Theories Discussion > Murdered
A problem with homicide theories
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 02, 2022, 03:42:35 PM ---
For me, the self-proclaimed advocate of the TOKEB theory (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - BottledBrunette), it is clear that the explanation of the DPI by a simple criminal attack did not please the Soviet power (Krushchev) in 1959, and does not please the present Russian power (Putin) either.
(Note first that TOKEB obviously disagrees with most of the arguments, despite their numerous and detailed nature, supported by Igor B., which can be read on the 112 pages of http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
En 1959 :
Andrey Kirilenko (1st Secretary of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU) summoned Korotaev(1936-2012) to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained:
"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."
Moreover, I consider that Korotaev and Ivanov did not lie when they described the surprise attack of trained and determined killers as an overwhelming force which the hikers were unable to overcome."
Similarly in the years 2018 -2020 Eduard Tumanov "under the watchful eye of the Kremlin custodians of the Dyatlov Group's death", was warned by Putin's collaborators to stop talking in public or on television about anything that might suggest criminal explanations of the DPI.
Obviously, like Korotaev and Ivanov before him, Eduard Tumanov preferred to avoid serious trouble in his life and chose to publicly state that he had changed his view point.
About Tumanov's forced change, you can read Aleks Kandr's argument on his website (but it is long !) :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3
and a discussion on the same subject on taina.li :
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0
Personally, I approve of Tumanov not wanting to ruin his life by telling the truth about the 9 murders, which is an old case that is relatively unimportant compared to recent events like the war in Ukraine !
As Per Inge Oestmoen skilfully expresses it "bodies do not lie", and what interests me now are the "WHO" and "WHY" questions.
In France, in Russia and in every country in the world, government censorship exists. So how do you explain that on taina.li, the discusion launched by Aleks Kandr = Aleks K is blocked ?
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
Blocked topic
--- End quote ---
Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:
I admire your reasoning, which is basically correct. The one detail where I must say that I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.
The people who orchestrated the DPI knew very well that the nine students were resourceful people, loyal Soviet citizens. Therefore, they could not simply shoot them and put them in closed coffins or make them "disappear." That would have been too obvious.
However, the nine must have observed something there in the Urals which they were not supposed to know about. They observed something that would represent a threat to state security if one of these nine should ever tell a spouse, friend or child. For that reason, they all had to be eliminated
The solution was to force the students out from the tent, cut it so that the students could not find shelter if they returned, and chase them out in the cold improperly dressed in order to let the winter do the job. As I have described before, what foiled the plot was that there was a sudden rise in temperature on the night of February 2, 1959. The nearest weather stations recorded that, so this is evident.
Now, if the sudden rise in temperature had not taken place this killing mission would have been perfect. There was nothing primitive in this method. To force improperly dressed humans out in the cold is a brilliant method of silencing them. As it were, the students did not die as planned, and so they had to be hunted down and dispatched. Hence the injuries, many of which I recognize as typical of killing by trained close combat experts. The killers were no common criminals, that is for sure. They were special forces operators who were very aware that they must avoid bayonet cuts or bullet wounds, but it is certain that they were armed.
Further indications of the intelligent planning behind this mission was what happened to the Mansi. They were said to be under suspicion, some of them were interrogated. Then, a seamstress said that the tent was cut from the inside - with no scientific documentation and no explanation why that would contradict the fact that is was homicide. What happened? The Mansi were in the area, and must necessarily have learned about the death of the nine and possibly also observed the arrival of the killers. By interrogating some of them and then releasing them in the way it happened, the Mansi were given a stern warning that if they ever told anyone what they had observed a grim fate would befall them.
I can hardly imagine a more cruelly intelligent way of first performing a preventive killing, and then effectively silencing the witnesses who surely understood what had happened.
As if the above were not enough, when the investigators in 1959 were forced to close the case with a false conclusion it should be very clear that the government knew very well what this was all about. Now we have seen that the same happens even today. False conclusions about a non-existent avalanche are being dictated, and people who point to the physical impossibility of an avalanche and to the injuries of the nine victims being only consistent with human attack with lethal intent are being forced into retracting their views.
The nine unfortunate students were at the wrong place at the wrong time. That became their undoing. The wording "overwhelming force" is as close as Ivanov could express it without saying it openly.
Their killers were no common criminals, they were intelligent, highly trained and skillful professionals.
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Charles on June 03, 2022, 12:44:12 PM ---* Ognev's outcasts met Dyatlov's tourists ... adult men forced to sleep in a dormitory meeting adult men sleeping in a tent just for the fun and with two girls they were unable to copulate with (just playing couples)... it is lighting a match near a gas tank. If somebody can't understand the explosive potential of such a configuration, then it is useless to explore any other hypothesis. First purge all the possibilities of inside violence, then go to the snowman... "Inside" meaning either the tent or the tent + district 41 given the remoteness of the scene.
--- End quote ---
Neither in the diaries nor in any other way do we have any indication that the Dyatlov Pass Incident had anything with internal strife to do.
Everything tells us that the nine were killed in a well planned, skillful killing mission. The fact that some people today do not want to accept that, is in fact testimony to the intelligence behind the cruel mission. If the temperature had been some degrees lower, the nine would have frozen to death as was planned and the plot would have been perfect. Even the most select and formidable secret police force known to Man cannot control the natural forces.
Charles:
nothing here
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 04, 2022, 01:34:37 PM --- Reply #100
......................
I must say that I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.
......................
--- End quote ---
You may want to read my 5 recent posts in which I discuss the disadvantages of a firearm compared to a simple birch wood blunt object.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17761#msg17761
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=78.msg17757#msg17757
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=78.msg17747#msg17747
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17746#msg17746
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1113.msg17737#msg17737
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°In my still under construction TOKEB theory, the "O" is used in gratitude to Oestmoen.
Indeed, we both agree with Askenadzi :
I...came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. ...... I don't know who or why they were murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
But afterwards our theories are different. The "K" of TOKEB is in honour of Aleks Kandr who considers that the DPI is a humiliating defeat of the KGB which revealed itself unable to protect the 9 hikers.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° ••• Apart from possible illegal activities such as criminal gold trafficking, the existence of "something that would represent a threat to state security" is a frankly extravagant assumption.
••• For 60 years the region has been particularly watched and scoured. And also, for 60 years, we can have an idea of the broad outlines of what might have been the secret Soviet research or realization in 1959 (nuclear bombs, submarines, aeroplanes, missiles, combat gas...etc).
There is no clue to suggest the presence of "something which they were not supposed to know about".
••• On the contrary, the region was far from being deserted but was often frequented by people who needed protection or control: foresters, loggers, geologists, prospectors, hunters, Russian tourists, illegal gold traffickers, Ivdellag escapees..........etc.
And all these people benefited from aerial surveillance from the Ivdellag airbase, which was well equipped (since it was able to send numerous intervention teams to the ground at short notice).
••• Even assuming that in 8 days, for some weird and unknown reason, the hikers had gone from being good citizens to individuals to be eliminated, neither the KGB nor any other official service would have failed to interrogate them methodically for days, and rather for weeks and months.
••• And in this case, investigations would have been carried out among the families and relatives of the hikers, which does not appear in the testimonies available to us.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°° Citation :
the nine were killed in a well planned, skillful killing mission.
The killing mission (and the typical disfiguration of the 2 corpses) was planned to be accomplished (more or less quickly) regardless of the weather conditions on the slope of Kholat Syakhl on 1 February.
Just as well :
Temperature = 0° C and Wind : 3 m/s - or sudden rise in temperature. (Example: Igor B. , wolverine....).
Temperature = -50° C and Wind : 35 m/s. (Example: Lupos, Catabatic Wind - Acute Stress Reaction - Cold Air Drops...).
The temperature had no importance on the final result which was: not to leave any survivor.
Citation :
The Mansi were in the area,.......... possibly also observed the arrival of the killers.
It is unlikely that the Mansis could have seen the arrival of the killers by extraordinary chance.
Apart from participating in the search for the corpses, the Mansis played no direct role in the DPI. cf. Vladimir Sungorkin
from Komsomolskaya Pravda.
Citation :
I can hardly imagine a more cruelly intelligent...
The cold killing procedure by cold is well known and has been used for centuries in the Siberian regions.
This killing method, which is inexpensive, is not particularly cruel compared to other killings tortures. After the onset of painful physiological reactions, the victim gradually loses consciousness.
Sometimes the victim even feels a paradoxical sensation of warmth.
Citation :
...I think you are mistaken is when you think that the attackers did not have firearms.
Vietnamka
But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot ?
the simplest answer is - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.
1) - No staging
The attackers wanted to show that they had killed 9 exemplary Soviet citizens who were pampered by the Khrushchev government.
Therefore the attackers did not stage anything, thinking that the investigators would normally and logically declare that the 9 hikers had been murdered.
But afterwards the Kremlin fooled those who orchestrated these assassinations by imposing idiotic official explanations i.e. :
"overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome" in 1959,
later "Avalanche" in 2019.
2) - No firearm
The exit from the tent without the axes and in the conditions of the attack: darkness, wind, without tearing off the tent, cannot be explained by the mere verbal threat of a firearm. (in 1959: no powerful and transportable light was easily available).
• It was not sufficient to shoot in the air.
• It was not sufficient to explode large firecrackers: boom, boom....
• It would have required an impressive visible warning gunshot. (i.e. a hole in the tent fabric or even in the leg of a hiker).
Another more promising approach to research was suggested by Mishka: the use of cunning, treachery and betrayal, like certain pirates at sea who disguise themselves as shipwrecked men in distress in order to gain control of a large ship.
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 11, 2022, 01:43:16 PM ---
Vietnamka
But the main question of why the victims were not simply shot ?
the simplest answer is - attackers didnt have [fire]weapons.
1) - No staging
The attackers wanted to show that they had killed 9 exemplary Soviet citizens who were pampered by the Khrushchev government.
Therefore the attackers did not stage anything, thinking that the investigators would normally and logically declare that the 9 hikers had been murdered.
--- End quote ---
Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:
I have some more comments:
- When I stated that the method of killing by cold is "cruelly intelligent" I did not mean the method of killing itself, but the careful calculation that evidently is behind when the killers force improperly dressed people out in the winter.
- There was a sudden, unexpected rise in temperature during the night of February 2, 1959. If that rise of temperature had not occurred, the killers would not have needed to use any additional physical force to hasten the demise of the nine. If the nine had frozen to death as planned, nobody would be able to know for sure that it was murder.
- Since the Mansi lived in the area, they would more than likely have observed the bodies during the long period between the murder and the discovery of the bodies. Although we cannot say it with certainty, it is not unlikely that the Mansi also were aware of the presence of the killing squad. That is the only possible explanation why the Mansi were first interrogated, then released: It was a stern warning which needed no explicit wording. The Mansi understood, and have kept quiet to this day.
- The victims were not shot, simply because then it would be impossible to pretend that the Dyatlov Pass Incident was an accident. The people who planned the killing knew that the nine students were Soviet citizens whose loyalty was not in doubt and none of them had any record of dissidence or disagreement with the Soviet regime. To shoot them, or make them "disappear" would not be tolerated. However, if the students had witnessed some secret activity in the Urals they were still a potential threat to state security. Therefore they had to be killed, and it had to be done in such a way as to make it seem to be an accident. That is why they were not shot. Secret police forces generally try to kill by creating "natural deaths," "accidents" or "suicides." To just shoot them, would create political unrest and be a telltale sign that something really was going on in the Urals. During the Cold War, state secrets was something only a select few were supposed to know about.
- Only a sudden rise in temperature prevented the operation from being a complete success. The forceful killing of the students was necessary because the killers needed to fulfill their mission. The killers took great pains to make it look like an accident.
- Later, the Soviet and subsequent Russian authorities also took great pains to force or fool investigators and the public into believing that it was an accident. it was obvious back in 1959 that it could not have been an avalanche, and recently it has been scientifically and conclusively proven that there was no avalanche. The Soviet and Russian authorities naturally knew this all the time. Still, they maintained that the death of the nine was an accident, and they have maintained that it was caused by an avalanche even if they knew very well that it was impossible. There would be no need for such a great cover up unless the Soviet government themselves orchestrated and ordered the killing.
- As for the disadvantage of a firearm: It is obvious. If one wants to make a killing look like an accident, one must of course not use firearms.
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