Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2021, 01:53:52 PM
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What's your current best guess as to the cause of the DPI?
For me it's the one true fireorb theory, maybe with a sprinkling of rocket fuel...
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Good question. Nigel.
For me I was Avalanche. Never ruled out anything no matter how far out it was..
At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.
I've yet to get my hands on teddy's work so can't comment. But I have a lot of respect for her and I'm sure it will thorough.
The rocket fule may cross over in bits to the toxins in the potential Wolverine. Ie chemicals.
I'm interested in your thoughts, some I may have missed. Just because there's so many threads. I try to look at all of them.
What's your fireorb/rocket fuel theory/thoughts. I am genuinely interested.
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Good question. Nigel.
For me I was Avalanche. Never ruled out anything no matter how far out it was..
At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.
I've yet to get my hands on teddy's work so can't comment. But I have a lot of respect for her and I'm sure it will thorough.
The rocket fule may cross over in bits to the toxins in the potential Wolverine. Ie chemicals.
I'm interested in your thoughts, some I may have missed. Just because there's so many threads. I try to look at all of them.
What's your fireorb/rocket fuel theory/thoughts. I am genuinely interested.
Ah big question i'll answer tomorrow.
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Thanks NigeI , look forward to it. thumb1
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What's your current best guess as to the cause of the DPI?
For me it's the one true fireorb theory, maybe with a sprinkling of rocket fuel...
Do we have to chose just one? :)
I honestly am just enjoying learning each of the theories. I have thought so many times that I knew what happened and each time, I've talked myself into another theory, lol. I'm just going to continue putting theories on my plausibility scale and enjoy the thoughtful, insightful discussions with you all!
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What's your current best guess as to the cause of the DPI?
For me it's the one true fireorb theory, maybe with a sprinkling of rocket fuel...
Do we have to chose just one? :)
I honestly am just enjoying learning each of the theories. I have thought so many times that I knew what happened and each time, I've talked myself into another theory, lol. I'm just going to continue putting theories on my plausibility scale and enjoy the thoughtful, insightful discussions with you all!
Here here. . Let's just enjoy the roller coaster. I have to read Teddy's account. Thats important to me as she has done so much work. I would guess she's seen every explanation going . But I respect everyone's search. Im looking forward to Nigel's too.
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What's your current best guess as to the cause of the DPI?
For me it's the one true fireorb theory, maybe with a sprinkling of rocket fuel...
For me nothing as changed in 2 years. Ive learned a lot but its the same old story with the Dyatlov Case. Lack of Evidence and missing Evidence. We can still speculate till the Cows come home.
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For Ziljoe.
For me the Mansi legend is a key element, suggesting that there is a natural electrical phenomena that can repeat. Normally this repetition is unseen due to the remoteness of the region but rarely people are killed by it. A clue could be in this photo :-
(https://i.ibb.co/VLPBRHL/16-040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BfSsb4f)
Notice in the distance there has been what seems to be a snow slide. Now you could explain this as spring thaw (the photo was probably taken in April/May) but notice how devoid of snow the exposed rock is, as if the snow slid because the rock warmed up and only in that location.
Now wrt the DPI, imo there are signs of a "warm mountain" that night :-
- Rustem was found in an ice bed which could be due to lying in a stream.
- the footsteps are heavily splayed out sideways suggesting to me wet snow bordering on slush.
- the "firn snow" on a tent on the north eastern slope of a siberian mountain in Feb.
- the sastrugi around the tent forcing the rescue team to dismount could suggest wind carved wet snow.
- the photo of something scooping out a line of snow (like a man limping) doesn't suggest -20C snow to me but much softer snow. Ditto the depth and crispness of the footstep next to it.
N.B. here in the south UK we definitely do not see the sub polar conditions of the Urals but what we do see is wet snow and these footstep photos suggest to me wet snow that has then refrozen to last three weeks in high winds.
N.B. meltwater would find it's way into the ravine stream possibly resulting in a large slab slide which would easily explain the ravine injuries.
This electrical phenomena could include lightning and ball lightning resulting in burnt people, trees and strange photos. I would link the decision to camp on the ridge with them finding a camera on tripod and Semyon's boast that he would return famous. For me it all fits that the pressure to make up lost time with certain individuals being keen to photograph "lights" and the high winds preventing an evening ascent tipped the balance into camping up there rather than the forest. In my albeit limited experience i think it was doable, with a stove full of wood to warm things up in the morning, thaw out the boots etc. Worst case the forest was only 10 minutes away on skis.
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Btw wouldn't a wolverine find food in the tent and hang around long enough to leave poop?
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That is a photo I have not seen or at least never paid attention to. Very interesting and I can't think of a natural explanation for it.
.Rustem was found in an ice bed which could be due to lying in a stream.
Maybe. Although he might have been burrowing himself , although if I remember correctly there was a substantial amount of ice under him.
.the footsteps are heavily splayed out sideways suggesting to me wet snow bordering on slush.
I'm not sure about this. Could be.
.the "firn snow" on a tent on the north eastern slope of a siberian mountain in Feb.
Not sure of the context of translation from russian for firn snow. As I understand it ,firn snow is snow that lasts all year. I thought it was hard snow over the tent.
.the sastrugi around the tent forcing the rescue team to dismount could suggest wind carved wet snow.
I thought sastrugi snow was from the very nature of hard dry snow behaving like sand by the wind. Sort of like sand blasting.
.the photo of something scooping out a line of snow (like a man limping) doesn't suggest -20C snow to me but much softer snow. Ditto the depth and crispness of the footstep next to it.
I am intrigued by the crispness of that footstep and would have thought some snow would have filled it. Although I have no idea if they were photographing the footstep (could be searchers ) or the long indentation or maybe both.
Snow in the north of UK can go frozen or slush quite quickly. In 2009 we had huge snow fall at sea level. It stayed for over four weeks. The snow that had been snow ploughed on to the pavement was still 2 feet deep. Rock hard and couldn't be walked on. Most snow I've seen.
I have been to Norway and seen the same and experienced crosscountry sling. It can be softer in the trees but harder on the lakes.
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Btw wouldn't a wolverine find food in the tent and hang around long enough to leave poop?
Igor wrote about this also. If the Wolverine sprayed the chemical weapon. She would go away and leave the area. Its sprays only under certain stressful conditions. Again, as I understand it , it has another spray or gland for marking food or territory, Nothing would eat the food sprayed with the defensive chemical weapon. ( I don't now how to describe it better) . Its had a confrontation , got a fright and decided to move on.
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It helps me to organize the various theories into three broad categories:
RATIONAL – Fleeing suddenly without coats or boots was a rational act. The group felt their lives were in immediate danger. Scenarios I favor: snow slab (either real or what the group thought was real); ball lightning with fiery balls rolling towards them.
IRRATIONAL – Group not able to think clearly and acted irrationally as a result. Scenarios: infrasound; exploded rocket with toxic fumes affecting the group's thinking.
NO TIME TO ACT – Tree falls on tent.
I'm open to any of these, but none have conclusive evidence.
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It helps me to organize the various theories into three broad categories:
RATIONAL – Fleeing suddenly without coats or boots was a rational act. The group felt their lives were in immediate danger. Scenarios I favor: snow slab (either real or what the group thought was real); ball lightning with fiery balls rolling towards them.
IRRATIONAL – Group not able to think clearly and acted irrationally as a result. Scenarios: infrasound; exploded rocket with toxic fumes affecting the group's thinking.
NO TIME TO ACT – Tree falls on tent.
I'm open to any of these, but none have conclusive evidence.
I would add errors to RATIONAL category. To me most decisive and puzzling points are leaving the tent without proper clothing and descending toward cedar instead of labaz (which was closer than cedar). To me most plausible reason to leave the tent was delayed release of snow slab. That left some persons injured, so they had no time (in freezing environment) and crew to dig out proper supplies and clothing from buried tent. Going to cedar seems navigation error. After the release of snow slab only reasonable course of action would be descent back to labaz where they had firewood, food rations, some medical supplies and two pairs of shoes (all important for survival).
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That is a photo I have not seen or at least never paid attention to. Very interesting and I can't think of a natural explanation for it.
.Rustem was found in an ice bed which could be due to lying in a stream.
Maybe. Although he might have been burrowing himself , although if I remember correctly there was a substantial amount of ice under him.
.the footsteps are heavily splayed out sideways suggesting to me wet snow bordering on slush.
I'm not sure about this. Could be.
.the "firn snow" on a tent on the north eastern slope of a siberian mountain in Feb.
Not sure of the context of translation from russian for firn snow. As I understand it ,firn snow is snow that lasts all year. I thought it was hard snow over the tent.
.the sastrugi around the tent forcing the rescue team to dismount could suggest wind carved wet snow.
I thought sastrugi snow was from the very nature of hard dry snow behaving like sand by the wind. Sort of like sand blasting.
.the photo of something scooping out a line of snow (like a man limping) doesn't suggest -20C snow to me but much softer snow. Ditto the depth and crispness of the footstep next to it.
I am intrigued by the crispness of that footstep and would have thought some snow would have filled it. Although I have no idea if they were photographing the footstep (could be searchers ) or the long indentation or maybe both.
Snow in the north of UK can go frozen or slush quite quickly. In 2009 we had huge snow fall at sea level. It stayed for over four weeks. The snow that had been snow ploughed on to the pavement was still 2 feet deep. Rock hard and couldn't be walked on. Most snow I've seen.
I have been to Norway and seen the same and experienced crosscountry sling. It can be softer in the trees but harder on the lakes.
In this context firn equals hard, the snow on the tent was so hard they had to chip it out with an ice axe damaging the tent. The sastrugi was so rutted that they had to dismount.
This is not snow that has stayed at sub zero for three weeks, this is snow that has been warmed and then refrozen (imo).
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That is a photo I have not seen or at least never paid attention to. Very interesting and I can't think of a natural explanation for it.
.Rustem was found in an ice bed which could be due to lying in a stream.
Maybe. Although he might have been burrowing himself , although if I remember correctly there was a substantial amount of ice under him.
.the footsteps are heavily splayed out sideways suggesting to me wet snow bordering on slush.
I'm not sure about this. Could be.
.the "firn snow" on a tent on the north eastern slope of a siberian mountain in Feb.
Not sure of the context of translation from russian for firn snow. As I understand it ,firn snow is snow that lasts all year. I thought it was hard snow over the tent.
.the sastrugi around the tent forcing the rescue team to dismount could suggest wind carved wet snow.
I thought sastrugi snow was from the very nature of hard dry snow behaving like sand by the wind. Sort of like sand blasting.
.the photo of something scooping out a line of snow (like a man limping) doesn't suggest -20C snow to me but much softer snow. Ditto the depth and crispness of the footstep next to it.
I am intrigued by the crispness of that footstep and would have thought some snow would have filled it. Although I have no idea if they were photographing the footstep (could be searchers ) or the long indentation or maybe both.
Snow in the north of UK can go frozen or slush quite quickly. In 2009 we had huge snow fall at sea level. It stayed for over four weeks. The snow that had been snow ploughed on to the pavement was still 2 feet deep. Rock hard and couldn't be walked on. Most snow I've seen.
I have been to Norway and seen the same and experienced crosscountry sling. It can be softer in the trees but harder on the lakes.
In this context firn equals hard, the snow on the tent was so hard they had to chip it out with an ice axe damaging the tent. The sastrugi was so rutted that they had to dismount.
This is not snow that has stayed at sub zero for three weeks, this is snow that has been warmed and then refrozen (imo).
I have read that the first 2 searchers that found the tent used the ice axe and the skis found at the site to dig up the hard snow on the tent because they came without any other digging tools. Its just what was at hand.
And firm snow is just what happens there. The snow was soft enough for them to place the skis on end all around the tent excavation .
Although we might be splitting hairs here.
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Weren't all those skis placed there by the dpi group?
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They cut the tent along a significant length with that ice axe because the snow had fused with the canvas? (imo). Melted into the canvas?
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I think it was the searchers. The first day the two that found the tent, used the pic axe found at the tent. Had a look inside , they said the snow was firm or firn. I am not sure and don't recall hearing it was stuck to the tent but interesting if it was. They took the alcohol and a couple of things back to the base camp .
The following day they removed things , and stood the skis from the flooring around the location of the tent. Along with ski poles. So it wasn't ice hard or even compacted .
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The following day they removed things , and stood the skis from the flooring around the location of the tent. Along with ski poles. So it wasn't ice hard or even compacted .
Ah good point. But they didn't push them in very far kewl1
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Weren't all those skis placed there by the dpi group?
The Dyatlov group's skis were under the tent, except for two which were in the snow and used to tension ropes / hold the tent up.
The skis in the photos from the search are the searchers. Or... are they the DG's skis, after the searchers have already dug out the tent and for some reason pierced the skis into the snow?
In any case they were placed by the searchers.
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Weren't all those skis placed there by the dpi group?
The Dyatlov group's skis were under the tent, except for two which were in the snow and used to tension ropes / hold the tent up.
The skis in the photos from the search are the searchers. Or... are they the DG's skis, after the searchers have already dug out the tent and for some reason pierced the skis into the snow?
In any case they were placed by the searchers.
Yes see below.
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Ah sorry, fair enough.
As for current best guess, I don't really know. Several things turn out to be red herrings in my opinion, for example radiation - wasn't enough to cause health effects, most probably unrelated to the incident, or their dirty hands - simply they had no means to wash their hands, look at photos from days before the incident, their hands are already quite dark, or climbing the tree - hypothermia causes hallucinations so there's nothing weird about climbing a tree.
But so many things remain unexplained. Many branches and young trees around the cedar were reported to be cut. Is it true that no knife was found with any of the bodies or anywhere down in the forest? I haven't seen a single theory yet that explains this.
Update: So, despite https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy listing this as a controversy there was actually a "pocket knife" found on Rustem. This is in his autopsy report.
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It helps me to organize the various theories into three broad categories:
RATIONAL – Fleeing suddenly without coats or boots was a rational act. The group felt their lives were in immediate danger. Scenarios I favor: snow slab (either real or what the group thought was real); ball lightning with fiery balls rolling towards them.
IRRATIONAL – Group not able to think clearly and acted irrationally as a result. Scenarios: infrasound; exploded rocket with toxic fumes affecting the group's thinking.
NO TIME TO ACT – Tree falls on tent.
I'm open to any of these, but none have conclusive evidence.
Yes it always boils down to the word conclusive. Thats why I think we will be on this Forum for some time to come.
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And firm snow is just what happens there.
Firn snow is snow that is turning into ice due to a combination of pressure (weight of snow above) and summer temperatures (that soften it but don't melt it). Fresh snow is full of air and needs those elements in order to compact.
Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.
The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?
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Ditto the ravine snow, they needed pick axes to get down to the den floor. Granted in May when the temperature would be assisting "firning" but if you're biased kewl1 also a sign of unusual warming. Note how the side of the snow next to the den looks like "settled rubble".
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Good afternoon Nigel.
I am no expert in snow(0r anything for that matter) however , thoughts are the ravine 4 was a snow collapse after A) finding a natural cornice /snow cave over the ravine( ravine meaning , between a couple or raised banks, and a place for snow to drift/gather) or B) they dug their own hole in to the snow drift, possibly from where the snow den was situated. ( I have read the statement that said it was little more than arms length ,from den to bodies in ravine and the distance had been exaggerated to 6 meters)
Regarding snow,the temperature would flux and warm fronts would come followed by cold fronts. How mild or warm I don't. I still don't know what firn snow is by definition, and here's my point, are they saying firn snow as the opposite to soft or fresh snow. Firn snow is snow that's been lying , maybe heated a little by the sun and fluctuating temperature for a long time. It usually means snow that's lasted a year.
I know you are talking about the snow over the tent. My guess and that's all it is, would be they meant by communication that the snow over the tent is firn /firm. It is not "fresh "snow. It has gone through some processes, heat, wind , cooling. I don't know if the wind blowing the snow in its little particles would sufficiently raise temperatures to cause slight melting and hardening of the snow.( I was thinking of the tree bark getting blasted off the trees through the winter season. No real mystery there but it gives an example of the wind direction and how it can erode things , like the boot rock)
In the UK I'm sure you have experienced the powder dry stuff that we can't make a snowball with or the perfect ,just right snow for a snow man. As I understand it , these lairs of snow fall, melt ,etc on all places/ mountain sides. That's why a lot of snow slabs or avalanches occur( I think) it's the different make up or densities of the snow. There's no big secret to it. If the snow got wet and slush like, I think there might have seen signs of it in the tent, and on the bodies or clothing. Saying that I'm not against some snow melting or steam by an orb or electro field or even a self destructing rocket that vaporizers it's fuel in a flash over a mountain side. Its just low down my list of theory choices. ATM. I am happy to be convinced otherwise.
Back to the hard snow at the ravine, I think, and I could really be wrong here . The pick axe's , shovels and six strong men were called to dig the ravine 4 out. The snow was very hard there which leads to the idea of there being a snow collapse. When the snow collapses under the right conditions and depending on the humidity or make up of the snow it will become compacted, maybe heat up then freeze. Not like an ice block but hard. again going back to snow balls , if there is a suitable thaw and you make a snowball out of slush it becomes hard and dense. And you don't want that being thrown at your head.
I'm not disagreeing with you on anything mate. Just trying to explain my limited understanding and willing to learn along the way.
So for simple snow terminology
Fresh snow= fresh snow
Firn = snow that's been lying about at been exposed to weather and temperature fluctuations , movement.
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Snow on a tent can only become ice in three weeks by being warmed close to it's melt point and then refrozen.
There is no other way...
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Perhaps Nigel, but where does it say it was ice? Remember they installed the skis in the snow next to the tent when digging it up. Or put them upright, the same as in the photo that allegedly shows dyatlov group installing the tent. ?
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Perhaps Nigel, but where does it say it was ice?
https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1?rbid=18461
Maybe we would have behaved differently if the ice ax was not perched there at the entrance, the tent was encapsulated with firn snow, we saw the ax, we needed to get inside the tent, of course, we grabbed an ice ax and started chopping. We did not have an ax or even a knife. Because we carried nothing but dry rations.
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I have seen that and thanks for the link. I'm going to probably make an idiot of myself but hey ho.
Firn snow. Is the in-between stage of snow to ice. As I'm reading on line and trying to work it out, you may have a point and I am happy to explore it with you.
Ideas of why it might be the case that it's actually harder on the tent canvas. The snow may have fallen on or blown over the tent. The tent would have provided insulation from the cold ground below. If there were spells of sun shine( I know we had a cold snap for -6 days up north UK but the sun was warm enough for a t-shirt No wind and it was early January.) , It is dark in colour and may have held heat from the sun? .
What snow lay may have melted in small amounts on top of the canvas causing a denser , crystallised snow? I didn't hear they had to dig the torch out. It is ,as always strange but might have a simple explanation. But I don't think it was "ice" as I know it to be.
In the photos of the searchers at the tent they don't seem to be sinking in the snow or any sign of their own foot prints. Unfortunately I don't know of the make up of the snow on the mountainside but it is evident that the DG had raised footprints , no foot prints, foot prints that were not raised and soft snow in the woods. Obviously the snow has different consistency within a short area and altitude. I would guess that's the wind , humidity and temperature fluctuations. I just don't know enough to comment which is frustrating ,. WAB or Igor B might be able to comment as I believe they have both been there.
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This is the sub polar Urals in Feb? The diary gives temps of -18 to -24C in the forest? On the ridge it would be colder? Where is the heat coming from to melt things?
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A very good point. You tell me lol. But fern snow is part of thawing or melting I think. I am reading and trying to understand . I believe it can be also by compression of the snow. Generates its own heat...but firn snow is not ice, I don't think anyway.
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Also this melting or thawing causes different layers of snow all the time. There's humidity in the air that changes the layer of snow. Hence even the concept of a snow slab.
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A very good point. You tell me lol. But fern snow is part of thawing or melting I think. I am reading and trying to understand . I believe it can be also by compression of the snow. Generates its own heat...but firn snow is not ice, I don't think anyway.
At higher altitudes (considerably higher than 1000m) mountain snow doesn't melt in the summer because it's too cold. But the sun does raise it's temp close to 0C. This and the pressure due to the weight of the snow above starts a long term process of turning snow into glacier ice. Essentially the snow crystals are becoming compressed removing air resulting in a much denser pack and the warming due to summer and pressure is creating a little melting that on refreezing increases the hardness. Firn is a point along this path. But he's only using the term firn wrt the tent to describe the hardness, it's not really firn snow, but it's as hard as. So i think we can rule out pressure and hence we're left with warming that shouldn't be occurring.
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Oi, you have been googling!
Yeah, that's what I have been reading. Ball in your court. What's your explanation then. Fire orbs, rockets I know you strated this thread. What have you pulled together?
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Oi, you have been googling!
Yeah, that's what I have been reading. Ball in your court. What's your explanation then. Fire orbs, rockets I know you strated this thread. What have you pulled together?
Atmospheric electricity discharging from the sky into the mountain. Snow is an excellent electrical insulator but they dug through it to erect the tent. So the discharge is focused at that location. Electrical discharge = electric current which creates heat. In the mansi legend the mountain lost all it's snow nearly up to the peak (that's a lot of heat...). The DPI event was a minor version in comparison. YuriK probably got his burn at the tent location. That's why they wouldn't return for clothing, just one look at that 30cm 3rd degree burn and would you get back inside? Electric discharge = lightning which is known to create ball lightning. That's what they photographed. They died for those photographs and no one gets that.... Ce sera.
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Interesting and not out of the realms of possibility. Do you have any links or other noted info. I had not come across the Mansi legend, do you have a link for that at hand. As understand the interpretation it was called dead mountain or something similar as it was not good for hunting.
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Another Post thats going nowhere.
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Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....
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At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.
Yes, wolverine have those glands, but I have never heard of nine persons or all of the entire group of persons died of because of any animal (lions, hippos, snakes et cetera). We have some of wolverines here in Finland, but I have never heard of its glands emitting such a fluid, that it prevents any action of humans e.g. reindeers husbanders in Finnish Lappland.
My basic point is: is there any example in human history that any animal have killed or caused death of the entire group of humans?
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Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?
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Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?
Hmm. Does it have to be either/or? Could the lightning force them to flee and Krivo still be burned down at the fire under the cedar? I could see a domino effect happening. It would be statistically minute but possible...
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And firm snow is just what happens there.
Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.
The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?
If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?
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Interesting and not out of the realms of possibility. Do you have any links or other noted info. I had not come across the Mansi legend, do you have a link for that at hand. As understand the interpretation it was called dead mountain or something similar as it was not good for hunting.
From the looo.ch epub - "Mansi legends tell of nine hunters that found their death on the Mount Kholat-Syakhyl at the time of the Flood: “died of hunger”, “cooked to death in boiling water”, “perished in some sinister flare”. Hence its name, translated as the Mountain of the Dead."
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At the moment I'm all for Wolverine. Igors work seems healthy and good arguments. Not 100% but close to it.
Yes, wolverine have those glands, but I have never heard of nine persons or all of the entire group of persons died of because of any animal (lions, hippos, snakes et cetera). We have some of wolverines here in Finland, but I have never heard of its glands emitting such a fluid, that it prevents any action of humans e.g. reindeers husbanders in Finnish Lappland.
My basic point is: is there any example in human history that any animal have killed or caused death of the entire group of humans?
Hi trekker.
From the Wolverine theory , as my interpretation of events is that the beast did not attack, kill, or do anything spectacular. It sprayed it's smell. Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits. I have found translating my questioned in to russian gets more results. There are examples along with skunks that the smell is awful. Whether that's enough for them to be forced out of the tent , leave valuable tools and clothing is another matter. The Wolverine did not kill them but forced them into an environment that they could not survive. Along with some bad luck.
That goes along with the strong wind theory and WaBs infro sound theory. What made them leave the tent and not pick up some kit.
For me the Wolverine theory could be disproved if humans could stand the smell. But if it was sprayed inside the tent it can cause blindness and dizziness.
There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid. It doesn't always spray and uses its glands in 2 ways. As well as urinates and wipes it's butt on things. Glutton is it's other name , if I understand it will eat anything and store food more than it needs. Dead , alive, you name it, it will eat the lot.
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And firm snow is just what happens there.
Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.
The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?
If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?
Hi trekker.
Is the question for me?
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Help me out here, Nigel. Could a bolt of lightning pass through the tent and hit YuriK? Or did the lightning create an electrical current in the tent or under it? If so, wouldn't others suffer burns and not just YuriK?
Very unlikely without burning the tent. More possible could be a static discharge from the canvas fabric (being charged from the sky). It would be very plausible that it would only find one path and injure one person. E.g. the others could be lying down insulated by their backpacks, skis etc, whilst he was manning the camera/tripod and stuck his foot outside of this insulation (charring the top half of one toe!!).
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And firm snow is just what happens there.
Q. So how does snow against a tent turn into ice in just three weeks?A. It can't be pressure it must be that it's been softened with raised temperatures and then refrozen.
The diary records temps in the forest of -18C to -24C. So how does the temp on the ridge get close to 0C?
If that is natural phenomenon, why we would not record such events after 1959? There have been many visits in the DPI site after 1959?
It probably has happened, it might be a rare phenomena perhaps one night every ten years maybe more frequently, people aren't there that often. The mansi avoid the place.
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Hence its name, translated as the Mountain of the Dead."
I have posted about this before, it can be translated as "mountain of the dead", it can also be translated as "barren rock". Which it is.
See: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=590.msg11204#msg11204 (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=590.msg11204#msg11204)
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And by the way, the condition of the snow as found by the searchers around the tent also puzzled me. Still does, but in the diaries you can read from the DG themselves that there was "firn snow" above the treeline, as they ascended from Auspiya. I assume that describes the first attempt. Anyway that would be on the other side of the pass. So this hard snow existed in the wider area, before the incident too. So maybe it's not that mysterious.
Unless of course someone faked the diaries to make the hardened snow seem less strange...... nea1
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Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.
Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.
There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.
Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.
I would like to enlight my background: I am not professional hunter, reindeer husbander (like Mansi) or trekker. I have background in Finnish Defence Forces so I have some rough experience from trekking above arctic circle. So I consider myself lightly semiprofessional in this case.
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And by the way, the condition of the snow as found by the searchers around the tent also puzzled me. Still does, but in the diaries you can read from the DG themselves that there was "firn snow" above the treeline, as they ascended from Auspiya. I assume that describes the first attempt. Anyway that would be on the other side of the pass. So this hard snow existed in the wider area, before the incident too. So maybe it's not that mysterious.
Unless of course someone faked the diaries to make the hardened snow seem less strange...... nea1
An atmospheric electrical discharge could cover a wide area? A warmed mountain is a big area?
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30.01.59
Weather: temperature in the morning - 17 С
day - 13 С
night - 26 С.
The wind is strong, south-west, snow begins to fall, heavy clouds, drop in temperature. The temperature is normal for Northern Urals.
This is a story about the forest. Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops and other things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning for the hikers as well as historians.
Deer trail turns into а trodden path, and then ends. To go without a trail is very hard, snow is 120 cm (4 feet) deep. The forest gradually thins and trees get smaller. You can feel the altitude. Lots of dwarf birches and pines. It is impossible to walk on the river. It is not completely frozen, there is ice and water under the snow. We have to go back on the bank of the river. The day is over and we have to find a place for bivouac. That's the stop for the night. Strong west wind. It blows the snows off the cedar and pine trees, creating the impression of a snow fall.
As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep.Meltwater from Kholat? A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?
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Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.
Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.
There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.
Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.
As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.
Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.
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Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.
Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.
There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.
Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.
As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.
Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.
Yes, to my understanding about wolverines You are precise correct. I have seen wolverine close in Kuusamo (In Finland, northern wild life center), wolverines are fucking strong and muscular animals consedering their size. But still they are at least in Finland quite loners.
My account of wolverines is based purely my instiction. I wouldn't cosider wolverine the cause of leaving the tent, but I cannot prove my point so You may have plausible explanation.
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Having searched online it has been difficult to get any data on its habits.
Yes, that is exactly for me too. Nevertheless I haven't bumped any incidents in Finland reindeer husbandry area that wolverine gland fluids have caused any incidents.
There are a number of different evolutions of the beast. I would assume those in Finland are the same. But online the reports, mostly of skunks , is its horrid.
Yes it is propably exact same species, but I have never heard in Finnish Lappland reindeer husbandy area (like Mansi people) that Wolverine have hindered any people actions. Wolverine is quite small predator and likes to be lone (hermit) animal.
As understand the Wolverines habits is to eat , sleep , and cover a large area. Uses its glands to mark it's food labaz etc. It can give a good fight to wolf's and bear s or at least get out of trouble. It has no problems with humans and is relatively curious beast although isolated due to its environment. What has been recorded that it will spray it's stinky gland when in real trouble but under only extreme circumstances. I have found examples and stories of the Wolverine going in to tents and snow holes with humans. Even in to log homes. It smells food and follow s it's nose. The potential argument for the Wolverine is it got into the tent , Got stuck inside and everyone one is shouting or whatever. The Wolverine sprays it's gland. Its toxic. The fight is not a physical fight but a fight against the toxin.
Anyway , this Nigel's thread and I wish to give him the respect on his theory. He has some valid points.
No probs discussing other peoples theories, as in the title.
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Going for the wolverine spray is the clothes (including a coat!) dropped by the tent. Why leave a coat behind, unless it smells so bad you can't bear it?
A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?
Well, a stream. Streams never freeze completely. As this is what I've always seen in forests, I didn't even consider why. But now that I think about it, the water is from the ground, the ground never freezes, perhaps the top layers, like the soil freeze but the rocks below are always kept above freezing by the inner warmth of the Earth. So the groundwater will find a way out. If the air is cold ice will form on top of the stream but underneath there is always running water.. but if it's just a small stream perhaps the top layer is too fast and ice never forms in some places, there's always fresh water to melt it.
So there is nothing strange about this. Further downstream where the top layer is tranquil enough, a thick layer of ice can form that then gets snowed on. Under that there's still flowing water. There's water below even the North Pole ;) Of course that's saltwater so harder to freeze but still. Sorry if I used strange words but you get the gist.
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Going for the wolverine spray is the clothes (including a coat!) dropped by the tent. Why leave a coat behind, unless it smells so bad you can't bear it?
A river not completely frozen in air temps of --20C in Feb?
Well, a stream. Streams never freeze completely. As this is what I've always seen in forests, I didn't even consider why. But now that I think about it, the water is from the ground, the ground never freezes, perhaps the top layers, like the soil freeze but the rocks below are always kept above freezing by the inner warmth of the Earth. So the groundwater will find a way out. If the air is cold ice will form on top of the stream but underneath there is always running water.. but if it's just a small stream perhaps the top layer is too fast and ice never forms in some places, there's always fresh water to melt it.
So there is nothing strange about this. Further downstream where the top layer is tranquil enough, a thick layer of ice can form that then gets snowed on. Under that there's still flowing water. There's water below even the North Pole ;) Of course that's saltwater so harder to freeze but still. Sorry if I used strange words but you get the gist.
Well the diary is talking about the river? And further back in the trip they are using frozen rivers to make good progress? But as they near the DP the river isn't frozen...
Wrt streams i would expect the ground to be frozen (seasonal tundra?) by end of Jan at least at the surface. So any surface water would freeze also. Perhaps you meant springs?
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Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....
Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.
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Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....
Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.
Your opinion of Dona might be higher than mine.
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Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....
Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.
Your opinion of Dona might be higher than mine.
I just mean that she has injected some action. Not that she is correct in what she is injecting.
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Please continue Nigel. I would be glad to hear all your thoughts. Obviously we are not setting the forum on fire but we can always call Dona over....
Yes Donna has brought this Forum to life. Not sure if we are all going round in circles though.
Your opinion of Dona might be higher than mine.
I just mean that she has injected some action. Not that she is correct in what she is injecting.
Rolls eyes.