October 19, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Quarreling among the men hikers  (Read 472 times)

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August 11, 2019, 07:08:26 PM
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jarrfan


On 1/28 group diary it states there was arguing among the guys. No mention  what  it was about.

On 1/28 Zina's diary states the  guys were digging and digging. She did not understand why it took so long. (Were they looking for gold? If they found pyrite, no quartz, it sounds like they were hoping to find gold as gold veins are usually found in quartz.

Unknown diary 1/30 Nick is joking about something.

It appears to me that the male hikers were up to something. Is it possible they did find some mushrooms while digging up the ground and said nothing about it to the girls? If one of the guys carried the mushrooms they would eventually have airborne spores because of the warmth.

I found no answer as to what they were arguiing about but it seemed to have a theme among the male hikers.

Did the Russian youths celebrate New Years at all? That could also be a clue as to whether there were any celebrating alcohol or schrooms with them on the trip. Just trying to cover all possibilities.

Jarrfan

August 12, 2019, 01:04:37 AM
Reply #1
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NkZ


Good point on the traces. Elk or reindeers are a good animal narrative for most points (and exploits leaving the tent in an orderly manner) save one: if the hard injuries occured in the tent, how did the rav 4 end there , knowing that they had only 20 minutes to live on ? Did they walk down as long as possible  (coherent with the foot traces) and where they then dragged by the others (who exhausted themselves too much doing so, even with a small fire: 3 attempted to go back to the tent, Semyon cuddled among the dead bodies for minimal heat, Jack London way) ?
Regards, nzk
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 01:10:17 AM by NkZ »

August 12, 2019, 11:30:54 AM
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jarrfan


Thank you for your response. The three that were not as injured may have been outside the tent looking at the sky and saw the stampede heading for them, got bumped around or the elk/reindeer saw them and jumped over them as they assumed the hands over head feta position, in an effort to escape. The rest were in the tent and received the life threatening blows from the hooves of the deer or elk. They used the knife to cut their way out. Adrenaline was rushing and fear was pounding. They may not have realized their pain until after they got out of the tent. If a cat or rabbit is hit by a car they seem to manage to run into the bushes before they drop dead even though they may have deadly injuries. The adrenaline makes that possible.

About the quarreling and whether the Russian youth celebrated New Years is still a question for me.

August 12, 2019, 11:54:51 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Celebrating New years in the beginning of February?
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 12, 2019, 12:27:59 PM
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sarapuk

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On 1/28 group diary it states there was arguing among the guys. No mention  what  it was about.

On 1/28 Zina's diary states the  guys were digging and digging. She did not understand why it took so long. (Were they looking for gold? If they found pyrite, no quartz, it sounds like they were hoping to find gold as gold veins are usually found in quartz.

Unknown diary 1/30 Nick is joking about something.

It appears to me that the male hikers were up to something. Is it possible they did find some mushrooms while digging up the ground and said nothing about it to the girls? If one of the guys carried the mushrooms they would eventually have airborne spores because of the warmth.

I found no answer as to what they were arguiing about but it seemed to have a theme among the male hikers.

Did the Russian youths celebrate New Years at all? That could also be a clue as to whether there were any celebrating alcohol or schrooms with them on the trip. Just trying to cover all possibilities.

Jarrfan

The so called arguing could be nothing more than a minor thing and not of any importance.
DB

August 12, 2019, 12:31:06 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Or....  Could be of a huge importance.    50/50
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 13, 2019, 02:57:23 PM
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sarapuk

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Or....  Could be of a huge importance.    50/50

So huge that they all decided to leave the safety of their Tent and risk DEATH ETC ETC.
DB

August 14, 2019, 04:33:32 AM
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Star man

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Have done some research into this as part of the topic I started on “simplest possible credible explanation “

Ask yourself this question.  If some kind of quarrel broke out that was so bad that they would leave their life boat “the tent “ and risk their lives or even try to kill each other - why didn’t they use knives?  There are no stab wounds  and certainly nobody died from stabbing or cuts and loss of blood.

There is evidence that they engaged in punching and kicking from the state of their hands - so if they had weapons why not use them on each other ?  They did use the knives to cut cedar and fir tree branches and clothes from their dead friends but not on each other.

Interestingly enough the knife that the rav 4 had was never found. 

My view is that the knife could well have been used in self defence and walked off stuck in whatever it was that killed them.

Regards
Star man

August 14, 2019, 06:06:54 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Not every scuffle turns into a gun fight. 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 14, 2019, 08:09:31 AM
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Star man

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Not every scuffle turns into a gun fight.

That is true.  In the Dyatlov case though we would be talking about a scuffle that ultimately led to their demise.  As the events unfolded the group would know the dangers.  So if it was a basic scuffle then they would not likely choose to leave the tent for that reason.  I can only envisage them leaving the tent without the proper clothing and equipment if it was not just a basic scuffle but something much more serious and life threatening.  In that case if they were fighting each other why would they not use weapons?  IMO they were a team and if they were fighting it is much more likely it was some other foe.

Regards
Star man

August 14, 2019, 08:54:07 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Only if you believe the more prominent injuries were cause by a human, and not the result of natural accidents such as falling etc. 

They could have scuffled with each other causing the superficial wounds to the hands and face, but the more serious injuries may have been of an accidental nature. 

I said it lives, I'll say it again and again.....  We are most likely looking at a SERIES of unfortunate events that contributed to the overall outcome.
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 14, 2019, 11:50:04 AM
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sarapuk

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If there was any quarreling amongst the Dyatlov Group then its highly unlikely to have escalated to the point where they were killing each other. There is nothing at the Tent Site to suggest a fight. Or at the Cedar Tree. Or at the so called Ravine. Or on the Slope between the Tent and the Forest. ETC ETC.
DB

August 14, 2019, 01:58:01 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Nope....  Just the bodies injuries.  Of course, then that would have to suggest outsiders attacked them.... Which would be a fight also.  Can't have it both ways stating they were attacked by someone or something, then claim there is no evidence it came from within because there's no evidence of an attack.   bat1

I don't subscribe to the idea that there is only evidence of a fight/attack if it fits one narrative, then dismiss the idea if you don't want it to fit another. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 02:03:49 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 14, 2019, 03:47:26 PM
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Star man

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Only if you believe the more prominent injuries were cause by a human, and not the result of natural accidents such as falling etc. 

They could have scuffled with each other causing the superficial wounds to the hands and face, but the more serious injuries may have been of an accidental nature. 

I said it lives, I'll say it again and again.....  We are most likely looking at a SERIES of unfortunate events that contributed to the overall outcome.

Based on my current line of investigation I see a pattern to the injuries that suggest the probability of them bring a result of an accident is extremely small.  It's a combination of the injuries, the force required to create those injuries and the lack of other types injuries which you would expect to be present if it was an accident.  Then on top of that there is the whole context of the events and the scenes.  The shape and force required for Thibo's head injury - identical shape to the ball of a thumb but larger.  The facial mutilation of Lyuda and Semyon.  Rustems double temporal muscle injury with diffuse bleeding and the skull fracture.  This could have been caused by someone boxing the sides of his head very hard, or just a blow to the head while he was lying on the ground.  If that blow was delivered by their own group members then it wasn't just a simple scuffle going on.  It's extremely unlikely that Rustem fell and hit both sides of his head - for a fall it is far more likely that he would have hit either the back or front of his head.  The flash light found 400 metres from the tent.  Another flashlight found on the tent.  It seems that it must have been dark when the events began and someone saw fit to take a flashlight with them.  So if it was dark and important to take a flash light, why drop it on the slope and not pick it back up?

What happened to the rav 4s knife?

When you start looking at it as series of unfortunate events, the odds keep stacking up and up against it.

Regards

Star man

August 14, 2019, 05:17:23 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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The facial mutilation of Lyuda and Semyon

Unless of course there was no such thing because they were in running water decomposing for months.   wink1


Quote
It's extremely unlikely that Rustem fell and hit both sides of his head

^^^^  Want to hear another personal story?  whist1  ^^^^

For some reason, a lot of emphasis is applied to the severity of some injuries implying that no human can cause them etc.  I wonder, is it possible to pick up a log the size of say, I dunno...... a baseball bat? How much damage can you do with that?  Would it look anything like the "baton" mark on Zina?   How about a rock....  can you smash in a skull with a football sized rock?  Would it look anything like Nikolay?   Why must he have 'fallen twice' in order to have received his injuries??  Looks to me like he was punched on one side, and fell on the other.  wink1


Quote
The flash light found 400 metres from the tent.

The one that we have no idea which way it was facing or how/why it was dropped...... literally know zilch about this flashlight, but MANY assumptions are made about it. 


Quote
Another flashlight found on the tent

Just like above we know nothing about what direction it was pointing... we do know however it was in the TURNED OFF position which is plenty of evidence proving it was NOT used as beacon or aid to find/return to the tent ect.  You mean that flashlight?


Quote
When you start looking at it as series of unfortunate events, the odds keep stacking up and up against it.

Not to me they dont.....  not at all. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:26:08 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 14, 2019, 11:00:51 PM
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Star man

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Quote
The facial mutilation of Lyuda and Semyon

Unless of course there was no such thing because they were in running water decomposing for months.   wink1


Quote
It's extremely unlikely that Rustem fell and hit both sides of his head

^^^^  Want to hear another personal story?  whist1  ^^^^

For some reason, a lot of emphasis is applied to the severity of some injuries implying that no human can cause them etc.  I wonder, is it possible to pick up a log the size of say, I dunno...... a baseball bat? How much damage can you do with that?  Would it look anything like the "baton" mark on Zina?   How about a rock....  can you smash in a skull with a football sized rock?  Would it look anything like Nikolay?   Why must he have 'fallen twice' in order to have received his injuries??  Looks to me like he was punched on one side, and fell on the other.  wink1


Quote
The flash light found 400 metres from the tent.

The one that we have no idea which way it was facing or how/why it was dropped...... literally know zilch about this flashlight, but MANY assumptions are made about it. 


Quote
Another flashlight found on the tent

Just like above we know nothing about what direction it was pointing... we do know however it was in the TURNED OFF position which is plenty of evidence proving it was NOT used as beacon or aid to find/return to the tent ect.  You mean that flashlight?


Quote
When you start looking at it as series of unfortunate events, the odds keep stacking up and up against it.

Not to me they dont.....  not at all.

Really good challenges.  I wouldn't want anyone to accept my proposals without those proposals being tested so this is really good thanks.

Lyuda's facial injuries could have been a result of decomposition in water.  This is true and something that I have believed myself for some time.  It still could be true.  But suspicion is raised when examining the other injuries and the strength/power required to have caused them.  Again these injuries may have been caused by a very large boulder I have done some calls on that and for Lyuda we would be looking at at rock 150kg lifted and dropped from at least 2m.  Or a rock 300kg dropped from 1m.  Not impossible, but still not an easy task and why would someone do that even if they could?  Then if you look at the types of injuries that people have got from an ape attack they include smashed bones and quite often mutilation of the face.  In this case of Lyuda we have iprimitive injuries incurred by a force greater than a human can physically do without using weapons combined with the facial injuries.  Same for Semyon.  The pattern of these injuries is similar, significant blows to the body and flail chest, coupled with facial injuries and cuts to the head as if they were dragged.  Thibo then just looks like he has received a significant blow or crush to the head.  None of them have other injuries like broken arms, wrists, ankles legs etc.  so even if it wasn't some huge ape then it doesn't look very likely that all three fell and got these injuries without any other common injuries from falling for instance.

The flashlight - my point with this is simple.  I am not assuming that they were used as beckons.  because if it was dark and they thought to take it with them it is unlikely that they would leave it on the slope.  Also, if it was dropped why not simply pick it up again, unless it was dropped and the person who dropped it did not want to risk stopping to pick it up.  Or they may have been tackled by something and when they had escaped just continued down the slope without picking up the flashlight.

Then add on the fact that it appears on the face of it that they used the cedar to climb to safety. 

Regards

Star man

August 14, 2019, 11:32:07 PM
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Star man

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Just a few more thoughts:

Given the above post about the likelihood of the injuries being a result of an accident.  If it is accepted (at some point) that they could not have been caused by an accident and by humans instead then an explanation would be required as to why Kolevatov was not dispatched in the same way?  He was found embarrassing Semyon and did not have significant injuries other than the cryptic description of his neck.  Why wasn’t Kolevatov taken out the same way?

Regards
Star man

August 15, 2019, 07:56:24 AM
Reply #17
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Loose}{Cannon

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they used the cedar to climb to safety.

They climbed a tree to get away from an ape??    shock1

I know gorillas have hair and all, but they are tropical animals. How do you suppose naked primates would survive in extreme low temps compared to humans?  Would they go into a survival mode in a valley somewhere, or would they climb a baron wind swept mountain in whiteout conditions to terrorize some humans, and not even be interested in the food?  I would tend to think if something attacked them, it would be just as adapt to the environment as humans, or better because whatever it was apparently won the wilderness survival test.

Again, I dont subscribe to the idea that injuries should fit a certain narrative or be consistent from one person to the next. We know what a fall from decent height onto boulders can cause each of the individuals injuries independently, and we also know the same applies to humans utilizing football sized rocks, and baseball bat sized logs.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 15, 2019, 08:42:08 AM
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Star man

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they used the cedar to climb to safety.

They climbed a tree to get away from an ape??    shock1

I know gorillas have hair and all, but they are tropical animals. How do you suppose naked primates would survive in extreme low temps compared to humans?  Would they go into a survival mode in a valley somewhere, or would they climb a baron wind swept mountain in whiteout conditions to terrorize some humans, and not even be interested in the food?  I would tend to think if something attacked them, it would be just as adapt to the environment as humans, or better because whatever it was apparently won the wilderness survival test.

Again, I dont subscribe to the idea that injuries should fit a certain narrative or be consistent from one person to the next. We know what a fall from decent height onto boulders can cause each of the individuals injuries independently, and we also know the same applies to humans utilizing football sized rocks, and baseball bat sized logs.   

I know it is crazy - what on earth would an ape or a Yeti be doing there.  Apes are not that bad with the cold- mountain gorillas are adapted to cold conditions as well as warm but Whether they could survive continuously in the environment on the pass is a good question.  Worth looking into.

I understand that if you look at each specific detail of the dpi like the injuries it is possible to think of different ways that they could have occurred .  The difficult thing is then stringing them all together to make a single narrative that makes sense.

If you park the crazyness that the cause of the dpi was an ape or yeti and just assume it was there - then ask the question does the narrative and evidence make sense and does it string together what we do know then I would say it does?

So all that leaves is proof that there was an ape or Yeti there.  Obviously it’s straight forward from there  lol2

Regards
Star man

August 15, 2019, 09:34:45 AM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Well.... a Yeti I can kinda wrap my head around its survive ability because it would be from there.... indigenous to the area.   It still wouldn't explain many things, like why no footprints?  They clearly recorded human footprints of the victims, do we believe they wouldn't be able to tell a knuckle dragger from a human?   Apes dont move like humans.

But until someone drags a Yeti or Bigfoot outta the woods with a bullet in its head and its all over international news and verified by authorities and scientists/doctors etc... meh.   
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 15, 2019, 03:48:08 PM
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Star man

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Well.... a Yeti I can kinda wrap my head around its survive ability because it would be from there.... indigenous to the area.   It still wouldn't explain many things, like why no footprints?  They clearly recorded human footprints of the victims, do we believe they wouldn't be able to tell a knuckle dragger from a human?   Apes dont move like humans.

But until someone drags a Yeti or Bigfoot outta the woods with a bullet in its head and its all over international news and verified by authorities and scientists/doctors etc... meh.   

The foot prints are very interesting.  In the radio grams there is a specific instruction to focus on the foot prints but from what I can tell there are only a handful of photos.  None of the prints appear to have been measured and there are no close up photographs of any of the bare prints? Why is there no matching of foot prints to hikers in the files?

 If it was a Yeti rather than an ape then it is possible it was not a knuckle dragger. Agree though that definitive proof of Yeti would be required to be certain.

On a separate note what are your thoughts on the shape of Thibo's skull injury and the fact that it matches the shape of a ball of a very large thumb?

Regards

Star man

August 15, 2019, 04:04:30 PM
Reply #21
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Loose}{Cannon

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If it was a Yeti rather than an ape then it is possible it was not a knuckle dragger. Agree though that definitive proof of Yeti would be required to be certain.

Then I wonder where all the reports of massive size footprints are?   Yeti does not float, does it? 
All theories are flawed.......    Get Behind Me Satan !!!

August 15, 2019, 10:41:22 PM
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Star man

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If it was a Yeti rather than an ape then it is possible it was not a knuckle dragger. Agree though that definitive proof of Yeti would be required to be certain.

Then I wonder where all the reports of massive size footprints are?   Yeti does not float, does it?

There is an assumption that Yeti foot prints are huge.  This could be based on numerous hoax.  Who is to say how big they really are.  The foot print evidence seems lacking, possibly deliberately.  Even Columbo knew you needto measure the prints and record the treads of the shoes?

Regards

Star man