Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: tenne on April 20, 2023, 01:29:03 PM
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I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
Walk in the deep snow without skis and proper footwear and try to dig out a den using hands, a knife sheath which is all that was officially found and branches.
Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used
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I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
Walk in the deep snow without skis and proper footwear and try to dig out a den using hands, a knife sheath which is all that was officially found and branches.
Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used
If you follow the links , you will find a number of experiments.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1410.msg22852#msg22852
Below are a number of videos with experiments.
https://youtube.com/@user9345709345
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I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.
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Just as a small point, fir needles against clothing isn’t an issue, crawling and walking on fir needles and bare skin is a completely different story
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I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.
I believe there is a video of them walking in socks from the tent to the ravine in the link if not I know one exists as I have seen it.
I don't think any of them had bare feet on the walk to the ravine.
When in a survival situation you work with what you have. Like wise, in the tent , on the slope where I assume the temperature would be colder , they would be in less dress also. Many people have survived or lived longer in the cold. If the left the tent and couldn't get to it, even if there were armed guards at the tent. The Dyatlov group would have to work with what they have. I can't imagine them standing there freezing , doing nothing. Of hands get cold but you can also get used to it. Living in such cold climates helps.
It would make a rubbish video in the dark plus we don't know if it was daylight at the time. You can see a snow hole being dug. It can be done.
Just as a small point, fir needles against clothing isn’t an issue, crawling and walking on fir needles and bare skin is a completely different story
Bare skin next to needles is better than bare skin to snow. Seriously,i wouldn't want you in a survival situation. Anyway, who was in bare skin?
Everything looks like a survival effort.
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So basically what you’re saying is there aren’t any videos that would prove it to me, although they satisfy you. Thank you for responding
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So basically what you’re saying is there aren’t any videos that would prove it to me, although they satisfy you. Thank you for responding
Nope, I am not saying anything basically. I don't know what you need proof of. I don't need a video to prove one could walk , in socks, 1.5 km in the snow , I do not need proof that a snow den can be made. These things are doable.
One's body doesn't instantly freeze.
Here's a naked guy challaging himself in the woods and snow, pushing the envelope.https://youtu.be/jyc81tIooZg
Here's an interesting story and there's a film . It's about an Icelandic sailer in the sea 4 six hours and then walking bare foot.
https://youtu.be/1-NI28jQXRI
We also know about Ernest Shackleton. The human can survive and I give these as example of extremes . There are many.
Whatever happened to the DP 9 . I believe they would have the ability to walk to the ravine, make a fire and snow hole or find a cave . I do not think this is outside of possibility in the slightest. It may not have been comfortable but not impossible.
It is a fact that you can walk in socks in the snow. It is a fact that snow caves/ holes form over streams or ravines. It is a fact that a snow hole can be dug with a stick. It is a fact that a fire can be lit in winter and snow.
There are no arguments against these facts.
However, other events may have occurred and I accept that.
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I have seen those, thank you and they do a good job, but having experience in the winter outdoors I can tell you that doing it fully dressed is nowhere near the real experience of the 9. Making a den with warm fingers in a glove, while wearing a warm jacket, warm pants ,warm socks and warm boots in broad daylight isn’t exactly recreating it in my opinion but I do understand that for other people it may be enough.
And who told you that the tourists were completely naked? Zina had shoe insoles inserted between two pairs of socks. It already protects the feet well from the cold.
The completely undressed Yuras, who were found under the cedar, did not come there undressed either. All their running items are found on the deck and on other participants in the ravine
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And who told you that the tourists were completely naked?
To be fair, tenne did not say they were completely naked.
I think tenne asks a good question about replication of the conditions. We could learn a lot from that.
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I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
The journalists of the newspaper "KP" conducted an experiment in 2013: after cutting the tent, they rushed to run down the slope in socks. Natalia Varsegova said that she was able to run only 30 meters and returned to the tent barely alive. Her opinion: in winter it is impossible to run in socks on the slope!!
(https://i.ibb.co/m87whCZ/2013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ySJ1gnv).
(https://i.ibb.co/2qrj2nH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdrhsL7)
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I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
The journalists of the newspaper "KP" conducted an experiment in 2013: after cutting the tent, they rushed to run down the slope in socks. Natalia Varsegova said that she was able to run only 30 meters and returned to the tent barely alive. Her opinion: in winter it is impossible to run in socks on the slope!!
(https://i.ibb.co/m87whCZ/2013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ySJ1gnv).
(https://i.ibb.co/2qrj2nH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdrhsL7)
Why was it impossible, what were the conditions? What tent did she cut, why was she barely alive after 30 meters? Why was she running ?
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Could you post the direct links instead of photos?
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From the text I can only get this translation.
(https://i.ibb.co/M8tLpjB/Screenshot-20230422-064000.png) (https://ibb.co/hX4vHnY)
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https://www.1tv.ru/shows/na-samom-dele/dramatichnye-momenty/ya-probovala-probezhat-po-sklonu-v-odnih-noskah-eto-nevozmozhno-zhurnalist-o-svoey-popytke-povtorit-deystviya-gruppy-dyatlova-na-samom-dele-fragment-vypuska-ot-09-12-2020
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/
https://yandex.ru/video/preview/10580222878978844898 - watch from 8 : 15
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What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.
Another one is: that it's possible to survive a night in an unheated tent on that slope, in the conditions that we think were present on that night - and you can see similar conditions in Oleg's (Олег Таймень) videos.
Not in a modern 2-layer nylon tent with -40C rated mountaineering sleeping bags, modern thermal clothing, etc. But in a single-layer canvas tent with no sleeping bags, in clothing similar to what they had. We have a pretty good inventory protocol available..
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What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.
Injuries of tourists during the collapse of a snow cave, as well as during an avalanche, can be diverse. The question is, what kind of snow cave is this, who invented it, where are the evidences of the existence of a snow cave. According to my version, the guys were killed by the military, following the order of the authorities to strip and freeze tourists to death. They were lured out of the tent by deception, undressed and barefoot, they did not run. They walked down the slope warmly dressed and shod. This version of events is the closest to the truth.
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....By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done,.................
I personally think that :
••• «...set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up...»
••• «...walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down...»
These two operations do not seem to present any difficulties for nine sporty people.
But the reconstruction is impossible because the wind speed is unknown: 3 m/s or 30 m/s ?, nobody knows.
••• «...in bare feet or stocking feet...»
After leaving the tent the hikers seem to have worn enough clothes.
But it is not clear what clothes were actually worn, because afterwards there was undressing - washing - and re-dressing
of the corpses.
See :Injuries, clothing and belongings to Dyatlov group
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=3&rbid=18461
••• «...Walk in the deep snow without skis...»
On 1 February, almost all along the way down from the tent to the cedar, the snow was probably hard, as can be seen in the photos of the rescuers at the end of February.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/11-009.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/11-006.jpg)
••• «...dig out a den using hands...»
On 1 February there was little snow, so there was almost nothing to dig up to put down the branches or twigs that characterise the Den.
I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass?.......................
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For the supporters of the criminal explanation of DPI, the re-enactment you suggest, by some kind of actors, is irrelevant because the outcome of this deadly altercation did not depend on the hikers (and for that matter neither on the temperature nor on the wind speed).
The supporters of the criminal explanation assume the presence of other people, the attackers, most of whose tracks in the snow were erased by the wind between 2 February and 26 February.
The qualification of the attackers varies according to the authors, for example:
Eduard Tumanov: outsiders.
Per Inge Oestmoen: skilled special forces operator (KGB or GRU?).
anna_pycckux: military liquidators; There is a very high probability that the liquidators were from the military of the Ivdel Gulag. The order came from the party organs.
My TOK theory: 3 hitmen, who for several logical reasons that I will detail later, are armed only with big sticks (no firearms, which is remarkable and constitutes the originality of this massacre).
The commander, (also called client, sponsor...depending on the translation) was a former NKVD official, fiercely opposed to Khrushchev's de-Stalinisation policy.
The sponsor's order was: kill all the hikers in such a way that it would not look like an accident at all, but a terrorist attack to impress the Kremlin.
So the hitmen did not stage anything on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, but that was not always enough to convince all later observers that the DPI was an ordinary massacre caused by human beings.
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Tried to light a fire in that area with bare hands using the materials that it looks like they used.
The fire was lit by the 3 attackers (at about 6 pm on 1 February) to attract the hikers to a fake aid post (under the cedar tree).
From the point of view of the 3 attackers this fire was a tactical success which allowed to separate the 9 hikers into 3 groups easier to defeat separately
1) - Kolgomorova and Slobodin were knocked out one after the other during the descent to the cedar.
Of the remaining 7 who reached the cedar:
2) - Doroshenko, Dyatlov and then Krivonischenko, who stayed near the dazzling fire to benefit from the heat, were successively isolated and thus easily defeated.
3) - The 3 remaining men (Z,K and TB), who were politically more experienced and (therefore) more distrustful, joined by Dubinina who was worried since her enigmatic setbacks in Vizhay, went to hide in the Den.
Unfortunately, the last four to survive were finally, but with difficulty, found, and their corpses, thrown into the Ravine, bear the characteristic scars of the sadism and the fury of the attackers.
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For tenne.
This the video of walking from the tent to ravine , in socks.
https://youtu.be/FAuxkkISqmI
It shows it can be done. What's interesting is the exposed rocks. This would have been difficult on ski's and heavy back packs. There will be little snow on the slope because of the wind other than changing snow drifts in the hollows. It is probably why they pitched their tent where they did on the slope. They could dig in and anchor thier ski poles deep enough to support the tent lines.
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What I would like to see proof of, is that a collapsing snow cave can break a skull.
Injuries of tourists during the collapse of a snow cave, as well as during an avalanche, can be diverse. The question is, what kind of snow cave is this, who invented it, where are the evidences of the existence of a snow cave. According to my version, the guys were killed by the military, following the order of the authorities to strip and freeze tourists to death. They were lured out of the tent by deception, undressed and barefoot, they did not run. They walked down the slope warmly dressed and shod. This version of events is the closest to the truth.
I am trying to eliminate the possibility of the skull fracture at the ravine from a snow collapse but I can't prove it as it is not my specialty.
From my own observations, I am looking at the ravine 4 in isolation.
1) The ravine 4 are under 3 plus meters of snow, as is the den location.
2) the ravine 4 are at ground level or there about , as is the den. ( The den is reported to be about 300 mm if I remember ,off the ground).
Questions I ask myself , is how did that amount of snow gather in the three weeks from February 1.
I have read there is less snow in recent years that gathers in the ravine but it is logical that snow gathers in a ravine. It is the nature of snow. It is also the nature of snow to build snow bridges over ravines, especially where water runs below.
It is a possibility that the injuries are a crush injuries from a mass of snow falling on top of the ravine 4. The chest fractures do indicate this. As for the skull fracture and deformed neck, I think it's a plausible. Since there was 9 of them it would be difficult to make a snow hole or cave that big. Two groups , one of 4 and one of 5 would be the maximum, combined with body heat to try and make snow holes ? .
If the skull fracture is on the the side where it is against hard ground / or rocks and the force comes from above , then it is a possibility.
https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik
In the link above we can get a visualization of how the ravine bodies were found.. we know that there was 3 plus meters of snow above them. From the illustration we can get an idea of the den location.
We have a snow mass. Bodies at ground level. This a a question of the chicken and egg. , Which came first.? The bodies at ground level and snow fell on top of them, or the bodies got below snow that was already there.
The reason I highlight this point is ,the snow would gather in the ravine before the Dyatlov group even started their hike.
This then raises the question , why would outsiders dig snow out of a ravine to lay 4 bodies at ground level?
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It shows it can be done.
As soon as I saw what BORZENKOV was recording, I immediately thought it was a lie! I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELIEVE BORZENKOV!! The experiment is incorrect, it doesn't look like a man is wearing socks.
(https://i.ibb.co/JCqn24H/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/GP3Q11M/1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/W5MW6PT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6wTRm1d)
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You can get a good look at his socks at 11:50
https://youtu.be/4qpJi6iNWF0
Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.
Below is the link with more details to the experiments. What was done and weather conditions. There is lots of information and debates that might answer some questions for some people.
https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/?x=read&razdel=17&tema=167&start=0#main_167
"Experiments were carried out at the scene of events: in clothes similar to Zina's clothes, he climbed from our tent at the remnants to the MP on the spur, went down the 4PL to the mouth of the 1st stream, went to the cedar, went up to the MP, dug out a perimeter of 4 × 2 × 0 with a ski, 5 meters, returned to our camp from the slope - all the adventures / body movements lasted 4.5 hours. At the exit it was -28 degrees, when returning to the camp -18 degrees, the wind on the slope is weak up to 3.6 m/s. I didn’t eat before leaving, I drank a mug of sweet tea. Blood sugar at the start - 5.6 at the finish line - 4.6."
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Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.
У Борзенкова привычка врать. Сам представь, что ты идешь в носках по каменным грядам. Носки обязательно бы сползали, закручивались, приходилось бы их поправлять. Но человек идет без проблем, не ощущая дискомфорта. ОН НИ РАЗУ НЕ НАГНУЛСЯ, ЧТОБ ПОПРАВИТЬ НОСКИ. НА НЕМ НЕ НОСКИ! Судмед экспертиза не утверждала, что ступни ребят были изранены и обморожены. Все версии с фактом бега по склону в носках - снимаем с повестки!!
Borzenkov has a habit of lying. Imagine that you are walking in socks on stone ridges. The socks would have slipped off, twisted, they would have had to be corrected. But a person walks without problems, without experiencing discomfort. HE NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! The forensic medical examination did not claim that the children's feet were wounded and frostbitten. All versions with the fact of running downhill in socks are removed from the agenda!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsW2tgUyqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsW2tgUyqo)
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Apparently the clothes are of Zina. It is based on what she was wearing. I do not think it is a lie, why bother to do so much work and travel to lie?.
У Борзенкова привычка врать. Сам представь, что ты идешь в носках по каменным грядам. Носки обязательно бы сползали, закручивались, приходилось бы их поправлять. Но человек идет без проблем, не ощущая дискомфорта. ОН НИ РАЗУ НЕ НАГНУЛСЯ, ЧТОБ ПОПРАВИТЬ НОСКИ. НА НЕМ НЕ НОСКИ! Судмед экспертиза не утверждала, что ступни ребят были изранены и обморожены. Все версии с фактом бега по склону в носках - снимаем с повестки!!
Borzenkov has a habit of lying. Imagine that you are walking in socks on stone ridges. The socks would have slipped off, twisted, they would have had to be corrected. But a person walks without problems, without experiencing discomfort. HE NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! The forensic medical examination did not claim that the children's feet were wounded and frostbitten. All versions with the fact of running downhill in socks are removed from the agenda!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsW2tgUyqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbsW2tgUyqo)
In this video, Alexander Alekseenkov walks, wearing two pairs of socks and inserting insoles between them. Everything is exactly the same as that of Zinaida Kolmogorova. Where did you spot the lies? I don't know Borzenkov, but I do know Alekseenkov. He certainly will not invent or falsify something.
В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки. Всё точно так, как у Зинаиды Колмогоровой. В каком месте вы углядели враньё ? Борзенкова я не знаю, но знаю Алексеенкова. Он точно не будет что-то придумывать или фальсифицировать.
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В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки.
In this video, Alekseyenkov is clearly not wearing socks! I repeat: socks on stone ledges certainly twisted, slipped off, got lost.
The man in the video NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! This can't be happening! He's not wearing socks, but other shoes, it's obvious.
(https://i.ibb.co/60p5HTq/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).(https://i.ibb.co/5YLD2DJ/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZDf3f1)
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The screenshot shows the forensic examination of Krivonischenko, who was found barefoot at the cedar. However, no damage to the feet, no wounds on the inner surface of the feet were found. Frostbite was also not detected.
CONCLUSION: THERE WAS NO DESCENT IN SOCKS AND BAREFOOT FROM THE TENT!!
(https://i.ibb.co/h2ZpC5W/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQnhR2c)
(https://i.ibb.co/RjYZynx/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phbGyDt)
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В этом видео Александр Алексеенков идёт, одев две пары носок и вставив между ними стельки.
In this video, Alekseyenkov is clearly not wearing socks! I repeat: socks on stone ledges certainly twisted, slipped off, got lost.
The man in the video NEVER BENT DOWN TO STRAIGHTEN HIS SOCKS! This can't be happening! He's not wearing socks, but other shoes, it's obvious.
These fantasies of yours about twisted and lost socks are no different from the fantasies of tourists bitten by gulag guard dogs. You are now slandering the researchers who are doing real experiments at the pass. You insult them by calling them liars. I repeat once again .. I don’t know Borzenkov and I can’t say anything about him. But in the video, Alexander Alekseenkov is wearing socks. He is an honest and decent person. You have no right to call him a liar. You undeservedly publicly insult people through the media. Delete this video and apologize to Alekseenkov.
Эти ваши фантазии по поводу скручивающихся и теряющихся носков ничем не отличаются от фантазий искусанных туристов собаками охраны гулага. Вы сейчас наговариваете на исследователей, которые занимаются реальными экспериментами на перевале. Вы их оскорбляете, называя лгунами. Ещё раз повторюсь.. Борзенкова я не знаю и ничего о нём сказать не могу. Но в видео идёт в носках Александр Алексеенков. Он честный и порядочный человек. У вас нет никакого права называть его лжецом. Вы незаслуженно публично оскорбляете людей через средства массовой информации. Удалите это видео и извинитесь перед Алексеенковым.
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Here is Rustems sock . It has not fallen off.
(https://i.ibb.co/5KyCzwj/Screenshot-20230426-192531.png) (https://ibb.co/vXGfrRd)
If you look at 11:50 minutes you will see the socks.
https://youtu.be/4qpJi6iNWF0
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Here is Rustems sock . It has not fallen off.
Krivonischenko socks all fell off.
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But in the video, Alexander Alekseenkov is wearing socks.
Почему ты решил, что на видео - Алексеенков? Я его не знаю и не могу утверждать. В моем видео он не упоминается.
Вопрос в том, что вы видите? Неужели так выглядят носки?
Why did you decide that Alekseyenkov was in the video? I don't know him and I can't say for sure. He is not mentioned in my video. The question is, what do you see? Do socks really look like that?
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You are now slandering the researchers who are doing real experiments at the pass. You insult them by calling them liars.
What is shown in Borzenkov's video in 2014 is not an experiment with socks. The experiment is when socks are shown before jogging on a 1.5-kilometer-long slope - and after. What were the socks and feet after running from the tent to the cedar. This is not in Borzenkov video!!
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Here is Rustems sock . It has not fallen off.
Krivonischenko socks all fell off.
How do you know if Krivonischenko socks fell off or were taken off? The video is about walking down the slope and if it's possible in socks. It is a simple experiment.
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Here's a video of 26 minutes of walking in snow ,in wool socks.
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https://youtu.be/PY0804n2M0I
Whoops, here it is walking in snow , in socks.
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the mystery is solved. The experiment with socks DOES NOT COUNT!!! Alekseyenkov himself admitted that he used trekking socks, which were invented in 1979, which helped him to walk smoothly on snow, on stone ridges, without injuring his legs, without frostbite. In the screenshots: the story of Alekseyenkov (Shura) about his sports equipment, about trekking socks, about the cost, about the functions of such socks. THE EXPERIMENT IS VERY SIMILAR TO AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR TREKKING SOCKS!!
(https://i.ibb.co/TrWj94W/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7mC8Pm).
(https://i.ibb.co/23yz7Zh/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/bLvVHWg/1979.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCQqJ0N).
(https://i.ibb.co/5h4qX5j/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s9RLpF1)
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Whoops, here it is walking in snow , in socks. /quote]
Everyone will be able to walk this simple path, and Natalia Varsegova, and even me.
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Sorry, I'm clarifying:
DURING THE EXPERIMENT, THERE WERE 2 PAIRS OF TREKKING SOCKS ON ALEKSEYENKOV. This was reported by him. The experiment is NOT COUNTED
(https://i.ibb.co/hdNGxDz/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1HzyM0).
(https://i.ibb.co/djPRc7k/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/KK9cjyp/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Yuri Yudin was troubled by the clean condition of the feet and socks of the hikers.
Link to quote below: https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes?rbid=18461
"The legs are bare, not damaged, not torn to blood (1.85 km through the snow and stones and the socks are intact!), and then so much work by the fire!"
It is obvious that Yuri Yudin wrote these lines about the deceased Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. He couldn't understand how the guys went from the tent to the cedar without shoes, without injuring their feet on sharp stones, without tearing their socks. After all, according to the official investigation, the hikers scrambled in the dark.
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I swore I'd never post here again, not until the OTT moderation has ended...
You cannot conduct an exact replication experiment using humans or you could end up with several more deaths, and the liability of that would prevent it from happening. They tried something with students a few years ago but they were all kitted out in modern insulatative materials and simply proved they could march down the mountain at night, as if it was a piece of cake. Also in 1959, from recovery photo's 3 weeks later. the snow level was such that thousands of rocks created trip incidents downhill and some of the footprints, if left by hikers and not Mansi etc, travel through those rocks. So the experiment students had it easy.
Even today, and with medics on hand and a medivac helicopter if they pushed it too far to prove something and some students fell hypothermic out there and were rushed to hospital for slow warming (rectal probes etc) and foil blankets they could still die of vital organ failure in hospital. And we don't know if, the 1959 hikers, as fit as we assume they were but not as nourished as young Russians today, had some underlying health issues such as heart and circulation problems versus fit students assessed for this task with modern medical testing including ECG, blood pressure etc. The extreme cold is still the extreme cold, and the human body just as frail, it only pushes the extreme due to the modern materials, tents, fuel stoves, heat pads, glo sticks, LED torches, satellite phones and medivac beacons it now has..
All that could be done is a detailed technical experiment using temperatures and wind index and calculate blood sugar levels versus assumed calorie intake and joules of energy expended on the distance travelled, and this following an ascent and perhaps all the young men digging out 2 tonnes of snow and all the dehydration from sweat. It would be a complex calculation to get right, but perhaps not impossible. A Uni thesis for someone.
I researched temperature difference between the inside and outside of a canvas tent and old skoolers who take twin thermometers say it is 10 degrees difference. The tent was draughty, not only holed but with a button flap and a windsock unplugged by a flue pipe and no operational stove.
I am not surprised they died of the cold, just as I instictively know nobody would be bothering them at 3000ft in the dead of night because nothing moves out there then, even the Snowy Owl operates by day.
They were dead the moment they left the tent unpreprepared - but introduce a single wood axe and some may have survived, a good fire, the least dressed downwind of the heat, hands, feet, vital organs and faces to the flame, snow and brush to shield their backs and kidneys and no climbing trees. There were at least 3 if not 4 wood axes and a saw. They didn't leave them in the labaz so took them with the stove. Whatever happened I think that was key. It can't have been windy, they didn't support the tent centre and sat inside eating and they managed to start a fire, so it was low wind index but extreme cold, exhaustion, underdressing, sweated out, and low energy after all they did.
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the mystery is solved. The experiment with socks DOES NOT COUNT!!! Alekseyenkov himself admitted that he used trekking socks, which were invented in 1979, which helped him to walk smoothly on snow, on stone ridges, without injuring his legs, without frostbite. In the screenshots: the story of Alekseyenkov (Shura) about his sports equipment, about trekking socks, about the cost, about the functions of such socks. THE EXPERIMENT IS VERY SIMILAR TO AN ADVERTISEMENT FOR TREKKING SOCKS!!
(https://i.ibb.co/TrWj94W/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7mC8Pm).
(https://i.ibb.co/23yz7Zh/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/bLvVHWg/1979.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCQqJ0N).
(https://i.ibb.co/5h4qX5j/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s9RLpF1)
Anna, could you please post links in English.
Trekking socks were not designed for walking in snow bare foot either. The trekking sock is designed for friction in the boot and longevity of the heel and ball of foot that take the most contact, It's insulation is the same as any other sock of the same weave or material. Ultimately, trekking socks are a sales gimmick, especially with the design of modern boots and their comfort. There is no mystery regarding being able to walk in socks down the slope .
I believe you are refering to the details of walking in socks. Here is an English translation below of your post Anna . ( Please observe the dates) . The video from the slope of 1079 is from 2014 not 2013 and your quote.
"01/24/2013
Experiment: 8 hours in socks on a snowy field.
The place is the edge of a huge field, ski tracks, “blizzard” tracks, deep loose snow (up to 80-90 cm if you are walking on virgin soil).
Weather - from minus 15 degrees at the beginning, to minus 19 degrees at the end. Light wind 1-2 m/s at night, intensifying to 3-4 m/s in the morning.
Clothing:
- ski cap (40g)
- fine wool. sweater (215g)
- cotton shirt with long sleeves (390g)
- polarka (475g)
- thin wool underpants (155g)
- pants (thick synthetics, 390g)
On the legs:
1) thick trekking socks (synthetics, 70g/pair)
2) loose trekking socks (synthetics, 85g/pair)
3) plain socks (cotton + synthetics, 50g/pair)
Beginning on 01/22/13 at 00.00 (more precisely, five minutes to midnight), minus 15 degrees.
1 circle - 01.50 (minus 16)
2 circle - 03.20 (minus 17)
3 circle - 04.45 (minus 17)
4 circle - 06.00 (minus 18)
5 circle - 07.15 (minus 19)
6 semicircle - 08.10 (minus 19)
For 8 hours and 15 minutes covered approximately 27 km (5.5 laps of 4.64 km + 1.5 km approach / departure along the clearing from the car to the corner of the field). The average speed is 3.3 km/h.
Was on the move all the time. I stopped for 2-3 minutes to remove the thermometer on the tree, legs at the end of the experiment, four times as needed. After the third round (4.45) I wanted to give my legs a rest. He lay down, lifted them up to move a little. I lay there for a minute and a half and felt that my toes began to freeze (the blood drained). I realized that there was no chance of rest - I got up, went to “wind” circles further. Movement is the key to leg safety. Sometimes I felt that the feet began to freeze slightly, then I increased the movement in the ankle and energetically worked with my fingers, moving on to virgin soil. It turned out that in deep, loose snow, the legs were very comfortable (the heat was clearly better preserved than when driving on dense snow). In general, I can’t say that the feet were very cold (sometimes I completely forgot about them - I walked and walked).
The normal thermal balance of the body (do not freeze - do not sweat) was easily achieved by changing the intensity of movement and moving to virgin lands.
The brushes were well warmed by squeezing / unclenching the fingers, and in the wind it turned out to be effective to warm them, making movements as if you were washing your hands.
Socks at the end of walking are not iced over. There was some snow on top. The inner ones turned out to be a little damp (I can’t say wet).
10 hours after the experiment, the body temperature was 37.0 degrees, a day later - 36.4. In the evening of the next day I ran - everything seems to be normal, I felt tired in the muscles (especially in the calves). There are no effects of cold loading."
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Yuri Yudin was troubled by the clean condition of the feet and socks of the hikers.
Link to quote below: https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes?rbid=18461
"The legs are bare, not damaged, not torn to blood (1.85 km through the snow and stones and the socks are intact!), and then so much work by the fire!"
It is obvious that Yuri Yudin wrote these lines about the deceased Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. He couldn't understand how the guys went from the tent to the cedar without shoes, without injuring their feet on sharp stones, without tearing their socks. After all, according to the official investigation, the hikers scrambled in the dark.
Yuri Yudin was speculating like the rest of us.
But he does not mention the burns and cuts on the legs of the two Yuri's as the author of your quote , speculates that he is talking about the two Yuri's.
I think the socks had burnt marks at the ceder. I also think that the quote from Yuri Yudin was taken from his own notes, where he is trying to formulate an understanding of what happened. He is not writing as a fact but jotting ideas down. Like being a detective?.
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Ziljoe, why are you overloading the forum with copies of messages?
It is already clear that a pure experiment, as close as possible to the conditions of the events at Dyatlov Pass, was conducted by journalists of the newspaper K P (Komsomolskaya Pravda). And this experiment tells us that in the weather conditions of the Middle Urals and with stone ridges and with that sports equipment and in a half-naked form - a descent down the slope of 1.5 km in socks is NOT POSSIBLE!!
Tourists did not run from the tent undressed and in socks! Their feet are not injured or frostbitten.
All versions that previously adhered to this fact are removed from the agenda!
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Anna. Copies of messages are to identify who I'm communicating with. Like wise, it gives the guest reader a narrative to not go back and forth through previous messages to read what was said before. Also, there is a distinct habit for the deletion of messages to who said what. Perhaps similar to the alleged practices by the USSR/KGB by some members regarding the case files.
Could I please have the link to this experiment by the journalists of KP newspaper.
The weather varies considerably and it has been shown by others that they can walk in the snow, in socks with no serious harm.
You have a video of someone walking down the slope in socks. We also have pictures of the Dyatlov group out side their tent doing activities in the forest. You do not freeze instantly , it is not outer space.
Why is the descent down the slope in socks not possible. What is there to stop that happening? Why would their feet have injuries when walking on snow?
What agenda are you talking about?
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Tourists did not run from the tent undressed and in socks! Their feet are not injured or frostbitten.
All versions that previously adhered to this fact are removed from the agenda!
Here is Kahn's experiment, where he easily walked 1.5 km. in socks. Kan is a real explorer, not a dreamer sitting on a couch. He was at the Dyatlov Pass six times
https://youtu.be/SiJfQvH4Djw (https://youtu.be/SiJfQvH4Djw)
In addition, he revealed the deception of the viewers of your two-minute video in four places. And claims that such deception is often present in your book, where you deceive readers:
But you Anya, again, you STATE exactly the opposite.
In total, four deceptions of the Spectator! - Isn't it too much for a two-minute video?
… And now imagine yourself in the place of the Reader, who is led by the nose over and over again.
After all, such patterns are not uncommon in your book.
Source: https://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=363&p=10#p31838
Вот эксперимент Кана, где он легко прошагал 1,5 км. в носках. Кан это настоящий исследователь, не фантазёр, сидящий на диване. Он шесть раз был на перевале Дятлова
https://youtu.be/SiJfQvH4Djw
Кроме того, он выявил обман зрителей вашего двух минутного ролика в четырёх местах. И утверждает, что подобный обман часто присутствует в вашей книге, где вы обманываете читателей:
Но ты Аня, опять же УТВЕРЖДАЕШЬ ровно обратное.
Итого, четыре обмана Зрителя! - не многовато ли для двухминутного ролика?
… А теперь представь себя на месте Читателя, которого раз за разом водят за нос.
Ведь подобные шаблоны - не редкость в твоей книге.
Источник: https://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=363&p=10#p31838
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Here is Kahn's experiment, where he easily walked 1.5 km. in socks.
The topic under discussion is "Did anyone go to this area to recreate the event?"
Alexander Koshkin's experiment, but I can't give it as an example, because a city park and warm clothes do not meet the conditions of a rocky mountain slope. On a flat surface, in a modern warm jacket, in the absence of a hurricane wind, a rested, well-fed person will really be able to walk in socks in the snow. Alexander commands respect for his athletic form, but he himself admitted that his walking in socks is not an experiment.
I remind you that the well-known, authoritative tourist Ptitsyn confidently says that it is IMPOSSIBLE to walk half-naked in socks down the slope.
The experiment of KP journalists, which is closest to the conditions, is given by me as an example and all links are given. В приведенном скриншоте Н Варсегова говорить, что бежать в носках по перевалу Дятлова - невозможно.
My book is a separate topic, I am ready to discuss it with pleasure.
In the screenshot: N. Varsegova claims that it is impossible to run in socks in winter along the Dyatlov Pass
(https://i.ibb.co/H2wgVrW/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPx32F0)
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очень известный, опытный, авторитетный походник ПТИЦИН ГА утрерждает: НЕЛЬЗЯ В ТЕХ УСЛОВИЯХ ПРОЙТИ !,5 км в носках по склону.
A very well-known, experienced, authoritative tourist G.A. PTITSIN says: IN SUCH CONDITIONS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to WALK 1.5 km in socks on the slope. Ptitsyn G A hiker, master of sports in tourism, honored tourist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Rt-WCtzkE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Rt-WCtzkE)
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Could I please have the link to this experiment by the journalists of KP newspaper.
you have already asked for links and I have provided them. See this section.
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Could I please have the link to this experiment by the journalists of KP newspaper.
you have already asked for links and I have provided them. See this section.
Dear Anna,
Your links and photos are confused to the English reader. Photos with coloured lines next to Russian text means nothing . The video you post has no subtitles for me . It could be anyone, saying anything . I also note that there are only 4 comments, which I can translate. Little is said in these comments. For all I know they could be talking about how to make tea. Milk before or after the teabag is put in the water?
I do not see this link to the journalists that could walk only 30 meters and what do you mean when you say half naked?
You have been given a video of a person walking down the slope in socks plus several other videos of people walking in snow, wearing socks. Where is the problem?
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Some of the socks were holed at autopsy, just as clothing was worn out and well used. But to me this is a sideshow, irrelevant.
We do not know for certain that the footprints were made by the hikers, Teddy commissioned an expert opinion who said they were "probably" made by shod feet, and one print clearly has a heel to it.
Someone was there to turn bodies after death, which is subzero conditions can mean 3 days for rigor mortis to set in. I can't see assassins returning to turn bodies but I can see Mansi inspecting the tent and finding bodies and understandably worrying they'd be blamed so playing it like they were never there. This then explains a lot of other things and their 'alibi' of one man out there, the rest ill at home, after perhaps after reading the diaries mentioning following a recent deerhunters tracks (singular or plurality unclear) they placed an elder out there who'd resist interrogation.
Had the hikers walked down the mountain at night with a snow level exposing all those rocks, armed with rudimentary Chinese flashlights and possibly a dynamo torch they had to continually press then I'd expect a number of injuries from trip incidents and rolls into rocks. So it is possible to assume the snow level was at that time even, easy to walk on, and subsequently, after they died the hurricane scoured the snow off the mountain and drifted it down to the ravine.
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You have been given a video of a person walking down the slope in socks plus several other videos of people walking in snow, wearing socks. Where is the problem?
The problem is you. You can not distinguish in any way the ultra-modern trekking socks from the usual ones, and the rocky, harsh slope of the Dyatlov Pass from the park for walking.
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You have been given a video of a person walking down the slope in socks plus several other videos of people walking in snow, wearing socks. Where is the problem?
The problem is you. You can not distinguish in any way the ultra-modern trekking socks from the usual ones, and the rocky, harsh slope of the Dyatlov Pass from the park for walking.
I have many socks from many years. They all basically serve the same purpose which is to cover my feet. You have a video of a man walking in socks down the slope at the actual location. We can see that there are rocks but plenty of space to maneuver between them.
However, I wouldn't like to tackle the slope with skis and a heavy backpack in poor visibility.
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I am curious if anybody knows about an expedition to re-create what happened at the pass? By that I mean set up a tent in the area it was supposed to be set up, walk down to where they were supposed to have walked down in bare feet or stocking feet to see if it can be done, although of course not to the point of getting frostbite
The journalists of the newspaper "KP" conducted an experiment in 2013: after cutting the tent, they rushed to run down the slope in socks. Natalia Varsegova said that she was able to run only 30 meters and returned to the tent barely alive. Her opinion: in winter it is impossible to run in socks on the slope!!
(https://i.ibb.co/m87whCZ/2013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ySJ1gnv).
(https://i.ibb.co/2qrj2nH/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdrhsL7)
Anna, I hope you don't mind the reposting of this post. I am confused , you say the Natalia Varsegova was doing an experiment.
From the full dialogue it would seem they were making a film and these were just actors? The reason she only went 30 meters is because that is all she had to do for the director, not because she was about to freeze to death. She returned to the tent for a second take as their facial expressions were not what the director wanted.Natalia is writing as a journalist, journalists need income.
I am sitting in a tent (the same as that of the Dyatlovites) on the slope of Mount Kholat-Chakhl. The wind is free to walk in the tent, blowing it from all sides. The bottom is covered with warm soldier blankets, quilted jackets. I am wearing a thick sweater, windbreaker, woolen ski pants, warm tights, two pairs of woolen socks, thermal underwear. Nearby - the guys-rescuers. They are also in the form of Dyatlovites.
I'm shaking from the cold. Teeth convulsively tap out Morse code. Boiling water, which we generously pour from a thermos into camping mugs, does not save either.
At the command of the operators, we cut the tent and jump out of it with undisguised joy. Now everything will be over, and instead of quilted jackets, we will put on warm modern overalls. And, most importantly, keep warm.
- Stop! - the menacing voice of director Varsegov sounds. - What is the joy on your faces?! You are scared! Show horror! Let's go again!
... Fortunately, the second double was the last. We feigned panic as best we could and rushed down the slope. Like Dyatlovites. In the same socks.
How endless those 30 meters seemed to me then, which I ran on a hard crust! As if you are stepping on the snow with wounded feet, and small prickly snowflakes mercilessly dig into them. The ascent to the tent was unhurried, I no longer felt my numb legs.
They dressed me in four hands. Someone carefully poured vodka into the lid from under the thermos. To be honest, it doesn't make any sense. It seems to me that after a week I still can't get warm. Yes, and she managed to frostbite her hands so that the skin on the fingertips lost sensitivity.
Could the Dyatlovites walk one and a half kilometers in the same socks? I do not believe in this. Yes, they were much more resilient and stronger in spirit. And I can even admit that they, driven by terrible fear and adrenaline, walked several hundred meters, but not one and a half thousand. Even the strongest guys would have fallen halfway, wasting their last strength in the cold and wind.
Читайте на WWW.KP.RU: https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/
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Ziljoe yes, it was an expedition to make a documentary that would help to understand the cause of the death of tourists. Journalist Varsegov monitored the purity of the experiment.
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I believe the documentary was made in 2013.
From following the links I found this quote which is mildly interesting.
https://sobesednik.ru/obshchestvo/20130410-o-chem-molchat-kamni-perevala-dyatlova
The funeral of the guys in Sverdlovsk took place from March to May. The case was closed on May 28 with a strange conclusion that the reason for the death of the tourist group "was an elemental force, which people were not able to overcome" ...
Due to translation and possibly perpetual sensational journalism to sell the story, the word "elemental" may be a better translation to English from russian at least.
Searching the definition for elemental force ,we get :literary. showing the strong power of nature.
This interpretation is less vague and seems like the conclusion to the case was actually a strong force of nature that the group couldn't overcome.
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Zinaida Kolmogorova was wearing not even two, but three pairs of socks.
Analysis of Zina Kolmogorova's clothes.
On the head:
1. Red wool cap tied at the chin with a bow.
2. A blue woolen knitted cap attached to the hair with a hairpin.
Above waist:
1. Blue wool sweater, turned inside out.
2. Checked cotton shirt with long sleeves and one left pocket.
3. Under the cowboy shirt, on the left half of the chest - a military-style protective mask.
4. Vigoniy light red sweater with blue transverse stripes, dressed inside out.
5. Blue jersey with long sleeves.
6. Black satin bra.
Below the waist.
1. Black flannelette ski pants with side zips.
2. Blue cotton sweatpants with side fasteners and elastic at the bottom.
3. Blue women's knitted leggings with fleece.
4. Ladies' black cotton leotard with elastic.
5. Black cotton briefs - swimming trunks.
On foot
1. Brown wool socks with fur insoles.
2. Blue vigon socks.
3. Brown Vignon Socks.
Zina's clothes found in the tent.
1. Blue herringbone ski cap with white vertical stripes
2. Red wool scarf
3. Ladies padded jacket with fur collar and hood
4. Green canvas windbreaker
5. Blue wool mittens
6. Black fur mittens trimmed with black cotton material
7. Blue cotton mittens
8. Old woolen dark brown mittens trimmed with green tarpaulin
9. Brown Vigon socks
10. Woolen white socks lined with green tarpaulin
11. Blue, with elastic bands, boot covers
12. New cloth house slippers, on the sole, on the outside, herringbone pattern.
Conclusion:
1. In addition to running clothes, Zinaida Kolmogorova is wearing clothes that she changed into in the parking lot. Except for the bodysuit.
2. So many clothes are worn for sleeping when the stove is not heated at night. If the stove is heated, then it will be hot in these clothes. Or you need to settle down for the night at the farthest wall of the tent.
3. This amount of clothing cannot be used for movement on a running day. There will be heavy sweating
4. In so many clothes it is impossible to die from the cold, if you move a little, warming up .. You can stretch for three or four days ..
5. If in fact there were not two, but three pairs of socks, also with fur insoles, then this is much warmer than being in boots and one pair of socks. But the socks will be a little damp ..
(you still need to figure out what vigonian socks and woolen socks with fur insoles of 1059 are)
(https://i.ibb.co/m59xDsn/Screenshot-96.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2y1zDh)
(https://i.ibb.co/m59xDsn/Screenshot-96.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B2y1zDh)
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I believe the documentary was made in 2013.
From following the links I found this quote which is mildly interesting.
https://sobesednik.ru/obshchestvo/20130410-o-chem-molchat-kamni-perevala-dyatlova
The funeral of the guys in Sverdlovsk took place from March to May. The case was closed on May 28 with a strange conclusion that the reason for the death of the tourist group "was an elemental force, which people were not able to overcome" ...
Due to translation and possibly perpetual sensational journalism to sell the story, the word "elemental" may be a better translation to English from russian at least.
Searching the definition for elemental force ,we get :literary. showing the strong power of nature.
This interpretation is less vague and seems like the conclusion to the case was actually a strong force of nature that the group couldn't overcome.
What force of nature could be that professionally sane 9 young people walking for miles and suddenly killing them in 3 different places? There is no such force of nature! Only a conscious and rational power can do this! In other words, the young people faced a force they could not resist!!! And they fled to the forest first, but then they were attacked and died in the forest as well.
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A person can walk 5-10 km in the forest with bare feet even at minus 20 degrees. It can go even longer with socks. I have a very interesting question in my mind: "Why didn't the youngsters run farther away from the unknown power???" There could be several reasons for this. 1. Unknown power had the ability to fly!!! It would be pointless to run away. 2. Living supplies were in the tent. Running further away was death!!! 3. Their energy was gone. They couldn't go any farther. 4. They were caught before they could go any farther
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I also think that the discussion about socks is somewhat of a distraction... If they got to where they were found, but not just in socks, who returned their boots to the tent, and why?
On the other hand, the problem with socks in powder snow, is that the snow the ends up on the top of the foot melts due to body heat. Then the sock is wet. And then your feet are losing heat much more quickly and actually the situation is worse than going bare feet. At least this is according to my experience, not walking around in socks, but with socks and a boot, which doesn't actually make much difference if it's not completely watertight. But apparently, the person in Ziljoe's video didn't experience this problem somehow..
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I think the socks cause the insulation. It keeps the heat in by not letting it get to the surface of the sock.
Oddly enough, running in socks and snow seems to be a thing in Finland. Having glanced the comment section in the video it seems to be done by a few people around the world.
https://youtu.be/JBONHi2zoJ0
Don't shoot me , I'm just the messenger. I think we can tick the box that it's not impossible to walk down the slope in socks.unless it's a comedy sketch?
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It even has a name ! villasukkajuoksu.
Everyday is a school day.....
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A person can walk 5-10 km in the forest with bare feet even at minus 20 degrees. It can go even longer with socks. I have a very interesting question in my mind: "Why didn't the youngsters run farther away from the unknown power???" There could be several reasons for this. 1. Unknown power had the ability to fly!!! It would be pointless to run away. 2. Living supplies were in the tent. Running further away was death!!! 3. Their energy was gone. They couldn't go any farther. 4. They were caught before they could go any farther
I lean towards they couldn't stay at the tent for some reason that would involve something natural /accidental.
I would go with your number two. Supplies were in the tent and they just had to survive and going further would be certain death.
I don't think they could go further because of the terrain in the forest . Ravines, snow drifts etc.
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This is the documentary made in 2013 that Anna's links to.
https://youtu.be/l4RV-eAv3bw
Very similar to western documentaries, tension music, repeating clips etc. The clips of the actors seems to be just that. Clips for visual effect. The tent looks like it's the wrong weave of canvas to me. Far too light.
Anyway, jumps about a lot with the editing but has some interesting points. Enjoy.