September 17, 2019, 04:32:05 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: I don't think there was a cover-up  (Read 498 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

July 22, 2019, 04:45:44 PM
Read 498 times
Offline

lucid-nonsense


I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?


July 23, 2019, 08:20:50 AM
Reply #1
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
I dunno about "fake files", but Communist Russia was well known for trying to hide all sorts of stuff... just look at Chernobyl.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

July 23, 2019, 09:08:18 AM
Reply #2
Offline

gypsy


I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.


It is important to note that there were probably things going on simultaneously, Ivanov opened the criminal investigation and the military officer who confiscated the file according to Okishev only found out later and acted accordingly. We need to take into account that there was no Internet so the information was easier to contain and the state apparatus was not as solid as it pretended to be.

In other words, there could be a thin line between the cover-up and incompetence.

July 24, 2019, 02:22:29 PM
Reply #3
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

Look at the facts. The searches lasted until they found all the bodies. Tests for Radiation were carried out. The Case was suddenly CLOSED and the immediate AREA put off limits for several years. All the main EVIDENCE disappeared, and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible. The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.
DB

July 25, 2019, 11:59:12 AM
Reply #4
Offline

Marchesk


All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

July 26, 2019, 06:27:13 PM
Reply #5
Offline

lucid-nonsense


The searches lasted until they found all the bodies.

Well, yeah, that makes sense? They actually found the last bodies by jabbing poles into the snow, everywhere, until a pole came up with cloth on it. They had search parties with helicopters and everything. That seems like pretty thorough to me? I mean, I'm sure some evidence was blown away by the wind or buried and lost forever, because it was several weeks before anyone got to the scene, then they had to leave because of the weather, but that's not the police's fault.

Tests for Radiation were carried out.

I'm not sure how extensive tests are evidence of a cover-up?

The Case was suddenly CLOSED

Was it, though? Seems to me like they closed it after admitting they didn't have enough evidence to figure out what happened, which actually seems pretty reasonable to me. It's not like it's gonna be possible to solve every single case.

the immediate AREA put off limits for several years

I guess they didn't know what happened and were playing it safe?

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared,

It's not that surprising that the original evidence is lost 70 years later...

and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible.

Weren't everybody basically buried in their hometowns? I guess people would want to have their funeral.

The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.

The autopsy reports seem pretty solid to me? They died from hypothermia and a high-speed collision (probably a fall).  What else would you have liked to see?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 06:36:42 PM by lucid-nonsense »

July 26, 2019, 06:32:16 PM
Reply #6
Offline

lucid-nonsense


I dunno about "fake files", but Communist Russia was well known for trying to hide all sorts of stuff... just look at Chernobyl.

Yeah but that's the thing. There isn't a fake Chernobyl file. Why would you bother with a fake file if you don't have to answer any questions anyway? I mean, just don't talk about it, and if someone asks too many questions, they can find like-minded inquisitive souls in the gulag.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 07:51:09 PM by lucid-nonsense »

July 26, 2019, 06:34:38 PM
Reply #7
Offline

lucid-nonsense



Ivanov opened the criminal investigation...

I thought there was no criminal investigation?


military officer who confiscated the file according to Okishev only found out later and acted accordingly.

I've never heard of this, the file was confiscated? The entire file? Then it was returned?


the state apparatus was not as solid as it pretended to be.

Do you mean that maybe there is a cover-up, but that the police isn't in on it? For example, the military knew something they didn't tell the police? That's possible, but then why wouldn't they just tell the police to drop the investigation?

If we're talking about the police covering it up, this means that they pretended to investigate while secretly knowing what happened the whole time, or that they just wrote up all these interviews and reports and tests. But for whom? Whom were they trying to fool?  It's not like they were going to show the file to anybody anyway?

And besides, can you imagine if the Soviets went through so much effort for a cover-up every time they killed someone? It would never end!

Maybe that's why the Bloc collapsed.  twitch7
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 08:00:50 PM by lucid-nonsense »

July 27, 2019, 01:26:43 AM
Reply #8
Offline

gypsy


Ivanov opened the Criminal investigation, it says so at the beginning of the case files and in the resolution to close the case.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743

The cover up and confiscation is mentioned by Evgeni Okishev, prosecutor from Sverdlovsk, who suvervised the original case.

https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013

https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014

From information known, it seems that there was a cover-up, but not everyone was on it. I suppose that local "police" and prosecutors were not part of it, but were outranked. Okishev says the file was confiscated by a senior army officer from Moscow. If nothing else, we are missing some items mentioned in radiograms and toxicology report which is the standard practice to include in case of death.

July 30, 2019, 01:25:52 PM
Reply #9
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

Well the main site from which this Forum derives would have stated if there was any known Evidence missing which hadnt been made public.
DB

July 30, 2019, 01:34:14 PM
Reply #10
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The searches lasted until they found all the bodies.

Well, yeah, that makes sense? They actually found the last bodies by jabbing poles into the snow, everywhere, until a pole came up with cloth on it. They had search parties with helicopters and everything. That seems like pretty thorough to me? I mean, I'm sure some evidence was blown away by the wind or buried and lost forever, because it was several weeks before anyone got to the scene, then they had to leave because of the weather, but that's not the police's fault.  {{{{ Who said it was the Polices fault  }}}}

Tests for Radiation were carried out.

I'm not sure how extensive tests are evidence of a cover-up? {{{{ Who said that extensive tests are Evidence of a cover up  }}}}

The Case was suddenly CLOSED

Was it, though? Seems to me like they closed it after admitting they didn't have enough evidence to figure out what happened, which actually seems pretty reasonable to me. It's not like it's gonna be possible to solve every single case. {{{{ Yes the Case was suddenly CLOSED  }}}}

the immediate AREA put off limits for several years

I guess they didn't know what happened and were playing it safe? {{{{ So they must have been very concerned that something very unusual had happened  }}}}

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared,

It's not that surprising that the original evidence is lost 70 years later... {{{{ Considering the publicity locally and probably Nationally at the time and the fact that it was a potentially very serious CRIME it is surprising that the Authorities didnt keep all the main Evidence safe for posterity at least.  }}}}

and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible.

Weren't everybody basically buried in their hometowns? I guess people would want to have their funeral.

The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.

The autopsy reports seem pretty solid to me? They died from hypothermia and a high-speed collision (probably a fall).  What else would you have liked to see?  {{{{ There is no conclusive proof that the Dyatlov Group died from HYPOTHERMIA or and a HIGH - SPEED COLLISION. }}}}
DB

August 29, 2019, 07:58:56 PM
Reply #11
Offline

PghRunner


I've been thinking about something similar to this--it doesn't have to necessarily be a cover-up.  It could have been a "shut 'er down."

What if "an unknown compelling force" was the specific answer, just not named?  What I mean by that is, those in charge of the investigation are given the direction of, "Look, we know what happened to these kids.  They were forced out/extreme force was used" and we're just going to leave it at that."  The old, "need to know basis" and no one involved in the investigation really needed to know.  Someone at the top knows what happened, whether accident or murder or what have you, but all anyone really needed to know was that it was violent.  It happened.  And now it's over.

I speculate this only based on the political nature of the Soviet Union at the time.  Eliminate all our questions, all the shoddy evidence and theories.  The USA in the 50s had their own witch hunts going on, trying to sniff out communism and ruining peoples lives/careers because of it.  The Soviets were so quiet and tightlipped about everything.  Yeah, they can't hide the accident at Chernobyl.  Gotta fess up to that one.  I just don't think a political machine like the Soviet Union would really need to go so far to create a cover up, especially if they knew what happened.  If they knew and determined no one else really needed to know, then they just ended it.  They acknowledged it was overwhelming, no need to specify, and that was that.  Kind of like, you're not exactly lying, but you're not exactly telling the truth.

And, in the end, no matter what specifically that force was--be accident or murder or Yeti or rouge Mansi--politically/culturally speaking, I wouldn't think they'd want that kind of information getting out to the public.  I don't know much about Soviet Russia, but I do know that information here in the States was pretty regulated in the 50s.  Assuming it was the same in the Soviet Union, it's reasonable to assume they want everyone to know, hey, we're in control.  We've got this.  There's nothing out there that you need to worry about, nothing that's going to chase you down a mountain and leave you to die.  They gave the explanation and quelled the proverbial fire before it started.

Of course, this could just be late night pondering.  It's interesting food for thought.  A socio-political perspective of Russia at the time/what the general populace was allowed to know verses not allowed to know, would be interesting.  Would it help solve the mystery.  No.  But it would perhaps give context to the world our nine were living in.
We're all stories in the end....so make it a good one, eh?

August 29, 2019, 09:06:25 PM
Reply #12
Offline

jarrfan


I agree with your assumption of the environment in Russia at the time. I lived through it so I know how it was.

One other tidbit of information I came across is that one of the rescurer volunteers, a young student, took one of the cameras in  order to see what was on it before the rangers knew it was missing. Once they realized it was missing, he was contacted and he folded and gave up the camera. Wonder what happened to that guy? Why would he take it in the first place if he didn't know there was a cover up  forming?

August 30, 2019, 11:30:56 AM
Reply #13
Online

Nigel Evans


I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?
Afaik it wasn't a fake file, it was the original file with anything deemed sensitive removed.

August 30, 2019, 11:37:40 AM
Reply #14
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
 dunno1

We dont know if anything is missing.   Just saying, we can speculate all day but......
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 30, 2019, 11:45:46 AM
Reply #15
Online

Nigel Evans


When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

August 30, 2019, 12:25:33 PM
Reply #16
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

Its no 'secret' that the case was 'secret' for many years until its release, what you propose does not speak to anything new or provide any evidence that items were 'missing' in the case files after declassification.  okey1
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 30, 2019, 01:25:23 PM
Reply #17
Offline

gypsy


When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

Its no 'secret' that the case was 'secret' for many years until its release, what you propose does not speak to anything new or provide any evidence that items were 'missing' in the case files after declassification.  okey1

Toxicology report either missing or deliberately not performed at all, inventory mentioned by search group members missing, whatever was done after the case was removed from Ivanov by military officer not accounted for at all. Nothing regarding the exclusion zone (somebody issued an order)... When Ivanov started talking about the fire orbs, first logical thing to do by his superiors would be to check with the nearest radar station about potential detection. We have no idea what else was done but not recorded properly.

August 30, 2019, 01:53:31 PM
Reply #18
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Ok, but how would we know if something was omitted from declassification?  we dont.  read1
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 31, 2019, 02:12:37 AM
Reply #19
Online

Nigel Evans


Ok, but how would we know if something was omitted from declassification?  we dont.  read1
Quite correct, but my original point was that (i assert) the case file is not "created" but what remains after things are removed.
There's an important difference in that what is there can be assumed to be genuine.