October 19, 2019, 12:44:30 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Exploring The Yeti Theory  (Read 4075 times)

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October 02, 2019, 10:09:11 AM
Reply #300
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jarrfan


I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

October 02, 2019, 02:27:45 PM
Reply #301
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man

October 07, 2019, 02:37:56 PM
Reply #302
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have to wonder if the most severe injuries, i.e., skull fractures which were undetected on the outside skin, could it be possible the skin was damaged by severe bruising but because of the mottling and skin freezer burns, the effects of a bruise were originally undetected?

I say this because it makes no sense as to how these people were so injured on the inside but there were no outward signs, according to the autopsy reports? As the autopsy shows Slobodin with a severe head fracture on both sides, how could this not be evident on the outside of his skull? I have to surmise it was because of the color of the skin after freezing.

I think you have raised some interesting questions.  I can’t say that I know the answers.  I would imagine that if a significant force is applied to external soft tissue and that force is transmitted through the tissue then the small capillaries and blood vessels would be damaged and there would be some bruising.  Maybe because it was cold, the bodies natural protective reaction kicked in and the blood was restricted from the outer skin and extremities to protect the internal organs?  Then the small capillaries would not leak blood into the surrounding tissue and therefore there was not much bruising.  Also, if they died shortly afterward and the heart stopped then that would also prevent further bruising?

Regards

Star man

Just another thought on the above - in the autopsy reports there are many reports of bruises on the bodies, so I doubt that the skin colour and mottling would have hidden any bruising around the major injuries of the rav 4.  Another possibility is that the injuries occurred after they had died, but there is also evidence that they were still alive when they received the injuries such as bleeding from the heart into the plural cavity.

Another option is that the injuries were caused by powerful blows but with softer pads of a hand?  As previously explored maybe a very large hand?

Regards

Star man

October 08, 2019, 12:42:33 PM
Reply #303
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yes, I looked at Slobodin's injuries, now his appear that his head could have been crushed by a large hand or two hands pushing on his temporal bones. The only thing I can say about these injuries is that the temporal bones are the easiest to crush since they are the thinnest of the skull bones. If someone or something pushed into his temporal bones on each side they could cause such an injury.

Thibo's depressed fracture would have taken a force in the region of 450kg but without any soft tissue damage.  The two linear fractures extent under and through the saddle of the skull and around the front to the occipital region.  The linear fractures alone would require a significant force, so the full force of this injury would have been significant and beyond any human capability using bare hands.  Slobodin's skull fracture is less significant but follows a similar pattern.  The flail chests and fractured ribs would also require forces in excess of a normal human.  Yet, the injuries are very specific.  For accidental falls there is a 25 to 70% chance of receiving other injuries to ankles, wrists, arms and legs etc, but there are no such injuries.  Now the chances of all three falling and not sustaining the other types of injuries to extremities is remote.  Now combine the above with the fact that Thibo's head injury is pretty much identical in shape to the pad of the ball of a thumb and it starts getting pretty weird. 

I tried comparing the ratio of major and minor axis of Thibo's elliptical depressed fracture with my own thumb:

Thibo's fracture = 1.25
My thumb = 1.27

I think I got that the right way round.

That's is pretty much the same shape.

Regards

Star man

Well I have to say that you are providing good food for thought in your detailed descriptions.  It certainly goes against the grain of any of the usual official lines which tend to suggest the simplest explanations like FALLS or run of the mill fist FIGHTS etc. And there is a reason why that is the case because the AUTHORITIES covered up this case as quick as they could because something extraordinary and probably unearthly happened.
DB

October 08, 2019, 02:15:21 PM
Reply #304
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Thanks.  It does seem to appear that something very strange happened to the hikers.  Maybe one more key piece of evidence might be enough to remove any doubt?  The problem is finding it.

Regards

Star man

October 10, 2019, 06:57:13 PM
Reply #305
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gypsy


I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

October 10, 2019, 11:55:19 PM
Reply #306
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

October 11, 2019, 05:15:23 PM
Reply #307
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jarrfan


Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.

October 12, 2019, 03:26:20 PM
Reply #308
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Dear Starman:

I was watching about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder case and she incurred a massive skull fracture that was not detectable on the outer skin except for a small bruise. I submit this in thinking about the Slobodin head injury. It seems whatever is used to inflict this destruction to the skull may not be visible as we would think it should be. No one knows how the blow was inflicted but it was suggested it might have been a flashlight, but it has never been proven.

The interesting thing about Slobodin's head injuries is that they are directly opposite each other in the temporal region.  Such injuries are unlikely to be the result of a fall, and more like a blow of some kind. 

Maybe the soft tissue damage is a red herring as it is not always obvious.  But the pathologists seam to puzzle over the lack of soft tissue damage on Thibo and I am simply reflecting their analysis.

The injuries of the rav 4 and the way in which they were inflicted are key to understanding what happened IMO.

Regards

Star man

October 12, 2019, 05:22:13 PM
Reply #309
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

October 12, 2019, 05:25:07 PM
Reply #310
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gypsy


I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.


October 12, 2019, 05:29:08 PM
Reply #311
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jarrfan


Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

October 12, 2019, 05:31:29 PM
Reply #312
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gypsy




Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...

October 12, 2019, 05:33:58 PM
Reply #313
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gypsy


Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

Hit by something (piece of wood or ice?) while being held against something (another person or a tree?) ? Lying on the floor with his head on one side while being hit from above?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 05:40:31 PM by gypsy »

October 12, 2019, 05:39:55 PM
Reply #314
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other.  My theory of choice is that the bloody snot froze in his nose leaving no room for expansion when his brain froze.  Why do you think water pipes crack in freezing temps?  Don't be distracted by the bruising that may have happened prior and by something different. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

October 12, 2019, 05:46:21 PM
Reply #315
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gypsy


Slobodin's head wasn't crushed on both sides ...  is was hairline fractured from one side across the top to the other. 

There was a fracture on one side and hemorrhage on both sides (just checked the illustration on the website). To me it looks like from pressing his head against the tree or ground and then hitting or crushing the head with a heavy piece of something.

October 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Reply #316
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

October 12, 2019, 06:06:17 PM
Reply #317
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gypsy


Several of them had bruising to various places on the skull including the temples.  In my opinion, the bruise in question 'may' have nothing to do with the fracture. 

Just on the first sight, looks like a different type of fracture. My logic is that inner pressure of liquid as a result of refrigeration would have caused a fracture at the weakest point which does not seem to be the place on Slobodin's head. That is why I lean towards a blow of a blunt object here. I cannot rule out one or another without expert opinion, though.

October 12, 2019, 06:25:21 PM
Reply #318
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Variables and conditions....

I would imagine the brain areas near the thin portions of the skull would start to freeze first, thus further reinforcing those areas.  It would seem to be the base of the skiskullll that cracks first, but what happens when your face down in snow with the back/base of the skull exposed to negative temps?   I can imagine a brain freezing under these circumstances from rear to front. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:53:27 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

October 13, 2019, 02:11:02 PM
Reply #319
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I am sorry to disappoint some people here but force of 450kg is just NOT beyond human capability. I personally know people who can deliver this amount of force with a direct punch, not to mention a kick. One well trained person with enough skill and weight around 100-120kg can cause basically all of these fractures in the matter of minutes without "superhuman" effort. As for "bigger" size of the "hands" needed to inflict the injuries, the simple explanation is gloves.

Just ask a question: if I were to replicate those injuries, what would I do? Who would be technically capable of that?

My answer is that a well trained soldier or marine can inflict these injuries.

The link below has a table at end that shows what force can be developed in combat sports. Please note that these have rules, unlike military combat.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2017/04/27/heavyweight-punch-brutal-weapon-sport/

The figures presented in the link are in pounds not kg.  The super heavy weight professional delivers a force which is only just over 450kg.  I have already researched this and stated that only at the extreme end of human capability could Thibo’s depressed fracture be caused.  Kicks and knees could also do this, but it would be a very unlikely coincidence that the shape was in exact proportion to ball of thumb.  Also no human could deliver the forces required to cause Luda and Semyon chest injuries with a single blow as they were inflicted. 

The attacker theory doesn’t explain why Kolevatov was left alive?

Regards

Star man

Yes the table is in pounds. What I am saying is that if there are (few?) people able to deliver that kind of force from a stance, it proves my point that this kind of force is NOT beyond human capability.

Please bear in mind that your calculation of 450kg is one of a static force (although I agree with your measurements in principle, to me they look mathematically correct). Secondly, they are approximate. Real number would vary from person to person. To calculate the dynamic force (more applicable if we are talking a blow), force has to be multiplied by acceleration. In other words you need less force if you deliver the blow while moving, running etc. The other thing to consider is that those measurements in combat sports were made with boxing gloves that are designed to lower the damage on the impact. The 'attacker' could have used tactical gloves which are designed to fo the exact opposite.

The "single blow" theory to explain the fractures is highly speculative itself. I explained earlier that rib fractures can be relatively easily inflicted during CPR by medial staff by repeatedly pressing the rib cage... and that happens every day. Just ask any paramedic. For this variant, much less power is needed. As for skull injuries, we have no idea what was the 'weapon' that hit the head,but we should not exclude an object in someone else's hands.

To be honest, I see not a single piece of evidence that would conceivably ruled out human involvement in the tragedy. Occam's razor tells us there is no need to include entities of questionable existence if there is a realistic explanation to the parts of the event. To put them parts together, however, is another matter. There are still questions to be asked.

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

October 13, 2019, 02:13:19 PM
Reply #320
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Slobodin's head injury defies logic of falling down or being hit. It appears both sides of his head were equally crushed by a device, like a vice applied to his temples. The only comparison I can think of would be the movie Casino when Tony Spilatro puts a suspect into a head vice and applied pressure cracking his skull on each side. If Slobodin were hit one side and then the other, he would have had to been standing at the time of impact because either blow would have rendered him unconscious. This is a very strange injury. I think it is more strange than Lyudia's missing tongue and eyes.

He could have received this blow while on the ground.  A blow to one side and his head hits the ground on the other.

Regards

Star man

October 13, 2019, 03:45:12 PM
Reply #321
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


Lots of logs laying around....  wonder what one could do with a baseball bat, or a rock.

A nice heavy piece of ice would be my choice in such conditions. Perfect murder weapon never to be found after melting, no fingerprints, variable shape, probably little soft tissue damage due to thick fabric in between,no bruise hemorrhage developed due to low temperature...

The blows to the chest of Semyon and Lyuda happened while they were on the ground.  if they had been hit while they were standing then the force would have propelled them horizontally quite some distance in the same way a body would be propelled if hit by a vehicle.  We should expect to see other significant injuries if this were the case but we don't see any.  So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows. 

A very heavy flat or smooth rock between 150kg and 300kg dropped between 1 to 2 metres would be required to cause similar injuries.  It would be difficult to recreate those injuries with a log or piece of ice.  Yes blows from a piece of wood will break ribs but not 6 ribs at a time in a vertical straight line .  A single rib can take a force of about 270kg before it breaks and will absorb a lot of energy in the process.  The combined strength of 6 ribs would need a force in the region of 1.6 tonnes. Lyuda had 6 to 7 rib fractures on either side of her chest.  It's possible that the fractures could have been the result of two blows of similar force - one on each side.

For a log to create those injuries it would need to be heavy or moving very fast, but more interestingly it would need to make contact with all of the ribs that were broken which means it would have to hit the body at a very flat angle and in a vertical direction.  A person swinging a log or baton etc would not be able to hit the body at such a flat angle if they were standing over them or if the victim was standing up.   To recreate that angle with a log or baton they would have to be kneeling kind of over their feet or above their head and hit them flat on their chest.  It would require a very specific set of circumstances and a significant force, which I may need to do some calculations on.  But to be honest why would anyone kill three of the rav 4 with log or baton, spare Kolevatov the same fate and leave Semyon with a camera?  Why not just shoot them?  I suppose there is the option that Kolevatov himself used a log and killed them as an act of mercy to spare them from a slow death of freezing?  I don't think this is likely though.

Regards

Star man

October 13, 2019, 04:30:47 PM
Reply #322
Offline

gypsy



Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.

October 13, 2019, 09:53:45 PM
Reply #323
Offline

jarrfan


Regarding the camera, perhaps it was not visible at the time of the injuries, hidden by his clothing?

October 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
Reply #324
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

October 14, 2019, 03:14:38 PM
Reply #325
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
So it's more likely that they were on the ground when they received these blows.

Or it was the impact into the ground itself i.e falling onto rocks, out of tree etc.

Also, I am not suggesting that Semyon and Lyuda were hit with a bat/log or handheld rock. I was referring to the head injuries.

A fall could create the injuries, but there should be other injuries to limbs from a fall which are absent.  It very unlikely that all three would have no limb injuries.

A log or baton to Thibo's head is possible though.  But the other injuries would also need to be explained and this is not so easy.

Regards

Star man

October 14, 2019, 04:02:16 PM
Reply #326
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Gypsy, if we put the injuries to one side  - there is still a requirement to explain why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  Clearly he was alive and embraced Semyon in his final moments.  Kolevatov does not have the same significant injuries.  Why would intelligent humans not kill him in the same violent way?

Then there is Semyon's camera.  This could have had important evidence.  Why not take it?

Regards

Star man

I completely agree there is much more left to explain than just injuries. The variability of trauma is quite normal in open area combat and there are many techniques to inflict serious injuries. The alleged attacker obviously would not want to leave the scene looking like a 'crime scene' but rather leave the victims die due to hypothermia. Kolevatov could have been unconscious and only later he would get to Semyon. The different injuries can also be a result of a different way how they tried to defend themselves thus prompting a different reaction from the 'attacker(s)'.

My point is that we should not rule out deliberate killing of Dyatlov group. Violent attack of human(s) seems to be the common denominator of all 'technical' aspects of the case.

The motive remains unsolved, but we should look into something that explains the aftermath of the tragedy, most importantly actions of investigators and other people in charge involved in the incident. There are good theories on this forum, problem is that we don't have resources for serious verification.

I agree that we should not rule out a particular theory until we have conclusive evidence to the contrary.  I don't think that it is possible to rule out human attack yet, but the available evidence and pattern of events doesn't point very strongly in that direction IMO.  That doesn't mean there is no indirect human involvement either.

One thing that I will say is that thanks to your questioning approach to the injuries you may have helped provide me with another piece of evidence, or at least to exclude some options as more unlikely:

I have been looking at the injuries and the suggestion that they may have been caused by a person hitting them with a log or a club etc.  I have made some calculations around this type of attack to help put it into perspective.  If we take Lyuda's chest injuries for example.   Each or possibly even both sides of her ribs simultaneously took a single and very powerful blow.  As stated in a previous post to inflict those injuries would require a significant force with an energy in the range of 2400 joules.  The object delivering the force/energy would need to come into contact with all of the ribs fractured, or the sternum at a flat angle of no more that several degrees.  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man


October 15, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
Reply #327
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gypsy


  This would mean that Lyuda was almost certainly on the ground with the attacker kneeling or lowered down directly over her and the attackers body would be oriented in a vertical direction to Lyuda.  For argument sake if we say that the attacker has a club that weighs about 10kg or the equivalent of a 20ish pound sledge hammer ( which is a fairly heavy club but manageable).  Now to deliver the injury to one side of Lyuda's chest that person would have to throw the club over his head and bring it down flat onto Lyudas chest.  The person would need to apply a force in the region of 150kg to the handle end of the club accelerating it at 77m/s^2 or just under 8g applying a power of about 8.5kw over a short time of 0.3 seconds.  That's a lot of force and power.  I won't speculate at this point on whether a human is capable of doing this.  However, it would be entirely consistent with an attack from a very powerful ape like creature that would knock a person to the ground then stand over them raining down powerful blows squarely on their chest.

Regards

Star man

What about a larger object like a wooden log or a piece of ice somewhere from the ravine? An average person can quite easily lift 30-50 lilograms above their head / 2-2,2m/ and drop it onto somebody lying on the ground. That would be about 6.5m/s velocity thus dynamic force of circa 300kg which could be enough to cause rib or skull fractures (exact number would differ from person to person and can only be measured by experiment and forensic analysis).

I am lazy with calculations so I found a website that have a free fall calculator:)) https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/free-fall

Just one more point regarding the position on the ground while receiving the trauma. I would say it is easier to cause fracture to a person which is positioned against firm ground compared to standing. That is exaclty why rib fractures happen during resuscitation, the ribs have no space to extend even though they are quite flexible so they tend to break more easily. Also repeated use of force (like stomping or hammer fist) can cause rib fractures if the person is on the ground. I discussed this stuff with doctors and it should be taken into account that the force needed differs according to the position of the body (I have no specific numbers though). A hit in the rib cage of a standing person needs more power because part of that energy is 'spent' on the movement to the other side and more power is absorbed by tissue and bones if they have enaough space to stretch and extend.

October 16, 2019, 12:03:03 AM
Reply #328
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Star man

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The problem is the type of injury.  If you look at Lyuda’s left rib fractures you can see that they all line up which indicates a large force over a wide area.  Even if you assume the ribs weaken from repeated compression what is the likelihood of them all failing in a straight line?  Also the flail chest on the right requires a similar amount of force but it would have to be from a single fast blow IMO.  This aligns with the thoughts of the pathologists who examined the bodies.

A dropped 50kg load even with a 300kg impact is unlikely to break all those ribs simultaneously.  A club impact as discussed would require a force of about 150kg at handle.  It’s not credible.  Anyone can try this if they want but you need to it safely if you do.  If you have take a piece of wood or let’s say a  long sledge hammer and put the top on a table.  Hold the end of the handle at arms length and now push down until you are applying 150kg of force.  First unless weigh at least 150kg you would find that your feet will lift off the floor and you would need to push your body up at arms length.  That is the force that would need to be applied consistently throughout the swing.  Obviously you will not be able to do this and I Doubt that you will be able to move your body off the ground at all .

The only way would be to lift a 150 - 300 kg bolder and drop it on them from 1 to 2 metres

Regards
Star man




October 16, 2019, 01:58:18 AM
Reply #329
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gypsy


It could be measured in the similar way they calculate deformation in crash tests with cars and figurines... there could be a thin line between breaking and not breaking the ribs... Also we should consider the area of impact (smaller area usually inflicts more damage). I would really be interested what damage could a piece of wood do when hitting a rob cage from 2m height with the edge (considering the edge would be exactly the size that fits the pattern of the broken ribs)