Theories Discussion > General Discussion

Which commonly known "facts" are not factual?

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Ziljoe:

--- Quote from: Charles on June 03, 2022, 01:29:25 PM ---Dear Ziljoe,


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 01, 2022, 09:44:12 AM ---But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group.
--- End quote ---

Of course some are natural, but other are posed, and most of the photos are posed. My point is only to underline that it is not possible to rely on the photos to assess the moral of the group (at least we have to distinguish posed and not posed photos). But seemingly, you would like to do so... forgetting the absolute cruelty and brutality of the outcome. You don't deny this outcome, do you ? Because the end was a hell of fear, suffering, agony, despair and death... just to remind you.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 01, 2022, 09:44:12 AM --- The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.
--- End quote ---

So, the diaries are to be sent to the trash bin ? All right... They were walking to a horrible death, writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel, and so on, but all this material would be meaningless ? Why not ? Can we even say they died in the end or is it too much to state ?

Greetings

Charles


--- End quote ---


Hi Charles

Within the posed photos, there seems to be smiles that are not always easy to fake if someone is not happy. I don't see signs of fear or anxiety. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to communicate
Cruelty and brutality is by the assumption that others caused the harm intentionally.
I am not in agreement  at the moment that this was the case.

As for the diaries , I haven't seen the word sex used? When they talk about love it may refer to marriage, dating, kissing and there hopes for the future happiness. I don't think this is an odd topic , having shared my life with groups of females and males, involving camping also ,amoungst other things, all simallar topics have come to discussion along with God , bigfoot , life and death for example , also people have fallouts, affection's for others and harbour a secret lust for others. Happens every day , we are human and their diary , to me , doesn't seem to imply anything too radical. I appreciate your in-depth look at the diaries though. I'm not sure of the emotive use of these words. (writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel,). Because it misses out the positives. It's like lumping all the broken bones together across the 9.

It is difficult to be neutral if  you have a preconceived idea of  what occurred to the dyatlov group. It's like making an assumption and trying to make the evidence fit.( That's not directed at you Charles).

Im not sure if you are implying they fought each other or it was outsiders? What your links to the diaries and outsiders is.

Charles:
Hello Ziljoe,

Sorry, I missed your post, please forgive my late answer.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 03, 2022, 04:14:26 PM --- I'm not sure of the emotive use of these words. (writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel,). Because it misses out the positives.
--- End quote ---

In the hypothesis of an internal strife leading to the fatal outcome, any small trace of tension can have a meaning. When digging in the direction of internal strife, I collected all these traces and tried to understand how the could lead to the outcome. The positive is probably not very meaningful in the perspective of a collapse of the group. If the cause was not internal, then all these issues are just to be less strongly underlined, they just mean the group was not so united, not so strong.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 03, 2022, 04:14:26 PM --- It is difficult to be neutral if  you have a preconceived idea of  what occurred to the dyatlov group. It's like making an assumption and trying to make the evidence fit.( That's not directed at you Charles).
--- End quote ---

Of course but when exploring an hypothesis, it is legitimate to gather all relevant material.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 03, 2022, 04:14:26 PM ---Im not sure if you are implying they fought each other or it was outsiders? What your links to the diaries and outsiders is.
--- End quote ---

At first I thought it was possible they could have fought each other, now I think another hypothesis is more probable. In that hypothesis, the tourists were not perfectly innocent, they brought something which triggered a reaction and the outcome we know.

I explore now the possibility that they were ambushed by a small party of 5 loggers, who came from District 41, passed them by during the night at Northern 2, and rushed to the pass where to set up an ambush. Their murderers were beyond the tourists, and they were riding reindeers, they killed one reindeer of exhaustion. One of the loggers had to give up, the other four turned on the right, on Jan 30, crossed the Auspiya, and climbed to the pass, never leaving the forest, following the crest and turning around the eastern peak of the Pass. They are the ones who built the den, climbed in the cedar and lit the fire. The tourists were supposed to cross the pass and as reward ski down the slope right to the den. When at dawn on Feb. 2 they discovered the tent high on the slope and on their right, they had to send two of them, pretending to be hunters, waving hands as salute, to the two tourists who were already outside, then suddenly threatened the tourists and pushed them at gunpoint to the cedar. The had them seated by the fire and took them one by one to the den for the killing. Then three of the tourists tried to escape, two were at their limits and just agonized on the slope, Slobodin was finished off. Krivonishenko and Doroshenko were the last to die. The loggers avoided to use their guns and had to push their captives to the forest because the region was not at all a desert, it was full of Mansi people always passing, for hunting, for herding reindeers. When Mansi gave their testimonies, some said : "we were hunting and we did not hear any human voices"... When the rescuers took a plane to search for the tourists, they could only see track on the rivers, not in the forest. And one of the witnesses said that Mansi skis do not leave tracks (because they are much wider than Russian skis).  In the end, there was a little staging, not a lot, in order to fool the police. And they went back to District 41.

At first, I was and and am still convinced that the statement "There is slogan for ​​our campaign, "In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place. Here the trail takes us to the shores of the river. We lose track. In the future, the trail follows the left bank of Auspii river, but the team of deer crossed the river and we are going through the woods." was some kind of poetic statement but very true about their fate. At first I thought the signs they could not read were mainly about internal strife, but now I think these signs they could not read were those signs in the snow... they misinterpreted. For example "Deer trail turns into а trodden path, and then ends."... could mean either a single deer track joined a trodden path... or the path was trodden by a group... And when they wrote: "Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself..." it is absolutely mesmerizing... they stepped on the carcass of a dead reindeer and the "hunter" just went on his way straight to the mountains... I think they never directly saw the "hunter", they just assumed it was a lone Mansi, and couldn't really read the tracks...

I think there was group at District 41, the ones who were perfectly fluent in Mansi, who were on a strange process of enjoying freedom from the very special conditions offered by these extreme limits of civilization. These loggers hunted with Mansi (not with the older but the younger Mansi), they smuggled sable and gold, they had a kind of kingdom of their own in this thin layer of life beyond civilization. I think Kurikov knew the truth and try to express it in his own way when telling his story of the Five Ostyaks... "Kurikov said that near the holy mountain, where this mountain is located, he didn't say, there live five Ostyaks. They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people. They never come to Ivdel. And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they wanted to ascend the holy mountain or because they thought that hikers could kill their deer and moose, which they feed on." I think he was speaking about five loggers, who were not Russians (Soviets) anymore, and not Mansi despite of being perfectly fluent in Mansi and completely familiar with Mansi lifestyle. Kurikov gave in Mansi mythological tools a model of what happened (it was a myth just the same way Plato designed myths as theoretical models). And Kurikov was not very sure about the motive "because ... or because...", but superbly precise about the impossibility to give a definition of them either as Mansi or as Russians: "They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people"... In the end, the event is of the kind tourists killed by locals, the locals just not being the Mansi, but having integrated all the Mansi lifestyle and taiga culture (exact same profile as Egor Ivanovich Chagin but younger and with some anger in their hearts).

I wrote a draft of 28 pages developing this hypothesis, I would be happy to share it with you if I could produce a readable text in the end...

Greetings

Charles

Ziljoe:
Hi Charles,

I look forward to you finishing your hypothesis.

If it were outsiders , I would expect they had a gun to control the group. One of my   problems with  outsiders is the camera films being left . No one would know what was on them , so I would have expected them to be destroyed.

As for the signs.I always thought this was referring to the Mansi signs on the trees?

"In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place.


Many thanks

Ziljoe
 

Charles:

--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM ---If it were outsiders , I would expect they had a gun to control the group.
--- End quote ---

Yes I agree.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM ---One of my   problems with  outsiders is the camera films being left . No one would know what was on them , so I would have expected them to be destroyed.
--- End quote ---

Yes, you are right. So the locals were waiting for dawn and expecting to see the tourists skiing down from the pass right into their ambush but in the very last hours of the night they saw torches upside on the slope and they understood that the tourist were already on their side of the ridge. In the tent they did not sleep well because of the stove not in use and the cold, two of the tourists were already  outside the tent with torches and had a pee. Inside, Slobodin was awake and getting ready to exit, the others were not sleeping. That was the kind of night when you are impatient to begin the day, to eat, drink hot coffee, to move, go on... rather than to wait, awake, in a cold and moist blanket. Two or three of the locals climbed the slope and reached the tent, and at the cedar, the remaining one saw to lights of the torches moving in a frantic way, he understood the group was captured, he lit the fire. Then the captured tourists and locals came back. They stayed some time around the fire, and they began to take the first tourists, one by one, to the stream. And no time pull a camera and take photos in the dark.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM ---As for the signs.I always thought this was referring to the Mansi signs on the trees?
--- End quote ---

Yes, the sentence refers to the Mansi signs on the trees, indeed. But I like the idea that these signs on the trees were not the most important to read, that they missed other signs which were also there and that they couldn't read either.


--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM ---"In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place.
--- End quote ---

Yes I like a lot this sentence. But I like also the tragic that the letters which were the most important to be read were not written on the trees but in the snow... and that they were following these signs (tracks) without knowledge of their meaning and going down a path leading to the wrong place.

Greetings

Charles

Jean Daniel Reuss:


--- Quote from: Charles on June 12, 2022, 03:47:21 PM ---              Reply #48
.....................................

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM ---              Reply #47
.....................................

--- End quote ---

I notice that Charles has now stopped supporting the unbelievable theory "that hikers took part in a fight between them".

So I will adopt Charles' idea - brilliant in its simplicity - that the fatal altercation took place not in the darkness, on February 1 from 8 PM, but in the daylight, on February 2 from 9 AM.

Thus, with a few modifications of moderate importance, my already obsolete TOKEB theory can be transformed into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Answer for Ziljoe :
The question of Zotaryov's camera is unimportant, because it can be easily explained in various ways. For instance

           1° This camera was always attached to the collar of Zolotaryov's jacket.
           2° In full daylight, the attackers clearly saw that Zolotaryov did not have the opportunity to take a single compromising photo,
or else it is also the attackers who have unleashed themselves the 11 snapshots through a cloth using a slightly dirty lens.

   Star man : The Cameras ; December 30, 2018, 02:17:31 AM --->   Reply #22
First of all why did he [Zolotaryov] have it around his neck when he was found?  The only reasonable explanation is that he was already wearing it around his neck when he left the camp site and before whatever events started.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Now I summarize here some ideas which could be used to develop TOKEC.

    ••• Soviet officials (UPI Sports Club, Route Commision, PCSU....) have underestimated the hostile anti-Russian ambience in this region of the Urals (Vizhay, Ivdellag....) and have sent or let go the hikers, exemplary citizens, into a viper's nest (wolf's mouth).

Normally the hikers should not have stopped at District 41.
[We had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st.
we had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st. (Dubinina)

Loose}{Cannon :
 These hikers are in the communist party.  All devotion and complete commitment to the party is required to be a "good", communist, especially when your a young lad attending the communist state technical school where they were likely hand picked for a promising future in a high-tech industry like enriching plutonium and long distance communications....

    ••• The persistent cover-up by successive governments is simply explained by the need to hide the shameful incompetency of the KGB and other police forces.


    ••• Three categories of men had valid reasons to feel a fierce hatred against the Khrushchev regime.

     1° The house arresters who constituted a small part of the District 41 personnel.  The ones we do not see because they refused to appear on any pictures.
In the kind of sons of Polish officers massacred in Katyn.......

     2°   Among the locals there were peaceful Mansi tribes (Kurikov, Bahtiyarov, Anyamov). But
 
  Grigoriy Nikolaevich Kurikov: said that "near [a moutain not located]..... there live ... Ostyaks. They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people............And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they thought that hikers could kill their deer and moose, which they feed on".

There were those who "leads anti-Soviet agitation among Mansi against the unification of Mansi into collective farms, against sedentarism, incites hatred among Russians and the existing Soviet system, claiming that the Russians bring only death to Mansi".

It is the predictable and inevitable clash of 2 irreconcilable civilizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

     3° Former Stalinist guards of the Ivdellag (specialized in the pursuit and the elimination of the rare escapees from the camps before being reduced to unemployment by the dismantling of the Gulag) who were opposed to the Krushchev's Thaw (1953 or 56 -1664), (it is the "K" of TOKEC).


    ••• These 3 categories of people :
••   found themselves, willingly or unwillingly, constrained to live in the same vast territory: in the vicinity of Vizhay and Ivdellag
••   for many years.
The same hatred of the USSR or of the Degel logically joined their competences and their murderous determination.


    ••• The hikers, who thought they were living in the Soviet paradise, were not very clever in their diplomacy.
In Vizhay and even more so in District 41, the hikers were felt by some people as a provocation.
 Dubinina by intuition and perhaps also Zolotariov by his long experience were affected by it causing a dull concern and a psychological uneasiness.
     
    ••• The hikers had described and (too) much talked about their route to reach Ortoten through the Auspya valley.
But this valley is a bad route because there is a lot of soft snow in the taiga, which slows down the progress.
There are at least two other faster routes from Vizhay or North-2 to the slope of the Kholat Syakhl.

So the attackers (murderers) did not follow the hikers' trail in the Auspya valley.

    ••• Planning of the ambush in an isolated place (slope of Kholat Syakhl)
 Not in the taiga where there are too many trees.
The fire, the observation post on top of the Cedar, the 4 beds of branches were made and used by the attackers.

Thus the attackers saw the hikers set up the tent on the evening of February 1 and ascended from the Cedar to the tent on the morning of February 2 when it was daylight.


    ••• On the morning of February 2,  in daylight, i.e. when the effectiveness of a verbal gun threat is likely, some of the attackers visibly and amicably approached the tent
  With a single shotgun with all the required legal permits and powerful ammunition for hunting bear or elk.

[Nikolay Pavlovich Anyamov
Mansi had to register their weapons in Ivdel. Any other weapons would have been illegal, and the punishment was severe.


    ••• A friendly conversation starts with a hiker, for example with Tibo, who is well dressed outside of the tent.
....... and suddenly a warning shot and an imperative order addressed to the 8 other hikers still inside the tent
"Obey our orders strictly or we will kill your comrade".

"Get out of your tent immediately and go down slowly in ranks towards our camp at the foot of the Cedar where there is fire. Otherwise we will kill your comrade."
  "Be reasonable and all will be well", (another treachery).


    ••• Among the attackers, the hunter had the legal authorization to carry a hunting weapon.
The loggers, who were trained in the felling of trees with long-handled axes, obviously knew how to use the birch wood blunt objects wrapped in rags, with vigour and precision.


    ••• The desecration of the corpses of defeated enemies was often constated in history (Dehumanization,brutalization, revenge, throphy taking...). An example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

The myth of small rodents choosing their dessert under the snow was invented not to scare children and sensitive souls......

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