August 15, 2022, 02:41:51 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Simplest Explanation is Often the Best  (Read 7948 times)

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October 30, 2020, 10:28:48 AM
Reply #30
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Per Inge Oestmoen


I believe an occurrence such as infrasound or toxic fume from an exploded missile led to confused, panicked thinking. As always, just an educated guess.


1. No infrasound is demonstrated to influence nine humans, in particular nine resourceful human beings, the same way. The same can be said for toxic fumes, and neither sound nor fumes could have prevented the students from returning to the tent. 

2. Most importantly: The theory that some non-human influence cannot explain the injuries, which were all strongly indicative and consistent with human attack. One by one, the injuries can only be explained by human involvement.
 

November 01, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
Reply #31
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.


Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.


There is plenty to ponder over some of the injuries  !  ?  Missing Eyes and Tongue etc etc etc etc.  Sequence of events do not suggest other Humans involvement.


Missing eyes and missing tongue is the likely result of natural decomposition and/or the involvement of some small scavengers. It is extremely unlikely that these damages happened at the time of death.

The sequence of events and all the injuries are consistent with attack by professional human killers.

There is no Evidence to suggest that the missing eyes and tongue were caused by Decomposition or the involvement of some small scavengers. There is no exact time scale.
DB
 

November 22, 2020, 07:24:47 AM
Reply #32

eurocentric

Guest
There are some general observations I'd like to make:

1) In disasters like this, human fault is usually the cause.

A) I think a fight occurred outside the tent, probably between Dyatlov and the army veteran (older guy, stranger to the group), which turned extremely violent, using ice picks, etc. This could account for head trauma suffered by one member.

B) If you read what is known of the veteran, he experienced some intense stuff during WW2. A combInation of PTSD, and the indignation of following a kid who lost his way became expressed in a rage. They were all tired, lost, and anxious.

C) It's easy for me to imagine the 2 men running around the tent, perhaps with another member trying to intervene, shouting threats and cursing. In the darkness and ice, they fell onto the tent, which caused the members inside to cut their way out of the tent. Some made their way downhill where they had previously seen forest before nightfall. They made sure to take matches to make a fire to keep warm, thinking they would return either later that night, or in the morning. I think there were 2 groups; one led by Dyatlov which went first, then a 2nd group of 3 or 4 who stayed behind to calm the raging vet.

D) The first group arrived at the cedar and could not find dry wood on the ground, so they climbed trees to break off dry branches. Cedars, like junipers are potential life-savers in this regard. Eventually, they could not sustain the effort of obtaining fuel, and one-by-one they began to freeze.

E) Meanwhile, the 2nd group made their way toward the light of the fire. They had calmed the veteran, and meant to coax back the others. When they arrived, they were overcome with the disaster unfolding.

F) The survivors stripped the clothes of the dead. Half determined that they would take those who could not move to the ravine, where they failed to make a fire an ice cave, and an insulating mat from branches. They all froze to death. The other half tried to make it back to the tent to bring back life-saving means...they froze to death as well.

2) The injuries:

A) Chest and rib injuries were caused by chest compressions during CPR attempts.

B) Bloody teeth and lips were caused by mouth-to-mouth attempts at CPR.

C) Missing eyes, tongue, and lips were caused by scavanging birds or mammals, or perhaps water.
D) Burns were caused by simply trying to feel the warmth of the fire through freezing tissue. In desperation, they got too close, not being able to feel they were burning themselves.

E) There were injuries to extremities consistent with climbing trees.

3) Notes:

A) The role of the veteran cannot be overestimated; he was the one not on the same wavelength as the others.

B) Photos taken from the cameras suggest who befriended, and formed a clique with the veteran.

C) Moonrise did not occur until much later in the night...it was pitch dark. This is why the notion of them climbing trees to see their surroundings makes no sense.

D) You can source Russian videos on youtube, recreating the journey from the tent to the cedar under similar snow and temperature conditions (during daylight). Socks stayed dry, and even with marginal clothes, they made the walk relatively easily and comfortably. Without adequate fire, though, the Dyatlov group were doomed.

E) Much of my theory is informed by my extensive time trekking in the wilderness. I have been too hot, too cold, too wet, out of food and water, and very lucky. Things can turn badly very quickly.

F) I realize I haven"t commented on every perceived anomaly, but nothing really stood out as inexplicable.

G) The exact causes and motivations will never be known.


I agree with the premise that simplest is best. Logic, probability and reason, matched to the known circumstantial evidence, and the precedence of the deaths of other humans in subzero temperatures. Put all that in the computer and see what it finds, rather than introducing fanciful theories of aliens, yetis and so on for which there has never been any empirical evidence, or even clear photo's in a world which now has 2 billion camera phones.

There was certainly potential conflict in the group, Lyuda seemed to be suffering from depression and wasn't pulling her weight, and there was a complicated tryst of ex love/hoping for reunion between Yuri D and Zina, and Igor who showed no body language bond with her in any of the hiking photo's yet still carried her photo in his notebook, and both men will have witnessed how both women were all over the engaging geologist Yuri Yudin when he left, so it must have been complicated, the sleeping arrangements, in that cosy tent. 

I completely agree that the flail chests were likely due to resus compressions, since they are not random enough to be the result of an accident or assault. Both Lyuda and Semyon's right sides had 4 + 4 fractures to the same ribs, the very ones non-randomly fractured in resus. Break the sternal area and continue with compressions and the stress will radiate out to where the rib bends at the sides and break it there too.

The only difference between the two was Lyuda also had a single set of 6 (bilateral) fractures down her left side. Where a person only has side fractures it's usually due to a fall, central ones alone due to impact or pressure. So two events likely caused her injuries.

Any theory has to tick every box or it's 'leaky'. The idea of a fight at the tent, or even someone falling through the canvas, all these variables, sounds fine, but it does not explain why they left without what they needed to survive, not just clothing and footwear in some cases, but none of the 9 people thought to take one of the 4 axes when planning to head to woods and start a fire. That single omission killed them all.

If the knuckle injuries were due to a fight whose faces did they connect with, where are the injuries, there's some scuffs and grazed cheeks on the autopsies for some, but nothing really substantial enough to correspond to 7 damaged fists, no swollen eyes, bust lips and eyebrows. Was the pint-sized Zina really a young Rosa Klebb character, fighting like a man, and were 3 of them throwing punches equally with both hands?

Tellingly the final 3 on the pass were the only ones with the knuckle injuries to both hands. Yuri K had injuries to one hand. Nobody else had knuckle injuries. An alternative explanation, in a fight with Mother Nature, is the final 3 would inevitably be crawling up the pass at the end. Imagine continually plunging your fingers into something that is either very hot or very cold, but you must travel across. You'd either clench your fists or perhaps walk on the 'heels' of your palms, in this case to avoid frostbite after you feel your fingers starting to go numb. Likewise Igor had injuries to his knees, unique to him, but he had no shoes, so might move at times on his knees to protect his numbing toes.

No point returning to the tent if you have frostbite to your digits, you're not opening food to eat, you're not repairing the tent, you're not packing things away, you're not cutting wood to make it through the next night, you're only delaying your demise.

We know from the skin in his mouth that Yuri K bit into his hand, which likely would be to stay awake, when slipping towards hypothermic coma. His body would shut down blood supply to his extremities, to the nerve endings in his hand, explaining why they go numb with cold, so he didn't feel it. His knuckle injury may have been if he struck something to try to jolt himself awake, especially if Yuri D died before him and he witnessed that.


« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 07:41:16 AM by eurocentric »
 

November 23, 2020, 04:57:07 PM
Reply #33
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Re eurocentric. 

[[ rather than introducing fanciful theories of aliens, yetis and so on for which there has never been any empirical evidence, or even clear photo's in a world which now has 2 billion camera phones. ]]

Actually there have been many cases of UFO caught on Cameras. The Military of many Countries have Classified Documents and Photos and Videos. There have been many Photos and Videos taken by members of the public. And countless reports of UFO activity going back a very long time.
DB
 

November 24, 2020, 03:25:39 AM
Reply #34
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Nigel Evans


There are even youtube videos of ufo's landing and bipedal creatures walking around. But as technology increases the chances of photographing a real event it also increases the ability to produce fakes.

But fair to say that if the DPI was repeated in modern times there could be some interesting smartphone footage :).
 

November 24, 2020, 01:55:24 PM
Reply #35
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There are even youtube videos of ufo's landing and bipedal creatures walking around. But as technology increases the chances of photographing a real event it also increases the ability to produce fakes.

But fair to say that if the DPI was repeated in modern times there could be some interesting smartphone footage :).

I often wonder if that would be the case aka smartphones capturing a modern DPI incident. Maybe these incidents only happen when no one is expecting them and therefore not ready to get a clear shot. Also many of the UFO encounters happen in unexpected places and usually remote ones.
DB
 

November 28, 2020, 08:01:36 AM
Reply #36

eurocentric

Guest
There's never been any definitive evidence, nothing widely accepted as proof, that intelligent life has ever visited this planet. This is why the entire global scientific community gets excited over the prospect of finding water on another planet or moon in our solar system, because that may mean other lifeforms, even if only microbial, and then "we are not alone".

While it's statistically accepted that there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, such is the number of suitable exoplanets, it's not accepted that they would have a way of getting here within any organic creature's lifetime, not unless they could exceed the speed of light, so that wormholes have to be theorised to fast track their journey by bending space and time.

A man-made object, the Voyager spacecraft, is now outside the solar system, travelling as fast as any spacecraft humans ever devised, yet it will still take it 40,000 years to reach the nearest star .

When you have a mystery such as the DPI it's not useful to introduce another mystery in order to explain it, you're very unlikely to ever solve it if you do. It'd be like me losing my keys and because I cannot accept the simplistic explanation I tell myself the pixies had taken them. It wouldn't be a credible explanation, even if others said the same thing of their missing keys, and it wouldn't serve to help me find mine.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 11:06:11 AM by eurocentric »
 

November 28, 2020, 03:41:27 PM
Reply #37
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There's never been any definitive evidence, nothing widely accepted as proof, that intelligent life has ever visited this planet. This is why the entire global scientific community gets excited over the prospect of finding water on another planet or moon in our solar system, because that may mean other lifeforms, even if only microbial, and then "we are not alone".

While it's statistically accepted that there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, such is the number of suitable exoplanets, it's not accepted that they would have a way of getting here within any organic creature's lifetime, not unless they could exceed the speed of light, so that wormholes have to be theorised to fast track their journey by bending space and time.

A man-made object, the Voyager spacecraft, is now outside the solar system, travelling as fast as any spacecraft humans ever devised, yet it will still take it 40,000 years to reach the nearest star .

When you have a mystery such as the DPI it's not useful to introduce another mystery in order to explain it, you're very unlikely to ever solve it if you do. It'd be like me losing my keys and because I cannot accept the simplistic explanation I tell myself the pixies had taken them. It wouldn't be a credible explanation, even if others said the same thing of their missing keys, and it wouldn't serve to help me find mine.

But having no definitive evidence doesnt rule out the possibility of Extraterestrial involvement. Its a very big Universe.
DB
 

November 29, 2020, 04:26:46 AM
Reply #38
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Nigel Evans


There's never been any definitive evidence, nothing widely accepted as proof, that intelligent life has ever visited this planet. This is why the entire global scientific community gets excited over the prospect of finding water on another planet or moon in our solar system, because that may mean other lifeforms, even if only microbial, and then "we are not alone".

While it's statistically accepted that there must be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, such is the number of suitable exoplanets, it's not accepted that they would have a way of getting here within any organic creature's lifetime, not unless they could exceed the speed of light, so that wormholes have to be theorised to fast track their journey by bending space and time.

A man-made object, the Voyager spacecraft, is now outside the solar system, travelling as fast as any spacecraft humans ever devised, yet it will still take it 40,000 years to reach the nearest star .

When you have a mystery such as the DPI it's not useful to introduce another mystery in order to explain it, you're very unlikely to ever solve it if you do. It'd be like me losing my keys and because I cannot accept the simplistic explanation I tell myself the pixies had taken them. It wouldn't be a credible explanation, even if others said the same thing of their missing keys, and it wouldn't serve to help me find mine.


Hey the "Pixie theory for the DPI" i like it!


More seriously ball lightning is a well documented phenomenon and there are reports of "heat rays" emanating from it. As for aliens well there are a lot of eye witness reports of visitation but never any evidence (or hardly any). But there's no lack of evidence wrt cattle mutilations. These are subjects that need more research. Ditto crop circles.