Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Teddy on April 30, 2020, 11:33:59 AM

Title: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Teddy on April 30, 2020, 11:33:59 AM
In the Case files are mentioned 4 watches: Dyatlov is wearing Zvezda, Slobodin - Pobeda, Thibeaux-Brignolle - Pobeda and Sportivnye.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-group-watches-1.jpg)
In the Case files are mentioned Zvezda, Sportivnye and 2 x Pobeda.

Dyatlov was found with Zvezda on his left hand showing 5:31.

Case files I - 121 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18080&flp=1#121) Autopsy: "On the lower third portion of the left forearm there is a Zvezda brand watch; the hands of the watch show 5:31."
Case files I - 69 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18037) Maslennikov testimony: "On his hand Dyatlov was wearing a wristwatch that stopped at 5:31."
Case files II - 41 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19580) Ivanov: "Wrist watch Zvezda 5:31"
Case files II - 45 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19583) Ivanov: "Zvezda 5:31 on Dyatlov"
Case files II - 46 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19598) "I, A.A. Dyatlov received from Ivanov:... 5) Wriswatch Zvezda on a strap with arrows coated with luminous substance."

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-06.jpg)
On this photo Dyatlov (bent down) is wearing a watch on his right hand, but he was found with watch on his left hand.



Slobodin was found with Zvezda Pobeda on his left hand showing 8:45.

Case files I - 96 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18081&flp=1#96) Autopsy: "On his wrist is a Zvezda brand watch showing the time 8:45."
 Zvezda is mentioned only in the autopsy report. The rest of the documents read Pobeda and Slobodin owned a Pobeda.
Radiogram 183 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=17745&flp=1#183) "On his wrist a watch Pobeda stopped at 8:45"
Case files II - 73 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19589) "I, N. F. Slobodina received from prosecutor comrade Ivanov:...3. Watch Pobeda on a strap."

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-watches.jpg)



Thibeaux-Brignolle was found wearing two wrist watches on his left hand, a Pobeda showing 9:38 or 8:38 and Zportivnye showing 9:15 or 8:15.

Case files I - 341 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18296) "...on his first hand are two watches brands Pobeda and Sportivnye the watches show - Pobeda 9:38, and the Sportivnye 9:15"
 9:38 is repeated once more in this document. Must be an error that the times in both watches are off with an hour.
Case files I - 352 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18083&flp=1#2watches) Autopsy: "On the left forearm there are two watches: a Sportivnye watch showing the time 8:14:24, and a Pobeda brand watch showing the time 8:39."
Case files II - 72 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19586) "I, Elizaveta Iosifovna Muzafarova,... received Pobeda wristwatch... belonging to Nikolay Tibo."

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolay-Thibeaux-Brignolle-watches.jpg)

Sportivnye is identified by his relatives to belong to Krivonicshenko.
Case files II - 9 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19595) "I, Igor Alekseevich Krivonischenko received from Prosecutor comrade Ivanov:...3. Wristwatch Sportivnye"
Why is Tibo wearing Krivonicshenko’s wristwatch? I have came across three theories:

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-photo-duel-Krivonischneko-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg)
Krivonischenko (left) and Tibo (right) - these two photos ate taken at the same time with swapped cameras.

On the photo below some people see 2 watches, although I believe this is a fiber or defect on the film.  Here is a link to the original photo (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-camera-film3-15.jpg).

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-15.jpg)

Link to the original photo (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1_1.jpg) of the bodies in the river where the two watches on Tibo wrist can be clearly seen.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1_1.jpg)



Zolotaryov had a watch Pobeda on this trek that he was not wearing when they found his body.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-01.jpg)

Later watch Pobeda was among the Zolotaryov’s belongings that were given to Sogrin until his mother arrived for identification.
Case files I - 258 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18152) "I,  Vera Ivanovna Zolotaryeva, mother of Semyon Alekseevich Zolotaryov,   received from Prosecutor comrade Ivanov the following items that the   student Sogrin handed over as belonging to my son: wristwatch Pobeda 1  MWF (Minsk Watch Factory) on a strap, in working condition..."



Kolevatov’s Molnya was in the items brought back from the tent but not in the inventory.

So far we have 5 watches. Here is a sixth one:
Grigoriev notebook 2 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19561&flp=1#scan36) "There is a pocket watch in the pocket of one backpack, which stopped at 2:15." "Vishnevskiy took the letter, the purse, money, diaries and watches."

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Molniya.jpg)

Kolevatov  kept his watch in the pocket while Zolotaryov wore his Pobeda on the  left hand. This is why we attribute the time 2:15 to the Molnya. It was  put in a backpack with all the items found in the tent and later on  identified by his sister. This watch never made it into the inventory  included in the case files.
Case files II - 50 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=19592) "Kolevatov's sister: My brother had a pocket watch, he fixed it, similar to the one here (Molniya)..."
Doroshenko was poor, he didn’t have a watch. Or at least there is no photo of him before or during the trek wearing one. We see Zina and Lyuda wearing watches on other treks but we do not have a photo from the trek to Otorten of the girls wearing a timepiece.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-03.jpg)

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Lyudmila-Dubinina-57.jpg)



Dyatlov 5:31
Slobodin 8:45
Tibo 8:39 8:15

These times made people wonder if there is a connection between the time of death and the time showing on the watch. I was recently given an article by Vladimir Borzenkov, who is a Dyatlov case avid follower and researcher, but more importantly he took part in more than 20 rescue operations, some of them in very similar regions and climates. I will be publishing a long article about another incident, which was the first one to surpass the Dyatlov Pass incident by duration and complexity of the search operations, and the number of dead. This is the Chivruay tragedy. Vladimir Borzenkov took part in the search in 1973, he was the one handling the bodies. I will tell you in more detail about his experiment in Lovozerskie Tundry, but in that case also they had frozen bodies with wrist watches and they wonder f the fact they stopped in the span of 30 mins per each group that allegedly died together. In Dyatlov Pass we have a body with two watches and they stopped 24 mins apart. Borzenkov makes a very important discovery - the watch of the last frozen body found continue to work after the body thawed. Unfortunately we don’t have this information for Dyatlov group.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-14.jpg)
Slobodin thawing in the Ivdel morgue. The "Pobeda" is still on his frozen hand.

There are 3 reasons a manual wind watch to stop in this conditions:
Many experiments are done on the subject. Here is one http://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=394#p11753
The time on these three watches was set to 12:00 and they were placed in a freezer with a temperature of -20°C (-4°F) for 2 hours (two-compressor refrigerator with an electronic control unit, it keeps the temperature quite accurately). The result is in the photo. The watches stopped in the span of 8-25 minutes. After taking them out of the freezer and let to thaw they continue working normally.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Frozen-watches.jpg)

The bottom line is that the watches on the bodies may tell us when the bodies hit the frozen ground where they were found.
You will have more information on the subject next week straight from Borzenkov.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Borzenkov.jpg)
Vladimir Borzenkov, member of the search party in Chivruay tragedy, he found some of the bodies
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Naufragia on May 03, 2020, 02:12:30 AM
I'm really looking forward to hearing more from Mr Borzenko on this subject. It got me looking at watch forums for Soviet-era watches. There's a lot of collectors out there.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Teddy on May 03, 2020, 03:04:13 AM
Borzenkov sent me his piece long time ago (at least a month if not more). While I was reading it I came across some TV shows where he was invited, and from what I saw I got off my hinges, decided to write my own article about information distortion and what to expect from the media in very near future. I am talking about the media in Russia, because the rest of the world is very far behind on this case. The two articles - Borzenkov and mine will be published a day apart. I plan for this week. It is an overdue monster. The subject is not the watches. The first experiment with the watches was done in 1973 by Vladimir Borzenkov and Anatoliy Ostrovskiy, but overall is not about just the watches. Don't ask who Anatoliy Ostrovskiy is, you will see :)

If I don't publish this week I will go

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/96f7a72e5dfe659274ea982426486736/tumblr_mqub6jU4Kp1s9362xo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: JohnnyNumber6 on May 03, 2020, 05:57:01 PM
I was wondering at what time Sunrise occurred that day.  I used the site https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/time/sunrise_sunset.php (https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/time/sunrise_sunset.php) to attempt to calculate and I've attached the resulting image.  However there are a few things to consider:
 
IF I'm correct about the TimeZone and IF Decree Time does not make a difference, then it looks like Sunrise was at 8:26 AM and Civil Dawn was at 7:35 AM. 

For those who are unaware Civil Dawn is defined as: when there is enough light for most objects to be distinguishable, so that some outdoor activities, but not all, can commence. Formally, civil dawn occurs when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the morning.

I know I'm stating the obvious, but if the time on the watches do in fact correspond to their approximate time of death, then:
     

It is easy to imagine the majority of the group focused on shelter while Dyatlov and Kolmogorova attempted to return to the tent.  After several hours they had not returned and with twilight breaking Slobodin decided to try to reach the tent himself.  Tibo's watches seem to indicate that the shelter collapsed around 8:00 AM.  If Slobodin had been at the shelter then he must have set out long before it collapsed.  How long would it take to hike from shelter to the place he was found?  Assuming that the group was still working together as a unit (no internal strife) then it makes sense that the two Yuri's had long since perished (could have been before or after ID and ZK left).

(https://i.ibb.co/rwXqcDk/Dyatlov-Pass-Sunrise.png) (https://ibb.co/ZMbvYqd)
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 04, 2020, 02:22:22 AM
semyon seems to have been attempting to make notes so it's easy to assume there was some daylight.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 05, 2020, 06:12:32 AM
IF I'm correct about the TimeZone and IF Decree Time does not make a difference, then it looks like Sunrise was at 8:26 AM and Civil Dawn was at 7:35 AM. 

The Dyatlov Pass is in the Yekaterinburg Time Zone: UTC+5.
The Soviets introduced the system of time zones in 1919. Initially Moscow was UTC+2 and YEKT UTC+4. In 1930 (decree time) they added an hour to each time zone in the USSR. Moscow became UTC+3 and YEKT +5. And it’s been like that ever since.
Daylight Saving Time does not apply.
So you need to add two UTC hours, subtract one DST, and you’ll end up with Civil Twilight at 8:35 and sunrise at 9:26 AM local time.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 05, 2020, 06:15:09 AM
That’s very interesting, Teddy. Thank you. I’ve been trying to make sense of the watches as well.

I believe something happened in the early morning of Feb 2. (That something being a missile detonating midair) I believe that two or three hours later all those kids were dead, either from their injuries, hypothermia or both. The time on those watches fit quite nicely with my idea about what happened. But to be honest, it may not mean anything.

1] We don’t know whether those watches showed the right time, or even roughly the same time to begin with. In the mechanical watch era you had to guesstimate the “right” time and set your watch accordingly. People’s guesstimates varied and were usually minutes, sometimes up to 15 minutes apart.
2] We don’t know how accurate those watches were and how they reacted to changes in temperature, humidity and other things. But we do know that different watches react differently to changes in temperature, as the freezer experiment shows.
3] We don’t even know if the cold was the main reason these watches stopped working. In the mechanical watch era as I remember the main cause of death of a watch was shock. Dropping it or slamming it into a doorpost caused the whatsit of the whatsit to break off (I had to look that one up: the pivot of the balance wheel). Only expensive watches were shock resistant (Incabloc, anyone?) So maybe Dyatlov’s watch stopped at 5:31 in the morning because a missile went bang in the sky and as a result something went flying and slammed into his watch. That’s a nice story, yes? Agatha Christie would have been proud. Is there any truth in it? I honestly don’t know.

In short: I don’t think it’s possible to draw any firm conclusions from the time on those watches. Which is a shame because I really like the idea of establishing a TOD just by looking at a watch. It’s totally Poirot. I could be wrong. Perhaps Mr Borzenkov has found a way to out-Poirot Poirot, so to speak.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 05, 2020, 06:16:40 AM
There is one detail about these watches that I am very excited about. It possibly explains why Thibo had Krivonishenko’s watch. As usual the devil is in the details, or in this case in the seconds hand. The hand that counts the seconds.

I have to assume that the pictures at the top show not only the right brand but also the right model. If that’s true there is one marked difference between Thibo’s Pobeda and Krivonishenko’s Sportivnye. The Pobeda has a separate small dial to count the seconds. The Sportivnye has the newer technology of a seconds hand mounted at the same place as the minute and hour hand.

I know for a fact that the small dial was completely useless if you wanted to time something. I know this because my dad used to have a watch like that. He always borrowed my mother’s watch with the large seconds hand if he wanted to time something. And that something usually was… * drumroll * the exposure time of a nighttime photograph.

In my humble opinion the legendary frame №34 is not some throwaway shot made by a technician. It is an actual picture of an actual fast moving light in the night sky. It has all the characteristics of a low-light, tripod-supported, hand timed shutter release photograph. It was made with Krivonishenko’s camera mounted on Krivonishenko’s tripod. And it seems that Thibo timed the exposure time with Krivo’s watch. It all makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Teddy on May 05, 2020, 06:33:58 AM
Niiiice. I like it! I will add this to the three suggestions I had of why did Tibo have 2 watches.
Just give me some time as I am working on something...
Title: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Monty on May 05, 2020, 10:02:22 AM
Some great explanations. For the frame 34 theory, the photo taker would have to have known something was about to happen to get the shot as the time taken to assemble the camera etc would have been long compared to the time the missile would have been in range?
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: sarapuk on May 05, 2020, 01:43:41 PM
semyon seems to have been attempting to make notes so it's easy to assume there was some daylight.


What about a TORCH
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: sarapuk on May 05, 2020, 01:46:57 PM
Some great explanations. For the frame 34 theory, the photo taker would have to have known something was about to happen to get the shot as the time taken to assemble the camera etc would have been long compared to the time the missile would have been in range?

Which could mean it wasnt a MISSILE but something else.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: JohnnyNumber6 on May 05, 2020, 02:02:50 PM
Marley thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 05, 2020, 04:20:37 PM
Two thoughts :-
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 06, 2020, 05:18:56 AM
Some great explanations. For the frame 34 theory, the photo taker would have to have known something was about to happen to get the shot as the time taken to assemble the camera etc would have been long compared to the time the missile would have been in range?

I agree. They didn't have a lot of time to set up the camera and take that photograph. But I think it’s possible.

First the missile. I believe the R-12 is an excellent candidate. It was a theatre ballistic missile, operational range around 2,000 km. Test and initial launch facility of the R-12: Kapustin Yar. Distance (as the crow, or the missile flies) from Kapustin Yar to Dyatlov Pass: 1,700 km. Time of flight: 11.8 minutes.

Assuming the wind had died down, the hikers had an incredible view of the night sky that morning. They were high up on a mountain, there was no moon (moonset was at 04:36) and in the Urals in 1959 there was zero light pollution. They would’ve been able to see that light, that missile, from hundreds of miles away.

I believe Zolotaryov and Thibo were already outside. They were dressed in almost full outside gear. The others were in the process of getting dressed or still laying under their blankets. At what point Z. and T. noticed the light in the sky and realized it was something out of the ordinary I don’t know. Potentially they had a couple of minutes.

Getting the camera ready would take less than thirty seconds. And most of that time would be spent on getting the camera out of its case and putting on Krivo’s watch, if that is what happened. Unfolding a tripod and mounting a camera (back in the day usually a simple screw mechanism) takes perhaps 5 seconds. Setting up the camera itself would take even less time. Those cameras were super easy to operate. You didn’t have flash or zoom or (auto)focus or a light meter. There were just three settings you had to adjust: range, diaphragm and shutter speed. Each had an adjustment ring around the lens, although some cameras had a separate shutter speed dial on top of the camera. You knew the settings by heart. I can still do it, blindfolded, in less than two seconds. Add another second to pull the film advance lever/cock the shutter and that’s it.

So yeah, I think it’s possible.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 06, 2020, 06:33:12 AM
   The traditional explanation for the two watches is that the person on watch wore both in case one stopped.
   

Yes, I read that. But I don’t get it. Does keeping watch means that during the night/part of the night somebody stayed outside in the freezing cold, without a fire, on a windswept mountain? If so, why? Why would anyone do that? Your watch dying on you would be the least of your concerns with your own death by exposure a near certainty. Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 06, 2020, 09:34:10 AM
No i don't think they had to stay outside, just stay awake.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 07, 2020, 08:18:22 AM
No i don't think they had to stay outside, just stay awake.

Okay, but that confuses me even more. If keeping watch means lying awake in the tent, what's this person looking out for? What possible dangers is (s)he supposed to monitor from inside the tent? Why does (s)he needs a watch? No, why does the night watcher need two watches when there are four, five, six people wearing a watch in that same tent with him/her? huh1
What's the story behind this explanation?
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 07, 2020, 08:48:21 AM
Okay, but that confuses me even more. If keeping watch means lying awake in the tent, what's this person looking out for? What possible dangers is (s)he supposed to monitor from inside the tent? Why does (s)he needs a watch? No, why does the night watcher need two watches when there are four, five, six people wearing a watch in that same tent with him/her? huh1
What's the story behind this explanation?

Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: sparrow on May 08, 2020, 03:55:23 AM
Good answer Nigel!  I have been wondering that myself.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 08, 2020, 06:50:51 AM
Okay, but that confuses me even more. If keeping watch means lying awake in the tent, what's this person looking out for? What possible dangers is (s)he supposed to monitor from inside the tent? Why does (s)he needs a watch? No, why does the night watcher need two watches when there are four, five, six people wearing a watch in that same tent with him/her? huh1
What's the story behind this explanation?

   
  • Ensuring the tent doesn't get buried in snow is a good one (CO2 asphyxiation).
  • Ensure the tent remains secure in the wind, have to stay dressed in case you have to go outside to make adjustments.

I’m not sure if keeping all your clothes on inside the tent would be a good idea, but otherwise I agree with your first two points. Snow/weather conditions are a valid reason to keep an eye open at night. But I don’t see how that explains Thibo’s two watches.
   
Quote
  • If the stove was in use, CO poisoning would be a concern.

The stove creeps me out. I am not even that concerned about the carbon monoxide. It’s just that hot pipe hanging less than a meter above your head. Maybe I’m overestimating the heat generated by the stove but still. If something happens to it you’re trapped. You’re f***d.  explode1 The hikers were a lot less squeamish than me, that’s for certain. But the dangers of the stove are irrelevant in this case. They didn’t put it up that night, so it can’t explain Thibo’s two watches.
   
Quote
  • Someone's got to wake the group at the correct time or they could lose a day from the plan.

Personally I wouldn’t lose any sleep over the risk of oversleeping in a situation like that. It’s not a luxury hotel or a frat house after a night of binge drinking (very American metaphor, no?) When nine people are packed like sardines, or herring in a barrel, the chances of them snoring the hours away is precisely nil. And again, it does not explain the need for two watches.
   
Quote
  • If someone goes to the toilet during the night someone has to be alert to them not returning promptly or they'd die.

The size of the tent is also relevant here. I actually think it might be key to solving the case. But that’s another thread. The only person who has a chance to sneak away undetected is the one sleeping right next to the entrance. Just putting on your outside pants and jacket is going to wake up your neighbours. Crawling over that sea of bodies with some unfortunate placing of hands and knees is going to wake up everybody else. Speaking from experience: you’re not supposed to go for a night time pee, people!  grin1 There is no need for someone to stay awake in case a fellow hiker wants to take on that challenge. Yet again, there is no need for someone to have two watches.

And herein lies the problem. We may disagree on what constitutes a good reason to stay awake at night. That’s fine. That’s what forums are for. But I haven’t been able to find a single one, good, bad or ugly, that explains the need for two watches.

Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 08:06:28 AM
And herein lies the problem. We may disagree on what constitutes a good reason to stay awake at night. That’s fine. That’s what forums are for. But I haven’t been able to find a single one, good, bad or ugly, that explains the need for two watches.
So the person on watch can be sure when to wake the next person up is the only reason i can think of.


Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: JohnnyNumber6 on May 08, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
Quote
I believe Zolotaryov and Thibo were already outside. They were dressed in almost full outside gear. The others were in the process of getting dressed or still laying under their blankets. At what point Z. and T. noticed the light in the sky and realized it was something out of the ordinary I don’t know. Potentially they had a couple of minutes.

So why did the others cut themselves out of the tent?  It would seem the only way this makes sense is if Z and T had the camera outside with them already and they either did not alert the others, the others ignored them, or the others were slow in getting moving.  If Z and T had to retrieve the camera from the tent I'd assume they wouldn't refasten the door in order to save time and also assuming that at least one of the others would follow them outside.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: sarapuk on May 08, 2020, 12:53:31 PM
Okay, but that confuses me even more. If keeping watch means lying awake in the tent, what's this person looking out for? What possible dangers is (s)he supposed to monitor from inside the tent? Why does (s)he needs a watch? No, why does the night watcher need two watches when there are four, five, six people wearing a watch in that same tent with him/her? huh1
What's the story behind this explanation?
  • Ensuring the tent doesn't get buried in snow is a good one (CO2 asphyxiation).
  • Ensure the tent remains secure in the wind, have to stay dressed in case you have to go outside to make adjustments.
  • If the stove was in use, CO poisoning would be a concern.
  • Someone's got to wake the group at the correct time or they could lose a day from the plan.
  • If someone goes to the toilet during the night someone has to be alert to them not returning promptly or they'd die.

You could have added one more reason  ;  Someone had to stay awake because they had been followed by someone or something.  And that could also be why they pitched Tent in an exposed position.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: PJ on May 08, 2020, 04:59:02 PM
I think that Tibo took the watch from Krivonishenko after his dead. This is the easiest explanation. They take cloths from him so the watch as well, if he will be left untouched after dead we could speculating how the watch went on Tibo's hand but in this situation the reason is clear.
I never hear about situation that a person on a watch was using two watches, and I never uses two watches as well (I did watches when scouting and sailing), one watch was competently enough. Even if he was on the watch his responsibility wasn't to deploy rocket to the moon so he doesn't have to be very accurate.

I have big doubts if the Experiment with Watches gives any clues about the fact what time they die. They proofed that watch will stop working quite fast when get frozen but to lose conscious from hypothermia your body temperature have to go below 28C, under 21C you goes into coma so generally you could "looks like dead" when your body temperature is around 25C. To reduce the body temperature to below zero could takes another few hours depends of your exposition to the cold. In case of Slobodin, he felt on his face, keep hands/watch under the body so it takes long time for the watch to frozen. In case of Dyatlov his hand was up, exposed to cold and wind so the watch sopped much faster after he stopped moving.
Generally, interesting experiment with the watches but in the case of Dyatlov Group it not gives any answers. Some watches could working for hours after the owner lost conscious.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 08, 2020, 11:02:53 PM
I think that Tibo took the watch from Krivonishenko after his dead. This is the easiest explanation.
Yes, taking the watch off a dead friend is understandable, to keep it safe. But if it was me i would wrap it in a piece of cloth and put it in a pocket. I wouldn't wear a dead friend's watch unless i had a good reason...
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: RidgeWatcher on May 09, 2020, 10:57:47 PM
Could he have won the watch in a poker game back at District 41 or Settlement 2? In Alaska in 1990 I won a Legal Name Change worth $2,000. I know it isn't mentioned in the diaries. I am sure not everything is mentioned in the diaries?
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Marley on May 10, 2020, 07:33:25 AM
Quote
I believe Zolotaryov and Thibo were already outside. They were dressed in almost full outside gear. The others were in the process of getting dressed or still laying under their blankets. At what point Z. and T. noticed the light in the sky and realized it was something out of the ordinary I don’t know. Potentially they had a couple of minutes.

So why did the others cut themselves out of the tent?  It would seem the only way this makes sense is if Z and T had the camera outside with them already and they either did not alert the others, the others ignored them, or the others were slow in getting moving.  If Z and T had to retrieve the camera from the tent I'd assume they wouldn't refasten the door in order to save time and also assuming that at least one of the others would follow them outside.

That’s the million rubles question isn’t it? Why did they cut the tent? The answer may solve the entire mystery. I do have an explanation but it’s a long story and has nothing to do with watches. I may have to start a new topic to explain my theory in detail.

In the meantime, the chain of events that morning, according to my theory goes a bit like this:


As far as I know it’s not clear whether the tent was found fastened or not. If you know of a reliable source that says those toggles were definitely fastened I’d really like to know. It would totally destroy my theory. cry2

Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on May 10, 2020, 01:58:14 PM
I think that Tibo took the watch from Krivonishenko after his dead. This is the easiest explanation. They take cloths from him so the watch as well, if he will be left untouched after dead we could speculating how the watch went on Tibo's hand but in this situation the reason is clear. ...........................

I have big doubts if the Experiment with Watches gives any clues about the fact what time they die. They proofed that watch will stop working quite fast when get frozen but to lose conscious from hypothermia your body temperature have to go below 28C, under 21C you goes into coma so generally you could "looks like dead" when your body temperature is around 25C. To reduce the body temperature to below zero could takes another few hours depends of your exposition to the cold. In case of Slobodin, he felt on his face, keep hands/watch under the body so it takes long time for the watch to frozen. In case of Dyatlov his hand was up, exposed to cold and wind so the watch sopped much faster after he stopped moving.
Generally, interesting experiment with the watches but in the case of Dyatlov Group it not gives any answers. Some watches could working for hours after the owner lost conscious.

  Hi PJ
I am interested in your justified doubts about the different times of the dead...

To simplify, we can say that we can distinguish two classes of theories according to the moment when Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov fell down on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, and never got up again. It was either:

a) - going down the slope and towards the cedar.
 In this case they would have fallen the first, so at the beginning of that fateful night.

b) - by going up the slope in order to find the tent (which would have been difficult in the darkness, cf. WAB)
 In this case they would have died the last, not so much before the dawn of February 2nd.

Whichever theory one prefers to explain the DPI, it would be very useful to know whether the reality corresponds to case a) or b), but actually the indicated stopping times:
( Dyatlov = 5:31; Slobodin = 8:45; Tibo = 8:39 and 8:15 ) do not allow for an answer.

However, what is your opinion on my defense of hypothesis a) ?
(falls and then dies on the way down from Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov in the evening)
From the description of the injuries: https://dyatlovpass.com/death my hypothesis a) implies :

 • Dyatlov and Slobodin would have fallen and not got up again, let's say before midnight. Despite their major injuries (fractures of the skull in Slobodin), they remained alive for a long time and therefore less cold, although unconscious or out of mind, which could explain the late stopping of the watches (Dya = 5:31; Slo = 8:45).

 • On the contrary, Thibeaux-Brignolles, although his wounds are not more spectacular at first sight, would have died more quickly, that is to say he would have cooled down more quickly, hence a possible death between, say, 4 PM and 7 PM.  (Tibo = 8:39 and 8:15 )


.................................................
Yes, taking the watch off a dead friend is understandable, to keep it safe. But if it was me I would wrap it in a piece of cloth and put it in a pocket. I wouldn't wear a dead friend's watch unless i had a good reason...

 It is very distressing to realize, while tattooning in complete darkness, in extreme cold, that in an unexpected and frightening way, your two friends are lying there in the snow, completely killed,

Thibeaux-Brignolles may have had good reasons to worry and to want to leave the cedar, that cursed and dangerous place, as quickly as possible... The unidentifiable threat could grow and death could strike at any moment.

In fact, we now know that the 4 of the den were also mortally wounded, certainly not long afterwards.

It was really not the right time to worry about "a piece of cloth".

Thibeaux-Brignolles was not calmly writing a note, sitting comfortably in a heated office !   

Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: PJ on May 10, 2020, 05:33:13 PM
Hi Jean,

I think that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko die first from hypothermia, under the Cedar.  Doroshenko die, according to the file, about 6-8 hours after the last meal, so probably sometime between 1am - 4am.

After they die, the rest known they will not survive long without sleeping bags etc, so Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin made attempt to get it from tent. Diatlov (he must die after Krivonishenko, because he was wearing his shirt) die first from this group, and because his hand was up his watch could stopped relatively fast 5:31am (it is a bit strange that he lie down on his back with open vest but maybe Kolmogorova or Slobodin was trying to take off the vest from him after he die but after opening it, they wasn't able to remove it - not easy to do it specially if you are very tired and almost dead too) Kolmogorova and Slobodin was going up, Slobodin body was found not far from below one of the step/outcrop, it is possible that he slide down/fall from it injured his head and die there, his hands was under his body so his watch was working longer till 8:45. Kolmogorova die a bit higher - her position shows that she was going up.

It is possible that Slobodin die on the way down at night, he felt from the step/outcrop, bang his head, loss conscious so nobody take him from there. He lie down in snow, still alive for few hours.

The rest in the ravine die later; Tibo watches stopped at 8:14 and 8:39 I guess it could be evening time because I think that they build the Den during daylight so after 8:30am

But it is possible as well that Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin departed at the daylight too, and the watches stopped at the afternoon. It will be much more logic because looking for tent in the darkness and cold night sounds as mission impossible. Much more logic is stay in forest at the fire till morning and go up them.

The death times from autopsy are confusing, I am not sure if they take into account the fact that the digestive processes slow down dramatically during hypothermia.

So I will say that most likely option B(they die on the way up) but in case of Slobodin could be option A(die on the way down)

But as in Dyatlov Case,  one question creates another questions and still no answer..
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: RidgeWatcher on May 10, 2020, 10:06:56 PM
1) At 2nd Settlement the group stayed in the only inhabitable structure. This was still not safe. A diary entry suggests that many injured themselves on rusty nails. Was there enough time to possibly affect the mental wellbeing of the Hikers?

2) It has been a while since I have read my Dyatlov books but Zina in her dairy discusses that Dyatlov is not himself and very angry. Hs anyone been able to find out why?

3) Yuri Yudin, in 2nd Settlement supposedly went to an open mine shaft during his rock surveying to bring some rock specimens back home. Could illegal miners have witnessed the Hikers and followed them?

4) With all due respect: Was Yuri Yuden gay? Both Zina and Lyuda were both down when his sciatica flared up and he was going back home. Dyatlov was a level headed young man but in photos he seems to really relish the closeness Yuri has with Zina, I don't see that same cheerfulness when Zina is in the photos with the other male Hikers. This would have been one way the KGB could have blackmailed Yuri into doing something he really didn't want to do. Again, this question is asked in respect to Yuri.

I apologize for having more questions than opinions but as I renew my reading I am sure this will change. Thank you my fellow posters.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Monika on May 11, 2020, 01:39:00 AM
Hello,

I can't believe someone was patrolling at the tent at night and check the time.
Firstly, there is no mention about it in the diary. They wrote there all sorts of little things in the diary, and if it usually one of them to has a patrol every day, I think they would mention it there. Not to mention that it is pointless for someone to patrol. It was a very strenuous expedition and each member had to be fit – rested in the morning. Besides, it’s unimportant the exact time they had to get up, because they didn't get on the train. It makes no sense for someone to check the time and even with two watches.

I think Tibo took the watch from Krivonishenko after his dead. One reason occurred to me: watches are the only valuables tourists had with them in the woods after escaping from the tent. In case they manage to get into civilization somehow, they will need money e.g. on the way home. It was obvious to them that they would not get to the tent where the money was. And four watches together could already give a nice amount of money.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 11, 2020, 06:35:41 AM
It occurs to me that we're arguing over the wrong thing. Whether they normally kept a watch or did not isn't really relevant. What is relevant is whether they opted to keep a watch whilst in the den (one stay awake whilst others slept). If so then this is a clue to the mystery. We know that there is evidence that the fire was deliberately put out.

Perhaps as if they wanted to hide from a threat but remain alert to it.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: PJ on May 11, 2020, 02:05:32 PM
We know that there is evidence that the fire was deliberately put out.
Where is the evidence?
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 12, 2020, 01:05:28 AM
We know that there is evidence that the fire was deliberately put out.
Where is the evidence?
It should be in the case files (somewhere). The rescue party observed that the logs indicated that the fire hadn't burnt itself out but had stopped (80 mm logs only burned halfway through). Plus there was spare kindling unused. There's little wind in the forest so the fire should have just carried on burning.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: PJ on May 12, 2020, 04:11:39 PM
It should be in the case files (somewhere). The rescue party observed that the logs indicated that the fire hadn't burnt itself out but had stopped (80 mm logs only burned halfway through). Plus there was spare kindling unused. There's little wind in the forest so the fire should have just carried on burning.
80 mm logs often stop burning if there is no smaller kindling under it, specially that they could be a bit wet(wood in winter is often frozen with lots of water inside it) and the fact that there was spare kindling unused could mean that they stop taking care about fire - building Den, going up to tent.
The only proof that the fire was put down will be finding many charcoaled pieces of wood inside the fire, not yet turned into ash. But as I know, there is not information about it anywhere or even photo of the fire.
(http://www.webdesignstudio.ie/images/fire2.jpg)
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 13, 2020, 12:20:14 AM
They wisely chose cedar wood which i understand is dry and burns well. Presumably the fire fitted with the LHS of your post.
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: PJ on May 13, 2020, 04:19:03 PM
Yes, the cedar burns very well, but I am not sure that the "80 mm logs only burned halfway through" was from cedar. A bit to big for braking it without axe, I guess they just found it somewhere around. From photos looks like it was a tree trunk.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-320.jpg
Title: Re: Watches in the Dyatlov group
Post by: Nigel Evans on May 14, 2020, 05:48:02 AM
Cedars shed decent sized branches in high winds. Probably found it lying on the ground.