September 17, 2021, 11:26:37 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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I find it odd that the group didn't even seem to think that taking a flare was important.  Does anyone remember reading about any of these groups at the time discussing ways to contact the "outside world" in the event of an emergency situation?
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General Discussion / Re: Flashlight on top of tent
« Last post by Manti on Today at 05:24:55 AM »
Yes, that could be it.
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General Discussion / Re: Flashlight on top of tent
« Last post by Игорь Б. on September 16, 2021, 07:35:12 PM »
What force can tear down one half...
Эта сила - девять человек, вскочившие на ноги в палатке высотой 120 см. и отпрянувшие назад от входа. Лыжные палки, подпиравшие центральную часть и задний торец палатки упали.

P.S. Без печки центр палатки поддерживался лыжной палкой:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=98184
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General Discussion / Re: Flashlight on top of tent
« Last post by Manti on September 16, 2021, 03:12:45 PM »
A flashlight on top of the tent rules out katabatic wind, and meteorite explosion shockwaves. Unless.. it was placed there later.

But there were no other traces in the area, apart from the footprints leading down from the tent, so unless it was dropped onto the tent from a helicopter... the Dyatlovites must have left it there.

However.. another inconsistent thing is that one half of the tent has collapsed and the rope torn, so there had to be some strong force acting on that half of the tent. Was the flashlight found on the other half? What force can tear down one half but leave a flashlight in place on the other?

So based on this, the Dyatlov group must have left the flashlight on the tent but after the tent has already half-collapsed.

Another possibility I would consider is that multiple searchers have found the tent independently and the first of them have left the flashlight.
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General Discussion / Is a trench necessary for camping on the slope? Why dig a trench?
« Last post by Manti on September 16, 2021, 03:02:06 PM »
From their last photos, we know they dug a trench.
However, was the tent even found in a trench? From the search photos, it doesn't seem so but hard to tell.
I have read on a different site that a searcher said a trench was found next to the tent but can't find that testimony in the case files...
What could be the purpose of digging one? Starting a campfire perhaps?
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                           Reply #15
..........................
This is an underhanded tactic from the science field that I have sadly seen too many times. They write extremely technical, usually formula-heavy articles that are extremely hard for a layman to read. I sometimes wonder how many people start to read the article, find themselves in a bewildering forest of technobabble where they can’t even tell what point the paragraph is trying to make, and finally give up and decide that the people must know what they’re talking about because they’re super smart, and they did all those experiments, and it’s based on a computer model. Computers are never wrong. Nobody ever seems to be suspicious that the people writing the article are counting on that, because their technical jargon, computer models, and pages of of math equation are hiding several major problems that can be spotted with good, old-fashioned common sense once the scientific and intellectual veneer is pushed aside.
......................................


Very good observation ! That is the example of the Gaume & Puzrin article, which is certainly correct and accurate, but is useless for explaining the main official documents and reports currently available on the DPI.


°°°°

                           Reply #24
No, the injuries are not what can be expected from an avalanche.

The damaging of rib cages and pointed crushing of  skulls seen in Slobodin and Thibeaux-Brignolle are consistent with injuries we see when people are killed by skilled close combat specialists. An avalanche would unlikely crush skulls and rib cages without damaging the limbs. The fracture pattern on the skull of Thibeaux-Brignolle immediately strikes one as having the shape of a rifle butt, and the fact that Dubinina and Zolotaryov had damaged rib cages with no dislocations or fractures of the limbs makes it pretty safe to exclude the avalanche and snow slad theories. Kolevatov's crushed larynx also is far from what one would find if heavy snow had caused the damage, and I myself have learned the technique in jiu jitsu. I also have learned that a trained fighting specialist very easily can break the rib cage of victims with forceful elbow strikes, and this technique leads to major internal bleeding, shock and death.

It is interesting that Zolotaryov and Dubinina, but not the two others found at the same place, had crushed rib cages. A probable explanation is that since the group almost certainly was attacked by professional killers, these professionals were grouped in three and three. One group took Zolotaryov and Dubinina, while another expedited Thibeaux-Brignolle and Kolevatov. Different methods were used, according to the situation and the resistance the hikers put up.
..........................

From the "HOW" part of the TOK theory:

A single group of three attackers, who are not trained in the subtleties of the art of jiu jitsu, but who are able to hit hard and coordinate their strikes in the darkness while trying to isolate each hiker.

No noisy firearms but blunt objects - big sticks wrapped in rags to silently stun.

 •  The free process, very much in use in the Gulag camps since before 1929, is to immobilise the victim by knocking him out and then simply let him die of cold, which can take a long time depending on the temperature.

 •  To push in the chests: use of the "trampoline principle" :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampolining
A 100kg striker jumps 1 metre, feet together, onto Dubinina or Zolotaryov ---> 1000 joules
Rebound of the same striker at the same height ---> 1000 joules
So an impact of 2000 joules, spread over the width of the two feet of the attacker (20 - 25 centimetres), which is very sufficient

 •   To excise the eyes and the tongue: small knife or better still a solid small spoon whose edges have been made sharp with a grinding stone or a file.

TOK theory = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr =  murder or relentless Altercation on the pass

An unusual and short summary of TOK theory by Anatoliy Stepochkin who says he knows what happened on Dyatlov Pass.
https://dyatlovpass.com/dmitriy-borisov-2019-02-12

«...[/- in Vizhay the -\] Shamans [/- VIP sponsors worried and angry, hired -\] hunters ....[/-  mercenary attackers who -\] tracked them down. And in the middle of the night, when they fell asleep, the shamans [/- attackers -\] cut the tarp and launched some kind of dope inside. Hunters [/- attackers -\] surrounded the tent. And when the hikers jumped out, we killed them all. They were 9 or 10....»



°°°°

Igor B has the tremendous quality of proposing a complete and detailed explanation of the DPI.
To be able to judge Igor B theory correctly, you should read the interesting forum :

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php

Unfortunately, it is long to read because there are 110 pages of 20 posts which makes about 2200 posts !
It is entirely in Russian (except for the pictures) and it is very difficult for me (despite the translation software) because I do not know Russian.

 ••• Leaving the tent without the necessary equipment and suddenly making the air inside the tent unbreathable
===>   arrival of a wolverine

The wolverine is perhaps one of the least studied large carnivores in the world. Many people do not know that Wolverine has exactly the same chemical weapons as the skunk...»[/i]

See for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_(weapon)


 ••• For the four of the Den

                           Reply #31
I agree with your observations winterleia.
......................
The ravine 4 injuries are explained well by Igor b. I am happy with his observations and reasoning. If it was a collapse of a snow bridge/cave they wouldn't be able to dig there way out, nor could anyone that was standing outside of the collapse dig them out. The nature of the snow would be like concrete. Maybe some of the others tried but had to give up.
................
It is plausible....
If the ravine 4 did use a naturally formed snow cave and it did collapse on top of them , there is a lot of evidence to explain their injuries. This includes broken ribs and fractures, the nature of the fractures , lack of frostbite compared to the other 5 along with other known differences in the autopsy.



 ••• For Kolgomorova, Dyatlov and Doroshenko's injuries, Krivonishenko's burns and crushing of skulls seen in Slobodin and Thibeaux-Brignolle Igor B is more questionable and less convincing.

Perhaps we could try to consult Eduard Tumanov later  ?? .


 ••• I notice that the Igor B theory as well as the TOK theory are consolidated by the meteorological part of the "Lupos theory", i.e. the sudden arrival in the night of a snow storm  --->  wind = 35 m/s and temperature = - 50 °C.

    Dyatlov Pass Forum > Theories Discussion > Catabatic Wind - Acute Stress Reaction - Cold Air Drops
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=542.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=542.msg7927#msg7927

https://www.magentacloud.de/lnk/5PMYFi3t


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General Discussion / Re: Flashlight on top of tent
« Last post by Игорь Б. on September 14, 2021, 09:45:22 PM »
Other explanations?
Фонарик был просто потерян при выбегании из палатки. Как и подсвечник, например.
Только фонарик нашли в 1959 году, а подсвечник в 2013. Если бы было наоборот, то получилось бы, что туристы выбегали из палатки со свечкой в руках.

Все находки на месте палатки в 2013 году:
https://disk.yandex.ru/a/bIMPyewW3VmKXn

Was there not the odd observation that it was found on top of a significant amount of snow?

Ничего удивительного:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=65877
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Semyon Zolotaryov / Re: Could Zolotaryov be a saboteur?
« Last post by Игорь Б. on September 13, 2021, 09:10:03 PM »

So how do you explain Slobodin's skull fracture, Krivonishenko's leg burns, the state of Kolgomorova's fists....etc?
Ответы на эти вопросы есть в "Ответах на все вопросы...":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407

Трещина черепа Слободина посмертная:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90633
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=108717

Ожог ноги Кривонищенко получил у костра, когда лежал на животе:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=59955
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=95337

Ссадины на руках при замерзании - обычное дело:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=95223
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90276
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Semyon Zolotaryov / Re: Could Zolotaryov be a saboteur?
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on September 13, 2021, 03:49:33 PM »
               Reply #9
This demonstrates that he could not be seized by panic and that in the face of any danger he reacted rationally and, as is said, "without undue haste".
Жаль, что во Франции нет скунсов. Хорошо бы завесть.
I wish there were skunks in France. It would be nice to have one.

°°°°
In the section "Could Zolotaryov be a saboteur?" topic 734.0, I commented, in response to Jacques-Emile, on what is known about Zolotaryov's military life during the Great Patriotic War and the subsequent effects this might have had on his personality and his behaviour in civilian life.

To discuss the theory that " a wolverine might have stunk up the tent and the hikers would have gone down to wait for the tent to air out", I would suggest that we go to the section that is set up for that purpose, i.e. "Theories Discussion > Wolverine > Wolverine", topic=390.0.

I agree with your explanation that a wolverine suddenly made the air inside the tent unbreathable and forced all the hikers to rush out of the tent.

The wolverine is a bold and aggressive animal, which is not afraid of anything. A wolverine could smell the food of the hikers from a distance and was able to get inside the tent.

I did not fully read on " http://1723.ru/ " (thanks to the automatic translator DeepL) your explanations with the hard snow cave and its collapse which would have crushed the 4 of the Den: Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Tibo, Kolevatov.

I also agree that a good explanatory theory of DPI must be able to reconstruct in a plausible way almost everything that is known about it.

So how do you explain Dubinina's change of attitude after the Vizhay passage, Slobodin's skull fracture, Kivonishenko's leg burns, the state of Kolgomorova's fists....etc?

°°°°
В разделе "Мог ли Золотарев быть диверсантом?" темы 734.0 я, отвечая Жаку-Эмилю, прокомментировал то, что известно о военной жизни Золотарева во время Великой Отечественной войны и о том, какое влияние это могло оказать на его личность и поведение в гражданской жизни.

Для обсуждения теории о том, что "росомаха могла провонять палатку, и туристы спустились бы вниз, чтобы подождать, пока палатка проветрится", я бы предложил перейти в раздел, созданный для этой цели, т.е. "Обсуждение теорий > Росомаха > Росомаха", topic=390.0.

Я согласен с вашим объяснением, что росомаха внезапно сделала воздух внутри палатки не пригодным для дыхания и заставила всех участников похода поспешно покинуть палатку.

Росомаха - смелое и агрессивное животное, которое ничего не боится. Росомаха издалека учуяла запах пищи походников и смогла проникнуть внутрь палатки.

Я не до конца прочитал на сайте " http://1723.ru/ " (спасибо автоматическому переводчику DeepL) ваши объяснения с пещерой из твердого снега и ее обвалом, который бы раздавил 4-х из Дена: Золотарева, Дубинина, Тибо, Колеватова.

Я также согласен с тем, что хорошая объяснительная теория ДПИ должна быть способна правдоподобно реконструировать почти все, что о ней известно.

Как же вы объясните изменение отношения Дубининой после Вижайского перехода, перелом черепа Слободина, ожоги ног Кивонишенко, состояние кулаков Колгоморовой?

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General Discussion / Flashlight on top of tent
« Last post by Monty on September 13, 2021, 10:58:41 AM »
Was there not the odd observation that it was found on top of a significant amount of snow?
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