ravine.

Igor and Zina are able to escape it and head back to the tent. But they're not in good enough condition to make it at this point.


Does something along those lines sound believable?

April 22, 2019, 03:19:27 PM
Reply #72
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

If you can discount any other natural explanations, the stove, ethanol poisoning and something nobody's thought of. But this is assuming we really can exclude avalanche/snow slab, military accident and outside involvement, which I don't think we can.

In my view, the evidence is simply inconclusive. It doesn't rule in favor of any one theory, nor does it rule out most theories. A lot of the evidence can be questioned or interpreted in different ways depending on which theory you favor.

But sure, if we could exclude all the others, then an internal dispute is all we're left with. I just have a hard time believing they all leave the tent over a fight and end up down slope, unable to make their way back.

Of course you are right.  The evidence is patchy and can be used to fit different theories.  It is difficult to think that they left the tent without some external influence, especially the shoes.  That's what I find hard to square. 

Even so, the case files state there were no signs of anyone else.  That's what I'm trying to understand.  Is there a scenario that could explain them leaving the camp without their shoes and outer clothing, just as a result of their own behaviours or decisions?

There were tensions within the group.  9 people on a hard trek and living toe to toe in a tent is likely to create friction.  It's just human nature.  It only takes one of them to have psychotic undertones.

I wouldn't rule out methanol or poisoning of some kind.  That would be a simple and credible explanation. 

Is it possible that they all were poisoned with some kind of radioactive substance?  Yuris K and Kolevatov were suppose to have worked with radiation?  Is it possible that he had some dangerous radioactive material and because he felt he was being victimised he contaminated the food with it?  How would that affect the body?

Maybe they realised, or maybe he even told them and a fight broke out at the camp and then the events escalated from there.

Regards

Star man

April 22, 2019, 04:05:50 PM
Reply #73
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

People are not Computers. People are not programmed to think in a particular way. You say that there are clues of friction in the diaries. Only clues  !  ?  Actually it is not even evidence.
DB

April 22, 2019, 04:07:48 PM
Reply #74
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

Totally plausible without getting completely dragged down trying to explain every tiny factoid.    thumb1

Is it what happened, or similar to what happened?.....  No idea, but I have loooong thought fighting among themselves is a real possibility.   I do know that Russian DP gurus will tell you absolutely not, these were the kindest most innocent 'kids' on the planet and it is not in the nature of Russians to act in such a manor.   rolleyes1

I would say totally inplausible.  There is nothing in any of the findings of the search parties that lead one to suspect any fighting amongst the Dyatlov Group. And some of the injuries are like MUTILATIONS not caused by any other human, etc etc.


No mutilations, sorry.

Like Mutilations.
DB

April 22, 2019, 04:13:56 PM
Reply #75
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

Regards

Star man

And does that include the very mysterious abandonment of their means of survival the Tent and Clothing. And does that include  the injuries that could not have been caused by any other Human etc etc etc etc.
DB

April 22, 2019, 10:45:49 PM
Reply #76
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cennetkusu


Friends, this isn't a simple thing. Let's just say this first. See injuries !!! These are not the things a person can do ... So simple fight like a fight avalanche poisoning never explains this event. This event cannot be explained for simple reasons. This is not possible. The young men left the tent with great fear. And they wanted to go back to the tent with great courage not to die from the cold. Because maybe they were hoping Superman wouldn't kill them. But Superman wanted to take them to his side. He must have deliberately picked them. And most probably the superman still continues to take the people he has chosen in the world. I think Semyon Kolevatov and Dubinina are against the superman. So Superman was furious with them. And I hurt them ... As I said, this event is certainly not able to explain for simple reasons ..... So look around your head for simple reasons to no avail.
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 22, 2019, 11:33:50 PM
Reply #77
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It depends if you believe they exited the tent at the same time...and I suppose that there is evidence that at least 2 were better clothed and so possibly were not in the tent when the "incident that drove them from the tent" occurred?

Also, I think Star Man had implied that maybe one or two had gone off in a huff - which may be possible within this infighting scenario too, right?


So how does this scenario play out? An argument breaks out in the tent, one of the Yuri's cuts the tent in anger and the other one follows him out. They decide to go down the mountain to the woods to cool off, where they start a fire. Meanwhile, Igor, Rustem and Zina are pissed at the tent being ruined, so after some discussion and maybe further disagreement with the other four, they go down the mountain to confront the Yuris. Fisticuffs ensue and things the fight takes a deadly turn after someone bludgeons Rustem over the head with a cedar branch. One of the Yuris is pushed into a the fire. Another is restrained by sitting on his stomach.

The rav4 group finally comes down to check on things, and they break up the fight, chasing off Igor's group. The fire has been put out and the Yuris are not in good shape. So the rav4 go to make a snow den to wait out the night. But then Igor and Zina ambush them in revenge for Rustem, who has wandered off uphill and passed out. The fight near the entrance of the snow den causes a collapse into the ravine.

Igor and Zina are able to escape it and head back to the tent. But they're not in good enough condition to make it at this point.


Does something along those lines sound believable?

I think the difficult thing to explain is why there wasn’t more of them wearing boots.  Semyon and Thibo had boots and better clothes so in the scenario you outlined it would seem that they left the tent in a more orderly controlled way or they were already dressed.  Maybe the sequence of events didn’t happen exactly the way you say but yes that is the sort of thing we are talking about,
Regards
Star man

April 22, 2019, 11:46:02 PM
Reply #78
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

People are not Computers. People are not programmed to think in a particular way. You say that there are clues of friction in the diaries. Only clues  !  ?  Actually it is not even evidence.

Yes people are programmed.  People basically have two modes - system 1 and system 2 thinking.  System 2 is used to learn.  In other words to program system 1. System 2 is slow and cumbersome.  System 1 is sub conscious.  Solve the following 2 problems in your head:

10x6=
567x 398=

The first answer you provide is pre programmed.

The second will likely be system 2 in operation.

Regards

Star man

April 23, 2019, 04:38:40 AM
Reply #79
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

Regards

Star man

And does that include the very mysterious abandonment of their means of survival the Tent and Clothing. And does that include  the injuries that could not have been caused by any other Human etc etc etc etc.

Yes in terms of this topic it does.  It is an assumption of the topic.  Whatever happened, it was a result of a simple credible problem.

Regards
Star man


April 23, 2019, 06:11:35 AM
Reply #80

Clacon

Guest
Okay - lets just say a physical fight did occur. Where is the place it was most likely to have occurred? Based on the evidence?

The Cedar?

Because if it had occurred at the tent, someone other than the 2 who had protective shoes on would have put THEIR shoes on right? If you're going off in a huff, you put your shoes on. If you're running after someone, you put your shoes on.

The only credible explanation for a fight causing them to leave the tent without protective clothing on, is if they were inebriated by alcohol/poisoning/etc. Something that compromised their logic.

Only 3 or 4 would have been so overcome (FIGHT or FLIGHT) that they would have gone out of the tent in their sleepwear.

Also, very important - it has been highly contested that they cut themselves out of the tent. I mean, unless of course someone got so pissed with having to sew the tent, that as revenge, they did cut it from the inside. But this is unlikely.

April 23, 2019, 07:54:17 AM
Reply #81
Offline

cennetkusu


If he fought who? How do you kill ??? Knife or drowning ???   There is no single evidence of knife and drowning.   If they couldn't kill each other, why didn't they go back to the tent ??? Or why didn't they go back to the tent when the fight was over? Why don't the eyes and the ribs are broken and the tongue does ??? Did they fight?
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 23, 2019, 08:54:18 AM
Reply #82
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Okay - lets just say a physical fight did occur. Where is the place it was most likely to have occurred? Based on the evidence?

The Cedar?

Because if it had occurred at the tent, someone other than the 2 who had protective shoes on would have put THEIR shoes on right? If you're going off in a huff, you put your shoes on. If you're running after someone, you put your shoes on.

The only credible explanation for a fight causing them to leave the tent without protective clothing on, is if they were inebriated by alcohol/poisoning/etc. Something that compromised their logic.

Only 3 or 4 would have been so overcome (FIGHT or FLIGHT) that they would have gone out of the tent in their sleepwear.

Also, very important - it has been highly contested that they cut themselves out of the tent. I mean, unless of course someone got so pissed with having to sew the tent, that as revenge, they did cut it from the inside. But this is unlikely.

Is it possible that one of them went psycho after a fight at the tent and attacked the others with a knife.  The immediate and significant threat to life was one of their own group members.  Let’s say that person grabs Semyon from behind, arm around neck holding knife to his throat. The psycho tells those who have come out of tent without shoes to throw their weapons back into tent.  Kolevatov who has drawn his fink and dropped the sheath outside throws it back into the tent.  Semyon struggles and breaks free but sustains a bad cut to his head behind his ear.  The psycho then runs at the group who flee down the slope, with the psycho in pursuit.  The group eventually split up on the slope as the psycho can’t follow all of them. 

The rav four have a bad accident falling off a ridge. The two Yuris climb the cedar to get a vantage point.  Maybe it is the two Yuris that the psycho followed.  He waits under the cedar. Maybe even lights the fire.  Before the two Yuris climb down the psycho leaves and attempts to go back to the tent.  The two Yuris climb or fall out of the tree and die from the cold.

We already know what happens to the rav four. 

So the other two die wandering around on the slope.  And eventually the psycho dies on the slope too.  So who is the psycho?  Zina is not likely.  Rustem has bad head injuries, so unlikely. The most psycho would be Dyatlov?

Regards
Star man

April 23, 2019, 09:49:01 AM
Reply #83
Offline

cennetkusu


A person with a knife has no chance against 8 people. And probable most of them must be knives. And why are they following her with bare feet and half naked ???  Youth people seem smart and professional. I'm sure they're not going to make such a big mistake.As far as I can see from the photos there was a strong friendship between them.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 10:09:14 AM by cennetkusu »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 23, 2019, 11:15:30 AM
Reply #84

Clacon

Guest
It could have happened like that, but do you honestly think it did? Are you 100 percent? I don't know Star Man....I'm starting to think a fight wasn't enough to send them out into the night like that. :(

And what of my question about where the physical fight occurred, because I don't know if there is any evidence that a fight occurred at the tent. Where the physical fight occurred is integral to the fight theory, right?? And I say physical, because of course yes, an argument could have occurred at the tent, but a verbal fight wouldn't result in the exposure death of the hikers....unless they were running from an attacker. But one attacker? Against minimum 6??

If a knife had been used, don't you think there would have been way more slash wounds?

And the only "possible" wound caused by a knife was supposedly on Dyatlov's palm:
Vietnamka: "In the area of the palm surface of the second and fifth fingers there is a skin wound of irregular linear shape with regular edges located transverse to the length of the fingers; the surface wounds are up to 0.1 (or 0.2 – note) cm deep."

I don't know if Semyon's wound can be attributed to a knife slash - 8 x 6cm's just seems too wide doesn't it? The skin covering the skull is so thin.

And I just can't forget about the radioactive clothing. I first thought it might be attributed to 2 of them working at a nuclear facility. However, remembering that the amount was high DESPITE lying in water and having most of it apparently washed away and reading about the examination from a person who seemed to be an expert on this subject ("Ryan"), I am of the belief that the radiation that tainted the clothes occurred on the mountain.


April 23, 2019, 12:22:57 PM
Reply #85
Offline

Marchesk


And I just can't forget about the radioactive clothing. I first thought it might be attributed to 2 of them working at a nuclear facility. However, remembering that the amount was high DESPITE lying in water and having most of it apparently washed away and reading about the examination from a person who seemed to be an expert on this subject ("Ryan"), I am of the belief that the radiation that tainted the clothes occurred on the mountain.

If the radioactivity is from the mountain, then why was it found on only two of their clothes?

But more importantly, what made the investigative team think to look for radioactivity? Who asked for that test? Do we know a reason?

Seems like an odd thing to look for in the middle of nowhere, unless they suspected a secret nuclear test, facility or dumping ground nearby. Maybe even the higher ups had their own suspicion, and thus they decided to put pressure on closing the case early, just in case there was something going on.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:27:16 PM by Marchesk »

April 23, 2019, 12:56:57 PM
Reply #86
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

People are not Computers. People are not programmed to think in a particular way. You say that there are clues of friction in the diaries. Only clues  !  ?  Actually it is not even evidence.

Yes people are programmed.  People basically have two modes - system 1 and system 2 thinking.  System 2 is used to learn.  In other words to program system 1. System 2 is slow and cumbersome.  System 1 is sub conscious.  Solve the following 2 problems in your head:

10x6=
567x 398=

The first answer you provide is pre programmed.

The second will likely be system 2 in operation.

Regards

Star man

The Human Brain is a very incredible thing. The best scientists in the World have never been able to figure it out and you are saying that there are 2 programmes  !  ? 
DB

April 23, 2019, 12:57:18 PM
Reply #87
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

People are not Computers. People are not programmed to think in a particular way. You say that there are clues of friction in the diaries. Only clues  !  ?  Actually it is not even evidence.

Yes people are programmed.  People basically have two modes - system 1 and system 2 thinking.  System 2 is used to learn.  In other words to program system 1. System 2 is slow and cumbersome.  System 1 is sub conscious.  Solve the following 2 problems in your head:

10x6=
567x 398=

The first answer you provide is pre programmed.

The second will likely be system 2 in operation.

Regards

Star man

The Human Brain is a very incredible thing. The best scientists in the World have never been able to figure it out and you are saying that there are 2 programmes  !  ? 
DB

April 23, 2019, 01:02:02 PM
Reply #88
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If there was no avalanche (not credible givent incline and small amount of snow), no katana tic wind ( not credible given the position and forces that would be exhorted on the tent), no outworldy or cryptozoology explanation, no military involvement, no other outside involvement it seems that the more likely explanation for the DPI is that the events were a result of the tourists own actions?

Regards

Star man





And does that include the very mysterious abandonment of their means of survival the Tent and Clothing. And does that include  the injuries that could not have been caused by any other Human etc etc etc etc.

Yes in terms of this topic it does.  It is an assumption of the topic.  Whatever happened, it was a result of a simple credible problem.

Regards
Star man



If it was a simple credible problem then it would have been solved 60 years ago.  You can not say with any certainty whatsoever that this was a simple incident.
DB

April 23, 2019, 01:06:12 PM
Reply #89
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Okay - lets just say a physical fight did occur. Where is the place it was most likely to have occurred? Based on the evidence?

The Cedar?

Because if it had occurred at the tent, someone other than the 2 who had protective shoes on would have put THEIR shoes on right? If you're going off in a huff, you put your shoes on. If you're running after someone, you put your shoes on.

The only credible explanation for a fight causing them to leave the tent without protective clothing on, is if they were inebriated by alcohol/poisoning/etc. Something that compromised their logic.

Only 3 or 4 would have been so overcome (FIGHT or FLIGHT) that they would have gone out of the tent in their sleepwear.

Also, very important - it has been highly contested that they cut themselves out of the tent. I mean, unless of course someone got so pissed with having to sew the tent, that as revenge, they did cut it from the inside. But this is unlikely.

Based on the little evidence we have it is impossible to say with any certainty that there was any kind of fighting, let alone think you can say where it is supposed to have taken place.
DB