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Author Topic: New theory by Igor Povetkin  (Read 1675 times)

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September 10, 2020, 05:55:41 AM
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Teddy

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It is not very often I come across a novel way to kill the Dyatlov group. Usually the theories give reason for the group to leave the tent, but then they kind of let nature take its course. Igor Povetkin ventures to point out what could inflict the hardest to explain and quickest to die from injuries. In this version Dubinina and Zolotaryov are run over by a snowmobile. Thibeaux-Brignolle head injury, the wound on Kolevatov's head, and the abrasion on Kolmogorova's side and lower back could also have been caused by a snowmobile. The author assures us that on February 1, 1959, nothing fell from the sky to height 1079, no flying saucers, no rocket engines, no comets with meteors. All the evil was done here below, on earth. The theory earned its own board →

September 10, 2020, 06:10:31 AM
Reply #1
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Nigel Evans


Impact injuries would create bruises? The ravine four bodies demonstrate bruising but none that are relevant to the cause of death. Rustem had internal chest bleeding but no bruising? Zinaida had a bleeding bruise but not fatal.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 10:47:52 AM by Teddy »

September 10, 2020, 06:23:12 AM
Reply #2
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Nigel Evans


and no broken limbs.

September 10, 2020, 06:25:01 AM
Reply #3
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Teddy

Administrator
and no broken limbs.

If you get run over by car you don't necessary have broken limbs.

September 10, 2020, 06:52:58 AM
Reply #4
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Nigel Evans


and no broken limbs.

If you get run over by car you don't necessary have broken limbs.
Agreed, but no bruises?

September 10, 2020, 07:07:02 AM
Reply #5
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Teddy

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Agreed, but no bruises?

There should be bruising.
I have problems with this theory on a whole different level  nea1
But I was surprised that someone could have come up with something new.

September 10, 2020, 07:28:57 AM
Reply #6

Chris

Guest
But imagine how expensive these machines were back then. Is it likely that a snowmobile was used at night and could approach the tent without making such a noise that it warns the group inside, with no lights switched on to see, where they can drive without risking the loss of the mobile on a slope with rocks hidden beneath the snow? I know of half tracked snowmobiles, but they would have left tremendous traces in the terrain (and the tent and gear inside). The propellor sledges shown in the photo above seem experimantal to me.
The group managed to escape the tent on foot, the murders could not be sure, that no one survived to tell about this later. Considering that such mobiles were not wide spread in the area back then, everyone would have known very soon, who must have done this murder attempt. And what was the motiv, when there was no secret "event" in the sky, the group could have been witnessed, when "the author assures us that on February 1, 1959, nothing fell from the sky to height 1079, no flying saucers, no rocket engines, no comets with meteors"? Is there a lack of plausibility in the argumentation itself?

I know I am quite new here and should better hold myself back a little bit more. But I am so impressed by Teodora's immense engagement over the years to bring people from all over the world to think about the tragedy and finally find out the truth, that it is hard, to hold back.

Chris

September 10, 2020, 08:03:19 AM
Reply #7
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Nigel Evans


Agreed, but no bruises?

There should be bruising.
I have problems with this theory on a whole different level  nea1
But I was surprised that someone could have come up with something new.
It's got a lot of merit to explain the rav4 injuries, if the machines were heavy enough then they could crush through enough snow to answer the bruising issue. A big plus is that the fan on the back could perhaps lift enough snow into the air to hide the tracks?

September 10, 2020, 08:30:47 AM
Reply #8

Chris

Guest
Agreed, but no bruises?

There should be bruising.
I have problems with this theory on a whole different level  nea1
But I was surprised that someone could have come up with something new.
It's got a lot of merit to explain the rav4 injuries, if the machines were heavy enough then they could crush through enough snow to answer the bruising issue. A big plus is that the fan on the back could perhaps lift enough snow into the air to hide the tracks?

I think these "Fan"-operated machines were just experimental. Don't know how widespread they actually have been back then. And if they were used there and crushed through say the ravine with the "den", they would surely left tracks. Their weight alone would cause a big mess all around. I doubt that the fan driven slegdes were useful exept on a plane and level ice-field like a frozen lake or such. And in a even loosely forrested ore otherwise uneven terrain.. I think they were completely useless. (EDIT: I am wrong.)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 08:56:56 AM by Chris »

September 10, 2020, 08:49:32 AM
Reply #9

Chris

Guest
I found some interesting sources:

https://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/Aerosleds.pdf

Here it says: "Aerosleds can be used only when the “General Winter’ effect is in play. Their mobility is not impaired  in  snow.  Treat  all  roads,  cross-country,  swamps  and  water  courses  invariably  as  a  cross-country  terrain.  Aerosleds  do  not  need  to  perform  Bogging  check  while  crossing  frozen areas. On the other hand Woods are Very Difficult Going terrain for them and they cannot cross Balkas, trenches or similar deep terrain features."

On wikipedia there is an article as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosani

Don't know how we can build these machines into the murder-theory. Some lines in the first mentioned source read:
"Because  of  their  great  vulnerability,  in  combat  actions  the  aerosled  was  most  effectively  employed  only  in  surprise  raids  and  attacks  against  an  unprepared  and  unfortified  enemy.  Utilizing  its  speed  and  high  mobility  across  snow-covered  road-less  terrain,  the  aerosleds  suddenly  attacked  an  enemy  caught  off  guard."

So, the tent would fit their typical type of target.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 08:57:11 AM by Chris »

September 10, 2020, 09:11:11 AM
Reply #10
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Nigel Evans


Agreed, but no bruises?

There should be bruising.
I have problems with this theory on a whole different level  nea1
But I was surprised that someone could have come up with something new.
It's got a lot of merit to explain the rav4 injuries, if the machines were heavy enough then they could crush through enough snow to answer the bruising issue. A big plus is that the fan on the back could perhaps lift enough snow into the air to hide the tracks?

I think these "Fan"-operated machines were just experimental. Don't know how widespread they actually have been back then. And if they were used there and crushed through say the ravine with the "den", they would surely left tracks. Their weight alone would cause a big mess all around. I doubt that the fan driven slegdes were useful exept on a plane and level ice-field like a frozen lake or such. And in a even loosely forrested ore otherwise uneven terrain.. I think they were completely useless. (EDIT: I am wrong.)
The theory would have to be that the ravine when full of snow creates a "snow road" through the forest without any mature trees to impede progress. There is a photograph of a young ravine tree approx 10cm in diameter snapped off. If it was coming downhill then level conditions would be unimportant. The depth of the tracks are dependent on the size of the skis and the cloud of snow the fan would leave in it's wake imo.
There was a military installation relatively nearby apparently. This theory has merit but i think as an explanation for the ravine deaths only, something else happened, perhaps a missile/electrical phenomena and these vehicle(s) were there to observe.

September 10, 2020, 10:30:43 AM
Reply #11
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MDGross


An examination of the case files raises two big questions: 1. Was the investigation opened on Feb. 6, meaning the bodies had already been discovered? 2. Why was no case number assigned to the investigation? It's such a routine and important step to assign a case number to any investigation that I don't believe you can attribute a lack of a case number to clerical error or just an oversight. It would seem that a decision was made not to assign a case number. Why?

September 10, 2020, 10:47:29 AM
Reply #12
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Teddy

Administrator
I know I am quite new here and should better hold myself back a little bit more. But I am so impressed by Teodora's immense engagement over the years to bring people from all over the world to think about the tragedy and finally find out the truth, that it is hard, to hold back.

Chris

Chris, don't hold back, please.
Firstly - "This case will not get solved by itself", as someone said to me.
Secondly, you are not even aware how deep have I gone.
These are pics from exactly a month to date.
I got in a car accident (with the white Peugeot) and then got into the ambulance and attended an autopsy of someone that fell (or was pushed) from the 5th floor.
On the second photo the young (and beautiful blond) medical examiner is explaining to me how the ribs break in high velocity impact.




There were no casualties in my car accident. The commonality is that it all happened in the same day and the accident put me on the path of a passing ambulance that stopped and asked if they are needed.
I am gathering information that is amounting to a conclusion that I will publish soon.
So Chris, I haven't stopped thinking about the Dyatlov case for a day in about 8 years now.
My involvement with the case started after another car accident in 2012.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 11:08:21 AM by Teddy »

September 10, 2020, 01:22:34 PM
Reply #13

Chris

Guest
Thank you for encouraging me, Teodora! You are right, things will not improve without people connecting and opening their minds.

Keep up your engangement in a way, that lifts your spirits. The Dyatlov Group members deserve being not forgotten.

Chris


September 10, 2020, 02:58:03 PM
Reply #14

Chris

Guest
After reading the snow mobile theory, I am left partially smiling. Great suggestive reading. The author starts with: "Versions are pouring out of a cornucopia. The overwhelming majority of them are born of the author's fantasy and imagination." Well...

September 11, 2020, 04:08:26 AM
Reply #15
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Nigel Evans


An examination of the case files raises two big questions: 1. Was the investigation opened on Feb. 6, meaning the bodies had already been discovered? 2. Why was no case number assigned to the investigation? It's such a routine and important step to assign a case number to any investigation that I don't believe you can attribute a lack of a case number to clerical error or just an oversight. It would seem that a decision was made not to assign a case number. Why?
Because the real case file is somewhere else. The case file we see is a sanitized version for public consumption by Ivanov who was obeying strict orders.

https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014?rbid=18461
  • But let’s get back to the Dyatlov theme. At a glance the case suggests a complex set of questions; there is no case number, it lacks expert examination reports and other procedural instruments. It is unclear who investigated the matter. Tempalov initiates the investigation and then we see him being interrogated himself. How can that be? I have a feeling that case papers had been thoroughly “tidied up”.
  • Sure! It can’t be called a criminal case in the full sense of the word, it is only scraps left over and raising no suspicion. No conclusion can be based on such fragments. Hackwork, nothing else. An awful example of an investigation case. It’s worlds different from what we had done then, like night and day.
  • But there is an inventory list for the case compiled by Ivanov! Does it mean that Ivanov was making a list of an already sanitized case?
  • He did what his superiors told him to do, and the case had to look exactly so. What else could he do?
Deputy Federal Prosecutor for Investigations Urakov arrived and immediately asked us to bring him the case. He told us to write the closing statement. He went to the Oblast committee and took Klinov and Ivanov with him. When Ivanov cane back he told me that an order was to close the case. We argued: how can we close it, on which grounds? There are nine dead bodies in it!
Can you imagine how painful it was for Ivanov and me to carry out Urakov’s order? At the height of the work we get a slap on the wrist. Klinov calls us and says; round it off, orders must be executed, without discussion. It was at that moment that we put in this phrase about a “compelling elemental force”
.
Urakov was the second most senior prosecutor in Russia. He travelled from Moscow to Sverdlovsk specifically to close the case at the height of the investigation. An unheard of event.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 04:13:59 AM by Nigel Evans »

September 11, 2020, 04:12:04 AM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


@Teddy - looking forward to your conclusion.

September 11, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Reply #17
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Jean Daniel Reuss



    Aleks Kandr's main starting hypothesis which can be considered as the answer to the question "WHO? "question about DPI is :

   WHO = a few perverted guardians - or former guardians - of the Ivdellag Gulag camps located in the Vizhay region.

Consequently, the objections to the arguments of the supporters of "Murdered" or "Altercation on the pass", i.e. Per Inge Oestmoen, hoosiergose, Eduard Tumanov ....almost completely disappear.

I have admitted Aleks Kandr's conjecture - under the name of "my hypothesis N°3" - because, with simple reasoning, this conjecture on "WHO" allows us to give a simple answer to each of the very many questions that arise about DPI.

Obviously - there is not - and there will not be - absolutely irrefutable evidence, but the point here is to find the most probable and complete explanation which, at least, verifies Occam's razor principle.

I therefore suggest reading Aleks Kandr's arguments - which is rather (very) long - and also studying the history of the USSR during the period 1953-1964, which is also called Khrushchev's Thaw.
   http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=12235.0
Note : I am not sure that I have correctly understood all of Aleks Kandr's arguments because he writes in Russian while I do not even know the Cyrillic alphabet !

....big questions: 1. Was the investigation opened on February. 6, meaning the bodies had already been discovered ? ......

On February 6, 1959, the corpses are not discovered but the KGB is aware of the death of the hickers, because the killers have already confessed the result of their attack during the night of February 1 to 2.

    More precisely, I propose a sequence of events that looks like this:

The attackers left on February 1st around 7 am from their North-2 base in pursuit of the hickers, easily following the tracks left by the 9 skiers.
  •••      10 hours to go from North-2 to the tent; consequently

February 1st, 5 pm : the tent, being set up, is in sight of the attackers who stop and watch from afar without being noticed by the hikers.

February 1st, between 8 pm and 9 pm : attack triggering.
  •••      Numerous episodes in what can be described as night combat without firearms.
         
February 2nd, between 3 am and 8 am: end of the fights with victory of the attackers.
  •••      9 hours to go from the tent to North-2  following the itinerary of February 1st; consequently

February 2nd around 7 pm: Attackers return to their North-2 base.

February 3 : The attackers returned home to the Vizhay region.
  •••      But the attackers cannot hide the suspicious ecchymoses and bruises that are very visible on their faces, (some hickers had hard fists and hit strong);
  •••      therefore, the attackers are not able to hide them.
  •••      The attackers are denounced to the authorities; consequently

February 4: The attackers are immediately arrested at home by the KGB, who immediately begin interrogating them.
  •••      The KGB has "effective" methods for interrogating suspects, especially when it is in a hurry; consequently

February 5: The attackers confess to most of the events of the night of February 1 to 2.
  •••     The KGB is well organized and avoids unnecessary expenses.
            The KGB does not need either to have immediately additional details or to go to the pass to understand the mainlines
            - compromising for the      Khrushchev regime - of the situation; consequently, the KGB does not need to have any further details.

February 6: The investigations are officially open but without number (in anticipation of the foreseeable cover-up).

February: Khrushchev himself, with the agreement of his entire government, confirms the order to keep the identity of the culprits secret.
           (for in 1959 they are still - or were recently - rogue officials of the USSR).

Later (May 1959): The attackers are discreetly shot and buried.

Much later (2020): Putin confirms the maintenance of secrecy.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°

     Of course there are still thousands of other questions that arise to be able to fully explain the DPI, here is for example an excellent lead found by Mishka :

Mishka => General Discussion / Re: Who cut open the tent?   , August 10, 2020, 12:04:43 AM  --->  Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439
         ".....they heard some people arrived .................they were asked to leave the tent immediately because the place was in danger..."
See also :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439

The hurried exit from the tent, without the axes in hand, can be explained by trickery and deception. (ruse of war - like Troyan Horse).
Without threats, nor violence, but on the contrary with many kind and compassionate words


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

September 11, 2020, 12:50:14 PM
Reply #18
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RidgeWatcher


Teddy, I can't believe you still have your right lower arm. How very brave you must be. Looking at that left open elbow wound and seeing the visible hardware and knowing the months of IV antibiotic treatment along with very slow healing of tissue over that very mobile joint makes me cringe. I am glad your nightmare is over. I only hope there is no residual trauma damage to bear.

I thought that Igor Povetkin's theory was unique and could be a remote possibility but very unlikely. I know in Alaska, people, animals (mostly dogs) and things get run over by snowmobiles all the time, mostly related to alcohol endeavors. The engineering and mechanics of those early snowmobiles look somewhat pieced together and likely to suffer damage after running over something large, such as aa person or caribou or moose. The photos displayed of the snowmobiles look like they were more suited to the frozen rivers and tundra as opposed to Ural mountain hopping up steep ravines in the dark.

I am curious regarding Zina's right torso/flank deep tissue injury that actually wrapped around her body. In the dark and being very cold, if I was being pursued by a snowmobile I would run directly in the opposite direction it was coming at me from. Would this make a person traction or an obstacle? In order for these injuries to have occurred they in the manor in which they did then Zina, Lyuda and Semyon would have to have already been "downed" in one way or another. I still can't visualize how Zina's right torso wrap around injury could have happened this way. I would think that a much more malleable type of weapon would have been used on her to cause that specific injury.

Was there ever any mention of snowmobile tracks from Vizhay to Mt. Kholat Syakhl or anywhere in that region? Would agitators in Vizhay have enough leverage to accommodate themselves to 2-3 of these machines for 24-36 hours. Wouldn't they have gotten stuck a great deal of the time, especially in the canyon just below Dyatlov Pass. Hunters and hikers cross-country ski tracks hardly make a snowmobile track.

I think we are seeing a variety of weapons used on the hikers. I once had the opportunity to tour a prison in the desert of Arizona and they had a large wall of all the non-lethal weapons that had been handmade by the inmates that had been confiscated. That wall of weapons was fascinating and quite ornate. Not only engineered weapons but unique artwork carved and drawn into the weapons was fascinating. What I am getting at is I think there were a myriad of weapons used by the attackers.

Who were the attackers? Were they Vizhay government workers, old guards, old prisoners, angry foreigners who want to go home, the list is endless. Were any miners or logged offended in Vizhay? What was witnessed between Vizhay and Dyatlov Pass and why did witnesses stay silent or were ordered to stay silent.

I might be the only one but I have high hopes that this mystery will be solved one day, most likely on this forum. The original participants are dying out but I feel they have hid their personal secrets only to be found by the more curious among us.

September 12, 2020, 04:00:47 PM
Reply #19
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Jean Daniel Reuss



I still ramble on that, to explain the hurried exit from the tent, without any equipment for the cold and without the axes, the idea of the diabolical ruse (cunning) imagined by Mishka is the best.

As an illustration, I have developed this idea a little more precisely here:
August 11, 2020, 09:10:11 AM        Re: Who cut open the tent?        Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=690.msg10439#msg10439

When the hickers came out of the tent they thought they were meeting new friends who were coming to help them. The hickers were thankful to these nice strangers who came to save their lives.

It was only after several minutes that the hickers first began to suspect deception and then realized the Machiavellian treachery in all its horror.

We must add the (tactically) important element of total surprise. Because the discourse of the official authorities was to say: all is well now in 1959 in our motherland the USSR. Especially the hikers did not receive any advice that would have invited mistrust from the : "route commission at the Sverdlovsk city committee on physical culture and sport".

To sum up, I agree with the general opinion of Per Inge Oestmoen.

"There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine."

   Reply #18
.....I think we are seeing a variety of weapons used on the hikers.......

The attackers used wooden weapons, perhaps even wrapped in cloth or rags. This is a process, more difficult than the use of firearms, which is sometimes used by some hunters on animals of various sizes, in order to obtain tanned skins or impeccable furs, i.e. without any holes.

But in this case, for the equivalent of a night attack commando, the essential advantage of these blunt objects is to be able to stun the opponent silently, or almost silently. If the first shot is perfectly adjusted, the noise is low and the neighbors do not notice that one of theirs has just been neutralized.

Vietnamka  : Murdered / Re: Murder Indead     « on: January 23, 2019, 10:40:55 PM »
 "why the victims were not simply shot ?"
"...the simplest answer is  - attackers didnt have weapons [firearm].....
Weapons were strictly prohibited in USSR except for hunting weapons...
 But the blows were very effective. This tells us that attackers were  very well trained to kill...."


   Reply #18
....Who were the attackers? Were they Vizhay government workers, old guards, old prisoners, angry foreigners who want to go home, the list is endless....

RidgeWatcher
"So somewhere around Vishay in early 1959 there lived a sociopath ex-Zek with equally dangerous friends. This sociopath even though angered into a rage by a piece of paper and a young person's loose tongue in January 1959 had to have a previous pattern of severe violence and even murder."

Replace ex-zeks by ex-guards.

According to my hypothesis N°3, the attackers (or murderers) are guards or former guards of the Gulag camps that had been part of the NKVD before 1954.
I therefore renounce my bad hypothesis N°2 which accused ex-zeks.

As a consequence of Stalin's death the NKVD (Stalinist) was suppressed in 1954 and then replaced at the cost of a change of personnel by the KGB (Khrushchevian).

Aleks Kandr  has written a web page solely dedicated to his arguments to show that the 4 eyeballs and the tongue were taken away by the attackers.
(victory trophy or proof of the successful mission ?).
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

This directs suspicion toward some Gulag personnel, and not toward released political prisoners under house arrest.

See for example : Danzig Baldaev (1925-2005)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review
I am copying a significant comment::
""....Atrocities of Gulag are wellknown - a lot of evidence by eyewitnesses and victims of the Gulag themselves - mentioned here in this article may have happened indeed as individual episode as obviously there was some persent of sadists among NKVD personel ( law enforcement, army and service in penetenciary system attract more % of sadists then ordinary proffessions as it is proved by psychologists)

   Reply #18
... What was witnessed between Vizhay and Dyatlov Pass and why did witnesses stay silent or were ordered to stay silent....

In my opinion there were no witnesses between January 28 and February 3, neither in the Auspiya Valley nor on the Kholat Syakhl.

   Reply #18
I might be the only one but I have high hopes that this mystery will be solved one day, most likely on this forum.

You are not the only one to have the high hope that this mystery will be solved one day, most likely on this forum.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

September 17, 2020, 07:43:37 PM
Reply #20
Offline

Squatch


After reading the snow mobile theory, I am left partially smiling. Great suggestive reading. The author starts with: "Versions are pouring out of a cornucopia. The overwhelming majority of them are born of the author's fantasy and imagination." Well...

I am left wondering what the fuel requirements would be for snowmobiles to accomplish this. Could they carry enough fuel to get to the hikers, run them over, then return to their starting place(s)?

Or maybe I missed that part in the theory?