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Author Topic: Personally Cruel  (Read 681 times)

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June 29, 2022, 10:32:29 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
For the sake of argument, let's just assume for a minute that one of the murder theories such as those advanced by Per Inge Oestmoen or Jean Daniel Reuss, is true.

When investigators look into a murder that was committed with particular personal cruelty, they generally assume that the murderer knew the victim, and the cruelty was a sign of an emotional or revengeful act. The DPI killings (assumption for this post) were terribly cruel and even more cruel if you believe that Krivonischenko was tied up in a tree and tortured, or that the eyes were removed while the victims were living.

Did these attackers know their victims? If not, why were the killings so cruel? Why not just bash them in the head and be done with it? What was the point?

« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 06:33:46 AM by amashilu »
 

June 29, 2022, 12:18:23 PM
Reply #1
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Ziljoe


Hi amashilu,

An interesting point. There is no hard evidence for them being tied up for certain. Also no evidence of the eyes being removed whilst alive or dead. The hikers with missing eyes were found in may with most of their upper half in running water. They were decomposing quite quickly. I believe this is the reason that coffins or body casks were requested by the pilot of the helicopter.

But the motive for murder is a factor.
 

June 29, 2022, 01:38:24 PM
Reply #2
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amashilu

Global Moderator
Dyatlov had deep abrasions on his ankles. I can't think of anything that would cause that, other than ropes against which he chafed ... can you?

... and yes, there is speculation that the eyes and mouth tissue simply decomposed in the stream.

But oh well, having your chest exploded or your legs purposely burned or your skull caved in qualify as personal cruelty (again, this is playing devil's advocate for the murder theory). Why such cruelty?


« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 10:50:48 AM by amashilu »
 

June 30, 2022, 11:56:10 AM
Reply #3
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Jean Daniel Reuss



................................................
Did these attackers know their victims? If not, why were the killings so cruel? What was the point?     


Did these attackers know their victims ?

Not so much. The attackers and the hickers had seen each other (i.e. had come into physical contact) only in Vizhay, for a few hours on 25 January (arrival:14.00)  and 26 January (departure:13.10).

To go into detail it is also possible that the hickers met (in the so called hotel) only one person: the sponsor (commander, client...) of the extermination who paid contract killers and these attacked on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl at about 8 p.m. on 1 February 1959 (unless it was the morning of 2 February  ??).



Why were the killings so cruel ?

I am preparing posts to introduce the idea that in Vizhay, on 25 January, the hickers met (clashed with) a kind of small mafia.
I intend to intervene in more detail in :
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Possible sexual assault?
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death

In the meantime (perhaps for a long time) I leave you some preliminary notes.


°°°°°°
Why were the killings so cruel?  ---> Because in human societies a group that wants to conquer or keep the power had, and still has, often recourse to acts of a terrifying violence to impose itself.

Thus in history the tortures of the cruxifiction and the wheel were organised by the official powers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel


°°°°°°
Kolgomorova : We arrived in Vizhay. First we stopped at the same club where we were 2 years ago. Then we were taken to the hotel".

The history of the USSR shows that in 1957-58, in the Ivdellag and Vizhay region, all the conditions for the establishment of a small local mafia were present.

In particular, the dismantling of Gulag - poorly organised, but ordered by Krushchev - had freed criminals and gangsters (and kept morally blameless citizens in prison or under house arrest).[/b]

Like the "big" mafia in Sicily or Chicago, the small Vizhay mafia was a clandestine and fearsome association of unscrupulous individuals.
(And some of them, who had long remained powerful and cruel guardians of the Gulag camps, had become perverted).
Its members, united by common concerns and interests, supported each other by all sorts of means.

In the case of the small Vizhay mafia the common points could be: hatred of communism, of the Russian nation, of the central government of the Kremlin.........

By the period photos we have:
https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay
we will probably not learn much, as those who had a responsibility in the DPI certainly avoided being photographed.


°°°°°°
The members of the Dyatlov group were not interested in politics and were therefore totally unaware of the situation in Vizhay.

Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.

However, they could be seen as propagandists controlled by the Kremlin, via the UPI, and therefore as enemies of those who organised the attack on the Kholat Syakhl slope.

The mafias, political entities competing with the state for the monopoly of the legitimate exercise of violence, demonstrate their power through intimidation and, if necessary, terrorism.

The mafias use systemic violence to achieve social cohesion. Systemic violence, employed by a small number of leading criminals, provides panopticon control of populations.

Indeed, thanks to the violence that breaks down solidarity and isolates individuals who have become their own censors, the mafia is at the centre of society.

When a citizen does not respect the rules of the mafia, he must be murdered in order to make mafia justice more powerful than the laws of the legal state.




What was the point ?

The aim of the attackers was to show to everyone the extent of their power and the terrible fate that was promised to those who taunted them (even unconsciously) or who did not respect their laws.

But the attackers were fooled by the Kremlin, which succeeded in imposing the idea that it was not a homicide.

Whether it was in 1959 or in 2020, the aim of the Soviet or Russian authorities, was and still is, to hide the incompetence of various administrative structures (PCSU, Sport Club, Route Commission...) and the inefficiency of the KGB, which had a share of responsibility in sending in fact 9 exemplary citizens to their deaths.

However, the KGB reacted quickly by opening an investigation on 6 February 1959. I do not know what were the consequences of this late awareness. disovow232 (KGB/Radiation/Military involvement --> Something from a KGB officer)  alludes to it but is not very clear....

Afterwards, the usual propaganda technique used to cover up this affair, which is admittedly of little importance, consists of launching, through the intermediary of people who are often sincere, a certain number of more or less plausible lures: Teleportation, UFO, Infrasound, Yeti...etc.


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 30, 2022, 04:05:31 PM
Reply #4
Online

Ziljoe



................................................
Did these attackers know their victims? If not, why were the killings so cruel? What was the point?     


Did these attackers know their victims ?

Not so much. The attackers and the hickers had seen each other (i.e. had come into physical contact) only in Vizhay, for a few hours on 25 January (arrival:14.00)  and 26 January (departure:13.10).

To go into detail it is also possible that the hickers met (in the so called hotel) only one person: the sponsor (commander, client...) of the extermination who paid contract killers and these attacked on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl at about 8 p.m. on 1 February 1959 (unless it was the morning of 2 February  ??).



Why were the killings so cruel ?

I am preparing posts to introduce the idea that in Vizhay, on 25 January, the hickers met (clashed with) a kind of small mafia.
I intend to intervene in more detail in :
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Possible sexual assault?
Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death

In the meantime (perhaps for a long time) I leave you some preliminary notes.


°°°°°°
Why were the killings so cruel?  ---> Because in human societies a group that wants to conquer or keep the power had, and still has, often recourse to acts of a terrifying violence to impose itself.

Thus in history the tortures of the cruxifiction and the wheel were organised by the official powers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel


°°°°°°
Kolgomorova : We arrived in Vizhay. First we stopped at the same club where we were 2 years ago. Then we were taken to the hotel".

The history of the USSR shows that in 1957-58, in the Ivdellag and Vizhay region, all the conditions for the establishment of a small local mafia were present.

In particular, the dismantling of Gulag - poorly organised, but ordered by Krushchev - had freed criminals and gangsters (and kept morally blameless citizens in prison or under house arrest).[/b]

Like the "big" mafia in Sicily or Chicago, the small Vizhay mafia was a clandestine and fearsome association of unscrupulous individuals.
(And some of them, who had long remained powerful and cruel guardians of the Gulag camps, had become perverted).
Its members, united by common concerns and interests, supported each other by all sorts of means.

In the case of the small Vizhay mafia the common points could be: hatred of communism, of the Russian nation, of the central government of the Kremlin.........

By the period photos we have:
https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay
we will probably not learn much, as those who had a responsibility in the DPI certainly avoided being photographed.


°°°°°°
The members of the Dyatlov group were not interested in politics and were therefore totally unaware of the situation in Vizhay.

Igor Dyatlov has a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.

However, they could be seen as propagandists controlled by the Kremlin, via the UPI, and therefore as enemies of those who organised the attack on the Kholat Syakhl slope.

The mafias, political entities competing with the state for the monopoly of the legitimate exercise of violence, demonstrate their power through intimidation and, if necessary, terrorism.

The mafias use systemic violence to achieve social cohesion. Systemic violence, employed by a small number of leading criminals, provides panopticon control of populations.

Indeed, thanks to the violence that breaks down solidarity and isolates individuals who have become their own censors, the mafia is at the centre of society.

When a citizen does not respect the rules of the mafia, he must be murdered in order to make mafia justice more powerful than the laws of the legal state.




What was the point ?

The aim of the attackers was to show to everyone the extent of their power and the terrible fate that was promised to those who taunted them (even unconsciously) or who did not respect their laws.

But the attackers were fooled by the Kremlin, which succeeded in imposing the idea that it was not a homicide.

Whether it was in 1959 or in 2020, the aim of the Soviet or Russian authorities, was and still is, to hide the incompetence of various administrative structures (PCSU, Sport Club, Route Commission...) and the inefficiency of the KGB, which had a share of responsibility in sending in fact 9 exemplary citizens to their deaths.

However, the KGB reacted quickly by opening an investigation on 6 February 1959. I do not know what were the consequences of this late awareness. disovow232 (KGB/Radiation/Military involvement --> Something from a KGB officer)  alludes to it but is not very clear....

Afterwards, the usual propaganda technique used to cover up this affair, which is admittedly of little importance, consists of launching, through the intermediary of people who are often sincere, a certain number of more or less plausible lures: Teleportation, UFO, Infrasound, Yeti...etc.




Hi Jean Daniel Reid's,

Do you think the Kremlin coverd up the murders to dilute the power of these mafia groups?
 

July 01, 2022, 02:34:14 PM
Reply #5
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss


                     Reply #4
..........................
Do you think the Kremlin coverd up the murders to dilute the power of these mafia groups?

Yes, that is about it, the cover-up by the central government in Moscow was intended to :
1) - to weaken the small Vizhay mafia ;
2) - but also to conceal from the eyes of all, and also from the foreign special services, the shameful failure of the KGB which had revealed itself incapable of protecting the precious lives of the nine hickers.

What I call the Vizhay-Ivdel mafia is perhaps not a mafia in the strict sense. It would be rather a proto mafia or a mafia in development.
In short, a gatheringp of people engaged in illicit activities - several commentators mention gold trafficking.

Charles  has just provided some excellent general links on this topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_(favors)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mafia#1917%E2%80%931991:_Soviet_era
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Grossman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_criminal_tattoos


I will soon be continuing in :
    Victims --> Lyudmila Dubinina --> Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg5839#msg5839

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
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