January 29, 2023, 11:16:42 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Medical exam  (Read 710 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

December 06, 2022, 06:47:51 PM
Read 710 times
Offline

GlennM


The hikers were taken to a morgue. There they were cleaned and re-dressed. Later they were returned back to the woods after another yet another change of clothes. In order to accomplish this, the bodies had to experience some degree of thawing. Then, they were refrozen. Then they were thawed again for autopsy. Does anyone have experience with twice thawed frozen meat? Would not there be tissue degradation, mush, not to put too fine a point on it, indicative of a double freeze-thaw cycle?
 
The following users thanked this post: RMK, Manti

December 07, 2022, 09:41:49 AM
Reply #1
Online

Teddy

Administrator
You hit a raw nerve in me with this question.
There are many leads I want to follow and this is a very interesting one. I even bought this book back in the days.


Otze is a celebrity: National Geographic, here you can find more details. My interest was in the way he was found. As you can see from the cover above the mummy was frozen year- around only waist down, and his upper body was thawing and freezing for 5000+ years.

I was searching the internet for "Repeated Freeze-thaw Cycles on cadaver symptoms". Found this links:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Teresi%C5%84ski%20G%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=24557588
https://vdocuments.mx/european-council-of-legal-medicine.html
Even meant to write to Dr hab. n. med. Grzegorz Teresinski but never came around to do it.
Grzegorz Teresiński
Department of Forensic Medicine
Medical University of Lublin 
ul. Jaczewskiego 8
PL-20-090 Lublin
g.teresinski@am.lublin.pl

In my notes is also The pathophysiological mechanisms of the onset of death through accidental hypothermia and the presentation of "The little match girl" case

Back on the Dyatlov group case. Solter washed six bodies. I thought to single out the three that remained dirty might prove easier. So who wasn't brought to Ivdel morgue before the official discovery of the bodies? These were only my initial thoughts and counterpoints:
Doroshenko* Around the nasal ridge, the nasal tip and the upper lip, there are clotted blood traces. Around the right cheek, the soft tissue is covered with a layer of foamy grey fluid. Grey fluid traces are also visible around the opening of the mouth. But if he wasn't moved, why was he found sprawled like that?
Dyatlov The lips are of bluish purple color and covered in clotted blood. Dyatlov is the only one whose cadaveric spots match the position in which he was found (on the back). All others do not match.
Slobodin There is a trail of caked blood coming from the opening of the nose + the icy bed under the body. This observation and conclusion was mentioned in Akselrod's testimony, but he hasn't seen the rest of the bodies when they were found, so if Akselrod was the only one registering the fact, then the rest just might as well have icy beds that nobody testified about. At least we have one dying spot that looks like hasn't been doctored... unless his clothes were wet. His body could have been in the river.
Zolotaryov soiled himself (signs of defecation from the rectum). They could have washed him somewhat and then put back the soiled clothes, and this is how he got dirty again.

* I consulted Ivan Stoyanov M.D. Expert Forensic Medicine

Dr. Stoyanov told me that if a body is unidentified or the relatives can come right away it goes in a special chambers.
Recently a foreigner died, the family was contacted and made travel arrangements. The bodies was taken out of the freezer. But the flight was canceled (Covid times) so the body went into the freezer again. When they finally got it out for transportation some liquid came out of his nostrils - grey and foamy. So the fact that Doroshenko's right cheek was covered with foamy grey fluid is not conclusive that he couldn't been washed.

I started entering notes from forensic sources pertinent to the Dyatlov group case long time ago when I started the site.
https://dyatlovpass.com/forensic
The reason to start it were symptoms for hypothermia. Some sources say that signs of death from hypothermia are light colored blood (excess oxygen) and the presence of blood clots, since death from hypothermia is relatively slow. In Dyatlov's group, the blood at autopsies is dark. The absence of blood clots is interpreted by some researchers as fast, i.e. criminal.

But according to Blossfeld-Diberg-Raisky, blood can be dark in death caused by hypothermia and blood clots can break up during thawing i.e. the absence of blood clots and the color of the blood cannot be indicators of whether death occurred as a result of hypothermia.

I discussed the problem with M.D. Vasil Nikolchev, Head of the Forensic Department in Kyustendil, Bulgaria.  He made the autopsy of the woman who was killed by a tree that fell on top of her tent on 7/7/2020.


Woman (29) dead, boyfriend walked away with a minor injury and a fright

Dr. Nikolchev agreed that the common perception is for light colored blood to be found in frozen corpses, but the blood can be dark, too. And the blood clots may dissolve during thawing. Then he handed me the following scientific paper and said "We all (the MD) keep looking for answers in books till the last day of our practice."
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Hypothermia.pdf
On p. 10 it says how many autopsies are taken in consideration - 3265. Many parameters are taken into account - age, gender, life style, health, latitude, climate, alcohol, genetics, I can even remember all you are welcome to leaf through t, sorry that it is in Bulgarian but I ma sure you can find a way to translate it if it comes to that. On page 28 there is a table that shows what are the % for bright/scarlet blood - 49%. Right in the middle.

I asked Dr. Nikolchev for his opinion on refreezing the bodies: All kinds of things can happen when a body is thawed - change of color, rapid decomposition and all kinds of fluids can start coming out. He wasn't sure about defecation. Dr. Nikolchev said that in his 29 year practice he had only seen hanged people soil themselves, but not all of them do it. Common knowledge is that people dying from hypothermia have more urine in their bladder. They just do not urinate. There is no explanation about that, they just don't. But it is not a rule. The MD was kind of upset because he saw that I am expecting more certainty in his answers. He said that every illness, every condition, everything concerning the body can develop atypically. The coroner merely records an observation. Certain things are more of a symptom for further exploration e.g. discoloration means poisoning - make a test for certain poison.

Foam coming from the mouth and nose can happen when the heart stops, too. It is not indicative of a certain cause of death.


Me and M.D. Marina Miteva

Dr. Nikolchev's opinion on the three fractures on Zolotaryov's scapula - he totally agrees with M.D. Marina Miteva, who during an autopsy of a man who fell from the 5th floor explained to me, that if you won't open the body from the back you won't see the fractured scapula. They rarely cut bodies from the back, only when they have a probable cause to expect to find something. In the case of the woman that Dr. Nikolchev autopsied - he didn't cut her from the back. If she had a fractured scapula he wouldn't see it in the autopsy. Nowadays they have diagnostic imaging. The body I was observing being autopsied in Ruse had fallen from the 5th floor. A lot of damage was expected so in this case the body goes through a CT (Computed tomography) scan first so the medical examiner knows in advance what to look for. Marina cut the body from the front and the back. More important is that Dr. Nikolchev said that if a tree had caused the rest of the damage on Zolotaryov, the three fractures on the scapula are consistent with this trauma.

In conclusion, it will be greatly appreciated if you can bring something to the table (pun intended).
https://dyatlovpass.com/forensic
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 10:42:06 AM by Teddy »
 

December 07, 2022, 01:47:38 PM
Reply #2
Offline

Manti


It looks like the autopsies were done incorrectly?
Quote

you can’t just warm up a frozen body and proceed with the autopsy.  It has to be defrosted slowly in a refrigeration unit at a steady thirty-eight degrees (F) which can take up to  week.  Go any faster and the outside of the body will start to decompose while the inner organs are still frozen. Important evidence can be lost.
Source: http://www.jameshaymanthrillers.com/from-the-author/defrosting-a-frozen-corpse-and-other-mysterious-oddities/



Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

December 07, 2022, 02:34:16 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Ziljoe


I think autopsies when hypothermia may be the cause of death has been causing problems for years. This is from 2013. I can't pretend I understand everything they are saying but in 1959 , they were still learning, as science is today.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260371558_Postmortem_diagnosis_of_hypothermia


 

December 07, 2022, 04:00:32 PM
Reply #4
Offline

GlennM


Teddy and all,
Thank you for giving this thread serious consideration. It appears that for every indicator of hypothermic freezing, there are exceptions to the rule. What we need is something that can be considered diagnostic indicating a corpse has gone through a freeze, thaw freeze thaw cycle. Water expands when frozen. This can rupture cell membranes. When thawed, the liquid material diffuses . Re freezing and thawing a second time is certainly going to be reflected in the texture of tissues.

In oranges, if they get frozen, they are only good,for juicing afterwards.



 

December 08, 2022, 06:18:07 AM
Reply #5
Offline

Manti


There are a lot of studies I found which confirm this, re-freezing can be diagnosed by just looking at MRI or CT scan results, among others. I don't think they had that technology back then, though.

So, we will never know. And it's also possible that some parts of their bodies, that were exposed to sunshine during the day for example, thawed and refroze even without (or before) the bodies having been taken to the morgue and back.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 
The following users thanked this post: Teddy

December 08, 2022, 06:40:35 AM
Reply #6
Offline

marieuk


Thanks Teddy.  Interesting that Dr Nikolchev has only come across people soiling themselves after being hanged.  Apparently, 27% of hyoid bone fractures are caused by hanging.  Could there be a link there? 
 

December 08, 2022, 06:59:08 AM
Reply #7
Online

Teddy

Administrator
Zolotaryov's hyoid bone is intact. (p. 350 https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351)
 

December 08, 2022, 07:07:43 AM
Reply #8
Offline

marieuk


Sorry I  meant with Lyuda.
 

December 08, 2022, 07:40:28 AM
Reply #9
Online

Teddy

Administrator
You are right, Dubinina has some abnormal mobility of the hyoid bone, broken is crossed out.
p. 356 https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357
and what connection do you find again?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 07:45:22 AM by Teddy »
 

December 08, 2022, 04:33:10 PM
Reply #10
Offline

marieuk


Thank you Teddy.   I honestly don't know what the connection could be, but just questioning Zolotaryov with the soiling that can be a result of hanging, Lyuda with the damage to the hyoid bone, which is most often caused by strangulation/hanging and also Kolevatov with the deformed neck.  Is it a coincidence or could there be a link do you  think? 
 

December 09, 2022, 03:10:25 AM
Reply #11
Online

Teddy

Administrator
I am not an expert to venture an opinion, but I updated the table: https://dyatlovpass.com/forensic
Note that although Kolevatov had "deformed neck" his hyoid bone was intact. Again, I am not an expert, but deformed neck could mean anything even a broken neck, but they should have mentioned this if they checked the hyoid bone.
The deformed neck is mentioned in the external examination while the hyoid bone is in the internal.

I learn things in the process:
The hyoid consists of a body, a pair of larger horns, called the greater cornua, and a pair of smaller horns, called the lesser cornua. The hyoid is the U-shaped bone of the neck that is fractured in one-third of all homicides by strangulation. On this basis, postmortem detection of hyoid fracture is relevant to the diagnosis of strangulation.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 03:45:01 AM by Teddy »
 
The following users thanked this post: marieuk, Manti

December 09, 2022, 10:08:45 AM
Reply #12
Online

Teddy

Administrator
The behavior that led to the bizarre circumstances for the Dyatlov group death must have been a response to something extraordinary.
My theory is that the survivors of the blow that killed Dubinina, Zolotaryov and  Thibeaux-Brignolle died form exertional fatigue and stress induced hypothermia. There is something called "hiker's hypothermia":
Exertional fatigue and cold exposure: mechanisms of hiker's hypothermia - Andrew J Young, John W Castellani
Stress-induced hyperthermia and hypothermia - Takakazu Oka

Updated: https://dyatlovpass.com/forensic
 

December 09, 2022, 02:46:48 PM
Reply #13
Online

Teddy

Administrator
According to Alexey Rakitin medical examiner Vozrozhdenniy mistook frostbite erythema for livor mortis. In his book the author is citing the forensic bible at the time "Forensic medicine" 1953 by M.I. Rayski where there is no mention of frostbite erythema but on p.233 it says that livor mortis in frozen cadavers change color when carried in a warm room from purple to light red, and then darken again. Same thing happens with frostbite erythema when defrosting a corpse. So the author of the article says "it is not surprising that the medical examiner Vozrozhdenniy thought that he sees livor mortis spots".
------------------------------------------
"Смерть, идущая по следу" ©А.И.Ракитин: Возрождённый принял за трупные пятна совсем иной природы, т.н. морозную эритему (расширение подкожных капилляров на холоде, наблюдаемое обычно на открытых частях тела). В 50-х гг. прошлого века морозную (холодовую) эритему судебная медицина ещё не выделяла в самостоятельный признак смерти от переохлаждения. В учебнике 1953 г. М. И. Райского «Судебная медицина» о морозной эритеме нет ни слова. Зато там есть указание (на стр. 233) на изменение цвета трупных пятен промёрзших трупов. Согласно Райскому, при внесении тела в тёплое помещение они светлеют, меняя цвет от багрового к светло-красному, а затем опять темнеют. Морозная эритема также имеет светло-красный цвет, который будет меняться при разморозке трупа, а потому неудивительно, что судмедэксперт Возрождённый посчитал, что видит трупные пятна.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 03:29:08 PM by Teddy »
 

December 09, 2022, 07:55:25 PM
Reply #14
Offline

GlennM


Teddy, your contention is that when the survivors extracted themselves from the fallen tree, they used themselves up trying to free their trapped companions. I think that is clearly understandable.I can understand 4 of them going to the ravine to make a snow cave. I do not know why the other three surviving hikers started toward where the tent was found on 1079. To you think they wanted to get to the labaz? Why? They had supplies at their tent, although it was under the tree. They would do better by using branches and levering the fallen tree off their tent to get to their food. They probably did just that to free their injured comrades. For Igor to leave the immediate area and proceed uphill in poor conditions is difficult to understand. It seems that if they were going for help, it was not in that direction.

Yet, the whole report of bodies brought to the morgue,thawed,,washed, dressed and redressed only to be posed in the wild,seems unlikely. If the official autopsy found changes in the corpses consistent with defrosting, that would be a big clue. We have nothing. Do you think the brown skin color mentioned on the bodies has any significance regarding a re-freezing of the remains?
 

December 09, 2022, 10:20:20 PM
Reply #15
Online

Teddy

Administrator
I am not going to argue with you GlennM. This is not how it works. Read the quote of the forum:
"Know that your work speaks only to those on the same wavelength as you."  – Jean Cocteau

I can turn blue in the face from arguing and it won't make a iota of difference.

And this topic is not about the book.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 10:26:15 PM by Teddy »
 

December 10, 2022, 11:47:09 AM
Reply #16
Offline

GlennM


Hello Teddy,  sorry if I offended. Accept apology. Yes, endless arguements can arise over details, motives and decisions in the quest for new insight.  You do better. You investigate. We only speculate. The question of whether a body frozen, thawed and re frozen has led us to the conclusion that it could not be determined in 1959. Today, it would require advanced technology and would still be open to dispute. Thank you for your clarification and your research with the medical examiner.

 
The following users thanked this post: Teddy

December 10, 2022, 12:08:24 PM
Reply #17
Offline

Почемучка


I learn things in the process:
The hyoid consists of a body, a pair of larger horns, called the greater cornua, and a pair of smaller horns, called the lesser cornua.
Вся беда в том. что судебно-медицинские аспекты разбираются не профессионалами.

А профессионалы с большим опытом знают, что основное тело кости сочленяется с рожками - хрящиком. Который закостеневает к определенному возрасту человека. К 25 годам  его жизни. Как правило. Подвижность рожков кости - и объясняется этим несерьезным хрящиком. Людмиле было 21 год.

Судмедэксперты приводили случаи когда у атлетически сложенного молодого человека 25 лет - эти хрящики были еще слабенькими. Таким образом все очень примерно.

The whole trouble is. that forensic aspects are not dealt with by professionals.

And professionals with extensive experience know that the main body of the bone articulates with horns - cartilage. Which ossifies by a certain age of a person. By the age of 25. Usually. The mobility of the horns of the bone is explained by this frivolous cartilage. Lyudmila was 21 years old.

Forensic experts cited cases when an athletic young man was 25 years old - these cartilages were still weak. So everything is very approximate.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 12:14:13 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
The following users thanked this post: Teddy, marieuk

December 10, 2022, 07:07:34 PM
Reply #18
Offline

GlennM


There is cartilage and a region of the long bone called  the growth plate. If the growth plate gets damaged by a fracture in childhood,,that person may wind up using a lift in the shoe of the shorter leg. This really does not bear on the medical examiner's findings for the DP9. What we seek is evidence the bodies were moved prior to discovery. One piece of evidence would be to know if they were cleaned up and returned. Re dressing them would necessitate thawing.
 

December 10, 2022, 11:28:14 PM
Reply #19
Offline

Почемучка


What we seek is evidence the bodies were moved prior to discovery. One piece of evidence would be to know if they were cleaned up and returned. Re dressing them would necessitate thawing.
А вот тут очень интересный момент. Судебно-медицинский эксперт обязан по своей должности описывать и все виды загрязнений, которые он видит на одежде тех, кого ему дали в виде трупов на исследование. Никто из других фигурантов следствия не имеет ни регламента и ни возможности тщательно рассматривать все слои одежды на трупах. Возрожденный Б.А. указывает количество пуговиц, резинки, разрывы одежды, следы обгорания. Но при таких травмах и кровепотере  - ни разу не указывает на пятна крови на одежде. С чего бы это?

And here is a very interesting moment. The forensic medical expert is obliged by his position to describe all types of pollution that he sees on the clothes of those who were given to him in the form of corpses for research. None of the other defendants in the investigation has neither the regulations nor the opportunity to carefully examine all the layers of clothing on the corpses. Resurrected B.A. indicates the number of buttons, elastic bands, tears in clothing, traces of burning. But with such injuries and blood loss, it never indicates blood stains on clothes. Why did it happen?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 11:36:44 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

December 11, 2022, 02:06:12 AM
Reply #20
Online

Teddy

Administrator
Возрожденный Б.А. указывает количество пуговиц, резинки, разрывы одежды, следы обгорания. Но при таких травмах и кровепотере  - ни разу не указывает на пятна крови на одежде. С чего бы это?

Vozrozhdenniy indicates the number of buttons, elastic bands, tears in clothing, traces of burning. But with such injuries and blood loss, it never indicates blood stains on clothes. Why did it happen?

https://rg.ru/2013/04/16/reg-urfo/pereval.html
Анатолий Гущин:
Казалось бы, не так много фактов сообщила Чуркина в своем рассказе, а на самом деле говорят они о многом. Главное - кто и зачем транспортировал трупы? А что транспортировали, доказывается и другими материалами экспертиз. В уголовном деле не раз указывается, что на телах (почти на всех) были травмы, полученные как при жизни, так и после смерти. Как правило, это царапины. Как они могли появиться на мертвецах? Любопытен и другой момент: царапины были, а крови - нет! Тот же судмедэксперт Возрожденный при вскрытии трупов отмечал, что у некоторых имеются следы запекшейся крови в носу. Но почему только в носу? По мнению Чуркиной, трупы были обмыты, вот почему на них не было следов крови, хотя царапин на теле хватало. Правда, царапины эти уже имели вид корост, то есть начинали заживать. А если так, то есть основание полагать, что люди погибли не сразу, а спустя какое-то время после ЧП. Однако пищу при этом принимали одновременно - за 6-8 часов до смерти. При этом и погибнуть одновременно не могли, так как лишь трое имели серьезные травмы, остальные были целы, а раз так, то могли жить дольше.

Anatoly Gushchin:
It would seem that not many facts were reported by Churkina in her story, but in fact they say a lot. The main thing is who transported the corpses and why? And what was transported is also proved by other materials of examinations. In the criminal case, it is repeatedly indicated that the bodies (almost all of them) had injuries received both during life and after death. As a rule, these are scratches. How could they appear on the dead? Another point is also curious: there were scratches, but no blood! The same forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy, during the autopsy, noted that some had traces of gore in the nose. But why only in the nose? According to Churkina, the corpses were washed, which is why there were no traces of blood on them, although there were enough scratches on the body. True, these scratches already looked like scabs, that is, they began to heal. And if so, then there is reason to believe that people did not die immediately, but some time after the emergency. However, food was taken at the same time - 6-8 hours before death. At the same time, they could not die at the same time, since only three had serious injuries, the rest were intact, and if so, they could live longer.
 

December 11, 2022, 06:23:29 AM
Reply #21
Offline

Manti


Teddy, your contention is that when the survivors extracted themselves from the fallen tree, they used themselves up trying to free their trapped companions. I think that is clearly understandable.I can understand 4 of them going to the ravine to make a snow cave. I do not know why the other three surviving hikers started toward where the tent was found on 1079. To you think they wanted to get to the labaz? Why? They had supplies at their tent, although it was under the tree. They would do better by using branches and levering the fallen tree off their tent to get to their food. They probably did just that to free their injured comrades. For Igor to leave the immediate area and proceed uphill in poor conditions is difficult to understand. It seems that if they were going for help, it was not in that direction.
Hi GlennM,

It's been a while since I've read Teddy & Igor Pavlov's book but there is an explanation offered there about why Rustem, Zina, and Igor went uphill after the incident. I don't know if I should give spoilers. I remember feeling not entirely convinced at the time, and thinking that I can really only fathom the situation if I visit the Pass and look at the conditions there myself. In winter. Which I still haven't done..

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

December 11, 2022, 06:31:34 AM
Reply #22
Online

Teddy

Administrator
Uphill is the only direction to look for help. They have seen the airplanes in the sky during their trek.
 

December 11, 2022, 07:30:30 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Manti


Well, I was thinking that it depends on the amount of tree cover. How many evergreen trees there are as opposed to ones that shed all leaves in the winter. Are there any treeless "meadows"?


But even more importantly, maybe going uphill was the only way they could go. I have read that the snow was getting too deep in other directions. But then again, if the tent is in the forest, their skis are there so they could have put them on. But they didn't.. This is why I felt I'd really need to go there and see for myself. Because I have this feeling that it was possible to survive, for some of them, who were not crushed. But maybe I am wrong. Topic for another thread

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

December 11, 2022, 07:51:08 AM
Reply #24
Offline

Почемучка


Возрожденный Б.А. указывает количество пуговиц, резинки, разрывы одежды, следы обгорания. Но при таких травмах и кровепотере  - ни разу не указывает на пятна крови на одежде. С чего бы это?

Vozrozhdenniy indicates the number of buttons, elastic bands, tears in clothing, traces of burning. But with such injuries and blood loss, it never indicates blood stains on clothes. Why did it happen?

https://rg.ru/2013/04/16/reg-urfo/pereval.html
Анатолий Гущин:
Казалось бы, не так много фактов сообщила Чуркина в своем рассказе, а на самом деле говорят они о многом. Главное - кто и зачем транспортировал трупы? А что транспортировали, доказывается и другими материалами экспертиз. В уголовном деле не раз указывается, что на телах (почти на всех) были травмы, полученные как при жизни, так и после смерти. Как правило, это царапины. Как они могли появиться на мертвецах? Любопытен и другой момент: царапины были, а крови - нет! Тот же судмедэксперт Возрожденный при вскрытии трупов отмечал, что у некоторых имеются следы запекшейся крови в носу. Но почему только в носу? По мнению Чуркиной, трупы были обмыты, вот почему на них не было следов крови, хотя царапин на теле хватало. Правда, царапины эти уже имели вид корост, то есть начинали заживать. А если так, то есть основание полагать, что люди погибли не сразу, а спустя какое-то время после ЧП. Однако пищу при этом принимали одновременно - за 6-8 часов до смерти. При этом и погибнуть одновременно не могли, так как лишь трое имели серьезные травмы, остальные были целы, а раз так, то могли жить дольше.

Anatoly Gushchin:
It would seem that not many facts were reported by Churkina in her story, but in fact they say a lot. The main thing is who transported the corpses and why? And what was transported is also proved by other materials of examinations. In the criminal case, it is repeatedly indicated that the bodies (almost all of them) had injuries received both during life and after death. As a rule, these are scratches. How could they appear on the dead? Another point is also curious: there were scratches, but no blood! The same forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy, during the autopsy, noted that some had traces of gore in the nose. But why only in the nose? According to Churkina, the corpses were washed, which is why there were no traces of blood on them, although there were enough scratches on the body. True, these scratches already looked like scabs, that is, they began to heal. And if so, then there is reason to believe that people did not die immediately, but some time after the emergency. However, food was taken at the same time - 6-8 hours before death. At the same time, they could not die at the same time, since only three had serious injuries, the rest were intact, and if so, they could live longer.

Теодора, имеет смысл сравнить - что писал А.Гущин при жизни Чуркиной и что стал страшным образом сочинять после её смерти.
При жизни Чуркиной, когда Генриетта Елисеевна читала его писанину, потому что он обязан знакомить с тем как он перенес интервью на бумагу:
А. ГУЩИН О ЧЕМ МОЛЧИТ ОТОРТЕН «Уральский рабочий» 3.03.1999 г.


Вот статья на которую ссылается А.Гущин, повествуя что он с её содержанием знакомил Чуркину.
Анатолий ГУЩИН "ЦЕНА ГОСТАЙНЫ - ДЕВЯТЬ ЖИЗНЕЙ?" глава "Страшная, неодолимая сила"
Екатеринбург, 1999 г. - 143 стр., 3 тыс. экз.



Вот что он уже пишет в 2006 году
https://www.svoboda.org/a/130889.html


А это повествование 2013 года
https://rg.ru/2013/04/16/reg-urfo/pereval.html


Theodora, it makes sense to compare - what A. Gushchin wrote during the life of Churkina and what he began to compose in a terrible way after her death.
During the life of Churkina, when Henrietta Eliseevna read his writings, because he is obliged to acquaint him with how he transferred the interview to paper:
A. GUSCHIN WHAT OTORTEN IS SILENT ABOUT "Ural worker" 03.03.1999

Here is an article to which A. Gushchin refers, telling that he introduced Churkina to its content.
Anatoly GUSHCHIN "PRICE OF GOSTAINE - NINE LIVES?" chapter "Terrible, irresistible force"
Yekaterinburg, 1999 - 143 pages, 3 thousand copies.

Here is what he already writes in 2006

This story is from 2013

As they say - find at least 10 differences...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
И самое главное, на что я хотела обратить внимание этим постом.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1185.msg19115#msg19115

Я говорила о загрязнении одежды, в которой были найдены тела. Загрязнения должны быть и от крови/ран, от смолы хвойников.
Но этого - нет ни в одном из Актов СМИ.

And most importantly, what I wanted to draw attention to with this post.

I spoke about the contamination of the clothes in which the bodies were found. Pollution should also be from blood / wounds, from the resin of conifers.
But this is not in any of the Media Acts.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 07:59:51 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...