October 19, 2019, 01:14:44 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: What really happened on the pass  (Read 913 times)

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July 25, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
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Star man

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First of all I would like to dedicate this theory and my views to the 9 tourists, their families,mall those unfortunate enough to have suffered the loss of these fine young men and women.  I would also like to send my condolences to the Russian people.

What happened on the pass was an accident and a tragedy.

The Dyatlov group were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So here goes.

Many of you may be familiar with my "low yield nuclear test" hypothesis.  Well I believe that the Dyatlov group unintentionally did get caught up in some kind of military test, which could well have been a low yield device.  But it was not the device itself that caused the demise of the group.

It was the test subjects that were used as a part of the test.  These were most probably fully grown adult male Chimpanzee(s) or Moutain Gorilla(s).

There was likely a lot of military activity in the sky around the mountain that night.  This would havE included dropping the test subjects off on the site.  The test subjects were probably being used to understand the effects of the weapon and to gauge these effects on humans.  Probably to understand the effects in the war theatre.

Somehow, these test subjects escaped from whatever confinement they had been in.  Note that these animals can bend iron bars with their bare hands.  They had probably already been exposed to whatever test had been planned.  They were probably contaminated with radiative material,mother were probably injured and hurting and frightened.  That made them exceptionally dangerous.

When they first approach the tent.  The group were probably not that scared.  They may have even been interested in seeing the cute chimps, and decided to take some photographs.  Semyon grabbed his camera. But then things took a sudden turn for the worse and the animals became aggressive and attacked one or more of the group.  Initially the attacks would have been  brief running and jumping at the group members.  Some of the group members fought back hence the evidence of the brawling.  The level of aggression escalates.  These animals are significantly stronger than humans.  Some of the group run inside the tent, and an ape blocks the entrance so they try to cut the fabric of the tent, and maybe even escape through the larger 86cm hole.  The group slowly and cautiously move away trying not initiate any further aggressive response from the apes.

The group slowly decent the slope, with no gear and in most cases no shoes.

The ape(s) follow cautiously behind them.  Note that a chimps bare foot doesn't look that much different from a humans, unless you look very closely and you are an expert you might never notice the difference.

They get to the cedar and they scramble up to find safety.  Some pull off the smaller branches so that can look up the slope towards the tent and the ape(s) to see what it/they are doing.  Yuris D has sever frost and clings on for dear life.  Yuris K is not in much better shape.  Some decide to collect fire wood on the tree and then climb down to build a fire while other stay on the tree to keep watch.  The two Yuris are in a bad way and by the time the fire is lit they haVe already lost too much body heat to survive - even with the fire.

Rustem may not have made it all the way down the slope.  His head injury is consistent with an ape attack. Knocked to the ground, pulled around by the legs, and beaten severely.  An ape can easily cause those injuries.

The two Yuris at the cedar die, and the others sadly remove their clothes to survive.  It's possible that 9 may have split up into smaller groups on the pass.  The tab 4 remove the clothes of the Yuris and start to build a shelter or a hide out, but the apes find them and attack.  Thibo, Lyuda and Semyon's injuries are all consistent with the same pattern of attack.  Knocked to the ground, pulled and dragged around - in Lyuda case very violently hence all the tissue loss on her face.  Same for Semyon.  The fractured ribs are consistent with massive blows from a very powerful animal.  But I have done the calls and these animals can do this.  This is why they camera was left around Semyon's neck.  The knife they had was probably embedded into one of the apes in an attempt to defend themselves.  I can't say what happened to the apes afterwards

Zina at some point was obviously side swiped by one of these apes at some point but later died of hypothermia.

Dyatlov got away and died of hypothermia.

The apes were probably tracked down and disposed of. 

Apologies for the lack of detail, but I don't have much time at the moment.

Regards

Star man

July 25, 2019, 06:48:27 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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And they didn't eat the pork laid out and all the rusks?   shock1

How would tropical apes deal with sub zero temps? 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

July 25, 2019, 10:41:59 PM
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Star man

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And they didn't eat the pork laid out and all the rusks?   shock1

How would tropical apes deal with sub zero temps?

These animals are mainly vegetarian.  Chimps will eat meat, but I suspect they simply were not hungry and had already been fed before the test.  The animals would have been frightened and if they had been subject to a test I suspect food wasn't on their minds.  They may have been suffering the effects of the test.

Regards

Star man

July 26, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
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gypsy


I think a lot of things fit the known evidence. It is also consistent with my thoughts about a weapon test (not explosives, but chemical, biological or nerve agent test). Chimps were used for experiments at least since 1920s in the Soviet Union, that would be plausible and is also tells us that there was not too much care about their "welfare". The animals would have been able to survive for several hours, which is sufficient for test results. Is also explains the subsequent events.

However, there still questions to ask.

Do you think Mansi people would not notice the "foreign" animals in the area?
What about the traces or hairs? I know some evidence was omitted from the case file. What I am aiming at is the large number of people involved in the search op.
What about the people overseeing the experiment? They must have been in a vicinity of the incident and be prepared to shoot the apes in case something goes wrong.

July 26, 2019, 04:34:05 AM
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Star man

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I think a lot of things fit the known evidence. It is also consistent with my thoughts about a weapon test (not explosives, but chemical, biological or nerve agent test). Chimps were used for experiments at least since 1920s in the Soviet Union, that would be plausible and is also tells us that there was not too much care about their "welfare". The animals would have been able to survive for several hours, which is sufficient for test results. Is also explains the subsequent events.

However, there still questions to ask.

Do you think Mansi people would not notice the "foreign" animals in the area?
What about the traces or hairs? I know some evidence was omitted from the case file. What I am aiming at is the large number of people involved in the search op.
What about the people overseeing the experiment? They must have been in a vicinity of the incident and be prepared to shoot the apes in case something goes wrong.

I don’t think the Mansi would have noticed the animals before the event and they possibly didn’t survive for that much longer than the humans.  We don’t really know the state of the animals health.  They would likely be better suited to surviving the cold for longer than the humans, but probably not indefinitely.

In the original search I suspect that people’s thoughts centred around some natural disaster so they probably were not looking for anything that unusual.  It’s only later when the rav 4 were discovered that things took a more sinister turn.

One other thing. It is possible that the animals were simply being released in the middle of nowhere as a means of disposing of them.  Left to die in the wild?

Regards
Star man

July 26, 2019, 09:19:44 AM
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Marchesk


So, radioactive apes in Siberia are responsible? This sounds like a combination of Yeti and military accident theories. I take it this is meant to account for the different oddities of the incident the other theories failed to account for. And then the coverup from on high because they thought it too ridiculous to blame the chimps?

July 26, 2019, 12:27:09 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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This mountain and on this particular night, was one of the most inhospitable places on the planet. Hard to believe tropical apes would find them up there on a barron whiteout landscape in Sub zero temps.  I find it hard to believe that anyone or anything would "find" them, yet alone stumble upon them. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

July 26, 2019, 03:53:05 PM
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Star man

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So, radioactive apes in Siberia are responsible? This sounds like a combination of Yeti and military accident theories. I take it this is meant to account for the different oddities of the incident the other theories failed to account for. And then the coverup from on high because they thought it too ridiculous to blame the chimps?

The theory does have its origins in the investigation of the Yeti theory.  And I suppose that the Yeti can't be ruled out either.

T might be worth rewinding the theory back in part a little and remove the more speculative aspects.  I know it is all speculation at the end of the day but there are elements in the above theory for which there is no real basis.  Radioactive military test apes is a bit of a leap.  In particular the radiative military test bit.  But the apes or ape like creature is still relevant.

Regards

Star man

July 26, 2019, 04:01:10 PM
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Star man

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This mountain and on this particular night, was one of the most inhospitable places on the planet. Hard to believe tropical apes would find them up there on a barron whiteout landscape in Sub zero temps.  I find it hard to believe that anyone or anything would "find" them, yet alone stumble upon them.

Ok.  As stated in my previous post It's difficult to know how these creatures may have got there.  Radioactive military test is a bit of a leap and there is no specific evidence to support this.  But I do think there is evidence to support that there was some kind of ape or apes there and that the group were attacked.  Maybe an exotic escaped pet(s), or an animal irresponsibly released into the wild, an animal that had escaped from a zoo.

It could have heard them or smelled them and was attacked that way.  Maybe this animal is what one of them saw and reported in the evening otorten?

Regards

Star man

July 26, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
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lucid-nonsense


I like your theory, thanks for taking the time to write it.

I guess my main problem is that animals are kinda scared of humans overall (we are the most dangerous game by far). Most animals won't attack a group of humans. Even tigers only kill people who are alone, always catching them unawares. The only exception I can think of is polar bear.

And sure, an unarmed human has no chance against a chimp, but they had several knives and axes. They could've easily killed a chimp. Plus if they had fought a chimp, someone would have a bite mark.


July 27, 2019, 12:24:49 PM
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Star man

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I like your theory, thanks for taking the time to write it.

I guess my main problem is that animals are kinda scared of humans overall (we are the most dangerous game by far). Most animals won't attack a group of humans. Even tigers only kill people who are alone, always catching them unawares. The only exception I can think of is polar bear.

And sure, an unarmed human has no chance against a chimp, but they had several knives and axes. They could've easily killed a chimp. Plus if they had fought a chimp, someone would have a bite mark.

Hi Lucid,

You make some good points about the animals.  But if there weren't any normal apes there, then maybe there was something else ape like?  This theory came about as a result of my investigation under the "Yeti" topic.  I think I will take the discussion back there as it may be more appropriate.

Regards

Star man

July 30, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
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sarapuk

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 I do not find this THEORY satisfactory. I was expecting a Theory along the lines of YETI involvement.
DB

September 06, 2019, 08:50:59 AM
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Star man

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This military test using Apes and probably Gorillas as test subjects is still alive I think.

One of the questions that has been asked is how these apes found themselves on Kholat Syakhl in the middle of winter.  Well in order to effectively test the biological effects of a new weapon you would likely want to use appropriate test subjects that are similar in anatomy to humans.  You would fly these subjects in and position them in key locations within the test zone.  You would need to secure the subjects in place so that you could retrieve them after the test and determine the capability of the weapon.  You may need to cage, tether or sedate the subjects.  If these subjects got free and found the Dyatlov camp- maybe attracted by sounds and smells it is possible that they could have attacked them and led to the events on the pass.

When it was time to retrieve the test subjects they would have realised that they were missing and tried to track them down at the earliest opportunity.  I suspect that they found the camp before the official search, recovered the subjects and made efforts to cover up the key evidence - the foot prints for instance.

Regards

Star man

September 06, 2019, 01:59:30 PM
Reply #13
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Nigel Evans


Some thoughts :-
  • Rustem probably died of internal bleeding.
  • The ravine four probably died under the snow.
  • Apes feet are more similar to human hands than human feet
It doesn't add up imo.



September 06, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
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Star man

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Some thoughts :-
  • Rustem probably died of internal bleeding.
  • The ravine four probably died under the snow.
  • Apes feet are more similar to human hands than human feet
It doesn't add up imo.

Hi Nigel,

Rustem appears to have received a severe blow to the head and possibly blows to the body.  I don't recall the autopsy saying that he died from internal bleeding but I will have to have a look, at that again.  It's been some time since I have read it.

The rav 4 have injuries consistent with an attack by a large powerful ape.  Except there are no bite marks. 

The foot prints may have been removed.

It may even be possible that the Dyatlov group were involved in the test?  On a mission for their country.  Why is that a possibility : They were off course in an exposed area, Thibo had two watches so maybe one of his roles was "time keeper". He wore two watches in case one of them stopped so that he could re-wind and reset the stopped watch and ensure they knew exactly what time it was to coordinate activities around and during the test.  Kolevatovs device - possibly an EMP measurement to establish how effective the weapon would be against electrical equipment.

I think it makes sense.

regards

Star man

September 06, 2019, 05:27:38 PM
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jarrfan


After seeing the  new evidence of a note indicating the military knew the hikers were missing on 2/15, this only confirms there was some kind of a chemical test in the area. (This is assuming the evidence is real).

The possibilities are that there was a chemical test, it blew the wrong way and the military were notified of the hikers close location and the military decided the best method to keep this secret would be to eliminate the hikers considering if they were contaminated and made it back to civilization, people would know what the military had done and the mishap would be front page news.

They immediately dispatched a unit to eliminate them with the military covered with gas masks so the unit would not be contaminated. This had to be done because eventually the students would all become ill with certain symptoms that could be traced to a particular chemical.

The fact that none of the families believed the fake story, one student stole some of the film to develop so he could see for himself what might have occurred and he was caught and had to return the film to the military.

The hikers escaped quickly seeing the gas masked unit and were scared senseless realizing they were contaminated. The military did not take into account the bond the hikers had and their skills and that is why they had to beat them to make certain they could not get back to civilization.

As far as the ape/Yeti theory it  is still possible, but I have a hard time believing an ape could survive in that cold weather for any amount of time since they are warm weather primates.

Keep the faith....

September 07, 2019, 05:23:38 AM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


Some thoughts :-
  • Rustem probably died of internal bleeding.
  • The ravine four probably died under the snow.
  • Apes feet are more similar to human hands than human feet
It doesn't add up imo.

Hi Nigel, Hi Starman, nice to speak to you again

Rustem appears to have received a severe blow to the head and possibly blows to the body.  I don't recall the autopsy saying that he died from internal bleeding but I will have to have a look, at that again.  It's been some time since I have read it.https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-95-103?rbid=17743"The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/. The pericardial sac contained 30 cm3 of bloody liquid." Afaik this fits with death from internal bleeding and that he continued to live for some time whilst lying down (snow underneath became ice). Imo he experienced a similar event to the rav4 but less intense (further away?) and was able to stagger some distance before collapsing.

The rav 4 have injuries consistent with an attack by a large powerful ape.  Except there are no bite marks. 
Well they are consistent with lots of things including being crushed under the snow by a tracked vehicle.

The foot prints may have been removed. The military activity theory requires a cleanup activity, snow rings hint at helicopters.

It may even be possible that the Dyatlov group were involved in the test?  On a mission for their country.  Why is that a possibility : They were off course in an exposed area, The best explanations for being off course is to (1) make up time, or (2) Semyon et al wanted to photograph something at the far ridge.

Thibo had two watches so maybe one of his roles was "time keeper". He wore two watches in case one of them stopped so that he could re-wind and reset the stopped watch and ensure they knew exactly what time it was to coordinate activities around and during the test.  The person on nightwatch wore two watches in case one stopped.

Kolevatovs device - possibly an EMP measurement to establish how effective the weapon would be against electrical equipment. Or possibly not

I think it makes sense. We'll have to agree to disagree, we can agree the military were involved, personally i like the SAM testing theory. It easily explains the orange skin as exposure to red nitric acid, one of the components of the fuel. I note Doroshenko's family have a similar theory :-
"I think that there were tests of new weapons and something went south. They were caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. Namely, it is connected with military equipment. No doubt about it. Nothing else. Avalanche is nonsense... The color of their skin confirms it... I just heard what my mother said - orange." - https://dyatlovpass.com/irina-rashevskaya-2?rbid=18461Regards Nigel.
regards

Star man


September 07, 2019, 12:18:08 PM
Reply #17
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Star man

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After seeing the  new evidence of a note indicating the military knew the hikers were missing on 2/15, this only confirms there was some kind of a chemical test in the area. (This is assuming the evidence is real).

The possibilities are that there was a chemical test, it blew the wrong way and the military were notified of the hikers close location and the military decided the best method to keep this secret would be to eliminate the hikers considering if they were contaminated and made it back to civilization, people would know what the military had done and the mishap would be front page news.

They immediately dispatched a unit to eliminate them with the military covered with gas masks so the unit would not be contaminated. This had to be done because eventually the students would all become ill with certain symptoms that could be traced to a particular chemical.

The fact that none of the families believed the fake story, one student stole some of the film to develop so he could see for himself what might have occurred and he was caught and had to return the film to the military.

The hikers escaped quickly seeing the gas masked unit and were scared senseless realizing they were contaminated. The military did not take into account the bond the hikers had and their skills and that is why they had to beat them to make certain they could not get back to civilization.

As far as the ape/Yeti theory it  is still possible, but I have a hard time believing an ape could survive in that cold weather for any amount of time since they are warm weather primates.

Keep the faith....

The thing about a human attack is you have to explain how the humans managed to inflict the injuries.

Gorillas live on mountains.  It not always warm.  They are probably better suited to the cold than humans.  They probably would not survive indefinitely though.  Need to look into this.

Regards

Star man

September 09, 2019, 02:02:56 AM
Reply #18
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Star man

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Just a bit more info on Gorillas and their ability to survive on Kholat Syakhl:

https://gorillafacts.org/where-do-mountain-gorillas-live/

Note the section that discusses their environment and ability to survive cold conditions:

They are adapted to places at such high altitudes because they have thicker fur compared to other primates, and have more of it. This helps them survive in subzero temperatures.

Regards

Star man




September 09, 2019, 05:37:57 AM
Reply #19
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Star man

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Some thoughts :-
  • Rustem probably died of internal bleeding.
  • The ravine four probably died under the snow.
  • Apes feet are more similar to human hands than human feet
It doesn't add up imo.

Hi Nigel, Hi Starman, nice to speak to you again

Rustem appears to have received a severe blow to the head and possibly blows to the body.  I don't recall the autopsy saying that he died from internal bleeding but I will have to have a look, at that again.  It's been some time since I have read it.https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-95-103?rbid=17743"The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/. The pericardial sac contained 30 cm3 of bloody liquid." Afaik this fits with death from internal bleeding and that he continued to live for some time whilst lying down (snow underneath became ice). Imo he experienced a similar event to the rav4 but less intense (further away?) and was able to stagger some distance before collapsing.

The rav 4 have injuries consistent with an attack by a large powerful ape.  Except there are no bite marks. 
Well they are consistent with lots of things including being crushed under the snow by a tracked vehicle.

The foot prints may have been removed. The military activity theory requires a cleanup activity, snow rings hint at helicopters.

It may even be possible that the Dyatlov group were involved in the test?  On a mission for their country.  Why is that a possibility : They were off course in an exposed area, The best explanations for being off course is to (1) make up time, or (2) Semyon et al wanted to photograph something at the far ridge.

Thibo had two watches so maybe one of his roles was "time keeper". He wore two watches in case one of them stopped so that he could re-wind and reset the stopped watch and ensure they knew exactly what time it was to coordinate activities around and during the test.  The person on nightwatch wore two watches in case one stopped.

Kolevatovs device - possibly an EMP measurement to establish how effective the weapon would be against electrical equipment. Or possibly not

I think it makes sense. We'll have to agree to disagree, we can agree the military were involved, personally i like the SAM testing theory. It easily explains the orange skin as exposure to red nitric acid, one of the components of the fuel. I note Doroshenko's family have a similar theory :-
"I think that there were tests of new weapons and something went south. They were caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. Namely, it is connected with military equipment. No doubt about it. Nothing else. Avalanche is nonsense... The color of their skin confirms it... I just heard what my mother said - orange." - https://dyatlovpass.com/irina-rashevskaya-2?rbid=18461Regards Nigel.
regards

Star man

Dyatlov injuries do actually make sense.  Rather than crushed ribs though maybe he had some general internal injuries from a powerful blow too.  It would also explain how he did not manage to get as far as Rustem or Zina ( assuming they were returning to the tent).

You are probably right about the watches and course change.  There is not much evidence then that they were involved.

The skin colour could be explained if chemicals were used to decontaminate the bodies before the autopsy to ensure the safety of those doing the autopsy?

Regards

Star man

September 09, 2019, 07:01:35 AM
Reply #20
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Loose}{Cannon

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Who would have thought an over achieving makeup artist would spawn a conspiracy theory.....
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

September 09, 2019, 07:28:50 AM
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Star man

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It is interesting that during the “expedition unknown “ programme recently shown starring our very own Teddy that they found higher than expected levels of radiation coming from a nearby tree.  I assume that this was mostly beta and gamma radiation.  Now the show talked about levels equivalent to x rays which is significant for a tree.  I don’t know exactly what they were measuring exactly but the levels should not have been above expected background unless the tree had been exposed to something significant.  Possibly a low yield nuke or another device spiked with radioactive tracers.  In any case if it was such a device you have to ask the question - how do you test the effectiveness of such a device!  Probably using apes which sadly were commonly used for such tests during this time.

Regards

Star man

September 11, 2019, 01:54:35 AM
Reply #22
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itWasTheCIA


I don't know. I measure radiation regularly. I'm not saying professionally, since my measurements are only used by me, but still, I do this on my job. Radiation just fluctuates and the device used to do the measurements on-site are somewhat unreliable. They are good in integrating radiation, but not that good in measuring the radiation just in time. At least the devices that I used, I guess there are good ones out there.

Since further analysis didn't provide any evidence of enhanced radiation, I wouldn't take this too seriously, though.

September 11, 2019, 08:48:51 AM
Reply #23
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Star man

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I don't know. I measure radiation regularly. I'm not saying professionally, since my measurements are only used by me, but still, I do this on my job. Radiation just fluctuates and the device used to do the measurements on-site are somewhat unreliable. They are good in integrating radiation, but not that good in measuring the radiation just in time. At least the devices that I used, I guess there are good ones out there.

Since further analysis didn't provide any evidence of enhanced radiation, I wouldn't take this too seriously, though.

Thanks for the input.  I think looking at relative abundance of strontium 90 would be a better indicator after 60 years.  I think they looked for relative abundance when they did a similar test at Hiroshima.  I don’t know what test the Expedition unknown team did on the core sample.

Regards

Star man

September 11, 2019, 08:53:44 AM
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Star man

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12469850/

This is the sort of thing I am talking about.

Update: had to modify link as was incorrect

Regards

Star man
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 01:47:13 PM by Star man »

September 13, 2019, 04:27:34 PM
Reply #25
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Star man

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Have watched some of the parts of the expedition unknown episode again and noticed this time that Josh was measuring micro sieverts on the Geiger counter instrument when looking at the trees.  The results reported on the programme increased from about 0.15 to .0.3 ish.  From what I have researched this is just a normal range of background readings, so not that significant.  In conclusion there doesn't appear to be sufficient evidence available in the local area to conclude if there was a low yield test.

Regards

Star man

September 13, 2019, 11:04:27 PM
Reply #26
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jarrfan


of radiation yes, but what about other chemicals perhaps used as an experiment?

September 14, 2019, 04:10:41 AM
Reply #27
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Star man

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of radiation yes, but what about other chemicals perhaps used as an experiment?

The tree ring samples did not produce any evidence of chemicals either.  I don’t think this means that they were definitely not used but it might mean that the likelihood of nuclear or chemical tests is lower.

September 16, 2019, 07:53:47 AM
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Jacques-Emile


No alpha emission, no nuclear bomb.

September 16, 2019, 08:35:23 AM
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Star man

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No alpha emission, no nuclear bomb.

Well I would say that if there is no spike of strontium in the tree rings then you could rule out any fallout on the pass and that the radiation on the clothes was not a result of such fallout.

I doubt that there would be much alpha radiation left after 60 years.  As far as I can tell it isn’t an indicator in the tree rings and I would think that most of it would have been washed away.

It does reduce the likelihood of a nuclear device.

Regards

Star man