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Author Topic: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death  (Read 446 times)

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May 12, 2019, 04:31:56 AM
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Teddy

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If in other instances of telepathic communication both parties participated, clearly aware of their involvement in what is happening, then in the following example of telepathic contact between unfamiliar people, the power of telepathic influence is not so obvious, causing only a premonition and vague guesses of something fatal.

It will be about the premonition of Lyudmila Dubinina of her tragic death, signs of which, one way or another, appear in the records of her personal diary and in the peculiarities of her behavior during and after Dyatlov group pass through Vizhay.

Many authors of criminal versions of the death of Dyatlov’s group note the fact that the hikers were killed with extreme cruelty, as indicated by the nature of the injuries on the bodies of the hikers discovered by search and rescue in a ravine in early May 1959. This in turn suggests that the murder was committed based on the hatred of the murderers personally to those of the hikers who suffered more. Only two members of the Dyatlov group were mutilated by the murderers with extreme cruelty: Alexander (Semyon) Zolotarev and Lyudmila Dubinina. However, Lyudmila Dubinina had more severe injuries - in addition to numerous rib fractures on both sides of the chest, she had not only eyeballs, but also no tongue, according to the autopsy report. Consequently, there are good reasons to assume that the main object of hatred and revenge for the murderers among all the hikers was exactly Lyudmila Dubinina.

Therefore, any researcher investigating the death of the Dyatlov group in the framework of the criminal version of the premeditated murder, taking into account the data of the FEM of Lyudmila Dubinina, should first of all examine all the materials of the criminal case relating to this girl in order to identify possible conflict situations with her participation, and this is primarily from the diaries.

The version of the mystery of the murder of Dyatlov group is currently the only of all criminal versions, which has a documentary rationale for the possibility of a conflict between Lyudmila Dubinina and one of the employees of colony No. 64 under USh / 349-Ivdellag during the stay of the Dyatlov group in the village of Vizhay.

Dyatlov group arrived in Vizhay together with another group led by Blinov, and decided to stay for one night, as a result of which they spent in the the village almost a day from 14:00 on January 25, left for a ride only at 13:10 on January 26.

It is possible that the atmosphere of psychological discomfort that prevailed in the village. Vizhay, had a depressing effect on the hikers, which Lyudmila Dubinina partly reproduces in her diary: "We had a tearful goodbye with Blinov group. The mood sank. ...In general, I am very, very sad".

In addition to this can be an entry in the personal diary of Zina Kolmogorova, who described the movement of the group from the village club to the hotel in the village. Vizhay, carefully provided to the group by someone from the leadership of the settlement-colony. Such participation in the fate of a group of hikers by the colony’s leadership is explained by the fact that Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, “to render all possible assistance” in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.

Perhaps it is no coincidence that Zina Kolmogorova formulated this movement as follows: "25.1.59… We arrived in Vizhay. First we stopped at the same club where we were 2 years ago. Then we were taken to the hotel".


Even Zina's use of the words "taken away" instead of "invited to move", "offered to move" or something like that, in these parts at that time had a very specific tint, meaning, as an addition, "under escort" to the word "taken". But this is only a touch to a very specific psychological atmosphere of the village. Vizhay, whose inhabitants provided jobs for the colony at that time. This specific atmosphere for this area influenced on a subconscious level, forcing to choose specific words corresponding to its environment. ("we were taken"), and not just words.

Continuing on, Zina notes in her diary a certain peculiarity of the influence of this place on herself: "I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all nonsense.". It is unlikely that we will find out what is sincere and unusual for her earlier, Zina spoke at the hotel of the settlement-colony Vizhay.

Dyatlov group would be better to stay overnight "In the same club where they were 2 years ago", rather than agree to "be taken" to the hotel, Judging by the non-forest review of her in the general diary of the group on the morning of January 26: "Slept in the so-called hotel, some bundling 2 people on a bed, and Sasha K. and Krivo even on the floor between the beds".


The canteen in Vizhay. Igor Dyatlov said with a smile: "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street, it will be hot."

That is, the group was clearly not happy with "so-called hotel", I think, not only due to the fact that her hotel service did not provide for the availability of a sufficient number of beds for all hotel guests. The fact is that the hikers who returned in high spirits from the club after watching a movie "Symphony in Gold" On the evening of January 25, they encountered serious difficulties in preparing a hot dinner due to raw wood for the stove, as a result of which the cooking process took "a lot of time". From the diary of Lyudmila Dubinina:

"We are on duty with Yuri today. We decided to cook noodles on the stove. But it was very difficult to heat the stove with such raw firewood, so it took a lot of time. Finally we began to eat.".

Yuri Krivonischenko, who was on duty this evening with Lyudmila, wrote in the diary of the group the next morning: "We did not boil water in the morning, wood was damp. In the evening it took us 6 hours to boil the water.… Krivonischenko".

Such problems in preparing a hot dinner for experienced hikers, even in remote taiga, were extremely rare, as follows from the entry in the group’s diary for January 30: "As usual we quickly start a fire".

Even if we take into account the possible exaggeration in the assessment of time – "6 hours", spent on the kindling of the stove, then the difficulties that arose in the "so-called hotel" Vizhay could ruffle any experienced hikers for whom it was not difficult to quickly make a fire even in the forest.

And given the difficult mental state of Lyudmila Dubinina these days, it can be assumed that the difficulties encountered in the "so-called hotel" she could be completely out of balance, causing a flush of fair anger and anger on conditions "hotel service", to put it in modern language. Therefore, she could express everything she thinks about this in the most harsh terms to anyone responsible for this “hotel service” person, regardless of her rank and position.

This is in complete agreement with the opinion of O. Arhipov: "Well, it is known that Lyudmila Aleksandrovna was sharp on the tongue and principled. She would not keep her mouth shut.".

This peculiarity of Lyudmila’s character is confirmed in her personal diary the day before the hikers arrive in the village of Vizhay: "January 24th ... Yes, and I generally like to add fuel to the fire, damn me".

The negative superstitious potential of such a phrase, recorded on paper, could in some way “program” its further actions, determined by this striking feature of its character.

Confirmation of the inflated state of the psyche of Ludmila we find in her notes in her personal diary the day after her ordeals as an attendant in the "so-called hotel" in village of Vizahy:

"January 26... Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell".

I.e. even the next day, Lyudmila felt a sense of anger, the degree of which she so uncompromisingly marked: "as hell".


Her expectations of improving her mood in two days obviously did not happen, but despite this, she nevertheless continued to keep her personal diary for two days.

Judging by the fact that from January 28, Lyudmila ceased to keep a personal diary at all, having previously recorded in her impressions of the hike, her mood two days after being in Vizhay not only did not improve, but was also aggravated by some kind of depression, fading interest in everyday trivialities of hiking life, which earlier made up the majority of her personal diary entries.

After visiting the village of Vizhay Lyudmila's psychological state deteriorated quite sharply, aggravating day by day, which is confirmed by the peculiarities of her behavior from January 26 to January 30, which are known to us from her personal diary and Zina Kolmogorova's notes in her diary.

In Ludmila’s personal diary, even on January 27, the first sign of some unconscious doom, expressed by the negative potential of the phrase, is encountered: "the last time", referring to the whole group:

"January 27... Now most of the guys sit here and sing songs to the guitar, on the occasion that they do not work today. It seems this is the last time we heard so many good new songs. But we hope that Rustik will live up to the challenge."

"This is the last time we heard..." And how can you not become superstitious, listening to popular wisdom not to use this phrase, so as not to incur the misfortune.

It should be noted that on January 27th Lyudmila uses the word "it seems" before the key phrase: "this is the last time we heard", i.e. although she was under the impression of her forebodings, they still didn’t have that fatal doom which followed the next day, January 28, when Lyudmila completely stopped writing her impressions of the everyday life in her diary. Only the presentiment of something fatal could have suppressed the long-term habit of an experienced hikers to keep his personal diary during a hike.

The possibility of perceiving other people's thoughts or feelings directed at the subject of perception has long been a subject of study - telepathy, finding confirmation from persons endowed with such an ability that it is not uncommon. Therefore, at the heart of Ludmila Dubinina’s foreboding of her fatal doom, her ability to perceive her feelings of revenge related to her personally, rather than feelings of hatred, filled with negative emotions, fueled by the willingness to materialize them with a picture of the upcoming murder.

Considering that on January 28th Lyudmila completely stopped recording in her personal diary, it can be assumed that on this day the person who ordered the murder made the final decision to deal with the hikers, using associates from his inner circle, staging the killing of group members as an accident caused by the "overwhelming force" on Ural mountain ridge, with reference to the words of forester Rempel I. D. about the potential dangers lurking there for hikers.

It was on that day that Lyudmila Dubinina, previously so verbose in the records of her personal diary, completely stopped writing in it, apparently vaguely anticipating all the fatalism of the deadly threat hanging over her.

It is not excluded that Lyudmila Dubinina’s short but brief conflict with someone from the staff of the colony settlement of Vizhay over raw wood for the stove had its continuation already at the telepathic level of communication between the parties to the conflict, as is almost the case in life when the parties of an emotional conflict continue to mentally express to the offender everything that has boiled over. I think anyone can remember from their own experience an episode of their emotional involvement in an imaginary continuation of a conflict situation after the abuser has long disappeared from sight. As a rule, the conflict situation continues at the telepathic level of communication until it energetically disrupts itself in one way or another.


As we can see, even the next day, Lyudmila experienced a feeling of anger - "evil as hell", and this emotional negative could feed the energetics of her telepathic communication with those whom she clearly said too much (cut out her tongue) under the influence of her complex emotional state, known to us from her diary. She was clearly unlucky because she dealt with a professional killer who had served for many years in the NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs).

With each day, Lyudmila Dubinina increasingly "went into herself", plunging into the foreboding of something fatal, apparently already fearful from the thought of presenting her fears in her personal diary, much less sharing them with her friends. A possible culmination of this depressed state was a sharp, outwardly unreasonable, change in her behavior on the evening of January 30, which outraged the whole group. As follows from Zina Kolmogorova’s diary entries, it was in the evening of January 30th that Lyudmila Dubinina lost interest in working together on patching up the holes of a dilapidated tent, apparently, already immersed in a stupor from the suddenly increased premonition of her fatal doom:

"January 30... Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Thibault changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda. Guys are terribly outraged. Today is the birthday of Sasha Kolevatov*. Congratulations. We give him a tangerine, which he immediately divided into 8 pieces (Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner).

A possible reason for such a sudden change in the behavior of Lyudmila on the evening of January 30 is the described in the investigation section of the Killers' Ski Route to the upper sources of Auspiya. It is possible that the three murderers, having gone early in the morning of January 29 from 2nd Northern to the upper sources of Auspiya "took a shortcut on one of our forest paths" (words of forester I. D. Rempel), by the evening of January 30, they could have already achieved their intended destination, settling for the night in the headwaters of Auspiya. For this reason, on the evening of January 30, they could mentally withdraw from the two previous days of a ski trip to the upper sources of Auspiya, focusing their attention on waiting for the hikers to arrive and discussing the details of their plan. This may well explain such a dramatic change in the behavior of Lyudmila in the evening of January 30, because she was the main object of revenge, which riveted the thoughts of the murderers to her more than her comrades, judging by the severity of injuries inflicted on her later.

Mention Lyudmila in his personal diary "evil spirits" - "evil as hell", and to some extent "calling out" to her - "damn me", give the tragic death of Dyatlov's group some kind of ominous mystical connotation that actualizes the significance of domestic superstition:

January 24... Yes, and I generally like to add fuel to the fire, damn me to hell.
January 25... The mood sank. In general, I am very, very sad.
January 26... Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.

What can cause such changes in Lyudmila's behavior from January 26 to 30, which later became the victim of revenge in Dyatlov group murders (..., cut the tongue)?

The only plausible explanation for such dramatic changes in Lyudmila’s behavior can only be her premonition of an impending mortal threat, due to her ability at the telepathic level, to vaguely perceive the terrible picture of her plans being visualized by the murderers, which she simply could not want to believe, but the oppressive negative of this premonition had its influence on her thoughts and actions.

In any case, the diary notes of Lyudmila Dubinina and the peculiarities of her behavior shortly before and after the visit of Dyatlov group to the village of Vizhay can hardly be explained only rationally, consistent with the beginnings of common sense, without attracting the irrational component of human existence, bringing something ominously mystical to the tragic death of the Dyatlov group.

On Jan 27, 1959 while at the 41st logging site Dyatlov group learn some Mansi words. Zina, Lyuda and Rustem make similar notes in their diaries. The first word they write is "Я - ручей" which in Russian sounds like "I am a river" or with the dash "I am in the river". Something that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up when you think where was Lyuda found.

I have solicited an opinion from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany on the subject. What was tormenting Lyuda's mind in the days before the tragedy, was she feeling the impending doom or was she just a troubled soul?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 05:25:04 AM by Teddy »

May 12, 2019, 08:59:04 AM
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sabine


Sabine Lechtenfeld
Hannover
Germany

12.5.2019,

I thought long and hard about what kind of assessment of Lyuda's character and behavior prior to her death I could put together. I decided that there is not enough reliable material for a proper scientific expertise. I don't want to go down the path of many others and pull an imaginary rabbit out of my hat.

However, I will give you an assortment of my subjective impressions and tentative conclusions.

Let me start with the idea that some of Lyuda's behavior and her last diary entries may have been out-of-character and hint at the possibility that she had a premonition of the tragedy, or that she - as Aleks Kandr's article suggests - may even have been in telepathic contact with her future killer.  When investigating a suspicious death it's standard procedure to scrutinize the behavior of the victims shortly before their deaths and look for changes and unusual behavior. But you have to adopt a pre-mortem perspective in order to avoid the fallacies of confirmation bias. The key question is: was Lyuda's behavior behavior and her diary entries strange and different from her usual behavior - even if we don't know about the fate of the expedition? Unfortunately there's not a lot of material available for answering that question accurately.

Let's first look at the fact that Lyuda stopped writing her diary and that she decided not to help with some daily chores, like mending the tent, and that she isolated herself from the other expedition members shortly before they all perished. From the little we do know about her curriculum vitae and various diary entries, I conclude that she was an intelligent and well-educated young woman, who was introverted and did not socialize easily. She seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault. Since she was the treasurer of the expedition this would've served her well. And according to her own assessment she couldn't hold her tongue and didn't hesitate to speak her mind, which she regretted sometimes. She also scolded herself for being socially awkward.
I looked at all available pictures of Lyuda, and she comes across as someone who is serious and rather introverted. There are not many pictures where she smiles. I saw her most engaging and beautiful smile when she looked at her little brother. I sense a bit of reserve in the pictures where she has physical contact - like a hug - with others. Compared with other members of the expedition her body language comes across as a bit reserved, although I have to attach the important caveat that she may simply not have been totally relaxed and comfortable in front of a camera.
 That she stopped to update her expedition diary is indeed concerning, since keeping a personal diary on a daily basis was considered to be one of the essential duties during these expeditions. But in order to assess if her neglect was totally out of character we need to know if she has ever failed to update her diary on a daily basis on previous expeditions. That she failed to assist with some daily chores like mending the tent, also seems to be not compatible with what we know about Lyuda, and her attitude is duly noted in diary entries by other members. But it's only a short notice and no one seems to have made a huge song and dance about it, or kicked up a fuss because of her apparent moodiness. Therefore it's difficult to say if this was a very unusual behavior for Lyuda, or if those who knew her better were used to her having certain mood swings now and then. If she was indeed prone to mood swings, her behavior over the last few days of her life may not have been out-of-character at all.  But  the big question remains: what caused this deterioration of her mood? Let's look at the crucial sentence of her diary entry, which many consider to be a premonition of the tragedy:

"Everybody felt really tired after the movie and wanted to sleep. Zina and I lay on a mesh-work bed. It's a dream. The lads rested right on the floor. The mood is evil (horrible). Seems it's going to be evil (horrible) for about two more days. I'm mad as hell (as a devil)"

I included alternative translation possibilities in brackets, since there are different possibilities to translate the origial Russian text. The English word"evil", which seems to stick out here like a sore thumb, has a different and more emotionally loaded connotation than the word "horrible".

What's really odd about these few sentences is that Lyuda doesn't give us the slightest hint, why her mood is so bad. This self-assessment of her mood seems to come totally out of the blue. Before she wrote down this sentence she told in a spirited and positive way about what the group has been up to during the day, and she and others seem to have enjoyed themselves. Even the sleeping arrangements ( she and Zina are sharing the only available bed) seems to have agreed with her - if we interpret the sentence "its a dream" in a positive way. So, everything seems to be fine - but then she writes without any explanation whatsoever that her mood is evil/horrible and that she is mad as hell! Even without the benefit of hindsight this is odd. But then she writes that her mood will be evil/horrible for about two more days. This is very interesting insofar as she seems to know quite well what causes her bad mood and when it will end. It has been suggested that she may have had her period or that she was in her pre-menstrual phase. This is a plausible idea and would explain why she seems to know quite well, when her bad mood will end. It would be such a private but banal and recurrent event that she doesn't bother to explain it. Another possibility is that Lyuda is very discontent/annoyed with the the current situation before the group starts to embark on their ski-hiking trip, and that she expects that her mood will improve once they start skiing and leave behind their current location and people. The following sentence "I'm mad as hell/as the devil" is hard to assess since she doesn't bother to elaborate. Does she always feel mad in connection with either her period or inconvenient situations - or is there something else which goes through her head while she's lying on her bed and which angers or upsets her immensely? Frankly, this sentence doesn't seem to be a vague premonition of doom at all. To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her! Unfortunately we will never know what it was. Therefore my next thoughts are purely speculative:

Is it possible that she spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way? Did she notice something which struck her as  bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing? If she mulled it over and it continued to bother her, it could explain why why she was so occupied with these thoughts that she didn't even keep up her diary. She may literally have stopped speaking her mind. But since she anticipates that her mood will be better within two days, I conclude that her bad mood had probably nothing to do with the upcoming ski-hiking expedition and/or any specific members of her group. But could Lyuda have noticed something which may have had a connection or even led to the terrible fate of the expedition? She strikes me as a perceptive and honest person. If she noticed something going on which in her opinion wasn't correct, she certainly might get mad and  be in an evil/horrible mood. But do we even have the slightest factual hint into that direction? This depends largely on the correct assessment of her autopsy protocols. Lyuda's pre-and postmortem injuries were more horrific than the injuries of all other group members. She may not only have suffered the most, but her eyes were mutilated and her tongue was missing. If the missing facial organs have any significance for the case depends largely on this: were natural decay and scavenging animals responsible - or was Lyuda deliberately mutilated? Since the original investigation concluded (or was forced to conclude) that the Dyatlov Pass deaths were not the result of a crime, they concluded that the facial disfigurations were the result of natural decay and scavenging animals. Other experts came later to a different conclusion.  But most experts seem to agree that these facial injuries happened after Lyuda's death. But if the mutilations were deliberate but postmortem, then this cannot have been a form of torture while Lyuda was still alive.

Since I'm not a pathologist I cannot decide which conclusion is correct. But let's construct a so-called thought experiment. Let's assume that the mutilations happened deliberately after Lyuda died. What exactly would that tell us? For starters we could conclude that our hypothetical assailants stuck around until she died. This is a very important conclusion because it would exclude all scenarios where after an initial wave of attacks all injured victims were left alone and then died without their attackers being around. If Lyuda was mutilated after she died, at least some perpetrators did not leave, but made sure that Lyuda (and probably the other victims, too) would be dead or die shortly.

In a scenario of deliberate postmortem mutilations we further have to ask why this was done. It has been suggested that Lyuda may have been the primary victim. Personally I have big problems with the idea that someone was targeting her specifically in a personal vendetta, and that the other group members were just collateral victims. Nothing we know about Lyuda's short life hints into such a direction. To me it seems to be totally over-the-top and excessive that a personal enemy would risk so much and kill nine people just in order to get back at Lyuda because of a personal grievance. It's also very likely that there has been more than one perpetrator. But it's not plausible to assume that a personal enemy of Lyuda would recruit helpers in order to wipe out the whole group. The reason that Lyuda's injuries were more horrific than the injuries of all others could simply mean that Lyuda may have been more resilient. This might've enraged the assailants and they attacked in a final attempt to finish her off without using a weapon. Also, the nature of Lyuda's facial mutilations are not typical tell-tale signs for someone having a personal grudge. In these personal vendetta cases  against women a totally destroyed face, and mutilated breasts and/or sexual organs are far more typical. However, the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk. Very recently the famous mobster Whitey Bulger has been killed by his prison inmates, and his tongue and eyes have been mutilated after he died, most likely because he had a long history as a police informer. I don't want to imply at all that Lyuda may have been a snitch. She strikes me as a person of great integrity who always tried to do the right thing. But if her facial mutilations were were the deliberate postmortem work of the assailants, then we should contemplate if this is a tell-tale sign that she had seen something which she shouldn't have seen, and she and the others should not talk about it. I don't reject the possibility completely that Lyuda had a premonition of impending doom, but we don't have any hints whatsoever that she was indeed psychic. And as I had argued earlier, she probably knew why she was mad and in an evil mood. I prefer a more rational explanation and think it's at least possible that Lyuda noticed something going on in her immediate surroundings before the skiing started, which bothered her greatly and caused her horrible mood. If she continued to mull it over, it could have occupied her mind after they had started their hike, and she may have become edgy and withdrawn to the point where she didn't even bother to keep up her expedition diary and stopped socializing. If she noticed something which greatly upset her, she and her fellow members may have been thought to be a potential danger for someone or a group of people and their interests. In this case the expedition may have been followed by their eventual assailants. If this was noticed by some group members, this could have sparked their jests about the existence of yetis.

In my last paragraph I may have pulled out an imaginary rabbit out of my hat - or rather out of my brain - after all. But as I said before, it's a thought experiment. My chain of arguments is based on the assumption that Lyuda's facial disfigurations were the work of perpetrators who mutilated her deliberately after she died. If this assumption is correct it has huge implications for the case. However if the disfigurations were the result of natural decay and scavenging, my chain of arguments is mute.

Personally I don't believe readily in telepathy without having additional hints. A parapsycholical explanation of Lyuda's "demons" is therefore not my first choice. However, I believe in premonitions  insofar as they may be the result of subtle or less subtle hints which which our brains pick up and then process subconsciously. Our brain continues to work even when we are not aware of it - even when we sleep. Great scientists sometimes experienced solutions for their theories in their dreams, and the results proved to be valuable. But this was only possible because all necessary information and knowledge was already there.
Many gifted so-called clairvoyants or seers work by picking up subtle clues but would not call their predictions true premonitions. While I don't completely reject the idea that true premonitions and thelepatic communications are possible, I prefer to assume that Lyuda's "evil" mood had either nothing to do with the subsequent tragedy, or that she consciously or subconsciously processed hints and observed facts and noticed something which she wasn't supposed to know or talk about. That may have led to Lyuda's so-called demons. And I believe that her facial injuries may be a hint into that direction - if they were indeed deliberate postmortem mutilations. Unfortunately we probably will never know that for sure....
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 02:03:29 PM by sabine »

May 12, 2019, 09:34:17 AM
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sabine


Unfortunately my text sports a few typos. Some of them are the unfortunate result of autocorrection which tries to transform everything into German. Sometimes it's very funny and I spot it directly. Sometimes it's more subtle and I overlook it.
I apologize for all  remaining mistakes.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:11:49 AM by sabine »

May 13, 2019, 06:55:23 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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in addition to numerous rib fractures on both sides of the chest, she had not only eyeballs, but also no tongue, according to the autopsy report. Consequently, there are good reasons to assume that the main object of hatred and revenge for the murderers among all the hikers was exactly Lyudmila Dubinina.


This is where I stopped reading.   If the author is using ripped out tongue, and gouged out eyeballs as a basis for a theory....    meh
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 13, 2019, 09:21:34 AM
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Teddy

Administrator
It is not a theory, I chose this article for her birthday because it had all the strange diary entries listed in one place. Not just Lyuda's, but Zina's too. It was a strange place, Vizhay, something made them feel doomed and they couldn't lit a fire indoors. Just read the facts. I have long ago learned to just blur the nonsense. Just comment the things that are true. The diary entries are true. Why didn't they let them stay at the club? That is true. Even if Lyuda had PMS it didn't improve in 2-3 days as expected, and she just totally lost desire to function. What is your explanation for this? Something caused her moods. it is true what Sabine says - we don't have information about her usual way of behavior, but one thing we know - she was very strict and to be the first one to disobey the rules most probably she made it is strange. To stop writing in her diary is also strange. What's you take on this?

May 13, 2019, 09:23:13 AM
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Teddy

Administrator
Because of this article I was so intrigued by Vizhay that I made some research Vizhay →

May 13, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.
DB

May 13, 2019, 12:53:05 PM
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sabine


Teddy, thanks for the pics and the info about Vizhay!

The problem with the Dyatlov Pass incident is, that it leads all modern reseachers into a hermeneutical hell, since there is only very little direct material evidence which can be examined (therefore exhume all bodies!)  Everything is filtered through man made documents, and there's plenty of reasons to assume that many of them  are unreliable and/or not trustworthy or incomplete. I'm not talking about deliberate forgeries. But the original investigation was very  flawed and prematurely shut down, as we know from the chief investigator himself. Since we develop theories so many decades after the event, we all make choices, depending on our field of expertise and private world views,  as to what evidence we accept and what we reject*. But we should keep in mind that we may be wrong☺

  As far as I know there's no serious doubt that Lyuda's diary entries are legit. Therefore it does make sense to analyze them and ask what could've been the reason for her deteriorated mood (what made her so mad and why did she anticipate that things would be better within two days?) and her behavior - as far as we know about it from other diary entries - after the hiking had started. Lyuda's unique facial disfigurations have also been generally accepted as factual. But there's room for doubt if this really was solely the work of natural decay and scavenging. Some experts disagree. And therefore I think it's legitimate and necessary to look at a scenario where these facial injuries may have been inflicted deliberately, since the implications for the whole case are immense.

Aleks Kandr has taken a look at the two pieces of evidence which I mentioned above and has connected them with the group's stay in Vizhay. Because of my analysis of Lyuda's diary entries - and also because of my personal world views - I rejected the idea as unlikely that Lyuda had a true premonition of doom and was in a telepathic contact with her eventual assailants. But I think nevertheless that it's very valuable  to look again at the evidence of the diary entries as well as at Lyuda's obduction reports and how they have been re-evaluated by various forensic experts. And since Lyuda wrote about her bad mood during the group's stay in Vizhai, it's interesting to take a closer look at the location. As Teddy said  "look at the facts and blur out the nonsense" - although we all may have differing ideas about what constitutes nonsense ☺

*Personally I have rejected stoves and yetis, although for different reasons 😉
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:15:30 AM by sabine »

May 13, 2019, 01:10:31 PM
Reply #8
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sabine


I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.

Sarapuk, I agree that Lyuda's diary entries and her later behavior during the hike, don't leave us with anything solid. But if we assume for a moment that the Dyatlov group members have become victims of a crime - which is a legit possibility - every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhay, wth may have been bugging Lyuda!  It could be totally unrelated to the tragedy, but a thorough investigation needed to check! Unfortunately  now we have next to no chance to find out more...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 06:49:25 PM by sabine »

May 13, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
Reply #9
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think any kind of investigator would really need a lot more information on Lyudmila Dubinina's state of behaviour during the Dyatlov Group expedition to reach any kind of possible explanation.

Sarapuk, I agree that Lyuda's diary entries and her later behavior during the hike, don't leave us with anything solid. But if we assume for a moment that the Dyatlov group members have become victims of a crime - which is a legit possibility - every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhai, wth may have been bugging Lyuda!  It could be totally unrelated to the tragedy, but a thorough investigation needed to check! Unfortunately  now we have next to no chance to find out more...

Yes and unfortunately that is the case with so many aspects of this Dyatlov Mystery. My feelings are that unless more evidence is brought to life via the Authorities in some way then we may never have an explanation as to what actually happened.
DB

May 13, 2019, 06:07:42 PM
Reply #10
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
No idea, I just loose interest when I get to 'gouged out eyeballs and ripped out tongue'.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

May 14, 2019, 06:06:40 AM
Reply #11
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sabine



Question:

What was supposed to happen with the diaries after the expedition? What was the normal procedure? Who would read them afterwards? Would they have been routinely archived somewhere?

The more I think about it, the less I believe that Lyuda was "mad as hell" because she suffered from period-related symptoms. It's of course possible - but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period. To me it sounds more as if something very specific made her really angry or furious, and I wonder why Lyuda didn't write down why she was so angry - especially since she accused herself of having a sharp tongue, which seems to imply that she normally didn't hold back her anger.

May 14, 2019, 06:16:26 AM
Reply #12
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Teddy

Administrator
When the tent was found and everything was transported and reviewed in Ivdel, Lev Ivanov chose to include in the case files only two diaries - the group diary and another one that was named Zina's but it actually wasn't hers. For reference see https://dyatlovpass.com/diaries. The two diaries that were included in the case files (and the propaganda leaflet Evening Otorten №1) were typed and nobody outside the investigation has seen the originals, what do they look like, are they missing pages etc. The criteria for the two chosen diaries is perhaps that they have the latest entries. Nobody has explained why these and not the others, and why did they need to be retyped. The rest of the diaries were given back to the families. When in 1999 the Dyatlov foundation was established most of the document ended with Yuri Kuntsevich, the families just handed all to him.

May 14, 2019, 10:18:49 AM
Reply #13
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Teddy

Administrator
This interview can give you some idea where her diary went.

May 14, 2019, 11:36:13 PM
Reply #14
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sabine


Thanks Teddy! Will write more about the diary situation later.

Does anyone know what would've happened to the diaries if there had been no disaster and the expedition would've  ended as planned? Would each expedition member have taken home his/her diary as a souvenir or would they have been collected and archived somewhere? Who else than the diary owners would've read them later if everything had gone according to plan?

May 15, 2019, 12:26:37 AM
Reply #15
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Teddy

Administrator
Most of the papers - maps, manually drawn topos on the go - very popular for the times, and the group diary stay with the sports club who organized the trek. They typed it  and it stays in their archives. The archives were on paper, of course. But they were there. In recent years all this was digitized.
You can find here very well organized depository of documents and everything dating very far back (1935). You can search by anything - Route, State, Area, Leader, Type, Category, Year, Uploaded. Here is Karelin's trek from 1959: http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=28951&page=1
I stumble upon this trek from 1959: http://tlib.ru/doc.aspx?id=29094&page=1 and noticed that the category is V so I sent an inquiry why is that. Are we mistaken to say that category III was the highest in 1959? The answer is that in 1959 Category III was the highest category of difficulty and it only later was broken down in more categories going up to V. The second example is a mistake.

To answer Sabine - personal diaries stay with the group members, they are expected to give to the sports club only one diary in which everybody could write, but the leader was suppose to monitor that at least there is one entry per date. Personal diaries were not required, you don't need to keep a diary, only if you want to. As a matter of fact all notebooks for personal diaries were given by Zina to the members of the group before the trek. This is why they spot dedication in Zina's hand writing.


To the kind treasurer L.
Dubinina for her diary.


To the restless mechanical Rustik
   for his diary


« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 07:27:19 AM by Teddy »

August 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM
Reply #16
Online

BottledBrunette


I had written out another comment, but, I guess I had been on too long reading stuff and then writing and when I posted it, it went back to the beginning where I had to log back in again, so I posted again, but, it said I already posted it, so, I went back to the previous page to finish reading other comments, and I noticed it didn't get posted after all. bang1.  What I said was, I wondered if perhaps, Lyuda was maybe sexually assaulted by one of the men from the camp, maybe one of the military type looking guys or maybe one of the loggers or, as I suggested, but, it is probably highly unlikely, perhaps by Zolartaryov, himself, being the oldest guy there.  You just never know people.  But, I have heard that people who either are sexually assaulted, either by rape or attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change.  Maybe she said something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow.  I have heard that women undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc. Maybe that was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible.  Just a thought. I had it all written much better the first time, of course.  Maybe she thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate, help with the chores, hiding out from the rest of the group, stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries.  Just a thought that occurred to me as I was reading what Sabine posted about why Lyuda was so angry, why she didn't want to do chores like the rest of them, why she might have been not pleasant on the hiking trip, and if the the man, with the help of his buddies came back to finish her off because he was afraid she might tell, who knows, maybe she threatened to do so, and that's why she was the most mutilated, if we are going with the theory of her being the target. 
Or, here is another thought.  It sounds like the trip started off bad to begin with.  One of the guys not being able to come after all, so here comes Zolartaryov, which pissed Lyuda off immensely, then, the very long train trip; the authorities of one of the train station making them sleep outside and for arresting Krivonischenko, then, and this is new to me, the camp not letting them sleep at some club house like before, but, at some hotel that didn't have any beds (I wonder if the reason why they weren't allowed in the club like last time was because there were two groups instead of the one, however, don't know if that had anything to do with that or not, not knowing in the past if there was always just one group coming to Vizhay or more; the uncomfortable sleeping conditions; the damp wood that caused dinner to be six hours late; and maybe fighting between Dytalov and Zolartaryov over what is the the best way to go and personality clashes; and delays, trying to find rides in the most uncomfortable means, then, Yudin suddenly getting sick and leaving; the snow storm, their losing their way, etc.  While others made the best of it, if we are to believe the diaries, the misfortunes kept piling up and piling up for Lyuda.  But, that there doesn't explain why she had the most things happened to her body postmortem.