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Author Topic: The Cedar Then/Now  (Read 30882 times)

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November 24, 2017, 01:34:00 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Figured the interest was there for this to be posted.  I have on file a few pics of the cedar as seen in recent years.  Please pay attention to the reference circles I applied in red.  It has not been cut down.  thumb1

Please see here for the Case file on the scene.
http://forum.dyatlov-pass.com/index.php?topic=56.0





















































Misc broken branches.... some seemingly pretty old judging by the amount of bark grown around the base.



























« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:04:19 AM by Teddy »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

April 21, 2018, 02:58:41 PM
Reply #1
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CalzagheChick


It absolutely blows my mind how much that tree has grown in 60 years! It's definitely the same tree, but it's gained anywhere from 33-50% its original size.

Do you think after all these years there is ANY forensic evidence left on the tree? It's more a question for my morbid curiosity as I don't know at this point if I will ever make it to Kholat Sykhl in my lifetime. I'm poor.
 

October 09, 2018, 02:56:11 PM
Reply #2
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Forensic evidence left on the tree, thats a good question. There may have been originally, that is at the time of the event. But after so long, WATER would surely have destroyed any evidence on the tree.
DB
 

October 09, 2018, 03:00:00 PM
Reply #3
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Forensic evidence left on the tree, thats a good question. There may have been originally, that is at the time of the event. But after so long, WATER would surely have destroyed any evidence on the tree.
DB
 

August 12, 2019, 02:15:43 AM
Reply #4
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Tuffknorf


Those are several thick broken branches. One could have been broken accidentaly but serveral no. Someone deliberately broke those off.
Gather firewood? Tho they had an ax at the tent. Cracked ribs becouse of falling?
 

August 12, 2019, 12:33:06 PM
Reply #5
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Those are several thick broken branches. One could have been broken accidentaly but serveral no. Someone deliberately broke those off.
Gather firewood? Tho they had an ax at the tent. Cracked ribs becouse of falling?

Its debatable like so many things in this Dyatlov Case. But I would have thought it was possible for someone to break several branches while climbing up or down a Tree.
DB
 

August 24, 2019, 05:52:53 PM
Reply #6
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jarrfan


I mentioned this is another section, from reading notes it is stated the bodies were about 3 m or 9 feet from the fire? Why would they be that far from the fire? Also, are they certain the cedar tree branches were used for climbing or is it possible they were used to tie, pull up the tied hands of the people for interrogating, if they were in fact attacked? The higher branch was about 15 feet up in 1959 as stated in notes. I am just wondering if the attackers used the tree for interrogations of half the hikers and the other hikers were kept down at the ravine where they started making the den in case they would be let go? This might explain the knuckle wound in the one hiker which was found in his mouth, severe terror.

Separation and interrogation is standard police practice to gather stories without the other people being able to hear the answers and then the interrogators may have gathered together to see who said what and at that point the ravine hiker sneaked up and took some clothing off of the already dead hikers in hopes they could still survive?

It was mentioned in the scene there were fir branches and dry branches which would have been better for fire and it was wondered why the hikers cut the cedar tree branches? Maybe they did not.

Is it also possible after interrogating the hikers and breaking the cedar branch, they used that as a weapon against the ravine 4? The knife was not found by the cedar tree so either the interrogators had it or it was lost somehow.

I am assuming this as a theory that Seymon was planning on fleeing the country with help from people in the town Orotenen? It is a 1,776 mile distance to the Finnish border from there and maybe he was to contact someone when he got to Ortonen, but his plan was discovered or admitted by someone who said they would assist him cross to the border? If he was a tourist guide, he probably knew the maps of most of the areas including to the borders.

Just trying to figure on any scenarios....
 

October 19, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
Reply #7
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JohnnyNumber6


Loose Cannon Thanks for the post.  Do the "now" set of images contain geolocation info?  I'm just wondering what the Lat/Long coordinates of the Cedar.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 02:35:48 PM by JohnnyNumber6 »
 

October 19, 2019, 02:32:48 PM
Reply #8
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jarrfan


As far as the  cedar tree goes, someone climbed it up to 15 feet which is quite a way up a tree. The searchers said there were 3 or 4 branches of cedar underneath one of the dead hikers. I am wondering now if they were attempting to use the cedar limbs for a den instead of for burning, and if any of the cedar limbs were in the den that was found? Just a thought...
 

October 20, 2019, 02:45:38 PM
Reply #9
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Loose Cannon Thanks for the post.  Do the "now" set of images contain geolocation info?  I'm just wondering what the Lat/Long coordinates of the Cedar.

Not that I have, but I believe the coordinates are already plotted into the map here... http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=40.msg89#msg89
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

January 20, 2020, 04:41:15 PM
Reply #10
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Angelinlc


Forensic evidence left on the tree, thats a good question. There may have been originally, that is at the time of the event. But after so long, WATER would surely have destroyed any evidence on the tree.

Not on the TREE... But IN the tree, they form rings inside and anything in or above the ground would eventually be taken up through the roots and it has showed some 20 to 30 years later in the DNA of the tree. The scientist can go back to the exact year of a crime... Trees have solved a lot of mystery's with their DNA and hidden truths that lie within them.
 

January 21, 2020, 11:23:56 AM
Reply #11
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Forensic evidence left on the tree, thats a good question. There may have been originally, that is at the time of the event. But after so long, WATER would surely have destroyed any evidence on the tree.

Not on the TREE... But IN the tree, they form rings inside and anything in or above the ground would eventually be taken up through the roots and it has showed some 20 to 30 years later in the DNA of the tree. The scientist can go back to the exact year of a crime... Trees have solved a lot of mystery's with their DNA and hidden truths that lie within them.

I think thats a big ask  !  ?  I think that the ground would need to be very saturated with something in order for that something to work its way into the RINGS as you seem to suggest.
DB
 

May 12, 2020, 01:55:06 AM
Reply #12
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sparrow


Why would the hikers build a fire if they were supposed to be hiding from someone/something at the tent.  They would be seen I am assuming.

The branches do look like they were broken off( and not cut).  I could not see where there were any real straight edges on the branches but it has been a long time since this happened.

At the den, they do mention one cedar branch if I remember right.
 

May 13, 2020, 02:32:01 AM
Reply #13
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sparrow


 

May 16, 2020, 02:44:09 PM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Why would the hikers build a fire if they were supposed to be hiding from someone/something at the tent.  They would be seen I am assuming.

The branches do look like they were broken off( and not cut).  I could not see where there were any real straight edges on the branches but it has been a long time since this happened.

At the den, they do mention one cedar branch if I remember right.

One of the many mysteries of this Dyatlov Case. Why did they build a fire  !  ?  To keep warm  ! ? To use it as protection from something ! ? To use it to light up the place ! ? To cook ! ?  Why.
DB
 

October 21, 2020, 01:51:06 AM
Reply #15
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Beluga1303


Josh Gates did a drill test on the tree during the expedition.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:45:54 AM by Beluga1303 »
Someone knows the answer. But will we ever find out?
 

February 11, 2022, 05:14:29 PM
Reply #16
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GlennM


Plenty of ground level saplings to be used for firewood at the fire pit. No need to scale a tree when so much ismcloser at hand. Too, broken branch looks to have scorch markings. As mentioned, no cut marking but tearing is likely. I discount snow collapse of the branch because there are so many above it to protect it. Why did hikers go so far in forest to shelter? Cedar is across a stream. What a puzzle this is.
 

June 05, 2022, 07:29:48 AM
Reply #17
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amashilu


I've been reading and watching videos on this for several weeks and only maybe 2 times have I come across the question, why did they build a fire? so thank you to the person who suggested that, because I keep wondering it also. Probably it is not questioned much because it seems obvious you would need a fire to survive. But of course if they were trying to hide from attackers, they wouldn't build a fire. Is it possible the hikers did not build the fire, but the attackers did? Someone has suggested that these hikers were interrogated, at least 3 of them had ankle abrasions that it has been suggested indicates they were tied, 2 military puttees and one sash were found that did not belong to the group, one of the hikers bit off part of his own finger; so does the scenario fit the evidence, that the attackers marched them to the cedar tree, tied them up, built a fire (for themselves), and interrogated them one by one? I am trying to be sure to not make anything up, but only to use what evidence was found and bring it together like a puzzle. What would they be interrogating for?  nea1
 

June 06, 2022, 02:13:24 PM
Reply #18
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Jean Daniel Reuss


              Reply #17
...........................
2 military puttees and one sash were found that did not belong to the group,
...........................

•••  issue : why did they build a fire ?
-->  answer : probably to avoid being too cold (and perhaps even to avoid freezing to death) since they were at the base of the Cedar while wearing, for the most part, clothes that were not warm enough.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : Is it possible the hikers did not build the fire, but the attackers did ?
-->  answer : Yes, it is possible. Have a look at what EBE wrote:

     EBE :  Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM -->   Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775
«.....I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....»

     EBE :  Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; January 13, 2022, 02:02:14 PM -->   Reply #28
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg17016#msg17016
«..... I doubt that it [the fire] was lit for the purpose of attracting the Dyatlov group..........»

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : 3 of them had ankle abrasions that it has been suggested indicates they were tied ?
-->  answer : It seems that it was only Dyatlov who had his ankles tied.
This is probably because the attackers wanted to make sure that Dyatlov could not move, as he did not appear to be completely knocked out and unconscious.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : ...these hikers were interrogated.  What would they be interrogating for ?
-->  answer : The question asked by the attackers was :
Where are the four hikers who escaped us and who we can not find ?
(the four hikers who escaped us = Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo, Dubinina,  who had hidden in the Den).

Look at what I wrote 2 years ago, which is still valid:
   Jean Daniel Reuss :  Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass > Krivonischenko biting his hand
June 11, 2020, 11:53:29 PM  --> Reply #4
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=408.msg9561#msg9561

Recently, on 10 February 2022, on the website :

https://www.kp.ru/daily/27358/4539638/

   Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
The following users thanked this post: Per Inge Oestmoen, amashilu

June 07, 2022, 06:23:33 AM
Reply #19
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amashilu


              Reply #17
...........................
2 military puttees and one sash were found that did not belong to the group,
...........................

•••  issue : why did they build a fire ?
-->  answer : probably to avoid being too cold (and perhaps even to avoid freezing to death) since they were at the base of the Cedar while wearing, for the most part, clothes that were not warm enough.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : Is it possible the hikers did not build the fire, but the attackers did ?
-->  answer : Yes, it is possible. Have a look at what EBE wrote:

     EBE :  Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM -->   Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775
«.....I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....»

     EBE :  Murdered > Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events; January 13, 2022, 02:02:14 PM -->   Reply #28
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg17016#msg17016
«..... I doubt that it [the fire] was lit for the purpose of attracting the Dyatlov group..........»

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : 3 of them had ankle abrasions that it has been suggested indicates they were tied ?
-->  answer : It seems that it was only Dyatlov who had his ankles tied.
This is probably because the attackers wanted to make sure that Dyatlov could not move, as he did not appear to be completely knocked out and unconscious.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
•••  issue : ...these hikers were interrogated.  What would they be interrogating for ?
-->  answer : The question asked by the attackers was :
Where are the four hikers who escaped us and who we can not find ?
(the four hikers who escaped us = Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo, Dubinina,  who had hidden in the Den).

Look at what I wrote 2 years ago, which is still valid:
   Jean Daniel Reuss :  Theories Discussion > Altercation on the pass > Krivonischenko biting his hand
June 11, 2020, 11:53:29 PM  --> Reply #4
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=408.msg9561#msg9561

Recently, on 10 February 2022, on the website :

https://www.kp.ru/daily/27358/4539638/

   Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.


Thank you, Jean Daniel, I had not seen the video of the re-enactment of the fire before. That is pretty amazing, that the burns to the fake leg were exactly like those of Krivonishenko.
 

June 08, 2022, 05:02:54 AM
Reply #20
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Charles


Very interesting re-enaction, indeed ! Thank you.

But why use a giant hammer ?



When the stream was full of boulders ?
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 08, 2022, 01:59:29 PM
Reply #21
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Jean Daniel Reuss


                                 Reply #20  
............................
But why use a giant hammer ?
................................

Indeed, the attackers used essentially cunning, deception, treachery and surprise.
The attackers had no need for firearms or giant hammers....


 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
You probably know by now that I support my TOKEB theory, which is also inspired by Vietnamka  (Murder Indead - Reply #61).

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=110.msg3058#msg3058

Citation :
 «.......But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot  ?
the victims were  injured with one blow. Simply  and effectively.....»


 - Rather a first decisive blow by surprise and treachery, followed by a large number of other blows if necessary. -

 «......But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot

the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.
[Fire]  weapons were strictly prohibited in USSR except for hunting weapons. If it is correct assumption,  we can exclude some categories of people attacker did not belong :
1) sololders (army, KGB)
2) hunters
...........................»




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I have made numerous (rather several) attempts, trial runs and tests of hitting with blunt objects : maple branches of different dimensions, and reshaped with an axe.

As I still do not have any human or large mammal skulls boxes at my disposal, I hit old furniture out of order, to break them into small pieces.

And here is the most significant result of my tests: The main weapons of the 3 attackers looked like this picture :


.
Thus, the blunt objects used by the attackers were lighter and more easily transported than the giant hammer that appears on the web page of Dmitry Kireev.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I started by reasoning on a geometric cylinder made of wood.

Da: Diameter = 7 centimeters.
L: Length = 1 meter = 100 centimeters.
d: Density of wood = 0.6 (approximately) for birch or cedar (Pinus sibirica).

The theoretical weight of such a cylinder in these wood is therefore : 2309.07 grams

(pi/4) * Da² * L * d = 2309.07 grams2309.07 grams




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But, to be able to hit hard (with one or two hands) a good grip is essential.

It is necessary to reshape the branch of birch or cedar of 1 meter long, in order to obtain a diameter Df included between 30 to 50 mm on a part of its length, according to the manufacturers of handles of sleghammer and knocker felling axe.
         ("Cylindrical grasp" case on the schematic below).



Personally, I am 1.75 meters tall, and in the case of cylindrical tool handles, the diameter Df = 35 millimeter suits me best.

The blunt objects carried and used by the attackers were not perfect cylinders, but had a part reshaped to have the diameter Df = appromatively about 35 millimeters, allowing a good grip.

As a result, in the framework of my theory TOKEB it is rational to estimate that :

               the blunt objects (big stick, baton, club...) used by the attackers had a weight of 2 kilograms.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Let's compare the blunt objects carried and used by the attackers : length 100 cm and   weight = 2 kiloggrams
with a PPSh-41 with its 35-round magazine: length 84 cm and    weight = 4.3 kilograms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSh-41 


The big stick shots are silent, which allows, at least at the beginning, to fully play the treachery and the surprise to the advantage of the attackers.

On the contrary, at the first shot heard, and if it is not mistaken for the sound of a firecracker announcing joyful festivities,
the deadly situation becomes clear and the merciless fight starts instantly.
(And then possibility for the hikers to organize instanly their counter attack).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But the great advantage of these reshaped "piece of wood" is that it will go unnoticed during an unannounced check by the Soviet police or by the KGB, while this is not the case for a PPSh-41 or for any other firearm.

Fireweapons  and ammunition were strictly prohibited in USSR except for the hunters who were, themselves, tightly supervised.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 08, 2022, 02:21:34 PM
Reply #22
Offline

Charles


But the great advantage of these reshaped "piece of wood" is that it will go unnoticed during an unannounced check by the Soviet police or by the KGB, while this is not the case for a PPSh-41 or for any other firearm.

Do you mean they had to travel by train or by bus with their weapons ? Coming from some city ? And followed the hikers untill the deep of the Taiga ? To kill them all ?

I can accept the idea that productivity in the Soviet Union was not the one of best, but here, the operation you seem to describe beats all records of low productivity... Having somebody taken out was easy and efficient in Soviet Union, it was a kind of national speciality, with long experience of improving methods and efficiency. They had the choice of start: treason, spying, sabotage, counter-revolutionary activity... then got  forced confession and pronounced any convenient sentence. Millions were treated this way. It was easy, everybody knew about these kinds of disappearance and kept quiet. The operation you describe is such a complication, such efforts for a result it was so easy to obtain the traditional way...

Fireweapons  and ammunition were strictly prohibited in USSR except for the hunters who were, themselves, tightly supervised.

In Moscow suburbs maybe, but not in the Urals mountains which were a kind of Far East... I posted answers to you at: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17756#msg17756
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 03:48:21 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 22, 2022, 04:38:34 AM
Reply #23
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Per Inge Oestmoen



   Dmitry Kireev carried out his own reconstruction of a possible method of torture of krivonishenko by the means of fire.



Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:

I fully agree with you in the above. It is very  good reasoning. It is very likely that Krivonishenko was indeed tortured.

Why was he tortured? Perhaps it was to find out where the others had fled.

Remember, the attackers must have chased the students out from their tent in order to let the cold do the "job" so that it would look like an accident. However, because of a sudden rise of temperature that failed. Therefore the attackers had to hunt down those who had fled. It would be natural for the killing squad to torture the first students they caught, to force them to say where the others were hiding. That is a probable reason for the use of torture.
 

June 23, 2022, 02:43:35 PM
Reply #24
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Jean Daniel Reuss




                          Reply #22
.................................
Do you mean they had to travel by train or by bus with their weapons ? Coming from some city ?
...........................


You may not have realised that another side benefit of a "blunt object" is that you do not need to transport it: you make it almost immediately on the spot.

With birch trees nearby you just need to choose one with a diameter of between 8cm and 11cm, (see Reply #21).

For example, this one was photographed by the Unknown Expedition near the Cedar (photo N° 70).


With a small axe, anyone of average skill can make an excellent "blunt object", big stick, club,... (good grip - 1 meter long - 2 kg) in 10 minutes (or say 30 minutes if he is clumsy) with which you can fracture all the human skulls that you want.

For bear skulls which are thicker, I do not know...


The "blunt object" is a free weapon, which uses no ammunition and is throwable after use.

In case of control: nothing in the hands, nothing in the pockets, I am white as snow.

In 1959, when the internal difficulties caused by the ill-organised dismantling of the Gulag were multiplying, I think that neither the Soviet police nor the KGB were joking about firearms permits.

Besides, all regimes, especially if they are authoritarian, carefully monitor the various types of weapons that are dispersed in civil society, for fear of terrorist attacks, uprisings, coups d'état, revolts, etc.

Inform yourself  :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation
Overview of gun laws by country (in Russian)
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%B7%D0%BE%D1%80_%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%BE%D0%B1_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BC



                          Reply #22
....................................
 Having somebody taken out was easy and efficient in Soviet Union, it was a kind of national speciality, with long experience of improving methods and efficiency. They had the choice of start: treason, spying, sabotage, counter-revolutionary activity... then got  forced confession and pronounced any convenient sentence.
...................

According to my TOKEC theory, the attackers-murderes, who fully succeeded in their mission of extermination, were in the vein of the enemies of the Soviet regime of the Khrushchevian period i.e. 1953-1964.

For the murderers, the difficulty was to fool the Soviet police and the KGB, by thwarting the weak and distant official protection of the hikers and by striking quickly.

The KGB reacted on 6 February 1953 by opening a homicide investigation. But it was too late; on 6 February the 9 hikers were all completely dead.



                          Reply #22
...........................
In Moscow suburbs maybe, but not in the Urals mountains which were a kind of Far East......

It is the contrary : it is much easier to operate illegally or to hide in the suburbs of big cities than in a nearly deserted area
where any unusual human presence is more easily noticed.

Moreover, these regions of the Urals were relatively better patrolled and surveilled than other parts of Siberia. Various mineral resources: gold, precious stones, rare metals and especially the proximity of Ivdellag.
 
In addition, if necessary, the Soviet authorities hired hunters from certain Mansi tribes, such as the Kurikov, who were able to identify, and possibly follow, new tracks that appeared on the snow.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 23, 2022, 03:57:22 PM
Reply #25
Offline

Charles


I think that neither the Soviet police nor the KGB were joking about firearms permits.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 23, 2022, 04:02:36 PM
Reply #26
Online

marieuk


Very interesting. It made me wonder if the Dyatlov group broke off tree branches to protect themselves also.  Think I read somewhere that Igor was found holding a birch branch. 

 

June 25, 2022, 01:39:00 AM
Reply #27
Offline

Charles


With a small axe, anyone of average skill can make an excellent "blunt object", big stick, club,... (good grip - 1 meter long - 2 kg) in 10 minutes (or say 30 minutes if he is clumsy) with which you can fracture all the human skulls that you want.

The poll/butt of this axe is already a "blunt object", no need to do any extra work:



Why go to complicated solutions when easy ones are available ? (And they didn't use the bit/blade of the axe because it was not an anti-semitic murder. Killing with the bit/blade of the axe is marking the murder as specifically anti-semiticaly motivated).

I think that neither the Soviet police nor the KGB were joking about firearms permits.

They couldn't know the exact number of firearms in circulation in the Urals, the Mansi also owned some not registered guns, some of them dating from the XIXth century.

If there were Mansi somewhere, then guns were not far away:





A sample of guns, gun, gun, gun, gun and gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, gun, guns, gun, guns, and last but not least gun and Stalin.







They had gun culture in the Urals and it was indeed the Far East...

« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 01:54:20 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 25, 2022, 11:07:50 AM
Reply #28
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Charles


It is the contrary : it is much easier to operate illegally or to hide in the suburbs of big cities than in a nearly deserted area
where any unusual human presence is more easily noticed.

Moreover, these regions of the Urals were relatively better patrolled and surveilled than other parts of Siberia.

The remote parts of Siberia would never be better patrolled than big cities. Cities were important for the Soviets, they didn't only crack down criminals in the cities but they even preventively expelled potential criminals: the system of "passport" was specially created by the Soviets to keep unwanted elements away from the cities. They could get lost in the Urals or wherever but were not allowed to live in the big cities. And that's why you find all these former convicts working at Ivdel, Vizhay and District 41.

And another nice photo for you, a family portrait of Russian nationals living in Vizhay:



enjoying the "Mansi lifestyle" or "Urals lifestyle"...



« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 09:39:16 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 25, 2022, 01:48:13 PM
Reply #29
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Jean Daniel Reuss



               Reply #26
Very interesting. It made me wonder if the Dyatlov group broke off tree branches to protect themselves also.  Think I read somewhere that Igor was found holding a birch branch. 

Beware! To facilitate the debate, the explanatory theories of the DPI can be classified into only two main categories.

   - 1° -
For the many proponents of a death without voluntary human intervention, the branches of the cedar were cut or broken by the hikers.
In this case, it is arguable that it was done in order to feed the fire. However, some people point out that there were some dead branches that were already in or on the snow. These branches were certainly wet.
    sarapuk : Reply #14
« One of the many mysteries of this Dyatlov Case. Why did they build a fire  !  ?  To keep warm  ! ? To use it as protection from something ! ? To use it to light up the place ! ? To cook ! ?  Why »

   - 2° -
There are those who believe that the injuries found
                https://dyatlovpass.com/death
                https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
 are the result of fighting against attackers, in accordance with the expertise of Eduard Tumanov, Doctor of forensics at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University.

In this case, the Den, the Fire, the missing branches of the Cedar could have been made, not by the hikers, but by the attackers.



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
On the matter of Daytlov holding a birch branch, I have no idea.

«  Above the snow were visible only his hands clenched into fists folded in front of his chest. The unbuttoned jacket is unusual for somebody that is freezing to death....»

I cannot discern anything obvious in these 5 photos.




Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
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