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Author Topic: Yuri Yudin's observation  (Read 1177 times)

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October 31, 2022, 06:54:43 AM
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GlennM


After Yuri Yidin died, a personal notebook was found. I became aware that unlike many of us, he spent every day of the remainder of his life trying to get to the bottom of the tragedy. If he could not, what can we expect from ourselves? I am puzzled by an entry he wrote with regard to the two Yuri's found at the cedar. His entry said he was puzzled by the lack of leg and foot damage to them, considering they trod 1.5 km over snow and rock in their socks.

How in the world would Mr. Yudin know that detail in the first place?

If it is true, what does that mean for our lines of inquiry?

He also claims that branches of an unexpected and different species of tree were found in the snow den. What does this say about the person who made the observation?

Mr. Yudin seems to imply that there was a connection between the Soviet rocketry program and the demise the hikers. If he was convinced of this, surely he would have steered people who approached him on the matter in that direction. I think that has gone nowhere.

Is what he is hinting at meaning that a concussion near the tent injured several hikers and forced all to go for cover in the woods? Is that what the out of focus spot of light photograph is about?  It still does not explain the undamaged feet and legs of the two Yuri's. If they were injured at the tent and then made tracks for the forest, they walked. If they died at the tent and were carried to the woods, that does not equate to footsteps in the snow.

If Mr. Yudin spends his life contemplating what happened on that slope and dies none the wiser, what does this imply for us?  If the cause of death was obvious, so too would the answer be obvious. If the cause of death was not obvious and one step removed from the precipitating event, then all that follows is and always will be speculative. Therefore, no matter how clever we are in our logic and intuition, we, like Mr. Yudin have been spinning our wheels for six decades. That produces a deep rut.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 07:24:09 AM by Teddy »
 
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October 31, 2022, 07:22:44 AM
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Teddy

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https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes

How in the world would Mr. Yudin know that detail in the first place?

He identified the bodies in the morgue.

He also claims that branches of an unexpected and different species of tree were found in the snow den.

Yudin wrote: "it is said that the flooring was made with fir branches, but in fact there were only spruce trees around."

Could have fooled me.


 
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October 31, 2022, 04:37:36 PM
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GlennM


https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes

How in the world would Mr. Yudin know that detail in the first place?

He identified the bodies in the morgue.

He also claims that branches of an unexpected and different species of tree were found in the snow den.

Yudin wrote: "it is said that the flooring was made with fir branches, but in fact there were only spruce trees around."

Could have fooled me.


Teddy, I think the condition of the two Yuris does support your fallen tree hypothesis. No damaged feet and legs because they did not hike from the tent at 880 to the cedar. That is significant.  Do you feel the three who were found enroute for the tent at 880 were really trying for the labaz? 

Surely, Mr. Yuden knew of your and Igor's broken branch theory. Did he ever give you encouragement?
 

October 31, 2022, 05:02:49 PM
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Teddy

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My theory is that the tent was at the cedar where the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were found. And they were staged after that. The fact that their feet were undamaged confirms twice my theory. First they never walked anywhere, and second, they were washed at the morgue, then returned back.

Yudin died in 2013. Our book came out in 2021. This is when the theory was published for the first time.

P.S. It's Yudin, not Yuden. I fixed it in you original post but don't want to keep doing it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:08:10 AM by Teddy »
 
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October 31, 2022, 08:17:52 PM
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GlennM


Teddy, thanks for your attention and patience with my spelling oversight. In your expeditions to the area, did you obtain photographic or physical evidence of the fallen branch?

You mention the bodies were washed. Surely there was external bleeding. Would you expect that the combined crush of the branch and the injuries of the sleepers would have left both blood and plant debris in the canvas tent? Was it there? I do not know.

Do you think staging a tent scene , a snow den scene , two corpses at the cedar and three headed back to the staged tent is particularly risky? If any one thing did not ring true, then suspicion arises.  Someone would notice. Did anyone in the first or second official investigation point out a suspicious anomaly.?

I think it is claimed that the dead were brought in to the medical examiner cleaned, dressed and returned to the woods,,or,sent home for burial.Imdo not know. It seems to be reported both ways. If the former, do you think it is very odd that persons would stage all these scenes and yet would thaw and wash up dead bodies only to return them back into the woods? If the bodies were thawed a second time, would a pathologist know this? Would the cleanliness of the deceased not be suspect? I apologise if my understanding is at fault.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 08:23:32 PM by GlennM »
 

October 31, 2022, 09:50:29 PM
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Ziljoe


https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes

How in the world would Mr. Yudin know that detail in the first place?

He identified the bodies in the morgue.

He also claims that branches of an unexpected and different species of tree were found in the snow den.

Yudin wrote: "it is said that the flooring was made with fir branches, but in fact there were only spruce trees around."

Could have fooled me.



I think Yudin is speculating about the feet and socks generally, perhaps of all the hikers. The statement is taken from his manuscripts after his death that were found in his apartment. 

He is reported to have written in TAU forum the following.

Yudin's conclusions on clothing (answers to questions from the forum 14.V.2008)
Dear Aleксander! I am answering Olga's questions from the TAU forum.

About wadded quilts and fur jackets.
According to the inventory, there were 6 of them in the tent and one was in S. Kolevatov's backpack.

In the tent was I. Dyatlov's leather fur jacket with a zipper. K. Thibault was found in a fur jacket (I think his own). Total = 9 pcs.

As for the inconsistency in the inventory, he has a quilted jacket, then perhaps this is an incorrect entry by investigator Ivanov. He wrote the inventory as he needed in his own handwriting. He wrote that I gave my fur sleeveless jacket to S. Kolevatov, while I gave it at the 2nd Northern to Y. Doroshenko.

He attributed to me that I allegedly identified the intimate parts of Zina's clothing and what the first five bodies were found in, but naturally I could not do this since I was not present at the autopsy and undressing of the bodies... I was naive and signed the inventory without reading it, firmly believing in the actions of the investigator.


It's all as confusing as ever. I believe a number of later expeditions walked from the tent location to the ceder in socks without any problems. As for spruce or firs , I would suspect it's just poor statements or translation.

However , there are the reports of  explosions / mining in the area along with the halos observed in the sky , the halos would be an indication of potential ground explosions. I recall reading that this was occurring at the same time as the search.

It seemed a busy place with Mansi, geologists, hikers, loggers , escaped prisoners et al.


 

November 01, 2022, 02:55:04 AM
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Teddy

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He attributed to me that I allegedly identified the intimate parts of Zina's clothing and what the first five bodies were found in, but naturally I could not do this since I was not present at the autopsy and undressing of the bodies... I was naive and signed the inventory without reading it, firmly believing in the actions of the investigator.

Yudin saw the bodies but was not present at the autopsy when they would have been stripped from their clothing in the context of identifying undergarments.
https://dyatlovpass.com/yuri-yudin#clothing

As Zoya Nikitichna Savina, nurse’s aide at the hospital, would later recall she saw Yudin crying at the morgue’s door. As Yudin himself would later recall, he was summoned to the Sverdlovsk regional prosecutor's office for identification and dispatched to Ivdel. In the morgue, Yuri saw Dyatlov's body under a sheet, and a little later the still frozen corpse of Slobodin, which had just been transported from the pass. Recollections of Zoya Nikitichna Savina: https://www.kp.ru/daily/25946.5/2890373/

In your expeditions to the area, did you obtain photographic or physical evidence of the fallen branch?

Not a branch, a huge tree, another cedar. They call it Teodora's cedar. It is 6m from The cedar, very close to the bodies and fire.
The dead cedar is covered with moss and you can see it in this frame: https://youtu.be/F28fwI_fhig?t=767



Here I am riding the tree https://youtu.be/_JkkKm44iEM?t=311



This is the semicircle of the trunk




You can see that the tree is uprooted




Searching with metal detectors and finding the tin can





This is not all, for the first time after the incident a tin can was dug up from the area of the cedar which will most probably prove to be from 1958. For now form the marking at the bottom we know that it is from one of this years: 1948, 1958, 1968 or 1978. You can read about it here: https://dyatlovpass.com/LMKK
I am in touch with the plant that manufactured the can (they gave me an official confirmation that this is their can) waiting on a definitive way to narrow down the year. I sent them some ideas. Waiting on a response. Until now the exchange was made though the paper that recognized the importance of the finding and call their article "Canned time", but since it was going slow now I started writing the Lyubinskiy Molochnokonservnyy Kombinat see how fast it goes.

Since I cam back from the expedition I am overwhelmed with evidence that support my theory and I am trying to find conformation form dendrologist.
I gave tree cores and waiting to hear back. I am publishing information here for the experts, this is not ready for the public but since you jumped the gun - here is information in progress.

GlennM, I don't have a comment for the rest of your questions. I mean I can get into the dept of how was the tent handled after it was found and what did it look like etc. but whatever I can tell you you can find it yourself and draw your own conclusions.

I am so overwhelmed with the importance of what I have to prove that it is taking all my time and focus. I agreed on an interview Nov 20, I am not sure I will have the results by then, but I will definitely share what I know. It is a lot more than I have published. I am not ready to wrap it up with a conclusion.

When I have back the results from the dendrologist I will move all this information into a dedicated post.
Dr. Momchil Panayotov
University of Forestry, Dendrology Dept.
http://dendrologybg.com/dendrochron/team_Momchil_Panayotov.htm
https://scholar.google.bg/citations?user=_r4micIAAAAJ&hl=en
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 08:32:09 AM by Teddy »
 
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November 01, 2022, 09:02:24 AM
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Ziljoe


Looking forward to hearing more of your findings Teddy.
 
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November 01, 2022, 10:15:16 PM
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GlennM


Ziljoe your comment "I think Yudin is speculating about the feet and socks generally, perhaps of all the hikers. The statement is taken from his manuscripts after his death that were found in his apartment."
This is interesting. It casts doubt on the veracity of his statement. It keeps alive the idea that the hikers really were camped at 880 on 1079 and were caught in a slab slide.

Teddy, you have worked so hard and discovered so much. With this fallen cedar, the core sample is going to really be significant, especially if the tin can's year of manufacture is narrowed. If your namesake tree is the one that impacted the hikers, there will certainly be a graphic representation, I hope.

When I see the photos of the forest so heavily overgrown, it is remarkable that your team can get their bearings. Perhaps it is because a photograph can only show a small portion of a very big area. Still, you and others have diligently document everything. We who participate in your forum appreciate it.

We are all eagerly waiting your November surprise. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 01:19:59 AM by Teddy »
 
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November 03, 2022, 01:02:49 AM
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Teddy

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Hello Teddy,

My theory is that the tent was at the cedar where the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were found. And they were staged after that. The fact that their feet were undamaged confirms twice my theory. First they never walked anywhere, and second, they were washed at the morgue, then returned back.

Returned back from Ivdel morgue to Kholyat Syakhl?

6 bodies were found and brought to the morgue, the tent was folded and stored. Everything normal, it was an accident.  Then the bosses in Ivdel got scared to be involved into the deaths of the hikers for which unprecedented search operation was launched at the height of the XXI congress of Khrushchev. They were exploring for uranium in the area which is done with explosives. My next expedition I will find this metal pipe 200 m from the cedar, which again, everyone saw and didn't notice, because they didn't know what to make of it. Why would a geologist pipe matter?



So we figure out Sulman, Prodanov, Shestopalov and Ivanov must have known to execute this. They returned the bodies back to where they died, which is under the cedar, where they were camping. The only think that could have saved their skin is the tent to be pitched away from their place of work. The footprints are theirs, not of the hikers. No one walked down the slope naked, barefoot, in the dark.

Proof that the geologists were flying over and working at the area of the incident: https://dyatlovpass.com/aeromagnetic-survey-maps

Here is the gist of my theory: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1051.msg17199#msg17199

This is the book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VF5Y5SZ/
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:28:43 AM by Teddy »
 

November 03, 2022, 02:15:52 AM
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Teddy

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Proof that the geologists were flying over and working at the area of the incident: https://dyatlovpass.com/aeromagnetic-survey-maps

Only the year is mentioned in this documents, how can you know that the flights took place in January and February, rather than in July or September?

I didn't say at the time of the incident because there are no dates in the documents.
But a searcher, Syunikaev, requested with a telegram the explosions to stop: https://dyatlovpass.com/syunikaev-2009
Exploration was done in winter. In summer the area is a swamp.
You are right, no dates are mentioned in the documents but the picture is so circumstantial that it began to be convincing.

I dare you to find so much concrete evidence pointing to a certain theory.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 02:33:56 AM by Teddy »
 

November 03, 2022, 07:29:17 AM
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Ziljoe


Exploration was done in winter. In summer the area is a swamp.

So the years "59-60" means winter of 1959-1960? The flights were made during the winter after the tragedy? But if it was radiation detection or magnetic, what difference between winter and summer?

But a searcher, Syunikaev, requested with a telegram the explosions to stop.

I don't understand... are you saying that these explosions were related to the death of the hikers? But if they were, how could your "conspirators" allow them during the time when tens of rescuers were in the mountains?

I read the other day ( can't remember which link) that it was reported in someone's statment that they were looking for uranium on the tent side of the valley, it is reported that they used 5kg anti-tank mines if I remember correctly. The explosions were taking place at the time of search.

I would have expected to be reported more though.
 

November 03, 2022, 07:49:41 AM
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Ehtnisba


what does this imply for us?  If the cause of death was obvious, so too would the answer be obvious. If the cause of death was not obvious and one step removed from the precipitating event, then all that follows is and always will be speculative. Therefore, no matter how clever we are in our logic and intuition, we, like Mr. Yudin have been spinning our wheels for six decades. That produces a deep rut.

Yes, I agree with most of this part and the deep rut is caused a lack of imagination for most, lack of courage for some, shame for others.

But the wounds at the head and at the ribs had Russian nicknames:

- Tабуретовка (from taburetka ‘stool’): 1. A form of sadism in prisons whereby an out of favour prisoner is hit around the head with a wooden stool or a small bench until he loses consciousness. 2. The same act performed on a political prisoner by an order of the NKVD (Drawings from the Gulag, p. 213)

- Pазбить фанеру (to crack the plywood): Breaking the victim’s chest with a hammer. (Drawings from the Gulag, p. 212)

And read also Euphrosinia Kersnovskaya's memoirs of the Norillag:

As he dictated to me [when performing autopsy at camp morgue], the picture cleared up, and there was no doubt that it was murder. Assassination with point-blank shots. Heads smashed by butts ... Rib cage, broken with a blunt object...

For people who knew how ugly and hellish was the backyard of the USSR, it was obvious... Taburetovka, Razbit faneru... Stooling, cracking the plywood... When horrors become so normal they receive a nickname. Zeks could write an autopsy of all 9 hikers with the complete description of all wounds using only the nicknames of their daily language.

In Butugychag camp (Лагерь Бутугычаг) in Magadan, the Soviets lost all remains of I don't know what and were methodically sawing the skulls of the dead prisoners... In more civilized part of the country they had nicknames, again, for punching with bayonets the skulls and chests of the dead Zeks...

Of course many things are not obvious in the DPI, they demand an effort, for the us who live in neighborhoods that have enjoyed civilization and peace for a long time. But I think it is impossible not to face the darkness, and anyway, in the end bones come to the surface:

https://syktyvkar.1istochnik.ru/news/109815

My conviction is that modernity forces us to face our horrors. It is impossible to have both modernity and oblivion. No way to escape. And as a consequence, you understand easily that all "natural" explanations of these stigmata left on the students, when they are nothing but the expression of a faith in oblivion, seem to me absolutely anti-modern and archaic... ;-)

Can one blow of a hammer break 6 ribs? I am asking about 1 blow, because if are more the fractures won't be in one line.
Homo homini lupus est!
 

November 03, 2022, 10:08:47 AM
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Ziljoe


Hi Ehtnisba,

It is a good point regarding the straight line of the rib fractures. It would suggest a single blow with the force distributed across the rib cage. I would suspect several single hammer blows would leave different broken ribs plus considerable brushing. 

There other  suggestions put forward about the ribs are Teddy's tree, Jean Daniel Reuss club and the possibility of a snow collapse in a snow hole/ cave.Some people think snow caves only exist in fantasy land though.
 

November 03, 2022, 04:58:06 PM
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GlennM


I would like to add that I believe cold is numbing and the hikers were numbed by the cold, Any injury such as a fall or a crush by a natural object like a tree could produce considerable damage if the victim does not instinctively try to protect themselves or does so too slowly. In this regard, the loss of balance is a contributing factor. It seems reasonable to me that the skeletal injuries of the hikers can be explained just this way.

Perhaps because trauma produced by attack and explosions are far better documented in forensics, it is natural that we DPI investigators use those comparisons. .The problem of course is that a comparison is just that, using the known to understand the unknown. The fault lies in allowing the comparison to then become the fact. That is to say that if an explosion or a beating produced similar injuries, then an explosion or a beating actually is the explanation.." If it looks and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck." When this conclusion is reached ,investigation ceases and defense of ones theory begins. It is still speculation and speculation should be defended with a measure of modesty.
 

November 03, 2022, 06:55:08 PM
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GlennM


Yes, it is, Charles. I thought that was clear. The effects of cold are well understood and not speculative.The phenomena of persons injuring themselves owing to the effects of hypothermia is not speculative. The conclusion that the injuries suffered by the hikers is the result of collision with natural objects is speculative but in my opinion requires the least number of precipitating circumstances. Theories regarding assault and the like require a number of prerequisites, none of which are part of the official canon of the tragedy. I encourage those who advance those ideas to continue their diligence. Follow the money.
 
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November 03, 2022, 07:38:36 PM
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Ziljoe


Thanks GlennM

I think this may be part of the problem. Was the autopsy done in a forensic context.

"For example, a forensic autopsy is carried out when the cause of death may be a criminal matter, while a clinical or academic autopsy is performed to find the medical cause of death and is used in cases of unknown or uncertain death, or for research purposes"

If it was a search and rescue, which I believe it was, when did it tip in to the criminal case?

Whatever happened, the cold played a part. Frostbite etc. The abrasions are characteristic of survival in cold environments. The broken ribs are more consistent with a snow collapse or tree. Particularly because they are along a straight line.

However, the thugs could of led them in to snow cave and it then fell on the hikers, without intetion, who knows . Broken bones does not necessarily mean that it was done by others but others may have been involved?. Like wise, because they sustained broken bones, it doesn't mean outsiders were not involved in some way but to jump from broken bones, must mean other humans did it ,is not logical. It is speculative . We are all speculating.

Reasons for leaving the tent are, wind, sound (WAB theory) , snow slip/slide, mining, Wolverine ( my favourite) , outsiders( bad guys) and the new concept by Teddy.

Whatever we all think , cold was the killer on the whole.

 
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November 03, 2022, 07:43:54 PM
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Ziljoe


To add, I can't imagine a group of assailants chasing after a group of hikers, battling the same weather conditions and logistics of food and survival , carrying a heavy mallet to mush two people's rib cages. I don't get it.
 
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November 03, 2022, 09:19:56 PM
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GlennM


Poor Charles, you are just not getting it. Please continue your personal investigation. Follow the money and see who profited from the hikers demise. Those of us who hold a different idea will await your findings.

To return to the topic, it seems the condition of the two Yuris' lower extremities post morten  is still open to debate. Perhaps the legs and feet were in fact affected by a hike over rocky terrain. This would put them at the tent at 880 ft. On 1079 prior to moving down hill. Yuri Yuden was convinced there was military involvement and to hear some posts, the area was a veritable beehive of activites including mining, logging, hunting and other expeditions. He couldn't get to the bottom of the tragedy and he had his whole adult life to contemplate it.

Just what did he think the missing element was that would solve the mystery? I don't think he ever said.
 

November 04, 2022, 07:43:11 PM
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Ehtnisba


Can one blow of a hammer break 6 ribs? I am asking about 1 blow, because if are more the fractures won't be in one line.
Maybe you have in mind a hammer like this one:



But Zeks were working in mining, railroad construction, quarries, their tools were very different:



"Hammer – a tool used by prisoners of the BelBaltLag, used for the construction of the White Sea-Baltic Canal (1931-1933). It was found in 2004 on the bottom of the canal, between Locks Nos. 10 and 11 during repair-works":



"It is part of the permanent exhibition in the Segezha Municipal Museum Centre. (Photo 19.08.2005). SIZE 18x10x10 cm."

There is no reason to doubt of the testimonies of the men and women who suffered from the soviet regime.

Baldaev said they they used to break the victim’s chest with a "hammer", Kersnovskaya saw the rib cage broken with a "blunt object", and in Kholyat Syakhl, it could have been done with a rock (Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in the creek) or a foot kick. The point here is that they used to go after the rib cage, that it was done so commonly they had a special name for the practice (Pазбить фанеру: to crack the plywood) and a name telling how easy it was to crack it and how fragile it was... they did not call it "to crack the concrete" nor "to crack the steel beams"... "plywood".

😁😁😁 grin1 yes I meant the ikea hammer. You guessed it. I also imagine thin legged stool and not doubting the testimonies but imaginig the rezults of taburetka and smashed ribs as very messy like from the Ikea one they should look. With 18sm long and monster thing I see the flail chest ideally . For 6 in Dubinina when I measured my chest 20sm is all my 6 ribs where hers are broken and I am 1.70m high. She was stated as less. Zolotarov is also thin framed and if I remember 1.70-1.74 as heith so THAT hammer fits ideally. Nikolay 2x3 square indented part in the whole ( was it 7sm crack?) cracked skull is exactly shape and size of my parents 70s taburetkas all the same produced in those years  . I am from ex Soviet country so can relate to your theory. Without big knowledge in hammers I got the snowmobiles, but nobody answered me have these back perpellered car like 50s snowmobiles were cabable to go uphill? I find them used in nice frozen river type of terrains when photographed and can't find chained version from them .

Homo homini lupus est!
 

November 04, 2022, 08:07:53 PM
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Ehtnisba


Baldaev said they they used to break the victim’s chest with a "hammer", Kersnovskaya saw the rib cage broken with a "blunt object", and in Kholyat Syakhl, it could have been done with a rock (Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in the creek) or a foot kick. The point here is that they used to go after the rib cage, that it was done so commonly they had a special name for the practice (Pазбить фанеру: to crack the plywood) and a name telling how easy it was to crack it and how fragile it was... they did not call it "to crack the concrete" nor "to crack the steel beams"... "plywood".

😁😁😁 grin1 yes I meant the ikea hammer. You guessed it. I also imagine thin legged stool and not doubting the testimonies but imaginig the rezults of taburetka and smashed ribs as very messy like from the Ikea one they should look. With 18sm long and monster thing I see the flail chest ideally . For 6 in Dubinina when I measured my chest 20sm is all my 6 ribs where hers are broken and I am 1.70m high. She was stated as less. Zolotarov is also thin framed and if I remember 1.70-1.74 as heith so THAT hammer fits ideally. Nikolay 2x3 square indented part in the whole ( was it 7sm crack?) cracked skull is exactly shape and size of my parents 70s taburetkas all the same produced in those years  . I am from ex Soviet country so can relate to your theory.

I doubt attackers brought a sledgehammer at the mountain, they had other means to "crack the plywood": rocks from the creek, foot kicks.

Happy to have guessed... dance1

Well once you know how the hammer works anything same size or bigger and same density will do the job .
Bringing it sounds helpful too 😇
Homo homini lupus est!
 

November 05, 2022, 02:45:31 PM
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Ehtnisba


Audacious! It could fit with Syunikaev testimony:

-What were you told happened to the hikers?g
-We were told that the group went on a hike and died. But they were killed!
-Did you decide that yourself?
-No. The prisoners told us.
-How did they know?
-The prisoners knew all the news - and what was happening in the Far East, and in Irkutsk. And here, right under their nose, a tragedy happened. We, the convoy, lived with the convicts. And, of course, we discussed this case. So the convicts said - this is murder, but you are looking in the wrong place.
-So if the prisoners told you about the death of the hikers, then it turns out that one of the prisoners killed them?
-Although most of them were imprisoned for murder, but no, it was not the convicts who killed the hikers. By that time, I had served for the third year already and knew the convicts' habits well. They would not rush after the hikers into the mountains. There was nothing special to take from the group. No values to justify the risk. And if the convicts ran away, they tried to leave by railway. A fugitive cannot sit in the forest for a long time in winter. The dogs will find them while crawling in snowdrifts up to the waist.
-Did the investigators interview the prisoners?
-Do think so.
-How about you?
-No.


https://dyatlovpass.com/syunikaev-2021

Prisoners could know about a murder if they saw guards leaving their camp just before Feb. 01 and coming back just after (I think Syunikaev is right and the prisoners too). And specially if they saw these guards bringing a sledgehammer with them.

I don't know have u wrote it already, but there is a national saying in my country "the news travel faster in prisions" or "the prisioners know all". Same gonna be applicable for a small village/town when the happening is in/near it. Word of mouth.
Also two other things:
1. As far as I know hiking and mountaineering accidents are just such - incidents. There is no prosecutors, no investigators , all is found established, end. Here we have a precedent of opening a CRIMINALCASE. And nobody gives a f*** for that simple fact. No one exept probably relatives asks " but wait a minute, why". I see answer as simple - thing have been looking criminal long before the rav4. I watch corpses on K2, Everest, Kola Paninsula, etc. Well, poke my eyes out that never have seen beaten corpse like those 9... Should I wash my eyes with bleech and accept mountain winter dead? Fight with themselves to death... I have had severe fights with friends outside. Big hatered even escalating to sepsrating paths , but none of it sane mind neighter me has tought ot bashing them on the head or thinking of a kill. In these hot moments I think "i want to punch that moron" I punch it, he punches me, done! A smash on the head, a kill , never if suddenly someone is not psychopatic serial killer in disguise (some people blame Zolotarov - I like him, he is human). Well one mad person if we accept it could be against at least 4 more. 7 against 2 - we will have 2 dead. 1 mecha Zolotoryov killing 8,why he is idiot to kill himself too .... Between them scenario just makes me lose my sanity.
2. The wisdon bodies tell no lie.
Lets forget even the authopsies. I am wondering will there be honest person seeing pictures only of those 5 first bodies, not knowing who they are, where are found, who is gonna say "ah they look like Everest victims frozen" or everybody will have to admit that those faces are of a dead boxers or beaten. Dismissing hands, bones, authopsies. Only those bad quality black and white photographs from them 5.

As a whole I am not finding mystery in the case. The mistery is in the Western people thinking (very egocentrical/self centered, confident but zero experience in skiing trip,... So why confident,why trying illogical logic ??? Enigma in my opinion) and on other side all Easterners denial but inner knowing ,so at least acceptance of malice as we are not thaught to never ignore malice ...

I like you are putting posts about psylosophy and psychology. The root sits there. Human behaviour is an enigma. Hence I prefer the to be away , as is the answer why those 9 and many others are ready to go out there in the harsh nature.
Homo homini lupus est!
 

November 06, 2022, 05:14:02 PM
Reply #22
Offline

GlennM


I think you both nailed it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 07:34:33 PM by GlennM »
 

November 07, 2022, 05:53:22 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


                Reply #26
To add, I can't imagine a group of assailants chasing after a group of hikers, battling the same weather conditions and logistics of food and survival , carrying a heavy mallet to mush two people's rib cages. I don't get it.

The 3 contract killers sent and paid probably by Prodanov or one of his NKVD colleagues had no difficulty in finding the 9 hikers.
The 3 killers were better dressed (Mansis style) and used to the climate than the hikers who were city dwellers.
The killers ate the food supplies of the hikers.
They were equipped with wood sticks weighing about 2 kg.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

November 16, 2022, 05:21:34 AM
Reply #24
Offline

Ziljoe


Mansi and Russians used to carry heavy axes fixed at their backpacks:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/1S-06.jpg

And anyway, with vintage ski boots, they could inflict the most severe fractures:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0036/2852/products/image_0e49864f-95a1-4414-94dd-463ea2b86aab_2000x.jpg

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0036/2852/products/vintage_leather_ski_boots_2000x.jpg

No need to risk the loss of an evidence such as a mallet if anything went wrong. The ski boots and rocks from the creek were good enough to do the job.

Here we can see a ski boot (at the bottom right) which is worth any mallet: ski boot

So it wasn't  a hammer or mallet, it was a ski boot that inflicted the injuries and fractured ribs?
 

November 16, 2022, 06:07:40 PM
Reply #25
Offline

GlennM


 

November 28, 2022, 04:42:50 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


Baldaev said they they used to break the victim’s chest with a "hammer", Kersnovskaya saw the rib cage broken with a "blunt object", and in Kholyat Syakhl, it could have been done with a rock (Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found in the creek) or a foot kick. The point here is that they used to go after the rib cage, that it was done so commonly they had a special name for the practice (Pазбить фанеру: to crack the plywood) and a name telling how easy it was to crack it and how fragile it was... they did not call it "to crack the concrete" nor "to crack the steel beams"... "plywood".


The crushing of the rib cage by elbow strikes in order to cause internal bleeding and even cardiac arrest is a well known technique in jiu jitsu. The Soviet secret police have long used these techniques.
 

November 28, 2022, 05:51:28 AM
Reply #27
Offline

GlennM


...and some people see Jesus on a wooden fence post or piece of toast. It is a matter of spinning the observed phenomena to fit a preconceived theory.  It could be the right conclusion, but any coin has two sides.  Follow the money. Who profits from killing 9 smart and valuable Soviet youth? Recall that civilian, military, academic and political figures were all involved. That is a lot of questioning minds. I5 has not stopped to this day.