Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: WinterLeia on May 16, 2021, 04:22:26 AM

Title: Timed Pictures
Post by: WinterLeia on May 16, 2021, 04:22:26 AM
I wanted to post some observations I noticed about the series of pictures with Thibeaux-Brignolle playing around in the snow. I am sorry if there is some deep discussion about this already; however, I have read many posts on this site already, but have not managed to read everything. And I might simply be seeing things that are not there, which is why I would like to get the opinions of others.
Since I am new I should probably tell what my general thoughts are on the Dyatlov Pass. I really do not have a favorite theory. The avalanche/slab avalanche one makes me angry, though, because I can respect people that have an opinion that I do not agree with as long they sincerely believe it, whereas that particular theory sounds like it is being put forward by people who know it is trash and yet still want to convince people of it for some reason not specified. Personally I lean towards theories that involve the students dying accidentally and there was a cover-up after the fact because an honest investigation would expose secrets that people with enough power and authority to influence the investigation did not want exposed. I am not a big believer in a staged scene at this point, though I have seen good points people made about it. I do not believe in Yeti or aliens, and that is about all I can say about it at this point.
Anyway, back to the photos, it is the one with the famous Yeti picture. I am admittedly biased against this theory as I do not  believe they exist, so take it with a grain of salt, but I have seen Yeti photos that looked way more like a giant ape than this one. Mainly it is because there is a hard line at the waist of the figure. While animals can have different colors of fur on their body, there is normally not such a hard demarcation. It looks more like someone wearing clothes and what he is wearing on top is enough of a different shade from what he is wearing on the bottom that it shows up on a black and white photo. I do believe it is a male; however, I have doubts it is anyone in the group, as no one seems to be as big and husky as that. Honestly, I do not find it too suspicious that they might have ran into somebody, as there were obviously other people out there and the group was even following the trail of a deer hunter. It also does not necessarily mean he had anything to do with the tragedy; however, if there is a reason to believe human involvement was responsible for the death of the hikers, whether knowingly or unknowingly, then the person should be considered either a suspect or a witness.
However, what I am most interested in is the photos that are right before that one. It show Kolya playing around in the snow, nothing unusual for him as he was always the one doing the playful antics in front of the camera. However, there is some things about these photos that bother me. For one thing, on the website, it says that photos 13-15 were done with a timer. If this is the case and there is no one actually holding the camera, then why does the perspective change? In photo 13 we can see a lot more of the tree on the left of Kolya (right, from our perspective) than we can in photo 14 where we we see a lot more of what is to the right of him. In my mind, either he would have had to gotten up and moved the camera and then gotten back into the snow (and I do not know why he would have done that), the photos are not timed and someone is taking the pictures, or the photos are cropped.
At first, I was resistant to the idea that the photos were cropped because we can see a lot of each side, albeit on different pictures. And then I looked at Kolya himself, and I found his facial expression to be extremely odd in frame 14 and 15.
In frame 13, it is very obvious he is just playing around. There is a smile on his face, and he is enjoying himself. In frame 14, his expression has changed. I do not know that I would go so far as to say he looks nervous, but he definitely looks concerned or possibly pensive. He is also not looking at the camera. Instead his eyes are fixed on something to his left. This is the photo where our view of what is on his left has been reduced from what we could see in frame 13. There is also an odd-looking hole on his right, almost out of the frame of the picture, in which a part of his skies is resting in. It is odd because it looks like someone took a giant cookie cutter and removed a portion of snow all the way down to the bare ground. The uniformity of it is odd. And finally, on the right side of the photograph right next to his left knee, there is an odd shape. This actually does look to me like it is the leg and foot of a giant ape, but it could be the leg and foot of someone wearing a boot, perhaps out of focus and thus fuzzy. If there is a person standing there, then it is right where Kolya is looking, and his expression does not  seem to suggest it is any of his fellow hikers. However, the object does not integrate with the rest of the photo, so maybe it is an artifact?
And then in photo 15, his expression gets even more concerning. He is looking to his right now, and his expression is like a cross between worry and fear, and it is even more of a mystery because this is a guy that usually had a smile on his face. If he is playing around, why does he look like that? He is also holding out his right hand and there appears to be a small object in it. It looks like the top of a pen or a screw, maybe some sort of trigger (perhaps for the camera?).
Finally in photo 16, the camera position has definitely changed, which is not a mystery, as he has gotten up. But why would he change the camera position and time it to take one photo of himself bending over? In frame 17, it is hard to match the surrounding with the ones in the previous photos. However there is a set of tracks that look like ski tracks leading from the camera to the figure. Another timed photo of what? Kolya taking a leak? As I said, it does not look like him anyway.

(Edit: Sorry, but I did not realize that we could not use contractions. I think I got them all. I apologize if I did not....I sound so formal!)
Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: Ziljoe on May 16, 2021, 09:41:53 AM
Hi Winterleia.

I have also pondered these set of photos. I am not sure if they had automatic timers back then that could do more than one photo at a time. I know there were spring loaded clockwork timers for taking one photo or selfie as we call it today. I have a 1990 SLR camera of my father's that still needs wound on by hand after taking a picture. So I would guess someone else took the pictures ?.

Maybe someone could share their knowledge about cameras from that time.

I also agree the perspective is unusual and all your other observations . He doesn't look happy or like he's joking around . It could be, as mentioned before , he is answering the call of nature, dug a hole and someone has pushed him over ....but there is something odd with it all. I would question if they would waste film on such a joke,also if they had a camera that could take quick succession (time lapse) photos , why there were not more photos of that nature?

Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: WAB on May 16, 2021, 02:37:15 PM

Maybe someone could share their knowledge about cameras from that time.

It's easy to do. But it is necessary to limit oneself to the models that the Dyatlov's group and the participants of the search had. Otherwise it will be a very big and thick "novel".  grin1
They had cameras like "Zorky" and FED (ФЭД - in Russian). It is the same model only of different companies and different years of development. This model is a clone of the German Leica camera of 1934.

(https://b.radikal.ru/b40/2105/bc/bbb89ff88f19t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b40/2105/bc/bbb89ff88f19.jpg)

On the left is an original “Leica” camera (firm “Ernst Leitz Wetzlar”, Germany), on the right is a FED camera (USSR, Kharkov Mechanical Plant). Such cameras were in the possession of the participants of the search, for example, Yury Yarovoy.
The “Zorky” camera was produced by the Krasnogorsk plant, which is located near Moscow. Exactly these cameras were in Dyatlov's group. They did not have any others. They had four such cameras. The talk about a fifth camera is speculation, because for many years it could not be confirmed that they had one at all.
The participants of the search had FED cameras. In principle they are the same model, only with slightly different optical and mechanical characteristics. The “Zorky” camera was more advanced because it was slightly reworked after WWII and newer materials and better optical glass were used.
(https://d.radikal.ru/d37/2105/0d/02b4628c2287t.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d37/2105/0d/02b4628c2287.jpg)

You can see all the features of this camera in this photo. This is my original shot of this camera in real life.
The features of this camera are:
1. The lens has to be extended (raise the front part) before shooting
2. The film rewinds to one frame and the shutter is cocked by turning the handwheel which you can see on the right. It has a notch to prevent your hand from slipping when working. There was no multi-frame spring. Each shot was taken separately.
3. Next to this handwheel is the button to start the shutter. Even further to the left you can see the shutter head. It was also set separately (manually). It was either calculated in my head from my previous experience or determined by a separate exposure meter and set separately.
4. You can see three optical windows at the top. These are the two windows for rangefinder (determining distance - they are from the edges), and the central one for determining the limits of what comes into the picture frame. Sharpness was determined by matching the two contours of the same object (where the camera was pointing) which these side windows gave. This was done by moving (rotating the spiral thread) the lens by that lever visible on the far right, below the lens.
5. On the left you can see the handwheel, which is needed to rewind the film into the light-tight cassette after all the film has been used up. This was done so that the film was wound on a separate, but not light-protected, reel when it was shot. Of course all the film was inside the camera and was covered with a cover which did not let the light in from outside. That's why it was possible to use such a reel.
You had to have a lot of different skills to take pictures, so not everyone could take good pictures. All the automation of the process was invented much later. The fact that many of the group members use cameras on the trip only tells you that they do it only under the supervision and prompting of those who have mastered the camera operation well. This is a bit confusing because it gives the false impression that all of them could do it in a row, and at the same time that many had their own cameras. At the time, a camera was a "luxury item", expensive (about half of an engineer's monthly salary) and required careful training to operate it.
The group had their own cameras: Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Zolotarev, and Dyatlov. Lyudmila Dubinina's parents probably had a camera, but she did not take it on this trip and could hardly have had good skills in working with it independently. The rest of the participants belonged to a less well-off segment of the population, so the camera was not a basic necessity. They had many other expenses. This was especially true for students who lived in the university dormitory and were from other cities.

I would question if they would waste film on such a joke,also if they had a camera that could take quick succession (time lapse) photos , why there were not more photos of that nature?

Since most of Dyatlov's group were students and very young people, they could do many things that seem illogical or unnecessary to an older person. They fooled around a lot on the trip and joked around. Sometimes even to the detriment of proper film consumption. But as far as I know, they had no shortage of film, so they didn't think about saving it.
The number of mock shots was small only because it was only the beginning of the whole trip and the conditions they were in didn't always allow for it. They had many other concerns and the winter weather was very limiting to their free jokes.  That's why there couldn't have been more pictures like this during that time. And then, why did it have to be all the time? When fatigue builds up, the desire for an extra joke doesn't always appear...
Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: Ziljoe on May 16, 2021, 03:01:03 PM
Thank you WAB, I appreciate your reply.

I want to reiterate my basic understanding of cameras of that time. It's possibly not a big thing in the dynamics of the DPI , but do you think the photos were done by a timer or someone else taking them.

My father was a hill/ Mountain walker and rescue team in the UK. His camera was a pain to wait until he focused . Some shots were amazing and others were rubbish. This was the 70's  and it was much the same until digital cameras.

Do you think the sequenc of photos were done by someone else. ? I question on the fact that every picture would need the operator to physical wind the film ?
Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: Dona on May 16, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
I used to have a similar camera and I dont see a timer on these two. Its was usually on the front.. And yes, you do have to wind  ever time..lol Some do have auto advance but I'm sure that came much later
Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: WAB on May 17, 2021, 09:54:52 AM
Thank you WAB, I appreciate your reply.

Thank you.

I want to reiterate my basic understanding of cameras of that time. It's possibly not a big thing in the dynamics of the DPI , but do you think the photos were done by a timer or someone else taking them.

No, there was no timer on their cameras. Only Zolotarev (somewhere far away in his backpack) had an external timer with him. But I don't see a single shot where a timer could have been used, of all the shots they had.
Only I don't quite understand, maybe you're asking about a particular shot?

My father was a hill/ Mountain walker and rescue team in the UK. His camera was a pain to wait until he focused . Some shots were amazing and others were rubbish. This was the 70's  and it was much the same until digital cameras.

In the seventies there were already quite advanced cameras. Compared to what the Dyatlov group had, it was a very big difference. At that time I shot with the Kiev camera (on 135 film) which was an exact copy of the Contax camera of 1940 and other cameras such as the Salyut (it resembled a Hasselblad 1600F of 1952 or a Hasselblad 500C. ) for film type 120 and the German Practica LTL (or LTL 3) (Kombinat VEB PENTACON DREZDEN, East Germany). They were designed for Type 135 film. I can't remember now which camera I had in the very early 70's (LTL or LTL 3) although I had both of those cameras throughout the 70's. They are quite decent cameras that still work well today, but I rarely shoot film now. They were a bit inferior to the mechanical quality of the Nicon, Canon or mirror Contax, Exakta DSLRs, but the Zeiss optics were great.
Although the quality of the picture is determined more by the photographer than the camera. So as not to search for examples of my shots, I will give only one link - https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-frame-34-04.jpg  . Note that this was taken in Eastern Siberia at temperatures below -30C (-22F) on a much more difficult journey than that of the Dyatlov`s group travel.

Do you think the sequenc of photos were done by someone else. ? I question on the fact that every picture would need the operator to physical wind the film ?

I didn't understand the question very well, but I'll answer it the way I understood it.
1. They took pictures, passing the camera from one to the other in some circumstances, and on the main route they were taken by whoever owned each camera.
2. I probably wasn't very clear about the rewinding of the film, but the point was this:
- in order to take one more frame (there had to be 36 of them on the whole film by standard), the one who took the picture would turn the rewind wheel to advance one frame and at the same time to cock the shutter.
- Then that shot was taken and it was repeated until the film ran out.
- When it ran out (I had already shot 36 frames), the film had to be rewound back into the supply cassette so that I could put a new one in. To do this I had a rewind lever and another handwheel (on the left in my last photo https://d.radikal.ru/d37/2105/0d/02b4628c2287t.jpg ).
These were all operations that had to be done when photographing an entire film. It could be done by one person when he took the pictures alone from start to finish, or it could be someone else if he borrowed the camera to take pictures. Then he only did the necessary rewinds that he needed for his part of the job.
I may have written this in a very long and tedious way, but I wish I had been understood correctly.
Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: Ziljoe on May 17, 2021, 04:38:26 PM
Thank you again WAB.

You have explained it well. In fact it is my fault for my inadequate questions.

The sequence of photos of koyla, I now assume the pictures must have been taken by someone else of the group, winding the film on quite quickly?( That is something we take for granted in modern times with cameras or smart phones). To me it seems a bit odd that one of the group did this but certainly not out of the realms of a bit of fun. I am maybe looking for ghost's where there are no ghost's.

I agree with Winterleia that the sequence seems a bit strange. It probably adds nothing to solving anything and is all quite innocent.

I also understand that to use these cameras took a good bit of knowledge and effort . The pictures of the alleged planes, helicopters or orbs at night I find difficult to believe are anything but damaged film.

Anyway, thank you for the detailed reply and pictures of the cameras.

Title: Re: Timed Pictures
Post by: WinterLeia on May 17, 2021, 05:02:29 PM
So if I understand what I’m reading correctly, somebody would have had to taken the pictures? Or is it that he could only take one timed picture at a time and had to set the camera to take another after each one?