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Which commonly known "facts" are not factual?

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To Jean Daniel Reuss

My argument about the camera films is.
If any professional group of murderers or hit men were involved ,, taking care  into account, premeditation of the task at hand. They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.

Obviously I'm not a professional killer and I have no intention to be so neither vam I a unprofessional killer. .... But on both accounts I would destroy the camera films.  If any of this was staged, ogovernment or loggers , the first thing I would do is destroy the film's. This even goes to teddy and the potential of her theory.  A snapshot could have been taken at any time that showed the reason of the deaths. Whether that be several days in advance or otherwise.?
Why take the chance, ? .

Hello Ziljoe

--- Quote ---But on both accounts I would destroy the camera films.  If any of this was staged, government or loggers , the first thing I would do is destroy the film's.
--- End quote ---

Yes but removing the films was closing many doors, crossing out many trails, it was making easier the work of the police. If the hikers were murdered, one of the few tasks of the murderers was just not to remove anything. Removing the film was just aiming at the people met by the hikers in the previous days, it was writing the list of suspects. Because, yes, the police would understand that the murderers were on the films. That is to say the police knew that they could give up with all other possible trails, they already had the good one... And if removing the film, they had to remove the diaries too... Like signing the murder: To whom it may concern, we, the murderers, were met by these victims during their journey to this location: our faces were on their films, our names were in they diaries, we had to remove these evidences but talk to the people of Vizhay and District 41 to write down your list of suspects, you will read our names on it. Greetings.

I think one of the most essential aspects of the case is the nature of space. What is the open ? What is the closure ? What is a place ? In a city, there are streets, stairs, apartments, in the countryside, there are villages, roads, fields... but here, it is very different, it is the open... The Soviets numbered the settlements: District 41, Northern 2, etc. in a sort of attempt to rationalize space (but just idealizing in the end)... But in was a very strange place, mixing the open and a trend for humans to agglomerate (see the loggers on the stairs, the hikers in the truck, etc.), prison camps were built there (and "inmates" stayed after the guards left), but Mansi were semi-nomadic, Soviets became semi-nomadic: building a settlement like Northern 2 and then abandoning it, loggers were outcasts... it was temporary agglomeration and then expansion... nothing everlasting, snow hosting then covering any meaningful signs...

When not removing anything from the scene, hypothetical murderers left the police facing this "open"... and we can't close the case, it's like if the case resisted the "closure" like the space of the Urals (both geographical and sociological) resisted any idea of "closure". Like an "unknown compelling force" both agglomerating the loggers on the stairs and slowly expanding the nails and the boards of the barracks of Northern 2 to rust and dust...

Hello Jean Daniel

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM ---So the attackers (murderers) did not follow the hikers' trail in the Auspya valley.
--- End quote ---

I think the attackers were beyond the hikers. In the morning of Jan. 28, when the hikers woke up at Northern 2, they were already behind their attackers.

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM --- in an isolated place (slope of Kholat Syakhl)
--- End quote ---

I think it was important that the ambush took place on the northern side of the Pass, because in meant "other territory"... The other side of the pass has a meaning: "Pavel Bahtiyarov said to me that if the hikers perish, it must have happened on the other side of the Ural mountain range"... other side of the range, other side of the ridge, means other people concern, not of our concern...

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM --- Not in the taiga where there are too many trees.
--- End quote ---

The northern slope, once they passed the ridge, is like a reward for the skiers, after the harsh climb. It is a beautiful and gentle slope, an irresistible slope, the nordic skiers could ski in alpine style, and it ended precisely, between the two streams, at the cedar... like a trap (a natural "desert kite"). I think the attackers expected to see the hikers pass the ridge and ski right to them. But there was a delay and the hikers climbed on a higher ground, and set camp on the slope. The attackers expected to face the arrival of the hikers, they had to turn and aim to their right.

Setting up the ambush downslope was good tactics because the hikers had to climb back to escape. And maybe the hikers were even told  they had a beautiful slope to ski after the pass. After climbing to the pass, when you ski the gentle slope, if you want to enjoy the longest run, you finish at the cedar...

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM ---The fire, the observation post on top of the Cedar, the 4 beds of branches were made and used by the attackers.
--- End quote ---

I think so. And I think the reindeers of the attackers were left at the chum, as according to a testimony, the snow had been moved by several reindeers: "At one kilometer from the the tent of the hikers we found Mansi stand where they herded the deer". I think the Russian rescuers misinterpreted the freshness of the tracks.

Loggers knew how to ride reindeers and sledges, Ognev: "He worked in cooperation as the head of the site in the village of Khurumpaul from the Berezovsky district industrial complex (he drove limestone stones on a reindeer sled along the winter road from a lime quarry to the Yatriya River for firing to lime)." Ognev made a 250 km journey on sledge, alone with a dead woman: "in 1961 he drove the murdered cook of the party from Man-Nyais to Ivdel on a reindeer team and buried her there".

The start of my theory (I claim its paternity unless somebody already described loggers from district 41 riding sleds and driving reindeers) is the possibility that loggers could ride reindeers as opened by Yudin's statement: "they ride all kind of".

The soviets wanted to create a "New Man", but in the Urals was also created a new type of man: the result of melting political and criminal, guard and inmate, tormentor and victim, Russian and Mansi, modern and archaic, sedentary and nomadic, truck and reindeer, rifle and crossbow...

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM ---Thus the attackers saw the hikers set up the tent on the evening of February 1 and ascended from the Cedar to the tent on the morning of February 2 when it was daylight.
--- End quote ---

I think the impatience of the hikers to end the unpleasant night without stove, in moist and cold, forced the attackers to act before dawn. I think the event took place in the very last minutes of the night, when they still had to use torches for light, just minutes before the sky clear up at the horizon in the east. Maybe the attackers discovered at the last moment that the hikers' tent was on the slope on their right... maybe they were still expecting to harvest the hikers in the morning, at the end of their alpine ride from the pass, and were alerted at some time with the torches.

The action began at the very end of the night and ended at dawn in early morning, maybe before sunrise.

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM ---  With a single shotgun with all the required legal permits and powerful ammunition for hunting bear or elk.(...) Any other weapons would have been illegal, and the punishment was severe.
--- End quote ---

I think they didn't really care about licenses and legal permits:

"He turned out to be a hunter, but his gun broke. And shows me his TOZ-34. I look - for sure, the butt is hanging. I say: let me give you my gun (I had a German Sauer), and you give me your broken gun and dog. He had very good dogs. Looking ahead, I’ll say that later we went with the dog hunting moose and bear. It was a great dog! So we did the exchange."

"The TOZ-34 shotgun was confiscated as an evidence on a criminal case in Verhotursk, and it is now disappeared without a trace."

Maybe all attackers had guns, with or without license.


Jean Daniel Reuss:

The DPI can be compared to a huge jigsaw puzzle in which the pieces are made up of the documents at our disposal.

Everything has to fit together to build the most plausible, most coherent and most complete theory possible.

Maya Piskareva   --->
«.....But, alas, we learn the truth either from the state, or when we find ourselves in another world, where there are no diseases, sorrows and sighing ... In the meantime, it remains to intellectually entertain ourselves with a game of investigation.....»

Taking advantage of Charles' new ideas, I am transforming my TOKEB theory into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Some brief insights into TOKEC
No staging and most of the materials are true.

Hostage taking, with death threats against one of the 9 hikers, in daylight, on the morning of 2 February, to explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

Presence in the vicinity of the Ivdellag of a group of men animated by a hatred and a murderous rage, the reasons for which can be explained by the history of the dismantling of the Gulag during the Thaw.

(By convention of language I continue to call them "attackers" ).

For the attackers the 9 hikers appeared to be propagandists directed by the PCSU via the Sports Committee and the Road Commission and were therefore enemies.

--- Quote from: Ziljoe on June 13, 2022, 07:36:48 PM ---              Reply #50
If .........murderers....... They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.....
... I would destroy the camera films..............................
... the first thing I would do is destroy the film's......................

--- End quote ---

The case of the cameras that were left in the tent.
The attackers were pretty sure that there was nothing compromising in the cameras inside the tent.

Nobody wants to be seen next to their own enemies in a photograph !

The people in Vizhay (26 January) and the workers from District 41 (27 January) who appear in these photos have no hostile intentions towards the hikers

At these events, the attackers did not want to be photographed and moved away.

The decision for the massacre was taken after Yuri Yudin returned to District 41, i.e. on the evening of 28 January 1959.
Yuri confirmed the route of the (now 9) hikers (through the Auspiya valley) and the attackers departed on 29 January or perhaps only on 30 January.

The attackers did not follow the tracks of the hihers in the Auspiya valley because they knew the faster route which is the route of the Unknown expedition.

The attackers set up camp at the foot of the cedar tree on 1 February. A little before the hikers set up their tent higher up the slope of Kholat Syakhl (the attackers' interception of the hikers could have failed).

The case of the camera which is carried by Zoloraryov.
You reason logically like a person who, at least I assume it, writes calmly on his computer keyboard.

But at the end of a risky, physically exhausting and extremely stressful operation, the attackers did not notice the unexpected presence of this camera.
(The psychological phenomenon that sometimes we only see what we are looking for).

• While fighting on the Eastern Front, Zolotaryov had felt the advantage of having a weapon instantly available.
• Returning to a peaceful, touristy civilian life, Zolotaryov had developed the habit of attaching his camera to his jacket in an often inconspicuous way.
Often wild animals (elk, wolverine, bear) appear and then disappear quickly and it is useful to always be ready (to trigger the camera).
• Which is perhaps another reason why Zolotaryov's camera was simply not noticed by the attackers.

(cf. the close-ups of Gorojanin).


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